My TS 2.6 seems to send bad vibrations through the car at idle when in drive, but my old TS v6 has no vibrations when in drive, is this common with the 2.6? what may cause this? engine mounts etc?

Are the vibrations less when idling in R?

Very common in the 2.6, I've been told its not worth the money and effort to fix it...
So just pretend you have a fancy euro car with a massage seat :P

My TS 2.6 seems to send bad vibrations through the car at idle when in drive, but my old TS v6 has no vibrations when in drive, is this common with the 2.6? what may cause this? engine mounts etc?

I had 2 TSs at one stage, a 2.6 manual and 3.0L auto - they both vibrated about the same, barely noticeable.
If it is not something obvious, like engine mounts, I'd do a compression check, easy to do on the 2.6L. Being a big piston 4 banger, any variation in compression between cylinders is obvious at idle and can cause vibration. If ok, I'd suspect balance shafts, maybe stretched chains? Depends on Km really.

I remember a commercial with a glass of water on the rocker cover of the running engine, just to show how well balanced a (new) engine was.

No idea about the 3.0L auto, but in the 2.6L autos the vibration is only when stopped while in D, if you put it in N it almost completely goes away, same with if you drive off, don't think its a balance issue.

I believe it is something to do with the engine mounts

Ahh the age old TR vibration, there are so many things it could be, engine mounts, auto trans, balancer (you can remove these with an eliminator kit) and the list goes on.

If you've got the time and money you can chase it around and replace everything to fix it.

Simple fix usually is just to slightly up the idle speed, won't completely stop the vibration, but will make it almost non-existent when warm.

Are the vibrations less when idling in R?

yes but only slightly

No idea about the 3.0L auto, but in the 2.6L autos the vibration is only when stopped while in D, if you put it in N it almost completely goes away, same with if you drive off, don't think its a balance issue.

I believe it is something to do with the engine mounts

Yes in Neutral theres hardly any vibrations but put it in drive and the whole car shakes, make you put it N at the lights, thanks for your reply, much appreciated

Its your engine mounts my back and front ones are shot and they do the same thing lol

Its your engine mounts my back and front ones are shot and they do the same thing lol

Cool thanks so much for you reply, i will check mine tomorrow, cheers

I checked my engine when idling in drive today @750 rpm and it vibrates bad, is this the balance shafts worn? the car has only done 150k but i don't know if its the original motor, cheers

Balance shafts don't wear.

Look at ignition timing, spark plug, plug leads, distributor cap, rotor arm, etc.

Ignition timing - the 2.6L is very touchy on this, needs to be set up by the book, too advanced will make it run rough at idle.

Balance shafts don't wear.

Look at ignition timing, spark plug, plug leads, distributor cap, rotor arm, etc.

Ignition timing - the 2.6L is very touchy on this, needs to be set up by the book, too advanced will make it run rough at idle.

Cool, thanks for the advice Max, it runs well, plenty of power so I haven't even given the timing a thought, I will check that, thanks for the tip, cheers

i was playing around with my car today and i see cracks in the center of the mount, in nutrual i dont feel a thing as soon as i slap it into drive or reverse it shakes my windows haha

i was playing around with my car today and i see cracks in the center of the mount, in nutrual i dont feel a thing as soon as i slap it into drive or reverse it shakes my windows haha

Thanks for the reply buddy, if you replace your engine mounts can you let me know if it fixed the problem? cheers

It is common for this issue to be blamed on broken engine mounts and certainly if the mounts are really bad they will contribute to it.

However, in my opinion, the most common cause of these symptoms is a broken, defective or badly adjusted accelerator pedal switch.

To quote from the factory service manual: "The accelerator switch is an on/off switch mounted on the accelerator pedal bracket. Its purpose is to signal the (transmission) control unit what position the pedal is in, i.e. released or depressed. The information signals the control unit to engage second gear with the vehicle stationary at idle, thus reducing idle vibrations and vehicle creep."

Many owners are unaware of the switch or its purpose, so it is usually neglected. The switch quite commonly fails with age.

The adjustment procedure is on page 13-1A-1 of the factory workshop manual but there's a better diagram of it on page 23-1-11, along with the above quote.

