View Full Version : Ultimate Magna for the track.
Bibendum
15-09-2013, 10:08 PM
Hey all,
I'm going to start planning a Magna build for when I buy my next car, leaving my TL AWD open for mucking around with. I love the handling of the Magna, I feel the AWD drivetrain is great however I would love some more power.
I dream of having it race-prepped for both hillclimbs and Targa rallies. I want some advice in parts for the build. Requirements would be that parts can't be too pricey, must be durable, and relatively easy to source.
Current build is pretty stock. Here's what I want to do soon while it is still on the road.
H&M Headers with a Lukey VRX muffler exhaust.
Possibly 380 cams?
Strut brace (even though I don't know if AWD's need it as it feels pretty solid to begin with.
I feel like the stock ride hide and suspension travel is reasonable, I don't know if I would want the springs hardened for Targa rallies.
Future plans would be to strip out the interior. Full roll cage. Racing seats and harnesses. Better ECU or remap stock one to unleash some power. I really don't know about the transmission. I don't mind tiptronic to be honest now, it would be cool if it was a simple sequential stick with paddles added as a plus. 6 gears would be nice.
Anyway I might edit this OP to contain recommendations for you guys as I accumulate more information.
Red Valdez
16-09-2013, 04:54 AM
Please don't underestimate the importance of good suspension and rubber.
I would look at getting some custom made springs - a slight drop with an increased stiff rate. And some good shocks (Konis?) to match. Even if you were trying to keep the budget to the absolute minimum, some Dobinson springs with a slight drop would make the world of difference.
If you want more power you can't go past the 380 engine conversion. I see Chow posted some times of his 3.8l AWD to the AMC Facebook page recently, he managed to get his AWD into the 14s down the quarter mile, which is a bloody impressive accomplishment.
Madmagna
16-09-2013, 06:42 AM
If you are really serious about track / targa speak to Graham Bell about a 4.2 build, then speak to us about a Manual Conversion. That will sort out reliable power
Suspension, start from scratch in relation to dampers and springs, also make sure you get the correct wheel/tyre set up
Remember that if you want to track the car you will then not have a car that is the same to drive on the road. You either have one or the other, not both
HaydenVRX
16-09-2013, 12:32 PM
If you want a powerful car on the cheap an awd magna isnt going to be too helpful. Very heavy, automatic , 4wd, youre going to need to spend a good 4000 to make it any quicker then a manual fwd and thats if you keep it automatic which probably isnt ideal.
Bibendum
16-09-2013, 09:01 PM
I guess hillclimbs and Targa events would be my priority, so roads wouldn't be as nice as the track. I want to take my Magna for a drive on a witches hat course with plenty of run off, I feel it's handling is quite superb.
Victa Twin
16-09-2013, 09:12 PM
Yes all that and dry sump oiling. As soon as the braking and handling come up, the oil pressure light will start to come on during cornering and braking. No such thing as a cheap race car :). Loose as much weight as possible as it is the same as modifying the motor and it also helps stopping and turning too.
The stock pistons might not like the frequent high revs. The gudgeon pin piers in cast pistons don't have durability for racing. The change of direction at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke and beginning of the intake stroke tend to 'pull' the gudgeon pin from the piers in casties. Forged pistons easily resist this but it is beyond the scope of a stock piston with tight clearances to withstand this kind of cyclic abuse. Stock pistons still do an absolutely marvelous job; they work hot, cold, withstand some pinging, hot starts, idling, control oil consumption in all conditions, take some revs - so on and so forth. Forged racing pistons by comparison only have to do one thing and that is race. Also longer connecting rods help the piston dwell more at TDC (and BDC) in crankshaft degrees than do shorter rods despite identical stroke length. This aids volumetric efficiency which equals more power. If going this route then custom pistons and rods with about 12:1 compression will bring the power on. BTW Avgas is not really ideal as it is a dual octane rating fuel for rich and lean settings in low compression aircraft engines. 100/130 means resistance to detonation when lean of 100 octane and 130 when rich.
