Hi all,

As the title suggests I'd interested in how owners here have reduced brake fade? Information on this seems to be varied. I've heard that slotted and/or drilled rotors can help, bigger brakes, or better fluid. Hoping to hear some first hand experience.

I've got a standard 3rd gen brake setup with QFM HPX pads and a simple set of RDA rotors all round. Fluid was flushed and replaced around 2000kms ago with Super DOT4 fluid.
Braking distance and pedal feel is fine, but when I start using the brakes more heavily and repeatedly like on a track day I get brake fade and the pedal gets very soft and I have very little braking.

What would be an affordable way to reduce the brade fade?

Thanks for your input!

Most run of the mill cars have brakes that are more than adequate for street use, but fade badly when you hammer them.
All of your suggestions - bigger brakes, better discs, high performance pads would help. But then street performance with cold pads may be compromised.
No simple or cheap fix. Maybe look at ducting more cold air to the front brakes?

EDIT: Slotted rotors are supposed to help.
When discs do this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img441/4264/aponf1.jpg

the slots are supposed to allow the gas from the friction surface on the pads to escape when really hot, thus improving friction and reducing brake fade. Don't know if it works in practice.

Most run of the mill cars have brakes that are more than adequate for street use, but fade badly when you hammer them.
All of your suggestions - bigger brakes, better discs, high performance pads would help. But then street performance with cold pads may be compromised.

I do very much agree that the standard setup is great for everday street use, but my issue is regarding track days where within a few laps my brakes become useless and cuts my run on the track short.

I'm wondering which of the upgrades would be best. I could easily spend $500 buying bigger disks, brakes, pads etc but I don't feel like blowing 100's for minor or no improvement.

Try slotted rotors and higher performance pads first up.
Or have a 30 minute cool down session between 2 laps of the track?

My Exec had freakin' HORRENDOUS brake fade so I feel your pain. Quickest fix was to ditch the steelies and wheel covers for a set of alloy wheels. This produced the most dramatic improvement. I doubled this by replacing the brake fluid, which not only reduced fade but dramatically improved feel in the brake pedal.

I ran Ferado pads to, which IMHO are a good pad.... though they're VERY dusty. The AWD runs QFM pads and they're damn good.

I think brake fade is caused by 3 things and what I think the order of biggest effect is:

1) boiling brake fluid.
2) hot and ballooning brake lines
3) gasses released from the friction material

So some ways to tackle these issues?
1a) use brake fluid that has a higher boiling point
1b) is there some way to actively cool brake fluid? I guess a radiator isn't possible, but what about a heatsink or shield on the solid lines ???

2) replace brake lines with braided lines - the braid stops the rubber ballooning and that spongy brake pedal

3) different pads or slotted and even drilled rotors

Drawbacks:
1a) you can run dot5.1 fluid but it's more hydroscopic so you'd have to replace it frequently
1b) might not work, just an idea.

2) ensure selection of legal (ie: meet Aussie standards) lines

3) expense and drilled rotors have rumours of cracking. I chose slotted when discs needed replacing, I figure they make a little improvement when pushing it.

Try slotted rotors and higher performance pads first up.
Or have a 30 minute cool down session between 2 laps of the track?

Thanks. I'll look into slotted rotors. Thankfully they're pretty cheap for the magna's which is good. Probably will only do the fronts at this stage. Rear braking is not that important with a fwd car.

Of course I could just let the car settle - but wheres the fun in that :D lol
Also I'm finding brake fade when I legally drive on some mountain roads and rarely is there any space to pull over and let the brakes cool down.


My Exec had freakin' HORRENDOUS brake fade so I feel your pain. Quickest fix was to ditch the steelies and wheel covers for a set of alloy wheels. This produced the most dramatic improvement. I doubled this by replacing the brake fluid, which not only reduced fade but dramatically improved feel in the brake pedal.

I ran Ferado pads to, which IMHO are a good pad.... though they're VERY dusty. The AWD runs QFM pads and they're damn good.

It can get pretty bad. I do have 18" alloy wheels though with low profile low end performance tyres.

I've already replaced the brake fluid but it hasn't helped much. I did just use a $8 bottle of Castrol Super DOT4.

I haven't used Ferodo before. Have used Bendix CT's and they weren't very impressive at all. Lots of noise & dust and not great stopping power. QFM HPX's lock up the brakes quicker than the CT's ever did. How do you compare the Ferodo to the QFM's?