The following is an edited version of my post on the 1st Gen forum about fixing mine (they're almost identical in 1st and 2nd gens):

I found it impossible to work on in the car so I disconnected the throttle cable, cut the wires to the switch and took out the whole assembly. As you can see in the first pic, the adjustable stop misses the switch altogether. I thought this was because the bracket had been broken off and welded back on. In fact, that is the factory weld and the switch is supposed to have a spring steel lever that extends past the microswitch. The stop presses the lever which then presses the microswitch when the accelerator pedal is at rest. The lever had broken off and you can see the remnants of it in the pic. The switch itself was Ok so I made up a lever using a leaf from a feeler gauge and attached it with a small bolt, nut and solder. As you can see in the second pic, this solved the problem.

http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/ThrottleSwitch1.jpg
http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/ThrottleSwitch2.jpg

It is common for this issue to be blamed on broken engine mounts and certainly if the mounts are really bad they will contribute to it.

However, in my opinion, the most common cause of these symptoms is a broken, defective or badly adjusted accelerator pedal switch.

To quote from the factory service manual: "The accelerator switch is an on/off switch mounted on the accelerator pedal bracket. Its purpose is to signal the (transmission) control unit what position the pedal is in, i.e. released or depressed. The information signals the control unit to engage second gear with the vehicle stationary at idle, thus reducing idle vibrations and vehicle creep."

Many owners are unaware of the switch or its purpose, so it is usually neglected. The switch quite commonly fails with age.

The adjustment procedure is on page 13-1A-1 of the factory workshop manual but there's a better diagram of it on page 23-1-11, along with the above quote.

The following is an edited version of my post on the 1st Gen forum about fixing mine (they're almost identical in 1st and 2nd gens):

I found it impossible to work on in the car so I disconnected the throttle cable, cut the wires to the switch and took out the whole assembly. As you can see in the first pic, the adjustable stop misses the switch altogether. I thought this was because the bracket had been broken off and welded back on. In fact, that is the factory weld and the switch is supposed to have a spring steel lever that extends past the microswitch. The stop presses the lever which then presses the microswitch when the accelerator pedal is at rest. The lever had broken off and you can see the remnants of it in the pic. The switch itself was Ok so I made up a lever using a leaf from a feeler gauge and attached it with a small bolt, nut and solder. As you can see in the second pic, this solved the problem.

http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/ThrottleSwitch1.jpg
http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/ThrottleSwitch2.jpg

Thanks so much for going to all the trouble to upload photos and all the information you supplied, I'm keen to see if this is the problem with my car. Whats your car like when its idling in drive now?
cheers
Dean

Whats your car like when its idling in drive now?

It is bad right now but it is so long since I made the above repair that I had almost forgotten the cause of the vibration. I'm about to start on en EFI conversion (mine's a carby engine), so will be swapping the throttle cable and will attend to it then. I can assure you it does make a big difference. If it is not broken and only a matter of adjustment, it is an easy fix.

Just checked my car and it doesn't seem to have the accelerator pedal switch, my car is a 1995 TS maybe it was deleted

Possible but unlikely. There's even a diagnosis code for it in the TCU self-diagnosis system and the code applies to V6 models as well as the 2.6. I remember that it is quite difficult to find the switch. It is right up the top beyond the pedal itself and near where the throttle cable attaches. The pedal pushes on a rod called the accelerator arm. That, in turn, pushes a lever. The switch is at the top of that lever.

Possible but unlikely. There's even a diagnosis code for it in the TCU self-diagnosis system and the code applies to V6 models as well as the 2.6. I remember that it is quite difficult to find the switch. It is right up the top beyond the pedal itself and near where the throttle cable attaches. The pedal pushes on a rod called the accelerator arm. That, in turn, pushes a lever. The switch is at the top of that lever.

My car definitely doesn't have it, I printed out the picture you uploaded of yours and mine is totally different, I took the picture of yours out to my car and had a torch and had a good look but its all different, i will take a photo tomorrow and upload it to show you, maybe the 2.6 EFI's didn't have it. cheers

My pictures show the close-up detail but are no help in showing where it goes. Unfotunately I no longer have the original uncropped photos. I'm sure you are not looking high enough up. EFI and carby both have it (auto trans only of course). Here's a diagram from the manual:
http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/BRACKET.JPG

The part in my pictures corresponds to the "accelerator arm bracket" (part no. 6 in the diagram) plus the piece indicated by the red arrow. The hook at the top of the latter piece where the accekerator cable attaches is at top left of my first photo. The diagram is an exploded view and it is difficult to comprehend how it all fits together. However the accelerator arm bracket and the return spring slide onto the axle formed by the end of the accelerator arm (to the right of them in the diagram) so that the top of the bracket ends up behind the part indicated by the arrow.