There is great potential in AWD Magnas but EVOs might have more go faster stuff and ultimately be cheaper by the time you thrash all the AWD Magna issues; capiche? AWD Magnas still make a great road car but!
Personally, I'd love to see a maxed out AWD magna!! I've never seen it done before so this would be very interesting & different.
As for engine mods, it's true that by the time you've spent money on cams, headwork ECU etc... you be better off just doing a 6G75 conversion with HM perry headers/Y Pipe & straight through rear muffler.
I went against a manual 6G75 equipped TH magna sedan at the drags on Saturday night and it left me for dead. 13.9 seconds down the 1/4 mile with the driver still sorting out traction at launch, and that was a stock 6G75 with SKR tune running on 98 octane fuel & fitted with a VRX style sports exhaust. Oh and he said that a higher flow fuel pump like a Walbro or one out of the Lancer Evo helps.
If you are looking at doing targa or even track work, then a strut brace is a must have. On the street in everyday driving you won't really notice the benefits. It's only when you start to push the limits where the addition of a strut brace can make a big difference & yes I am talking from experience here. The strut brace effectively creats a box section for the front suspension which not only helps in rigidity, but also helps keep suspension geometry from transient shifting. Also look at investing in a larger diameter rear antiroll bar (but not the whiteline adjustable) that will help with ironing out understeer. Personally, I'd look at fully adjustable coilovers like KIDO for example & also look at all of your bushes, ball joints tie rod ends etc...
As for transmissions, if you are sticking with the INVECSII, then an updated wavespring washer replacement, welded nuts for the planetary gears, an in-line transmission cooler with an external filter should round out the essential tranny mods. But you are very fortunate that Madmagna can do manual conversions for the AWD magnas!! (An Australian first I believe).
A heavier duty radiator is something you might want to look into as well as I'm not sure the standard cooling system would suffice and has been previously mentioned, I like the idea of dry sumping the motor also.
vvrr44
20-09-2013, 08:25 PM
Unless you really want to go AWD then you should consider that all the fast track magna's including the ones running in improved production class are fwd manual with 6g75 engine. This is the best combo to build a track car. Any advantage of AWD when coming out of corners is negated by the extra weight, and AWD is no benefit anywhere else on the track unless you have insane power
vvrr44
20-09-2013, 08:34 PM
I went against a manual 6G75 equipped TH magna sedan at the drags on Saturday night and it left me for dead. 13.9 seconds down the 1/4 mile with the driver still sorting out traction at launch, and that was a stock 6G75 with SKR tune running on 98 octane fuel & fitted with a VRX style sports exhaust. Oh and he said that a higher flow fuel pump like a Walbro or one out of the Lancer Evo helps.
I put that engine in for him last week. He ended up doing 13.790. His tune was done here in Brisbane (Not an SKR tune). He was running an Evo 9 fuel pump and modified y pipe and custom sports exhaust, and a heavy duty clutch but otherwise the car was standard. He even had stock suspension. It was running some road legal drag tires. It was a very good result.
I put that engine in for him last week. He ended up doing 13.790. His tune was done here in Brisbane (Not an SKR tune). He was running an Evo 9 fuel pump and modified y pipe and custom sports exhaust, and a heavy duty clutch but otherwise the car was standard. He even had stock suspension. It was running some road legal drag tires. It was a very good result.
13.79 - That's a great result for what it was, given that the humidity was around 80% & barometric pressure was quite low, that was an exceptional time!!. Stock suspension was quite funny as he came up to my car and pressed down on the suspension of mine which has stuff all movement, then he asked me to watch his car & he pressed down on his (from the back) & it was quite bouncy by comparison!! So yeah, a firmer set up (especially at the back) I think will really help with getting more traction onto the fronts for him for an even better time.