Talking from ecperience, pads and fluid upgrades will make 80% of the difference. Special rotors and lines do the 20%

In saying that if you upgrade your pads and fluid to good stuff you need good rotors. Cheap ones like rda slotted or factory rotors will just warp.

Standard discs can warp, crack and disintegrate. lol The solid disc on hat setup just doesn't take well to massive heat input. Hence race cars use floating discs, allows for disc expansion without stressing things.

A nice Commodore disc. lol Yep, he was racing it.

http://www.rumblemotorsport.com/commodore/images/BrakeDisc-9248X.jpg

And a Skoda one.

http://www.pellonautocentre.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/skoda-discs2.jpg

I'd still go for the "two laps and a 30 minute cool down" option. lol Treat it like a race car, expect to maintain it like one. In short, things will break.

OR try this setup: http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57120

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j379/Jkapinos1/95865c6f.jpg

How do you compare the Ferodo to the QFM's?

Can't really compare sorry, the Ferado's were on an Exec and the QFM's are on the AWD. But I felt the Ferado's compared better than the Bendix on the Exec apart from the dust.

I took off the dust shield on the front brakes of the AWD, you could try that? Its probably not an ideal option but its something to try I guess. Did you completely flush the brake fluid?

Last resort - complete brake upgrade - 380 brakes?

Last resort - complete brake upgrade - 380 brakes?

No, they fade too. Go straight for the Evo X setup, Brembos and racing discs!

Go straight for the Evo X setup, Brembos and racing discs!

No, they fade too. Go loot the brakes off a Corvette ZR1!

:P

Brake fade is caused primarily by boiling brake fluid. Maybe silicone brake fluid will help, but the best method is to avoid letting it get that hot. How worn are your pads? If they are thin, there isn't much insulating material between the hot surface (disk) and the fluid, and you will get boiling fluid earlier. The best method would be to devise some ducting which blows air onto the caliper (and disk). Having wide tyres won't help either - you are restricting airflow to the disk even moer than normal.

There are a couple of types of brake fade that you will deal.

1. Pad fade is when the brake pedal is hard and the car won't pull up. Cure is a higher temp rated pad material.

2. Fluid fade is when the brake pedal sinks due to fluid boil. Cure is a higher temp rated fluid.

3. Pade knock off is when the brake pedal is low after some turns before a brale application. Cure is change the worn wheel bearings. This is not a brake problem but it can cause you to think you have one.

I you are planning on track work, try getting some ducting to the front brakes remember they are doing about 80% of the work. Up grade your fluid to something like Castrol SRF, Valvoline VR1, Motul racing etc. I found the factory rotors that are old and seasoned with max marerial with a good finish with a light skim if needed are the best choice. A very open wheel desighn will also help.

As for upgrades I think the 380 fronts are good value if your on a budget. With a slight mod to the caliper braket C5 corvette pad can be used giving a good selection.

The EVO 5/9 front caliper and rotor bolt staight on too but that costs a bit more but with a massive pad selection.

Hope this helps, Cheers Dave

There are a couple of types of brake fade that you will deal.

1. Pad fade is when the brake pedal is hard and the car won't pull up. Cure is a higher temp rated pad material.

2. Fluid fade is when the brake pedal sinks due to fluid boil. Cure is a higher temp rated fluid.

3. Pade knock off is when the brake pedal is low after some turns before a brale application. Cure is change the worn wheel bearings. This is not a brake problem but it can cause you to think you have one.

I you are planning on track work, try getting some ducting to the front brakes remember they are doing about 80% of the work. Up grade your fluid to something like Castrol SRF, Valvoline VR1, Motul racing etc. I found the factory rotors that are old and seasoned with max marerial with a good finish with a light skim if needed are the best choice. A very open wheel desighn will also help.

As for upgrades I think the 380 fronts are good value if your on a budget. With a slight mod to the caliper braket C5 corvette pad can be used giving a good selection.

The EVO 5/9 front caliper and rotor bolt staight on too but that costs a bit more but with a massive pad selection.

Hope this helps, Cheers Dave

I think it's fair to say Dave is the smartest man in this thread.

Thanks for sharing Dave! Awesome information.

As we all know, heat is the enemy. You have to improve the following two areas:

Heat resilience
heat removal

Brake fluid should be changed for compatible DOT5.1, Motul RBF660 for example will resist boiling way before the paint peels off the calipers. I run similar in mine.