The easiest way to find the switch is to follow the accelerator cable to where it attaches to the hook. You have to be a contortionist to get at it. I think I was lying updide down with my head in the footwell.

Second Gen EFI equipped cars have that switch at the other end of the throttle cable. TPS. Throttle position sensor.

Second Gen EFI equipped cars have that switch at the other end of the throttle cable. TPS. Throttle position sensor.

Thanks Max

The diagram is from the Second Gen manual, page 13-1A-2.

I just walked outside and confirmed that my EFI car (1st gen TP) has the switch. In fact it is not hard to see if you know where to look and what it looks like. I had to use a torch and lean right in with my head in the footwell, then look straight up under the dash, following the line of the accelerator arm and then the bracket above it, all the way up. The blue wire to the switch stands out.

I just took a photo of my TS to show it doesn't have the APS but a KR Verada that I use for parts does have it. I have a Gregorys manual for the TR/TS V6 and it says only the KR Verada is fitted with the accelerator pedal switch and I have a Gregorys for the TR/TS 4 Cylinder models and it shows the switch in the automatic transmission section. I have the photo I just took but I'm not sure how to upload it, cheers

I think I worked out how to upload photos, here goes a shot of my TS without the APS

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/Deano671/accelerator_zpsa758ad47.jpg

The diagram is from the Second Gen manual, page 13-1A-2. The TPS is something entirely different and I am more than familar with it. It is a variable resistor, not a switch and is on both carby and efi 1st and 2nd gens. So is the accelerator pedal switch. I just walked outside and confirmed that my EFI car also has it. In fact it is not hard to see if you know where to look and what it looks like. I had to use a torch and lean right in with my head in the footwell, then look straight up under the dash, following the line of the accelerator arm and then the bracket above it, all the way up. The blue wire to the switch stands out. At a guess, I'd say it is 40 to 50 cm above the pedal itself. As I said before, find the point where the throttle cable attaches and then you can't miss it. If you don't see it, you're not looking high enough.

lol "SECTION 1A - CARBURETTOR FUEL SYSTEM" is the title of the manual section 13-1A.

Think about it, the title is a dead giveaway. If you don't see that switch, it's because its only found on carby equipped cars, not EFI.

As for the TPS on an EFI car, it has both a closed throttle switch and a variable resistor. Read the adjustment procedure for the TPS and it will become clear. See 13-2-6

NOT trying to embarass anyone, just posting for clarification.

Anyhow - blaming that switch for the car not selecting 2nd gear when stationary and causing engine vibrations, is a long stretch. Look elsewhere for problems. (Wouldn't hurt to set the TPS up as per manual though.)

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/Deano671/accelerator_zpsa758ad47.jpg

That's how my two TSs looked too, just a rod with a straight pull on the throttle cable. Been under the dash of them often enough to know (upside down on the driver's seat, on my back, head under the dash - most uncomfortable. lol)

To include pictures here, you have to upload them to somewhere on the internet, such as your web site, then click "insert image" and enter the url.

I will edit my previous post because apparently the 2nd gen efi tps includes a switch whereas the carby tps doesn't and neither do the 1st gens, whether efi or carby. So MadMax is right and in your case the switch (called the idle switch) is incorporated in your TPS.

If not working correctly, that idle switch could still be the cause of the vibration, so my original post still applies in principle except that the details concerning the accelerator pedal switch and its repair should refer only to carby model 2nd gens.

Carby TPS? No such thing, that is why that switch is on the cabin end of the throttle cable.

Sorry to rain on your parade a second time.

As for the vibration:
(1) Check idle speed and ignition timing. The engine is touchy on both. Up the idle, a 100 rpm increase in idle speed can make all the difference. Normal hot idle is around 750 rpm.
(2) Visually check engine mounts.
(3) Check plugs, plug leads, distributor, rotor arm.
(4) Compression test.

