i am having a bad day here

apparently my alternator dropped dead ten minutes after i left the car service where i had my timing belt , pulies and tensioner replaced

the thing is..
i had "zero" symptoms. "zero" issues, my voltages were all normal "as i have a good car stereo installed and not long ago i checked all the volts"

my lights never blinked, car never ever required a second turn of the key to start, there has been "NO" symptoms or abnormalities that could relate to alternator failure.


so the question is... how likely do you think that an alternator will just drop dead " no short circuits, no issues, no smell, nothing !!!!!'

and how likely would you think that this can happen "ten minutes after leaving the workshop after maintenance"

Yes, alternators can stop working without any warning.

Sounds like you are trying very hard to blame the workshop! The battery would have been disconnected, and the alternator unbolted and moved out of the way. Not likely to go wrong, unless they damaged wiring or didn't connect it all back up properly.

Check the wiring on the alternator is in the right place, to see if all is plugged in and connected properly, if nothing is out of place go back to the workshop and tell them, see what they say. Otherwise, replace the alternator.

Yes, alternators can stop working without any warning.

Sounds like you are trying very hard to blame the workshop! The battery would have been disconnected, and the alternator unbolted and moved out of the way. Not likely to go wrong, unless they damaged wiring or didn't connect it all back up properly.

Check the wiring on the alternator is in the right place, to see if all is plugged in and connected properly, if nothing is out of place go back to the workshop and tell them, see what they say. Otherwise, replace the alternator.
i am not trying "hard" to blame anyone.. but the situation suggests the possibility.
my car is a "mint" magna... barely over 130k kms. "genuine" the odds of an alternator failing bang... is very very low.. the odds that particular "bang" after ten mins leaving the shop.. ? you tell me

i tried to check all the wiring that i could.. i called racq and asked them to inspect..
they told me my alternator wasnt producing "enough voltage" not that its fried or charred or exploded..
my logic suggests me that its impossible.
any wear on brushes or anything else that would "reduce" the efficiency wouldnt just happen in a minute..

I would say follow Occam's Razor, if something has just been done involving the alternator, that is the first place you should look.

Usually works, but occasionally there are just coincidences.
Like last Christmas, I had the fuel tank and lines replaced in my boat, then the engine started playing up immediately after I got it back, I focused all my attention on the tank, sender and lines, in the end it turned out the fuel pump on the engine itself had crapped out.

Reasonably likely. I was working on a car, replacing an alternator actually and one rear brake caliper started leaking. No warning, just drip, drip, drip of brake fluid. I know it wasn't leaking before as there was absolutely no evidence at all. It wasn't washed prior or anything like that to disguise it. We didn't have parts for it and couldn't even give them the car back.
A few times I have seen this stuff over the years. It is bizarre and I cannot explain it except correlation doesn't imply causation. Trying to explain that to a Service Manager who is out for blood because the customer gave them a rev up for something you apparently just did is what I truly hate about the motor industry. The pain gets handed down from the customer and sometimes it is no one's fault and you know no one believes you; it gets filed away to pulled out at a later date.

Apart from them welding something on your car with a MIG and not putting the spike thing on the battery, using your car to jump another and putting the jumpers on backward, this is about all the advice I can offer - sorry.

That's why I now rarely work on relatives cars. Got blamed for an unrelated problem once too often. Easy to do though, if you know nothing about cars.

ok here is the whole story
if you inspect my other threads you will see that first i was looking for a reliable mechanic, then i was inquiring about timing belts.

i had the first service done.. all good, but i was told that my timing belt is loose and needs to be replaced as a whole kit including the tensioner.

i was quoted 520 bucks for the kit ( no waterpump) and 340 bucks for labor
finding that too much, i asked around quotes, and local shops gave me 1: 360 bucks plus 80 bucks for water pump (wasnt included in the 520 quote by my mech) , 2: 450 bucks all kit including pump.

not being satisfied, i ordered 4 kits from USA, each costing me 210 bucks all USA made and delivered to my door.

now the thing is..
took the parts to my mech, and gave it all.. seems all good, a couple hours later he rings me and tells me that my timing belt and pullies are good, so there is no need to replace them.. only the tensioner needs to replace (belt due by time but not by kms)

i asked how much.. and quoted 240 bucks just to replace the tensioner.. as far as i understand you dont need to remove schit to replace the tensioner.. not being able to justify the cost i said replace the whole thing, but not the waterpump (since his quote with waterpump increased to 450 bucks from prior 340 claiming that alternator had to be removed that he didnt foresee before ""doesnt that thing need to be removed regardless?""

asked myself though... if you think it was the tensioner only that needs replacing, why did you ask me for the complete kit for 520 bucks to begin with ? (looks like a nice 100% added from the supplier) if whole kit needs replacing then why did you suggest that tensioner only will be good enough with a stupid high labour added.

