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tools
01-12-2013, 03:19 PM
I need to get a replacement radiator for my TM but all the ones available on ebay don't have the vertical brace on the back to fix the two fans to. Have you replaced your radiator with one of these ebay ones and if so what did you do about mounting the fans?

Tools

coldamus
02-12-2013, 05:13 AM
I replaced the radiator on one of my TPs with this one: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251142748754&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:AU:3160 I was surprised how well it is constructed and that everything fitted perfectly. The engine runs noticeably cooler with it.

I used to have a TM and don't recall it being any different to the TP. Only one fan is attached to the radiator. The other (air cond) fan is in front of the radiator and not attached to it but to the air conditioning condensor. You don't have to mess with it at all.

The cooling system fan is attached to the radiator by its shroud. There are 4 bolts that screw into captive nuts welded into the radiator. In the aftermarket radiator, these were perfectly positioned exactly as in the original. I think the brace you are talking about is part of the shroud. The fan motor is attached to the brace but you don't have to disassemble that. You just take off the whole shroud and fan as one assembly.

tools
02-12-2013, 03:11 PM
Hi Coldy,
My TM was built in June 85 and there seems to be a number of differences between mine and later TMs. The radiator now seems to be another difference as it definitely has a vertical brace and both fans fitted on the engine side of the radiator. I did replace the radiator many years ago and it had the brace on it. Unfortunately it is welded to the radiator and not just bolted on so I can't just remove it and add to the new radiator.

Tools

MadMax
02-12-2013, 03:19 PM
If your old radiator is the copper type, you need to get another copper one and get a radiator shop to unsolder the brace and put it on the new one.

Later radiators are aluminium with plastic tanks, so don't get one of those, but it may be worth your while to look at wreckers for an aluminium/plastic one complete with the fans bolted to the top/bottom tanks.

Tpwagon
02-12-2013, 04:50 PM
This guy has a good reco TP radiator listed and he is a radiator shop.here is the eBay item number.. 221251248955. Maybe he could build it up as the correct one for you? There's also a TR radiator listed,it has both fans mounted to the rad,but I think the mounts are a little different,but its worth a look,I don't have the number,but a search for TR magna radiator will find it,maybe it will fit?? I'm sure someone out there will be able to tell you. Hope this helps anyway,cheers

coldamus
03-12-2013, 03:15 PM
My TM was an unleaded 86 model. It is 11 years since I wrote it off so I don't remember the details but now recall both fans being on the engine side of the radiator. You had to keep your fingers away from either one in case they started up. With the TN and TP, you only have to worry about one because the other is out of the way. The Gregory's manual for the TM illustrates the same fan arrangement as the TP, so it is probably only the early TMs that had the side by side fan arrangemant.

Just a few other points. A TR/TS radiator probably won't fit as it is both higher and wider than the TM/TN/TP. (core size 400 x 720 x 25 mm vs 375 x 648 x 32 mm). Also none of the 1st gens had plastic radiator tanks originally. It is possible that aftermarket 1st gen radiators might have plastic tanks but I haven't seen any advertised. The one I bought is all aluminium but I'd agree with MadMax's suggestion to get a copper one if it needs to be modified.

In case you need to convert to the later layout, I'm attaching pics of the fan arrangement in a TP. This is a carby sedan but EFI is the same except for a slight difference in shape of the upper hose. The first pic shows the single cooling fan. Second pic shows location of the air cond fan. Note that it is a push fan and pushes air through the air cond condensor and then the left side of the radiator. The condensor is not visible as it is under the cross-brace.

http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/cooling_fan.jpg


http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/air_cond_fan.jpg

tools
04-12-2013, 04:48 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. Coldy I emailed the guy you got yours from and he seemed confused about what I was saying. My vehicle seems to have some oddities that are not the norm. I will try to take a photo and upload so you can see what I am dealing with.


Tools

tools
04-12-2013, 05:56 PM
Guys, ow am I able to post a pic? It says I don't have permission to do so.