Carby TPS? No such thing, that is why that switch is on the cabin end of the throttle cable.

Sorry to rain on your parade a second time.

As for the vibration:
(1) Check idle speed and ignition timing. The engine is touchy on both. Up the idle, a 100 rpm increase in idle speed can make all the difference. Normal hot idle is around 750 rpm.
(2) Visually check engine mounts.
(3) Check plugs, plug leads, distributor, rotor arm.
(4) Compression test.

Ok I have just been outside stuffing around with the car, I pulled the plug of the TPS and cleaned the connection, made no difference, I had the car idling in neutral and then put into drive and the vibration wasn't too bad but I put my foot on the accelerator quickly to bring the revs up to about 1300, it was just a quick jab on the accelerator still in drive then revs went back to about 800 but the car was vibrating badly, so I put it into neutral again and then back into drive and all is ok until I give it a bit of a rev and then the vibration started again, hope this makes sense? thanks for all your help guys

Sounds like an ignition problem, something breaking down under load. Try new plugs and leads. Got a spare ignition coil and power transistor to try on the car?

lol "SECTION 1A - CARBURETTOR FUEL SYSTEM" is the title of the manual section 13-1A.

Think about it, the title is a dead giveaway. If you don't see that switch, it's because its only found on carby equipped cars, not EFI.

As for the TPS on an EFI car, it has both a closed throttle switch and a variable resistor. Read the adjustment procedure for the TPS and it will become clear. See 13-2-6

NOT trying to embarass anyone, just posting for clarification.

Sorry, I was posting at the same time as you - just took longer. The reason I didn't see the chapter title is that I was doing searches through the pdf on the words "accelerator pedal" and "accelerator switch". The search goes straight to the page, so one doesn't get to see the chapter title without scrolling back through a heap of pages. The switch and a diagram are also shown under the transmission section with no mention that they apply exclusively either to carby or efi - and that is quite correct because, as Deano mentioned, the switch is present on the KR Verada and none of those were carby.


Anyhow - blaming that switch for the car not selecting 2nd gear when stationary and causing engine vibrations, is a long stretch. Look elsewhere for problems. (Wouldn't hurt to set the TPS up as per manual though.)

I don't agree with the above. That's the whole purpose of the switch. If it isn't working, the vibration will definitely be greater at idle in drive. The same will apply to the one incorporated in the later tps.

From the manual: "The accelerator switch is an on/off switch mounted on the accelerator pedal bracket. Its purpose is to signal the (transmission) control unit what position the pedal is in, i.e. released or depressed. The information signals the control unit to engage second gear with the vehicle stationary at idle, thus reducing idle vibrations and vehicle creep."

I've actually done the repair and experienced the result. Have you?

Sounds like an ignition problem, something breaking down under load. Try new plugs and leads. Got a spare ignition coil and power transistor to try on the car?

Its not to bad idling in drive until I give it a bit of a rev and that causes it to start vibrating, so what I'm saying idling in neutral then going into drive its ok untill I hit the throttle then its rough until I go into neutral again

It runs great flys up hills pretty good no sign of a lack of power of missing at all. I'm just done a video I will upload so you can check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxAydGaROGc

Carby TPS? No such thing, that is why that switch is on the cabin end of the throttle cable.

Sorry to rain on your parade a second time.

There is a TPS on every auto trans carby. There is none on manual trans carbies but we're talking autos here: "Bad viibrations in drive at idle 2.6" How do you think the TCU on carby engined autos gets throttle information to judge shift points? I've spent enough time trying to adjust mine (it's even harder to get at the adjusting screws than the efi one).

I also have to disconnect it every time I take the carby off and disassemble it, which has been every other week lately, so don't tell me that there isn't one. It is item no. 30 near the bottom of the page in the exploded view of the carburettor, Fig 21 in the chapter we were just talking about, at page 13 - 1A - 9.

Its not to bad idling in drive until I give it a bit of a rev and that causes it to start vibrating, so what I'm saying idling in neutral then going into drive its ok untill I hit the throttle then its rough until I go into neutral again

The 2.6 will always vibrate more in drive than in neutral even if the switch (either one) is working and the tcu is selecting 2nd gear at idle. However it will vibrate less if it is working than if it isn't.