i feel like.. i was thrown a bait.. i didnt bite it.. and hence comes the revenge or something.. i dunno.. my alternator was all fine.. maybe i'm wrong.. maybe not.. how it all proceeded makes me doubt.

i dunno guys.. if only one thing.. i am pisst, disappointed and angry.

ok here is the whole story
if you inspect my other threads you will see that first i was looking for a reliable mechanic, then i was inquiring about timing belts.

i had the first service done.. all good, but i was told that my timing belt is loose and needs to be replaced as a whole kit including the tensioner.

i was quoted 520 bucks for the kit ( no waterpump) and 340 bucks for labor
finding that too much, i asked around quotes, and local shops gave me 1: 360 bucks plus 80 bucks for water pump (wasnt included in the 520 quote by my mech) , 2: 450 bucks all kit including pump.

not being satisfied, i ordered 4 kits from USA, each costing me 210 bucks all USA made and delivered to my door.

now the thing is..
took the parts to my mech, and gave it all.. seems all good, a couple hours later he rings me and tells me that my timing belt and pullies are good, so there is no need to replace them.. only the tensioner needs to replace (belt due by time but not by kms)

i asked how much.. and quoted 240 bucks just to replace the tensioner.. as far as i understand you dont need to remove schit to replace the tensioner.. not being able to justify the cost i said replace the whole thing, but not the waterpump (since his quote with waterpump increased to 450 bucks from prior 340 claiming that alternator had to be removed that he didnt foresee before ""doesnt that thing need to be removed regardless?""

asked myself though... if you think it was the tensioner only that needs replacing, why did you ask me for the complete kit for 520 bucks to begin with ? (looks like a nice 100% added from the supplier) if whole kit needs replacing then why did you suggest that tensioner only will be good enough with a stupid high labour added.

i feel like.. i was thrown a bait.. i didnt bite it.. and hence comes the revenge or something.. i dunno.. my alternator was all fine.. even the copper wires in it were shiny and clean (doesnt look like that now ) maybe i'm wrong.. maybe not.. how it all proceeded makes me doubt.

i dunno guys.. if only one thing.. i am pisst, disappointed and angry.

DIY avoids all this sort of cr#p.

asked myself though... if you think it was the tensioner only that needs replacing, why did you ask me for the complete kit for 520 bucks to begin with ? (looks like a nice 100% added from the supplier) if whole kit needs replacing then why did you suggest that tensioner only will be good enough with a stupid high labour added.

i feel like.. i was thrown a bait.. i didnt bite it.. and hence comes the revenge or something.. i dunno.. my alternator was all fine.. even the copper wires in it were shiny and clean (doesnt look like that now ) maybe i'm wrong.. maybe not.. how it all proceeded makes me doubt.

i dunno guys.. if only one thing.. i am pisst, disappointed and angry.
Think about it. We all get angry and when this happens we tend to become a bit myopic, yeah?

It's like this, how can you know until it is all in pieces? I do take your point though.
Mechanic is thinking time, you're thinking cost. You want to save money, he wants to get you going. This simple disparity has evolved into suspicion.
I will say I think not doing the water pump is a potential false economy. If it dies in a year you'll be opening it up again when you could have done it now.
This quote on the whole kit business is not (in my view) a deliberate attempt to rip you off because you are getting all new parts. Sure they don't need replacing now that it has been disassembled - and paying for things you don't need is pointless, but on the other hand the mechanic is thinking the convenience of getting you moving and fitting everything new is not wasted money either - see where I'm coming from?

Having a relationship with a reputable mechanic is not to be underestimated. I'm a mechanic but my sister likes Volvos. She has this Volvo specialist mechanic that values her as a customer and they are friends. They have a professional relationship where he anticipates her wishes then gives her the options. Not all places are like this. Until you find somebody like this then really you need to manage the situation directly by clearly telling them what you want. For example, you could have said, "I want you to disassemble the front of the motor and show me the parts before I make a decision". Now not all places are happy with customers like this, particularly big service centres that service cars not older than about 4 years.

I reckon I can see what has happened with the alternator too. Its belt has been retensioned and the bearings may have been a bit ordinary and now the worn dusty brushes aren't touching the commutator/slip rings properly after retensioning (or something like that). An electrical load has gone on and bang.
Get a quote yourself on a reco and a secondhand alternator. If the reco is say around $220 and a secondhand is $120 get the new one. Sometimes secondhand alternators if they are really common can be pretty cheap <$80. When they're cheap like this though there usually isn't a warranty except if it is rooted when you put it on. To check a secondhand one spin the pulley. There should be NO rumble from the armature bearings. Should be perfectly smooth. If it has a rumble get them to find another one or go somewhere else. I always ring two and sometimes 3 wreckers for secondhand alternators if they aren't specialist (1 or 2 makes only) wreckers. This is because there are so many variations no wrecker can know all variations for all cars they wreck.