Tools

coldamus
04-12-2013, 07:44 PM
It used to be possible to add pictures to posts as attachments. That facility has been disabled, presumably because of the hard disk space taken up by the pics on the forum's web server. You now have to upload the pics to a web site somewhere. It could be a free image hosting site or the free web space (if any) allowed by your internet service provider. You then use the "insert image" button to insert the image in your post. Enter the url (web address) of the pic in the box that pops up.

tools
05-12-2013, 04:52 PM
http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r689/Tools3121/TMRadiator_zpsb0f923fe.jpg

Thanks Coldy. Let's see if this works.

Tools

coldamus
06-12-2013, 06:13 AM
That's interesting. The layout and size of everything seems similar to later models. The only differences I can see are the vertical brace you mentioned (which later models don't have) and the round fan shroud (in later models it is square).

Does your TM have air conditioning? If not, using a later radiator would be easy. You'd just need to obtain a used cooling fan with square shroud from a wrecker. Alternatively as suggested by MadMax, have the brace removed from your old radiator and soldered or brazed to the new one. If you have to do that yourself, you could probably manage it without soldering or brazing by bolting short horizontal metal strips (say 3mm thick steel) to the top and bottom of the brace and attaching them to the existing bolt holes in the new radiator. You might not even need the strips. Looking at my photo above, the bolt holes for the square fan shroud look to be exactly where your brace woult attach.

tools
17-12-2013, 04:59 PM
Update
I contacted the ebay seller above and he had no idea what I was talking bout either! After a few emails back and forth he said if I sent the bracket to him he would weld it on for me. The problem with that though is getting it accurately located so that It would suit the set out of the bolts on the two fans. I thought about doing what you said above coldy and bolting the bracket on but decided to take the radiator out and drop in to see the guy that I bought it off about 15 years ago. He too was surprised to see the vertical brace yet he was the one that sold it to me! Anyway he tested it while I was there and without taking the tanks off he doesn't think there is anything wrong with the radiator. I will put it back in and before bolting the fans back on will start the car and let it warm up to feel for cold spots on the radiator. I am not expecting to find any though so I am buggered why I have this overheating problem. I think I will go down the track of looking at the exhaust manifold to see if there are any cracks that could be causing it. Does anyone know how to determine if the manifold is cracked, apart from the potential overheating issue?


Tools

coldamus
17-12-2013, 08:50 PM
I don't have any knowledge of checking the manifold but have plenty of experience with overheating. It took me a long time to track down the cause when my carby sedan started overheating. The first time it was obvious - the top radiator hose had split due to rubbing against something. I replaced both hoses just to be on the safe side. That turned out to be a wrong move. It still overheated but only at speeds over 90 kph. I could drive up a long steep hill at 90 without a problem but if I went down the other side at 100 or more, it would overheat. If I dropped the speed back under 80, it would cool down again and was fine around town all day, even in heavy traffic

I spent lots of money replacing the other hoses, the thermostat, radiator cap, water pump, the head gasket and then the radiator. After posting details here, someone suggested the radiator hoses might be collapsing under load. That is what it was. The lower hose was collapsing at speed. I never considered that as a possible cause because the hose was brand new but when I swapped one from my wagon, that cured it.

That faulty hose was a respected Australian brand starting with "M". The one I replaced it with was a Gates brand hose. The difference between the two is very noticeable. The first can be effortlessly squeezed flat between two fingers. The Gates one requires fairly strong finger pressure.

I had a repeat occurence with the EFI sedan I bought a couple of months ago. It was ok driving back here at low speed but started getting hot at high speed. This time I knew where to look. Same brand of hose, upper and lower. I replaced both with the Gates equivalent and it has been ok since then.

I am not saying that your problem is necessarily the same but if the symptoms sound familiar, check out the hoses, particularly the lower one. If you can easily squeeze it flat between your fingers, check the brand and if necessary, replace it. The Gates part number of the lower hose for a TP is 05-0698 but for a TM it is 05-0555.

magna buff
18-12-2013, 08:26 AM
I read this thread and didnt know you had an overheating problem

just about the radiator

now that it is tested and the hose condition mentioned

after the hoses are done.... coolant /fans working /radiator /thermastat /cap/etc check out ok

repost the overheating symptoms if they are not overcome

see what the forum can make of it for you

tools
18-12-2013, 05:58 PM
Hi guys,
I have actually had this overheating issue for a long time and started another thread on it some time back. I have already replaced both hoses, radiator cap, water pump and hy-flow thermostat. All that is left is the radiator!

