I am replacing the timing belt on my TH Magna 3.5 L, I'm at the stage where the old belt can come off, but when I line up the timing marks on the camshaft sprockets, the mark on the crankshaft gear is 2 teeth further forward than the timing mark on the motor. I have turned the motor over a few times but still the same. This is the first time I have done a timing belt ,but going by the manual they should all line up, is this right? The motor seemed to run all right like this, just want to make sure first. And I want to replace the crankshaft seal, is the gear on the crankshaft hard to get off, or do I need a special tool? Thanks in advance.

To be honest if you are asking such questions you really should NOT be doing timing belts at all.

Yes they should line up, no they will not have moved on their own, yes while turning the motor you may have caused a loose belt to slip and finally no the motor will NOT have run like this at all.

You need to get everything back into line up.

Double check you are reading the timing parks correctly.

Use this
http://www.club3g.com/forum/maintenance/118492-how-change-timing-belt-v6-pictures.html

While that write up is "ok" there are a few areas I would never recommend someone do, things like allowing the pre tensioner to be let go and then placing in a vice to reset, lock it off before the belt is removed and this also saves removing it from the car in the first place. Also removal of the alternator is not needed either. They remove the belt but the pulleys are still in place, how do they change the seals.

Holding he crank with a spanner on the chassis like that is simply stupid at best as well

Thanks for the link Rob,and I rechecked the markings tonight Max,and its definitely out, thanks for the reply .Now Madmagna, such questions, geez when you have a motor that definitely runs, (I drove it home from Preston to Campbellfield 2 weeks ago), and the belts still tight ,and the crank markings are 2 teeth out, I would have thought it was a reasonable question. Admittedly I am new to jap cars with timing belts but having worked on cars and bikes for over 30 years, I have not found getting to where I am with the timing belt replacement at the moment too bad. As for taking the gear off the crankshaft , I thought maybe there's a special so it doesn't get damaged was a reasonable question. Maybe when I bought the timing belt kit from Mits-Fix, you should have asked me if I did one before and not sold me the kit, just sell them to mechanic shops, then you wont have to answer people like me. Here's a couple of pics of one of the cam gears and the crank. http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/tomdelta/003.jpg (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/tomdelta/media/003.jpg.html)http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/tomdelta/004-1.jpg (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/tomdelta/media/004-1.jpg.html)

Welcome to my padded cell - I spent a whole day with this riddle - the belt tensoner when released seemed to always pull the cams out of alignment - my befuddled memory says that because the tensioner will pull the cams toward the rear of the car and the crank in the reverse direction you have to allow a few teeth short on the crank to align - OH - get it right soonish - my old car had terrible tappet rattle after WAY to many attemptes to get the timing right as an ignorant mechanic

Thanks for the link Rob,and I rechecked the markings tonight Max,and its definitely out, thanks for the reply .Now Madmagna, such questions, geez when you have a motor that definitely runs, (I drove it home from Preston to Campbellfield 2 weeks ago), and the belts still tight ,and the crank markings are 2 teeth out, I would have thought it was a reasonable question. Admittedly I am new to jap cars with timing belts but having worked on cars and bikes for over 30 years, I have not found getting to where I am with the timing belt replacement at the moment too bad. As for taking the gear off the crankshaft , I thought maybe there's a special so it doesn't get damaged was a reasonable question. Maybe when I bought the timing belt kit from Mits-Fix, you should have asked me if I did one before and not sold me the kit, just sell them to mechanic shops, then you wont have to answer people like me. Here's a couple of pics of one of the cam gears and the crank. http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/tomdelta/003.jpg (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/tomdelta/media/003.jpg.html)http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/tomdelta/004-1.jpg (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/tomdelta/media/004-1.jpg.html)

Really, the attitude......I tried to assist you, was simply stating fact and you react like this???? Dont take offense when you ask a question and a person who actually knows the answer gives you an answer and does not sugar coat that answer and wrap it in a few layers of cotton balls

There is no way in hell that motor ran and ran smoothly with the belt in that position. Why did I make the comments, because you have NOT stated you know what you are doing and so many try and do these jobs and end up with bent valves. Looking at the last pic even a monkey can see that the belt is not tight and that is just for starters, look to the right of the pic, the belt is sitting off the pulley as some clown has turned the motor over backwards and there is where the slack is in the belt.