the reason i skipped the waterpump replacement was, the timing belt had been replaced at 92k kms (pump also replaced according to the mech) . car is at 133k kms, there is plenty of kms life in there, but timewise it has been 60 months. even though the belt was ok, i still had it replaced along with the tensioner and pullies.
actually tensioner was the problem, and i think they either used a dodgy one at previous replacement or didnt replace it at all. So in theory, the pump should have more durability against time and wouldnt be as effected as the belt (loosening or rubber corroding due to time), if the mechanic hadnt increased his quote 110 bucks to put in the new waterpump, i surely would have had it replaced.

the proper labor time to replace everything by Mitsubishi is 3.6 hours (waterpump, tensioner,belt, pullies) his initial quote was 4 hours.. fair enough. but why increase it to 5.5 hours saying the alternator needs to be removed to change the waterpump (does it?, or does it have to be removed to replace belts anyways?)
what i basically did was damage control, and do the most sensible thing without getting ripped off. If he had told me this in the beginning, i wouldnt get him do it to begin with... but, i was told this after i already left the car and he opened it up. so .. not much choice really

my main problem here, is
1-if only the tensioner was the problem, why was i asked to buy a complete kit for 520 bucks ? and not quoted or advised or offered the choice of replacing the tensioner only?
2-if, even though the tensioner was the main issue, but it was necessary or sensible to replace the whole thing and for that reason i was quoted the above, then why in the middle of repairs, i was called and advised i should only have the tensioner changed, and pay 2.5 hours of labor for that? (can anyone tell me how long does it take to replace a tensioner only in a 6g74?)
3- i expect a shop to stick with their quote in the beginning, not increase it half way thru... if you are a good mechanic, you should know how much time and what needs to be done for that particular job, and quote should not change half way, unless unforeseen issues occur, (say you noticed another part cracked, or worn, that couldnt have been seen in the beginning). what would you say if you get a bricklayer tell you that he can do the wall in 4 hours, but then in the middle of it.. say ,, sorry, its harder than i thought, i can only do this in 6 hours now.. so price increased... huh!!

all of above was already good enough to place my verdict even before car was done, and decide that he wasnt getting my business ever again..

the fact that my alternator failed ten mins after i left the shop.. stuck in traffic for over an hour, get towed home, (what if i didnt have racq?) well that was a big last drop in the glass that not just overflowed.. it knocked everything down.
is there a mistake done by shop? . i cannot know.. anger makes me more skeptic really.. not necessarily short sighted.
RACQ guy who came over to check the situation told me that the alternator "isnt producing enough power" . if it just failed dead .. burnt charred.. ok. lets say it was an issue.
but not producing enough power, i tend to think that wouldnt happen right away, i would notice issues (i am very very observant and sensitive to changes in the car) . what do you reckon?

ok update on this.
i called a mobile mechanic i knew before, on this public holiday time.
he came over and fixed it in half an hour.. aparently my alternator was dropped, and the socket distributor whatever thingy that cables connected was cracked.
it was loose and wasnt conducting properly.

he told me those parts are quite tough and not easy to break.

mech fault... you tell me..
now i am hearing faint ticks from my engine, and it makes a weird tikiktikti like a clock winding 2 seconds after i turn it off.
i am at the end of my patience and very tempted to publish the shop.. but i will wait till monday and give him a chance to explain.

http://imageshack.us/a/img715/1411/dsc05367uc.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img9/7923/dsc05368dx.jpg

Yes I've explained all this. Take it or leave it. I can't help it if my answer doesn't exactly align with the answer you want. Real life (read vehicle history and human factors) not "Standard Times" frequently interrupt perfection. Best if you DIY as recommended by MadMax.

Generally, doing a timing belt or anything under the cover, requires unbolting the alternator and moving it out of the way. Damage to the regulator must have happened then. Definitely see the mechanic and ask what happened, but be polite about it.

At least you now know why the alternator went off the air.

The reason why I'm suggesting doing things yourself, is that it gives you a great feeling of empowerment as you develop new skills, and it also avoids second guessing what a mechanic has done for, or to your car. The cost financially is trivial to the emotional cost in terms of the amount of frustration, mistrust and disappointment you have expressed in your posts. Your brain must be near meltdown.

Get the manual, read it, visualise yourself doing various jobs on the car, buy some tools and start with simple things like an oil and filter change.

Generally, doing a timing belt or anything under the cover, requires unbolting the alternator and moving it out of the way. Damage to the regulator must have happened then. Definitely see the mechanic and ask what happened, but be polite about it.

At least you now know why the alternator went off the air.

The reason why I'm suggesting doing things yourself, is that it gives you a great feeling of empowerment as you develop new skills, and it also avoids second guessing what a mechanic has done for, or to your car. The cost financially is trivial to the emotional cost in terms of the amount of frustration, mistrust and disappointment you have expressed in your posts. Your brain must be near meltdown.