There isn't really any rhyme or reason to the overheating. It can be a freezing cold morning and it can heat up in 10 minutes and other days it can be 30 degrees and have no issue. With everything els having been replaced I am angling towards an issue with the exhaust manifold, unl;ess anyone else has any pointers?

Tools

Tpwagon
18-12-2013, 07:00 PM
I'd say first things first...make sure your gauge is actually telling you the truth,then you have a starting point.

magna buff
18-12-2013, 08:23 PM
want to see this TM keep working reliably

no way a crack or warp in exhaust has cause to overheating
all cooling has already been done

ok read your other threads

head gasket has been done properly
fans and radiator and every thing coolant related done

rechecking a few bits really sorry if its repeated

were the top and bottoms taken off the radiator to
check how many cores were actually free flowing ?

has the temp control to temp guage replaced at the inlet manifold

were all the wire connections to senders/fan starter /etc
checked for corossion or breaks in insulation..freyed wiring.....

next is water flow through the block

i have found several blocks
old dammaged welsh plugs still in the channels mostly steal ones all bent
thats hot spots ....

any cracks in the front block along the line of the front welsh plugs

how is the water pump and its drive belt ( is the little belt slipping)

veeone
19-12-2013, 06:48 AM
Does it still run hot with the thermostat removed??
When it does get hot do the thermo fans cut in....do they actually work if they do and not cutting in maybe your gauge is wrong.
What condition is the impeller on the water pump?? They can corrode away to almost nothing I have seen. Vee

Tpwagon
19-12-2013, 08:43 AM
If your water pump needs replacing give me a holler, I have a spare used pump off this TR engine that I bought to rebuild. It's just sitting here and the one on my car is good,so by the time I ever get to needing it it the seals will probably be all dried out..all good suggestions above,but make sure your ignition timing is right and your radiator core isn't clogged as well. When she gets hot feel the core of the rad...is it hot? If its cool its either blocked,you have a thermostat prob or other circulation issue like a slipping belt etc as above,providing your gauge is telling the truth. If the core is hot are the fans running? If not then look at the temp sensors for the fans,or a dead fan etc.

tools
19-12-2013, 05:44 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. I put the radiator back in this afternoon and started it up before putting the fans back in. Once it warmed up I felt the radiator and it had an even temperature all over so I now don't think that there is any issue with the radiator.

In response to your comments above:

1.I don't know if the gauge is right or not but when I see steam coming out of the overflow bottle I know it is hot! I have had the car for 24 years and know how it behaves pretty well, and it even just feels hot.
2. The crack in the exhaust manifold was suggested by the radiator guy. His comment was that if there are water galleries in the manifold (I haven't looked to see if there is) then the exhaust could be getting in to the coolant and heating it up.
3. Top and bottom hoses were off as I took it out of the car when I took it to the radiator guy. He said there was no issue with the flow and put his probe in to the accessible tubes to check them and said all is ok
4. I did replace the temp gauge sensor a couple of years ago. Interestingly enough when I ran it today without the fans installed the gauge didn't move at all, even after it had been running for 5 minutes with the air con on. Maybe the gauge or sensor is buggered but regardless as I noted above it is running hot intermittently.
5. The fans do start and work so I assume that there is no issue with the wiring. I have previously given the wiring a visual and all looks ok. MAybe I need a sensor that will start the fan earlier. Has anyone changed the sensor to a lower heat range before?
6. I replaced a couple of welsh plugs on the back of the motor 3 or 4 years ago but did remove the old ones. I assume you are saying that the old ones were still in the block and pushed inside when the new ones were installed? How can I check for flow through the block? I have flushed it previously and putting the hose in one hole sends water out another hole so as far as I know it is clear. There is also no sign or rust or debris in the coolant.
7. I don't seem to be losing any water ( well a very minor amount over a few weeks but not enough to lower the level in the radiator) so don't think I have any cracks in the block.
8. I have replaced the water pump in the last 12 months so am confident that it is ok. The one I removed was in good nick also. Thankis for the offer TP but I think I am good with the pump.
9. I did try it with the thermo removed some time back and don't remember what happened. I assume that all was ok or else I would have persisted with the line. When I replaced the thermo I also changed it to a hy-flow thermo to see if it made any difference.
10. Timing was checked when I did the head gasket a few months back and was all good.
11. I replaced the temp sensor for the fan a while back and also tested it in boiling water on the stove and it was kicking in at the right temp, or at leas the specified temp. Maybe it needs to be lower though.