Unless you really want to go AWD then you should consider that all the fast track magna's including the ones running in improved production class are fwd manual with 6g75 engine. This is the best combo to build a track car. Any advantage of AWD when coming out of corners is negated by the extra weight, and AWD is no benefit anywhere else on the track unless you have insane power
Pretty sure Bibendum wants this for hill climbs and Targa rally where the AWD system will definitley be an advantage, given some of the terrain that has to be covered.
I'm pretty certain that those track magnas you are talking about would at the least have a Ralliart front diff or even a Quaife/Wavetrack front LSD. Just saying, as for the life of me I couldn't see an open wheeler FWD magna keeping up with an AWD around the corners. (I've owned both FWD & AWD magnas - Though neither of them are track specials)
HaydenVRX
23-09-2013, 10:54 AM
Luckily nobody with a fwd magna would skimp on an lsd if they were doing track lol
Luckily nobody with a fwd magna would skimp on an lsd if they were doing track lol
I don't know Hayden, some of the people round my neck of the woods, it wouldn't suprise me if they did :-0
Bibendum
23-09-2013, 10:54 PM
After looking at cars on speedhunters.com I really got excited at the prospect of building an absolute beast. I think I would like to start small and just progressively build it up. However getting advice on easy straight forward performance upgrades will help at the start.
Hi Bibendum, for a first performance upgrade, get the exhaust done regardles, whether you keep the 3.5Ltr motor or swap for a 3.8Ltr motor.
HM Perry headers & matching Y-pipe and a straight through rear muffler are a must have as the stock AWD system is quite restrictive especially in the stock Y pipe & rear baffled muffler. This is the best bang for your buck performance upgrade you can do as it will free up around 7kw or more from the stock 3.5Ltr. The rest of the AWD exhaust system is good as it is a 2.5" mandrel bent from the factory. Some members say that a high flow cat makes a difference, but in the AWD model, the stock unit already flows well. I would only bother with a high flow cat if your car has done over 150000kms. If you do get one, get a high flow metal cat 200CPI.
Seriously though, beyond an extensive service replacing all fluids, new iridium plugs & new premium ignition leads, Ryco paper air filter, fuel filter and a dyno tune, you could then progress to Ralliart/380cams, fidanza cam gears and an ecu reflash with another dyno tune.
Factory cold air intake already flows very well. A Ryco paper filter is all that's needed for the induction. Forget K&N panel filters (got one & makes not one iotta of difference to performance), POD filters (Unless sheilded from heat and partly concealed will made you lose power) and is a big spend considering that it won't give you any real power gains.
Anything beyond that really starts to get pricey as you'd be looking at things like full balance/blueprint rebuild of the block with forged components and or forced induction, extensive head work & machining, Plug & Play ECU's, intercoolers etc etc....
By that stage, you'd really be better off getting a 6G75 3.8 out of a Mitsubishi 380. Apart from being bigger, it has 10:1 compression ratio, same cams as the magna ralliart & the heads flow way better than anything you can get out of a 6G74 3.5ltr. For less than 2K fitted you really can't go past the 6G75s for the best performance for the dollar upgrade. Around 40% power increase & 30% torque increase from just a stock engine. Using this as base for further mods would really give you a weapon & personally that's what I'm saving my money for as the next upgrade.
ticker70
11-10-2013, 11:11 PM
Hi Folks....
slight swerve off topic.... but the Car that ran in the High 13's.... the tune that was done in Brisbane.... can anyone say who did it.... ?
Cheers,
Pug
Hi Folks....
slight swerve off topic.... but the Car that ran in the High 13's.... the tune that was done in Brisbane.... can anyone say who did it.... ?