Get the manual, read it, visualise yourself doing various jobs on the car, buy some tools and start with simple things like an oil and filter change.

i fully agree with you..

Not sure why you would want to remove the alternator to do a timing belt, I have never done this, just undo the bottom bolt and let it swing back hanging off the top bolt

Not sure why you would want to remove the alternator to do a timing belt, I have never done this, just undo the bottom bolt and let it swing back hanging off the top bolt

Yep. just swing it out of the way.
I can't see how that regulator got broken, unless the alternator was taken right out and dropped?

this is only getting worse...
so as far as i understand above, it is necessary to remove or bolt away the alternator to do any work on the timing belt. So his claim "oh now i increase the labor to 450 bucks coz i didnt know i had to remove the alternator to install the waterpump" is a lie. By doing, so he made me not have a necessary component replaced. okay... now listen to this

an hour ago, i was going to empty the boot, where i have the boxes for the "two" kits i supplied to the mechanic. I said if anything doesnt look proper in the first kit, you can use the part from the second kit.
so.. okay since i told him not to replace the waterpump, its in the box.

but to my extreme surprise i found all three of the seals in there unusued in their boxes. acdelco camshaft seal x2 and crankshaft seal x1. both are untouched. (in both of the kits)
i opened the boxes and checked inside whether he put back the used ones or something.. but no.. they are brand new untouched.

this means one thing to me... he did NOT replace these seals at all..

Take photo's of your kits in the boot.

http://imageshack.us/a/img14/6122/dsc05378x.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img254/6915/dsc05379q.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/5408/dsc05380l.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img40/8783/dsc05381o.jpg

untouched.. i left them in the trunk.

Bearing in mind that I've personally not replaced a timing belt on a 3rd Gen Magna so please forgive my ignorance if this is a dumb question, but is replacing the cam and crankshaft seals a standard operation when replacing the belt or tensioner or was your mechanic specifically asked to replace these seals? My point is, if replacing these seals is not necessary to replace the belt or tensioner, or is at least not considered 'standard practice' while delving into this end of the motor, just because they were included in the kit doesn't necessarily mean they should have been replaced as part of the quoted procedure.

in my opinion these seals should be replaced every time the timing belt kit needs replacing, these seals do go hard over time, and 100.000ks is long enough, also it is usually standard practice to replace these seals as they are not an easy component to get to. unfortunately, mechanics will not replace these seals unless they are leaking, or otherwise told to do so by the customer. most mechanics like to see you come back for a completely unrelated problem for a second bite of the cherry, and charge you another $500+ to do something they really should have done in the first place.

More reasons to stay away from mechanics. lo.
It's a matter of clear communication, if you tell a mechanic "Here is the kit, and I want everything in the kit to go on the car, and put the old bits back in the box" then he has clear idea of what to do.
Replacing cam seals - if they are not leaking, I don't touch them. My first cam belt job was caused by a new crank seal not seated correctly by a previous owner or mechanic. Why take the risk, it it isn't leaking?
At 200,000 km I'd replace the whole lot though.

For starters generalizing all mechanics are after a second bite is offensive and incorrect

It does depend on the mechanic, the chances of leaking seals in the first 200k is rare but does happen. Also you are lucky the mechanic used supplied parts, I personally only fit what I supply, if you supply parts I refuse to fit them as when there is an issue with what is often cheap and nasty stuff then the customer has the opinion of you fitted it you cover it.

What has happened here is wrong as he agreed to fit these parts and clearly did not.

The guy in question probably dislikes Magnas and did the job as quick as he could.
I'd chase him for some sort of compensation for the alternator he damaged, then find another mechanic.

For starters generalizing all mechanics are after a second bite is offensive and incorrect

It does depend on the mechanic, the chances of leaking seals in the first 200k is rare but does happen. Also you are lucky the mechanic used supplied parts, I personally only fit what I supply, if you supply parts I refuse to fit them as when there is an issue with what is often cheap and nasty stuff then the customer has the opinion of you fitted it you cover it.