The whole issue with this running hot is manageable but it always concerns me that I will get stuck in traffic and the thing will boil. I would much rather nut out what the issue is and resolve it but I am running out of ideas!

Tools

Tpwagon
19-12-2013, 07:07 PM
Just a thought here,both your fans are on the engine side of the rad....later models had one pusher and one puller,have you ever replaced a fan and it might be a pusher type? It sounds like she is definitely getting hot,when it does overheat are both fans running? Does it cool down sitting still or is it better driving to get more airflow? I know what you mean about wanting to fix it up,with alloy heads overheating issues are something you want to get sorted.

magna buff
19-12-2013, 08:37 PM
about the exhaust
cross number two off the list
the Magna 2.6 motors have no coolant flowing through the exhaust system
metal extractors are made for carby and EFI types if you are worried

The cause of all your problems now
is air is entered the cooling system somewhere... causing steam

ok if i read the thread right
it can be a 30 degree day and no problems
above 30 degree day no problems
below that and it may steam

because you wrote
7. I don't seem to be losing any water ( well a very minor amount over a few weeks but not enough to lower the level in the radiator) so don't think I have any cracks in the block.

I am thinking there is a hairline crack below the head
somewere along the cooling channels where air is present but not oil pressure

at block temps below the magic 30 degree day
the air gets into the coolant and gets trapped as the block warms up
as the block gets to temp/ crack is closed and coolant and air could reach boiling point

when you start the car and its 30 degrees the block is already warm eneough to close that crack

now chemiweld and such products will only make the cooling system worse for this problem i cant advise its use

very rare but i have found cracks in the piston wall below the piston ring working line
coolant goes around the pistons ....the engine still ran..without a miss... two motors were 200,000 km + old

tools
29-12-2013, 04:03 AM
TP, I haven't replaced the fans so they are the originals. The fan does kick in when it heats up. If I turn on the AC the other fan kicks in and that usually (but not always) brings the temp down.

MB,
I am not sure that I agree about air entering the system. When water boils it gives off steam! There doesn't seem to be any correlation between when it heats up and the temperature of the day. It can do it at 6am when the air is cool or it can do it on a 30 degree day. That is what is so strange about it. There could be a hairline crack in the block below the head I guess. How can I determine if that is the case?
I have replaced both radiator hoses already but am not sure what brand they are. They certainly seem to be firm and revving the engine doesn't seem to show any signs of collapse.

Tools

rumpfy
29-12-2013, 01:18 PM
I had a TM with carby and lead free petrol. The motor leaked water into the oil at 150,00 Km. This happened with the Sigma, but was thought to be overcome with the the Astron 2 motor.
Looking through the posts, I cant see where the radiator cap has been ruled out. The magna has a 120 kPa cap whereas a LOT of other cars I've seen have a 109 kPa cap.
Just a thought.

magna buff
29-12-2013, 01:24 PM
if your all wondering where i am going with this
I am looking for every overheating issue on a first gen
causes/ symptoms/ fixes

off thread I am going to troll through posts / repair manuals /whatever
see if anything ....out of the ordinary turns up

Tools ...on yours
everything that has to work has been fully checked or replaced
the symptom remains

next lets look away from the main cooling system and look at anything
connected to it ... anywhere where coolant flows not previously listed

very sure your carby has coolant running through it at the base
take a good look around the base... of the carby to inlet manifold gasket
if you see any green colour at all or want to cross it off as a possible cause .... replace that gasket

how does the auto choke coolant hose area look .