I have seen many times before where people have turned a motor over manually and turned it backwards like you have clearly done here given the slack of the belt is on the wrong side of the pulley and the belt has slipped because it is too loose. Again with the position the cams are that far advanced there is no way in hell that this car drove in anywhere near a normal fashion if at all, I have seen them come in 1 tooth out and barely able to drive.

Oh and one more thing, Jap Cars, well last time I looked these cars and the motors were made in Adelaide :) Sorry mate is not just "jap" cars which have timing belts and even in older motors with gears or chains then principle of camshaft alignment is exactly the same, line up marks and then it all works

Little off topic, but while we are here, when it comes to turning the motor over manually its just a case of turning the harmonic balancer?? Is that the same method for setting TDC?

Pretty much but rotate in clockwise direction when facing pulley

Pretty much but rotate in clockwise direction when facing pulley

Haha I gathered that from your last post that it should only go one way LOL.

If it doesn't take too much to explain, when the manual says set piston no 2, to the top of the cylinder, how do you manage that? I have the Haynes manual and it say see Chapter 2 for the explanation and it didn't bloody give one LOL. I don't plan to do anything that requires it soon, im just more curious now.

Little off topic, but while we are here, when it comes to turning the motor over manually its just a case of turning the harmonic balancer?? Is that the same method for setting TDC?

The pulley/harmonic balancer has to come off to remove the plastic covers, but I always put it back on with the bolt to turn it over, using a spanner on the bolt itself. There is only a scroll pin keeping things lined up correctly, so turning it with force applied to the the bolt is safer than trying to turn by applying force to the actual pulley.

As above, only turn clockwise. This keeps the slack on the side of the hydraulic tensioner. Turning it anti-clockwise will push in the tensioner plunger and the belt will either pop one tooth over on the crank cog, or you have slack on the (normally) tensioned side of the belt and when you look at the timing marks you will go WTF! lol

Haha I gathered that from your last post that it should only go one way LOL.

If it doesn't take too much to explain, when the manual says set piston no 2, to the top of the cylinder, how do you manage that? I have the Haynes manual and it say see Chapter 2 for the explanation and it didn't bloody give one LOL. I don't plan to do anything that requires it soon, im just more curious now.

When do you need to set No. 2 to TDC? Usually you work off No. 1 being TDC, that's what the marks on the timing cover and pulley give you. Maybe a Typo? No.1 is rear bank, driver's side - maybe they think that is No. 2? (No. 2 is front bank, driver's side)

I apologise Madmagna for taking your reply the wrong way, you definitely know more about this than I do. Thanks for trying to help, and your right the principle is the same for all motors with belts or chains, it just threw me when I saw the marks out like that. Maybe I turned the motor over the wrong way , I turned the motor so it turned clockwise but when your facing the motor it's anti clockwise, which is a pain because the crankbolt wants loosen that way, maybe that's why the manual says use the special tool to turn it over. If any else is thinking of changing there timing belt themselves, get the hole kit with tensioner and pulleys, the tensioner pulley on mine was that stuffed it wouldn't turn anymore and the belt was just rubbing against it, instead of the pulley spinning. The kit I bought of Mits-fix comes with all that and looks good quality parts.

How bad is it likely to be if you accidentally turned it the wrong way, maybe a touch like half a turn while putting socket on? Or is it more of an issue if you actually wrench it around backwards :eeek:

When do you need to set No. 2 to TDC? Usually you work off No. 1 being TDC, that's what the marks on the timing cover and pulley give you. Maybe a Typo? No.1 is rear bank, driver's side - maybe they think that is No. 2? (No. 2 is front bank, driver's side)

I thought it was weird too, Ill have a look into the manual and let you know.