What has happened here is wrong as he agreed to fit these parts and clearly did not.

i can understand where you're coming from. Some people go for the cheapest dodgiest parts, maybe even second hand.. and yes a mechanic is entitled to refuse using dodgy looking or generic parts where he sees fit.. as the person takes the responsibility for all road safety issues once he works on that engine.

in my case, these parts are all brand new, in original boxes, and probably the best non original parts available in the market, namely Gates kit. Gates belt, koyo pullies, gates tensioner, gates waterpump, acdelco (same as gates) seals..
i would doubt any mechanic in his right mind or intention would refuse to install these parts, it is practically impossible for him to find better parts from the place he got his own quote (dayco belt, and god knows what other parts) . Also, i dont mind a mechanic putting some profit on the parts he supplies.. well he as an industry person will of course get a better deal from the supplier compared to what i can, so ethically he can still give me the same price but make 10-20% out of it.. but retail price times two.. thats not ethic, and its attempt to rip off.


i am a sensible spender but not cheap.. i even supplied two exact kits for the mechanic to hand pick the best looking parts, in case if any of the parts are chipped or flawed during the freight.
i see absolutely no reason to not to replace those seals, while they are sitting in the box, where its as easy as replacing a light bulb once you have opened up everything in there..
why would i take the risk of a potential leakage in the future, when i dont know the full history of the vehicle, and there is no proper proof whether or not these have been replaced in the past timing kit replacement (actually i am not even 100% sure if the belt was replaced before at all... a mitsubishi timinig belt came out of the engine.. there is a hand marked circle in the service book on the timing belt replacement suggestion remark, but today when i inspected throughly, i couldnt find any note or stamp from that mechanic stating that it was done, possibly he just circled it up to show the past owner reminding in needs to be done )

as for the mechanics, i as a starter am extremely disappointed.. though i would sensibly avoid to put all people in the same basket.. but i tend to more and more believe that every industry people do develop their own habits of making their businesses more profitable..
take a watch to misterminute get a battery replaced, pay 18 bucks, and he will tell you that the watch needs a pressure test.. huh ???
your dentist will happily use the short lasting mortar filling instead of the proper light cured composite.. so you go back next year
your lawyer.. well.. we all know the reputation
during in one of my past jobs as a country assistant manager, i worked with trades people of all sorts in construction projects, where i witnessed people not doing their job, or doing it partially or taking shortcuts, and claiming its done, or its done to its best, or it cannot be done properly due to yada yada yada...

so do i generalize all mechs.. nope i dont. but it is a fact in pretty much every industry "including surgeons" that over the years doing certain things non idealistically becomes easier, and people's professional dignity wears thin.
i dont also fully encourage DIY, but it looks like its a pretty good damn idea to learn all you can about your car, even if you dont DIY, then you can inspect and understand what someone else is doing for me.

Yes, well . . . . you now have a cam belt of unknown age, seals that weren't replaced, damaged alternator, a major dose of disappointment and resentment, cash out of pocket, etc . . . .

A DIY job involves:
Reading the manual.
Gathering the tools and ordering the parts.
A quiet Sunday stripping the engine, examining the parts, installing the new parts, reassembling the engine.
Record what you have done in the service manual.
Drive away knowing it is a job well done.

Can't see why you are not seriously considering DIY, to be honest . . . . . I seriously need to know why you and other people go through all that degrading sh#t emotionally and financially, I really do.

But if DIY is asking too much of you, shop around for another mechanic.

Yes, well . . . . you now have a cam belt of unknown age, seals that weren't replaced, damaged alternator, a major dose of disappointment and resentment, cash out of pocket, etc . . . .

A DIY job involves:
Reading the manual.
Gathering the tools and ordering the parts.
A quiet Sunday stripping the engine, examining the parts, installing the new parts, reassembling the engine.
Record what you have done in the service manual.
Drive away knowing it is a job well done.

Can't see why you are not seriously considering DIY, to be honest . . . . . I seriously need to know why you and other people go through all that degrading sh#t emotionally and financially, I really do.

But if DIY is asking too much of you, shop around for another mechanic.

i surely am considering DIY, but i would be cautious about it depending on what part of the engine or car we re talking about.
i am very new to car engines.. though i am very DIY capable.. i would hesitate for instance to replace my brake pads right away, or dig into engine components right away.

you probably have years of experience mocking around with car engines, but overall a car is a safety concerning item, not only for the driver but also for other people on the road.
i surely will feel more confident in time, as i learn more about parts, engines, common issues and common fixes. (knowing myself , it wont take long)

but for the time being, i admit being an intelligent noob and take things slowly :)

I've got 40+ years experience working on mechanical stuff, so I'm not scared of ripping in.

However, I'm the only one in the family who has any inclination in that direction, so no hand holding & over the shoulder advice from anyone - all I know came from manuals.

As for safety . . . once you understand the manual procedures and what the different parts are supposed to do, who is more likely to work with motoring safety in mind - you or some mechanic who watches the clock and doesn't give a stuff about your car?

The logic of "I don't want to touch it because I never done this before" applies equally to doing up your shoe laces and riding a bike. First time is the hardest. lol

Basically, it's your choice though.

He could have replaced the seals, he may have just got them in himself though? Is that possible?

It does sound like the guy is trying to take you for a ride, Id be getting some legal advice.

I've got 40+ years experience working on mechanical stuff, so I'm not scared of ripping in.

However, I'm the only one in the family who has any inclination in that direction, so no hand holding & over the shoulder advice from anyone - all I know came from manuals.