Cheers,
Pug
8th & 9th comment on page 1 of this thread. Member name vvrr44 is the one who fitted the 6G75 in the "Dragna". Just flick him a PM.
jaimsey021
28-01-2014, 09:37 AM
4.2litre build, Graham Bell. Sounds powerful because Mitsi-Bits SA did a 4.0litre conversion on the 6G75 & got 270kw at the wheels. Could you give us more information? Does it work on Ralliart Magnas? Is it reliable? Whats his contact number?
From what I've heard & read, the stroker conversion & rebuild on the 6G75 bottom end is very expensive. I'm quite sure that the stroker crank that goes into the 6G75 block is not a direct fit in the 6G74.
Having said that, 270kw @ the wheels assuming N/A sounds very optimistic to say the least, as the articles I've read concerning stroker 6G75s were more like an additional 15-20kw at the wheels over a standard 6G75. Which would output more like 160-165RWKW in an AWD. Not shabby at all & the low end torque would be even more impressive, however, nowhere near 270KW at the wheels.
There would have been some additional headwork, exhaust, higher compression, higher flow injectors & higher capacity fuel pump, & some nifty cams etc... to get anywhere near 270KW at the wheels, unless they went forced induction like S/C or twin turbo set up which would be more believable as the back calculation would put flywheel KW assuming an AWD at around 320 - 330KW.
But honestly, why would anyone bother stroking a 6G74 when you can fit a good used low km 6G75 and have better performance out of the box than any stroked 6G74 for much less money?
jaimsey021
28-01-2014, 10:41 AM
From what I've heard & read, the stroker conversion on the 6G75 is very expensive. I'm quite sure that the stroker crank that goes into the 6G75 block is not a direct fit in the 6G74. But honestly, why would anyone bother stroking a 6G74 when you can fit a good used low km 6G75 and have better performance out of the box than any stroked G74 for much less money?
Mitsi-Bits SA said the pistons couldn't take it when they bored it out to 4.0litres but alot of work was required to get it working, they also stated they used Tighe camshafts that weren't compatable with the 6G75 instead of ones that were so wonder if it would be fine with different camshafts or the standard 6G75 ones, also it was reliable on the 3.8litre set up & power was at 240kw at the wheels instead of the bored out 4.0litres 270kw at the wheels. But I have a 6G75 in my car thats why I was asking & Mal at Mits-Fix recommended the 4.2litre conversion done through Graham Bell.
khn47
28-01-2014, 11:36 AM
Makes me wonder if I could get my 6g72 bored out to 3.5 litre :) already got the cams and pistons upgraded :)
@ Jaimsey021 - I'm suprised that Mal from Mitsfix didn't give you Graham Bell's number. I'm not sure if you are talking about a G74 or 75 now, but yeah, Boring out a G75 is mission almost impossible as there's not a great deal of iron between the bores. Certainly not recommended.
Makes me wonder if I could get my 6g72 bored out to 3.5 litre :) already got the cams and pistons upgraded :)
If you have a 6G72, with the bore spacing being further apart & having a smaller crank you have the potential of more revs & more boost from a couple of snails. Many big HP Mitsubishi V6 applications have been based on a 6G72 for this reason. No Boring out needed.
jaimsey021
28-01-2014, 03:04 PM
@ Jaimsey021 - I'm suprised that Mal from Mitsfix didn't give you Graham Bell's number. I'm not sure if you are talking about a G74 or 75 now, but yeah, Boring out a G75 is mission almost impossible as there's not a great deal of iron between the bores. Certainly not recommended.
I was talking about the 6G75 the whole time as that was the motor that Mitsi Bits used as I specified to bore out to 4.0litres to get the 270kw figure at the wheels on the dyno as a NA that the pistons couldn't take & its the motor I have in my car that I put in my profile page, but the American Mitsubishi Eclipse owners are getting the 4.2litre conversion done & is proving popular from the 3.8 & Graham Bell is implementing it through the parts from America but I don't have his workshop number to ask about anymore on it. Any help much appreciated.
Where is Graham Bell situated? What city? If it is Brisbane or SE Qld I could probably track him down.
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