Braided brake lines will improve pedal feel and dont have problems that rubber lines have like expanding under high pressure

Rotors - you want something which is heat-treated like the club spec DBA rotors. These are suitable for trackwork as they have a high carbon content.

Pads. Arguably the biggest point of contention when talking about fade. When a pad gets too hot, the material fails and creates a glaze between the pad and rotor which ruins feel and also affects contact. A pad with a high resilience to heat such as the QFM A1RM means you have great friction at high temps but also good feel and bite at cold temps.

If possible, a pad like Ferodo DS2500 is best, fantastic track pad that offers good cold bite as well as extreme resilience to heat

At the end of the day though, tyres are most important. Generally speaking road-spec tyres will overheat far before brakes overheat on a track. Even with brakes and pads on the limit, adhesion of grip with overheated tyres will be the biggest problem. My new tyres are ideal for fast road/track work that can reliably worked hard and not drop in performance

Evo 4 brakes with rda slotted rotors and rda extreme pads. Ive sent them to the pits of hell with no brake fade using motul fluid.

Rather than changing one component and hoping it will solve my issues just didnt cut it. I upgraded the lot and the benefits are certainly worthwhile for the money.

Thank you everyone for your super helpful responses and insight! Extra special thanks going to the Dave's for spending the time to fully explain the different types of brake fade and the cures for them

It seems I am experiencing fluid fade or a bit of pad knock off as the worst level of brake fade I get is when the pedal sinks to the floor. Although on some runs when im not mashing the brakes, I am finding the pedal lower than I expected

I've got decently spaced wheels so i believe its getting good airflow. I think right now the quickest and easiest fix before I start blowing 100s/1000s on a potentially unneeded brake upgrade, is to upgrade to high temp brake fluid. Where can I get some? I can't seem yo find it an any of my local 'auto stores' (slash fluffy dice and seat cover retailers).

If im still having problems I'll upgrade to the qfm ar1x pad and see how that goes. Pulling up isn't that big of a problem for me as is disappearing braking ability.

On a side note, has anyone ever installed braided lines on a magna? What kind of cost could that be to have made? (can do install myself).

Thanks again for the help everyone!!

I had braided lines made up, becuase i put on some Evo 4 calipers and disks, and the conections did not match the magnas. mine cost $80 to get made up, but they were not ADR approved. ADR aproved ones are a fair bit more.
if your getting that much fade, id suggest doing to EVO 4 caliper upgrade, cheap and a much better setup.
same as ralliart magna and AWD magna brakes

I just had 2 new lines made up at $100 each

Gsl rally sport I have found to be good.

TRW GP600 Dot 4 Racing Brake Fluid came highly recommended to me.
I bought some with A1RM pads but have not switched pads and fluid in yet.

I have the QFM A1RM pads in my AWD. Probably a huge overkill in a daily driver. That said, they are an excellent pad. I replaced the fluid at the same time with just "off the shelf" DOT4 brake fluid. No problems with fade on tight/twisty roads. Great stopping power, plenty of consistent/reliable feel at the pedal and practically no dust.

I have the QFM A1RM pads in my AWD. Probably a huge overkill in a daily driver. That said, they are an excellent pad. I replaced the fluid at the same time with just "off the shelf" DOT4 brake fluid. No problems with fade on tight/twisty roads. Great stopping power, plenty of consistent/reliable feel at the pedal and practically no dust.

Agreed, for daily street use only then the HPX pad is great, but for road use and track days the A1RM a great compromise I think.

I do alot of track days in my Magna, and use it as a daily driver. I run 380 Calipers, 380 TRW front rotors (from Repco), QFM A1RM brake pads on the front. Std brake lines with Castrol Response Super Dot 4 fluid. I find this setup just sufficient for 5 hot laps at time attack. Falcon AUIII BA BF pads will fit giving a good range of pads. Just need to grind a little off the inside. Its a 30 sec job

I don't recommend trying to do track days on stock magna front rotors/pads/calipers if your car is fast (mechanically modified) Might be ok for near stock. Stock rears would be ok

On the rear I have Ralliart calipers with original Ralliart rotors and Repco ThermoQuiet pads. I was running Repco ThermoQuiet on the front before i started doing track days but they disintegrated, and the anti-rattle backing material caught fire on first track day.

(Update 9/9/13 - I now run evo 9 front brembo's and braided evo 9 lines on the front. Direct bolt on after removing dust shield. No fade on the track. Magna ABS System, Booster ect works fine with the EVO Brakes)