As for safety . . . once you understand the manual procedures and what the different parts are supposed to do, who is more likely to work with motoring safety in mind - you or some mechanic who watches the clock and doesn't give a stuff about your car?

The logic of "I don't want to touch it because I never done this before" applies equally to doing up your shoe laces and riding a bike. First time is the hardest. lol

Basically, it's your choice though.

surely.. but you do fell off bike a number of times while you learn right :)
i cannot afford to fell of a bridge,, just in case i f'up something while i do it..
i am just being over cautious , kinda like a cat sniffing and slowly discovering a new toy at home. I do support your way, but i would also advise caution to people who just dive in their engines and do things in there.. it might be easy, but one fault can lead to god knows..
it might not be as hard as people claim it is, but usually its the wisdom that makes a person a good mechanic or technician not just raw knowledge.

we will get there.. expect me asking lots of questions on how to fix stuff in the future :)


He could have replaced the seals, he may have just got them in himself though? Is that possible?

It does sound like the guy is trying to take you for a ride, Id be getting some legal advice.

i honestly dont think any shop would do you a favor by installing their parts for free and not using your brand new parts in boxes. :)

Ok, heres my 2c.

To change a cam belt takes roughly 4 hours for a mechanic with plenty of experience.

Of that 4 hours, 3 hours would be used opening up the whole side of the engine to get at this stupidly placed belt and putting it all together. Once you have it all apart, it takes very little time to change the belt, you simply line up the marks with the new belt, tension it, turn the engine a few times and if it all lines up, bob's your uncle, you can put it all back together again. There's your final hour.

To replace both cam seals, the crank seal, every bloody seal, gasket and whatever takes very little time once you have it all open. To change the water pump takes very little time, to change the tensioners takes very little time.

If you were to go for the extra hour at the workshop, you could have your dodgy tensioner fixed, the 3 seals that were in the friggin boot, the water pump that was in the boot, just about everything you could possible replace. Then you wouldn't have to worry about it for another 3 years at least.

For this dickhead to spend half his working day opening up this engine and not replace any of the above, makes him just that. A dickhead. not only could he have the satisfaction of a job well done, but he would also have a happy customer who is happy to hand over fists of cash for his time. Shit, he could have got away with spending 8 hours under there and you still would have walked out of there with a smile on your face, come back to the forums and gloat about how much you got done, and everyone here would have showered you with praise for getting the whole job done right the first time.

Sack that mechanic, go somewhere else, get everything replaced properly, and report back.

Geez, I'm getting tired of hearing about all these shithouse mechanics ripping people off all the time.

/rant.

Ok, heres my 2c.
Of that 4 hours, 3 hours would be used opening up the whole side of the engine to get at this stupidly placed belt and putting it all together. Once you have it all apart, it takes very little time to change the belt, you simply line up the marks with the new belt, tension it, turn the engine a few times and if it all lines up, bob's your uncle, you can put it all back together again. There's your final hour.

To replace both cam seals, the crank seal, every bloody seal, gasket and whatever takes very little time once you have it all open. To change the water pump takes very little time, to change the tensioners takes very little time.

If you were to go for the extra hour at the workshop, you could have your dodgy tensioner fixed, the 3 seals that were in the friggin boot, the water pump that was in the boot, just about everything you could possible replace. Then you wouldn't have to worry about it for another 3 years at least.

For this dickhead to spend half his working day opening up this engine and not replace any of the above, makes him just that. A dickhead. not only could he have the satisfaction of a job well done, but he would also have a happy customer who is happy to hand over fists of cash for his time. Shit, he could have got away with spending 8 hours under there and you still would have walked out of there with a smile on your face, come back to the forums and gloat about how much you got done, and everyone here would have showered you with praise for getting the whole job done right the first time.
/rant.

precisely !!!

For starters generalizing all mechanics are after a second bite is offensive and incorrect


I said most mechanics

precisely !!!
not only that, i also took my wife's car to him last service along with mine , which had a pending repair on arm bushes or something like that, i was going to have him do that, even though his quote was a bit more than the Honda service centre. My niece's Audi that is just done last free service from the Audi centre was on the list as well, at next service.

add on that, if i was happy with this timing belt replacement, i was going to get three uni boys next door take all their cars to him. we talked about it, and i had said lets see how he goes with these repairs..

so hit petty ambition to rip me off a couple hundred bucks , not only cost him loss of three permanent customers, but also three potential others,
also he now has me who will not ever hesitate to advertise his crap service and unethical manners at any and every opportunity i get

its hard to understand how short sighted people can be... is it so very tempting to make a couple hundred easy bucks versus a long lasting and repetitive business .. can a person's dignity be so cheap ...