Maybe I turned the motor over the wrong way , I turned the motor so it turned clockwise but when your facing the motor it's anti clockwise, which is a pain because the crankbolt wants loosen that way, maybe that's why the manual says use the special tool to turn it over.

Wrong! The motor needs to turn clockwise, tightening the bolt.

I've done 2 of these, never needed to turn the crank anti-clockwise, ever.

How bad is it likely to be if you accidentally turned it the wrong way, maybe a touch like half a turn while putting socket on? Or is it more of an issue if you actually wrench it around backwards :eeek:

Slight chance you get the belt slack on the crank cog and the belt skips a tooth or 2, and you will end up with the belt slack on the wrong parts of the belt, making the timing marks not line up. Otherwise, no problem.

Is only 2 teeth, turn motor so cams line up thus when you release the belt the cams will not fall off the lobes. Once belt is off rotate the crank the few degrees back

Also, don't use a bolt and washer hard up against the dowel pin like that as this will damage the dowels pin as well as cause the crank bolt to bottom out

Also, don't use a bolt and washer hard up against the dowel pin like that as this will damage the dowels pin as well as cause the crank bolt to bottom out

I had to go back to he picture to see that, I missed that bit. Those scroll pins aren't very strong, they are there to line things up correctly but it is the crank bolt that holds things in place once tightened. Scroll pins have been known to bend, shear right off or get distorted into barrel shape if mistreated.

I just pop the pulley back on with the bolt, you can still see the marks on the crank from above to line it up.

Instead of putting the pulley back on the crank, I used some very large washers and a large nut as a spacer to simulate the pulley. I could then see the timing marks easily.

I had to do a timing belt on my pajero recently (6g72) I was having a similar problem. I had set TDC by hand (1st piston TDC on compression stroke) I couldn't get the belt tight initially because you have to install the belt starting from the lhs ( i think it was water pump) then following to lhs cam, rhs cam down to crank. You kinda run it clockwise. Running in the opposite direction would not give me enough tension on the belt. I got it finally.....

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s520/tomdelta/001.jpg (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/tomdelta/media/001.jpg.html)
There's a nut under the washer as a spacer, the spring dowel pin wouldn't last long bolting down on top of it. The hardest part I have found is getting the belt pre tensioned right. Trying to tension the pulley to 5 NM while tightening the bolt is a pain in the arse. I think I got it to tight the first time, though now the left cam sprocket is out one tooth, so I'll have to redo it. It's hard to know if it's the right tension when you have not done it before. Might save up a bit more next time and take it to the experts I think.

I had the same problem both times I did the belt, the back cam ending one tooth out.
I used a 17 mm spanner to move the cam one tooth forward, before slipping the belt on the rear cog, then moving it back to line up the marks again and getting tension on the belt. Couldn't see any other way of doing it, but you need to hold onto the spanner tightly, the cam likes to jump as soon as you move it off the marks. Bit of a head scratcher the first time, second time was easier.

Getting the belt tension right on the pulley at the hydraulic tensioner took me a couple of attempts, but at least you know when it is right - rotate crank clockwise two turns, then see if the pin slides out of the tensioner easily, wait a while - 5 minutes - for the tensioner rod to ooze out (if it does at all) and see if the holes are still lined up.

All it takes is patience, time, skill and determination. lol

First one was on a TJ and now has done 30,000 km on a new belt, second on my TL now done 15,000 km with no problems, guess I did it right. lol
Also did a TS V6 years ago, and two Lancers (dead easy in comparison) with no problems, so I'm thinking I know what I'm doing when it comes to cam belts? lol

First one is the big one though, many WTF moments and re-reading the manual pages. lol

Thanks Max, I'll give that try, sounds like the best way of getting the rear cog lined up. Your right, the first time doing this is a pain, luckily we have a forum like this with people giving there help, makes it easier. I appreciate your help Max, and everyone else that's replied, have been a big help.

I have never had this issue, yes I do heaps of them but still if it was an issue which would be easy to encounter I would think with the amount I have done I would have found this issue by now

Starting at the crank pulley I put the belt on there, run up to the front cam, under the water pump and to the rear cam making sure the belt is tight all the way around this area.