What you say makes sense and seems to indicate that it is working. If you touch the throttle, you open the switch contact. That would cause the TCU to put the trans in 1st instead of second which would increase vibration slightly.

By the way, your video is apparently marked "private" as it requires a log-in.

The 2.6 will always vibrate more in drive than in neutral even if the switch (either one) is working and the tcu is selecting 2nd gear at idle. However it will vibrate less if it is working than if it isn't.

What you say makes sense and seems to indicate that it is working. If you touch the throttle, you open the switch contact. That would cause the TCU to put the trans in 1st instead of second whidh would increase the vibration slightly.

Ok cool, thanks makes sense, when I stop at lights or whatever I will just chuck it into neutral, I use to have a TP Elite years ago and I use put it in neutral if I was stopped at the lights for too long, cheers

There is a TPS on every auto trans carby.
It is item no. 30 near the bottom of the page in the exploded view of the carburettor, Fig 21 in the chapter we were just talking about, at page 13 - 1A - 9.

Yep, you are right! Cute little TPS hidden on the throttle shaft!

Anyhow, after spending about 10 years struggling with carby Mitsus to get them running somewhere near right, I breathed a sigh of relief when the cars in the driveway were all EFI. lol
Never again!
So, I hope DeanoTS gets it sorted. But I'm out of here!

Yes, I need to get out of here too as I'm about to start getting the efi bits off the donor car for the efi conversion. My first Magna was a carby TM, bought new, and I had no trouble with it for the 13 years I owned it.. The one I have now was ok until carbon granules got loose in the system. Since then, it has been a nightmare and I'm looking forward to being rid of the carby.

Yes, I need to get out of here too as I'm about to start getting the efi bits off the donor car for the efi conversion. My first Magna was a carby TM, bought new, and I had no trouble with it for the 13 years I owned it.. The one I have now was ok until carbon granules got loose in the system. Since then, it has been a nightmare and I'm looking forward to being rid of the carby.

All the best with the conversion, what model are you converting to EFI? Cheers

Yes, I need to get out of here too as I'm about to start getting the efi bits off the donor car for the efi conversion. My first Magna was a carby TM, bought new, and I had no trouble with it for the 13 years I owned it.. The one I have now was ok until carbon granules got loose in the system. Since then, it has been a nightmare and I'm looking forward to being rid of the carby.

Glad you had no trouble with your TM, my first Magna was a TM I bought in 1992, was a Executive with 96,000 on the clock when I bought it, it gave me trouble with the auto and the heater core leaked, CV's wore out fast but it didn't put me off Magna's, I have had 1 TM, 1 TN, 2 TP Elites, 1 TR SE, 2 KR Verada XI's, 2 TS one Advance and one 4 cylinder Executive, and a KH Verada, I found the TM the least reliable, the KR Verada and TS the best quality, and the KH the most powerful, over all the second gens are my favourite Magna/Verada's

Also logged in and says private as well. Might have to alter a setting or something i would say. Vee

All the best with the conversion, what model are you converting to EFI? Cheers

Thanks. It is a TP sedan. There was heavy rain over the weekend so haven't been able to start. I have nowhere under cover to work so have to wait for the ground to dry out. More rain forecast for this weekend.

Glad you had no trouble with your TM.......................................over all the second gens are my favourite Magna/Verada's

Apart from a rear muffler and a rear engine mount, the only maintenance costs I ever had on the TM were regular service items like filters, oil etc. It had 136,000kms on it when crashed. When I first bought it, there was an issue with windscreen wipers falling off that was fixed with a recall and retrofit of a new wiper design. There was another recall to do with the carby - something about vapour lock problem on long hills, although I never experienced it myself. I didn't like the auto but had no problems with it except oil surge in roundabouts or s-bends occasionally causing lack of drive and the engine going up the scale. The TP auto is much better.