i was on the phone with racq legal advise department for about an hour.
they advised that i can take him to small claims for the alternator damage, but since i dont have anything officially noted on paper about all the other stuff, there isnt really much i can do. i was also told that if i am in doubt with the job done, i should have it pulled apart and inspected..
so this means that i will have to pay for all f&^%& job to be done all over again,,, probably have the seals replaced and water pump done as well. paid 360 for the job.. another 250 for the alternator regulator, now pay another 360 and probably god knows what other shit that will show itself due to whatever else..

fine... what to do.. either drive around with the bug in my guts constantly wondering whether its done properly or not..
or just let it go.. which i cant... even if i sell the car at some point, i cannot tell the buyer everything was done properly.. (yes i am an extinct and ancient greek statute of honesty)
its a lesson i had learnt back in the contracting days, "have everything on paper", but my habit to trust people keeps making me forget this one good principle.

What I would do is pull it all apart and see what has actually been done. The writing will still be on the belt, the seals will be supple and slightly powdery when you feel them. The water pump (if you asked for that to be replaced) will be shiny with a brand new gasket.

Because you aren't comfortable to DIY, take the car to Mitsubishi, or Kmart Tyre and Auto, or somewhere that is part of a big network of repairers, and have it all pulled apart, and everything re-done. Get the tensioners replaced, the seals replaced, the belt replaced, and get them to give you a report on what has been done. Kmart surprisingly do well at this. They will usually be very happy to run you through all of the components and how they are replaced. Mitsubishi will just get it done once and right.

Then you can sit back and relax knowing that everything under those covers has been attended to appropriately.

Just on the DIY point; I wish ppl would stop suggesting that like its the answer to life, the universe and everything.
I just don't have the necessary work space, unfortunately. My garage is tiny and I think I'd need a work bench of some type and a place to store the necessary tools. Maybe a couple of cabinets or something, but there is barely room to squeeze around the car.

It probably needs to be under cover and lockable too, so the driveway wouldn't do either, even if that was level, which it sure as heck isn't.

The other thing is time. I do have my day job and I guess, like mechanics, that often eats into my weekends too.

I'm also not too keen on learning on my car, which needs to be safe and reliable at all times. I think as we gain experience at doing something several times over we become good at it, but the first time we stuff up is the critical time. I won't even change brake pads for that reason alone.

I think DIY only really applies to mechanics themselves or people with some mechanical training and experience. For the rest of us thats why we have mechanics, and we need to be able to trust that they're properly trained and that their work is to a professional standard and that they do the right thing.

After reading this thread I'm a little disappointed that my mechanic didn't suggest replacing the water pump and seals when I had the 200k timing belt done on my KH :(

Not excusing this particular clown as clearly he has not done what he was asked to do however....

The issue these days is often the consumer. They want everything done cheaper and cheaper and want to do everything in the one place, instantly and for bugger all (not saying is the case with OP but is often the case)

This is why I am a MITSUBISHI specialist. IF a customer has say an astra, yes I will do an oil change on the car for them but if they need anything more I will refer them on as although I could do that job it will take me much longer to do the job properly and simply is not worth my time. Add to this many want jobs done after work or on Saturdays, they dont realise that a workshop employee also has a family to go home to. A few years back people accepted that they would need to let the boss know that in a weeks time they would be at work late and leave early to get the car done but these days people want the workshop to work around their hours so they dont have a couple of hours to make up later.

Often is the argument that "I can get xyz from rockauto much cheaper so you are ripping people off" when again is not the case. The parts in the USA are much cheaper, the typical trade discount is around the 15% mark however the average mark up from wholesaler to parts supplier can be as much as 300%, that is where the cost ends up. As an example I sell a timing belt kit for $147.50 which includes seals, pulleys and belt. The BEST trade price I can get from ANY of the larger parts places is around $200 mark if I am lucky with one parts place (large one been around for years) being nearly $290. I sell these parts for far less than trade as I am also a parts seller and deal with wholesale companies here in Oz. Yes I could add another $100 onto each of these kits but then again I sell so many I dont need to. Can not blame the workshop here at all. People dont mind spending $150 on a pair of jeans which probably cost Myer $20 and will be on sale in 3 months time for $50 but harp on and carry on when a workshop makes a whopping 20% if they are lucky.

In this case it is clear that either the workshop has no interest in these cars or has little experience. EVEN if you take out the radiator to make getting the alt out easier (which does not need to be done) that would add perhaps at best 20mins to the job.

Not really sure it is a matter of being ripped off than it is more a matter of the workshop simply not knowing what is involved in doing the job to start with.

Issue is then people tar all workshops with the same brush and refuse to get any professional work done, they think that dropping the oil every 6 months is a service and then when something really goes wrong the proverbial hits the fan and this argument starts all over again.