It is getting hard to find decent 1st gens in NSW so I'm considering 2nd gen. I'd go for efi 2.6 to maintain some parts compatibility with my existing cars which I'd keep for spares. At the price being asked for these, I'm thinking they might be a better proposition than proceeding with my efi conversion. On the other hand, perhaps better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Used-Cars/AdNumber=D536102473704
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Used-Cars/AdNumber=D5284202502364

Apart from a rear muffler and a rear engine mount, the only maintenance costs I ever had on the TM were regular service items like filters, oil etc. It had 136,000kms on it when crashed. When I first bought it, there was an issue with windscreen wipers falling off that was fixed with a recall and retrofit of a new wiper design. There was another recall to do with the carby - something about vapour lock problem on long hills, although I never experienced it myself. I didn't like the auto but had no problems with it except oil surge in roundabouts or s-bends occasionally causing lack of drive and the engine going up the scale. The TP auto is much better.

It is getting hard to find decent 1st gens in NSW so I'm considering 2nd gen. I'd go for efi 2.6 to maintain some parts compatibility with my existing cars which I'd keep for spares. At the price being asked for these, I'm thinking they might be a better proposition than proceeding with my efi conversion. On the other hand, perhaps better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Used-Cars/AdNumber=D536102473704
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Used-Cars/AdNumber=D5284202502364

I have had 4 first gen Magna's, good cars but the second gen are much better, they don't rust like the first gen, better 4 cylinder motor and the V6 in these is great, very smooth and good power, but if the valve stem seals are worn it will blow tons of smoke and they don't seem to like E10 Fuel much, my old KR Verada would develop a miss if the plugs were in there more than 15,000 K's, but a new set of plugs @$27 and it was fine again. If I was you I would go for KR/KS Verada for $1500, just let the engine idle for about 5 minutes when hot and give it a rev and see how much smoke it blows, the auto's in these are great but make sure smooth changes and not too much delay when going into drive. heres a Verada I seen, high K's but maybe ok http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/homebush/cars-vans-utes/1995-mitsubishi-verada-green-sedan/1021048617#

Thanks for the suggestions. My brother had a 2nd gen V6 that I drove for a while and the engine is certainly lovely and smooth. I've been avoiding the V6 because of the need for regular timing belt replacement. Problems with the 2.6 timing chain are not unknown but generally they go on forever. I'm not afraid of the valve stem seal issue. I replaced the valve stem seals on my TP wagon with only a couple of hours work and cost of about $36. It made a huge difference. The rear bank of the V6 is a bit harder to get at though. The other reason for sticking with the 2.6 is because I have two sets of spares on hand.

Thanks for the suggestions. My brother had a 2nd gen V6 that I drove for a while and the engine is certainly lovely and smooth. I've been avoiding the V6 because of the need for regular timing belt replacement. Problems with the 2.6 timing chain are not unknown but generally they go on forever. I'm not afraid of the valve stem seal issue. I replaced the valve stem seals on my TP wagon with only a couple of hours work and cost of about $36. It made a huge difference. The rear bank of the V6 is a bit harder to get at though. The other reason for sticking with the 2.6 is because I have two sets of spares on hand.

talking about 2.6 timing chain issues, I have a TS 2.6 and the timing chain rattles on it pretty bad but only when the motor is pretty hot, when I turn the motor off you can hear the chain slapping around, it was so long ago I had a first gen I don't remember any timing chain issues, have you replaced timing chains before? I have looked into it and it seems a pretty big job. I have replaced the timing belt on a v6 a couple of times, its a bit daunting at first but its not all that hard to do, I think its easier then replacing the chains on a 2.6, I have never done that but have looked into it and it seems a pretty big job. The belt on the V6 only needs to be replaced every 100,000 k's so not too often but depends on how much you drive.

I haven't needed to replace a timing chain. The chain on my sedan is a little noisy at start up. There's an adjuster but it is hard to get a spanner on it through the tiny opening. I remember adjusting it on my TM though, so it is not impossible. My wagon has done over 300k and the chain on it is still not noisy. Yes, it is a big job. I'm not sure I would attempt it unless I had no choice.

I have a 1992 2.6 4 banger bought new it used to idle rough in drive when stopped at lights and when at idle. I adjusted the idle up just a touch BUT the biggest cure was to go from E 10 ( pure garbage in a 2.6 ) to 98 Super premium gas, now NO rough idle and much better power and range, I have picked up over 70kl on full tank, ( from E 10 ) have more power more fun to drive, it is like I put in extra cylinders sure it costs more BUT believe me it is well worth it. I think E 10 should NEVER be put in any Magna, try Super premium run to less that 1/4 of a tank fill with Super premium lets us know the results. cheers Wazza