OP, I would go back to this place, give them a chance to explain, no doubt will be an interesting excuse but at least they have had a chance. Tell them politely your intention and then who knows, you may get a significant refund towards things like the Alternator and work claimed to have been doen which was not done which then means you can go elsewhere and try and get a better job done

Oh and to answer OP statement a few posts back, I dont care where the parts come from, I fit what I supply, I dont fit what others supply (exception to perhaps little parts like plugs etc) Is nothing to do with $$ made on the parts as my margins are very low on comparison but is down to the simple point of if that part does not perform to expectation then who is responsible for paying me to do the job over where clearly the workmanship was not an issue. Is easy to sit back here on a forum and state that the customer will pay or the parts manufacturer will pay but rarely if ever will happen

Just on the DIY point; I wish ppl would stop suggesting that like its the answer to life, the universe and everything.
I just don't have the necessary work space, unfortunately. My garage is tiny and I think I'd need a work bench of some type and a place to store the necessary tools. Maybe a couple of cabinets or something, but there is barely room to squeeze around the car.
It probably needs to be under cover and lockable too, so the driveway wouldn't do either, even if that was level, which it sure as heck isn't.
The other thing is time. I do have my day job and I guess, like mechanics, that often eats into my weekends too.


I work under the carport, nowhere nearby to store tools so they are either in the garden shed or in a box in the back of my car. Yes, a fur lined garage with shadow boards and storage would be great, but not essential.
As for time, I found that working on a car after working hours was a good way to get the work related stresses and cobwebs out of my system. I'd go to work the next day with a smile on my face. You'd be surprised how much you can get done in between work and sleep. lol

Anyhow, I've found a mechanic who knows how to read a manual, is good at gathering tools and parts, gives his labour for free, is around to check afterwards a job has been done properly, keeps records, and doesn't complain if a job needs redoing.

And my final word on DIY: Do it or not, I couldn't care less.
BUT if you use a mechanic, don't complain on this forum that the mechanic you used is too expensive labour wise/can't follow instructions/broke something/overcharges for parts/ can't read a manual/ uses your car to learn procedures on, etc. That story is repeated ad nauseam on this forum.

On the other hand, if you find a mechanic who is competent, spread the word!

I work under the carport, nowhere nearby to store tools so they are either in the garden shed or in a box in the back of my car. Yes, a fur lined garage with shadow boards and storage would be great, but not essential.
As for time, I found that working on a car after working hours was a good way to get the work related stresses and cobwebs out of my system. I'd go to work the next day with a smile on my face. You'd be surprised how much you can get done in between work and sleep. lol

Anyhow, I've found a mechanic who knows how to read a manual, is good at gathering tools and parts, gives his labour for free, is around to check afterwards a job has been done properly, keeps records, and doesn't complain if a job needs redoing.

And my final word on DIY: Do it or not, I couldn't care less.
BUT if you use a mechanic, don't complain on this forum that the mechanic you used is too expensive labour wise/can't follow instructions/broke something/overcharges for parts/ can't read a manual/ uses your car to learn procedures on, etc. That story is repeated ad nauseam on this forum.

On the other hand, if you find a mechanic who is competent, spread the word!

Well said Max. At my old place I had to stick my toolbox under my bed and the jackstands were lawn ornaments.

If you can't be afford a tool kit then you can't afford a mechanic. if you can't spare half a Saturday every 6 months figuring out some basic servicing then you work too much.

I only spend all my weekends on my car because I'm obsessed now.

Well said Max. At my old place I had to stick my toolbox under my bed and the jackstands were lawn ornaments.

If you can't be afford a tool kit then you can't afford a mechanic. if you can't spare half a Saturday every 6 months figuring out some basic servicing then you work too much.

I only spend all my weekends on my car because I'm obsessed now.

Something rewarding always looks obsessive to other people. lol
I always point out to my wife that it's not OCD, as it results in something positive. lol She still doesn't get it, after 25 years. *sigh*

ok... update on this,
i went to see him an hour ago, and as soon as he saw the cracked regulator first thing he asked me was "what do i owe you".
he remembers dropping it but caught half way, at that stage the regulator must have hit some other part or something.

he was very sorry about it, and he seemed very genuine .

now i feel bad because i winded up myself so much over the week.. in a way it was unlucky for both of us that i had the time to go circles in anger during the long weekend while he was away.

i am still a bit upset about the quote changes and other stuff, but seeing him honest about the alternator right away , eased up my mind about the quality of the work done.

he said he didnt replace the seals, coz the ones in there were good and replaced at last kit change.. well.. i would still prefer he had asked me about it, and put the new good ones on regardless, but i guess this isnt a critical matter now.

i guess this is a good experience for myself, to take things a bit easier, dont get too emotional, but on the other hand talk more with the mechanic and clarify what will be done and how will be done.

Thats a good result.

Good result. At least you got your money back and gained (some) trust back in your mechanic.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that this thread really needs to die....

I do agree.. dont mind thread gone if mods see fit