if it was the cabin heater radiator it would leak ..its made all of copper . so no need to go there

is the thermostat bypass hose clear and corrosion free

the timing cover has a blanked over coolant port (where the sigma water pump went )

is there eneough room to fit an aftermarket thermo cooling fan
they are bigger diameter/ higher rpm and give better cooling

veeone
29-12-2013, 07:10 PM
Is the thermostat in the rightway around ie the spring pointing towards the ground into the manifold?? Vee

magna buff
30-12-2013, 10:26 AM
hI Tool s .... really been researching this problem for you .... and still looking
you have had the car a long time

just realised its been since 2010 you been postiing problems with your TM on this forum thats three years..
sorry I wasnt of much help to you back then .hope i can make it up to you now .... buffy

we can fix this ..all we need to do is be sure the block and head are sound

how many times has it overheated? I read it blew the top hose off once/ welshplug /inlet manifold problem/head gasket

early heads fitted to 2.6 sigma motors and early magnas heads
had serious internal failures when over heated .. most were scapped

the 2.6 heads soften every time they over heat .... bolt tensions are compromised
after overheating a head did you fit new head bolts

fitting a TP head or TR head is the way to go (both ran carbys )

when you have done a head gasket did you check the top of the block for warpage using a straight edge and feeler guage

did you at any time get a head being fitted.... machined/ pressure tested/tested for hardness

was head ever converted to run unleaded..

has any work been done on the block ..that you remember

other interesting stuff I found on forums

a high flow thermostat lets too much water flow quickly so isnt cooled eneough (many negatives in posts in other forums about them )

use stock thermostat but drill a hole near the top (ask if more detailed required)
where it will let water through before it opens fully

has ever the bottom hose been cold and the top one hot

air con condenser (aluminium-corrodes or blocked fins )means less air into
radiator so less cooling .....air con cooling fan has to work 100% every time when on

magna buff
05-01-2014, 06:13 AM
hope you are ok

tools
21-01-2014, 05:47 PM
MB,
Sorry to have not responded prior to now - life sometimes gets in the way! I certainly appreciate all of the effort you have gone to in trying to work this one out. I haven't looked at the carby and choke coolant ports but will do so. Where do I find the thermostat bypass hose of which you speak?
I didn't fit new head bolts when I did the gasket. I also didn't check the block or have the head machined. Surely if this was the issue it wouldn't run as well as it does (for such an old vehicle anyway)? No work has ever been done on the block, and it still runs on unleaded with a lead substitute added every fill. If I recall correctly, the thermostat already has a small hole in it. Top and bottom hoses were both hot when I checked the radiator for temperature differences recently when the fans were out. The aircon fan kicks in every time that the AC is on.

Vee, I have previously checked the thermostat for orientation and it is correct.

Over the Christmas break I did a couple of stop start return trips of 40km each way and the engine didn't feel hot at all. Thinking about it some more, the fact that when it does occasionally get hot and I turn on the AC it cools down makes me think that there is some sort of issue with either the range that the fan is operating in, or that the fan is occasionally not kicking in when it should. When I tested it a while back it was cutting in at the right temp, but maybe it doesn't do it all the time. I have previously changed the sensor but I think I need to somehow find one that will kick in earlier, or as you say look at if a bigger/more efficient fan can be fitted.

I will check the things that you mentioned above and report back.

Tools

magna buff
21-01-2014, 06:15 PM
dont think it will be on your TM if you only get half pumps for you car

your TM .. if you decide to go back to a std thermostat drill a hole in the top
as it sits in the housing ..slightly less then inside diameter of pipe size on water pump

pic of the pump ....... see the smaller pipe fitting ..
what it does is allow a small amount of water to flow untill the thermostat opens fully
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh59/magnabuff/tf1025bp.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/magnabuff/media/tf1025bp.jpg.html)

other expensive way is to get a TN inlet manifold carby type.... and water pump to suit
will look just like a tm with a improved system

magna buff
21-01-2014, 07:22 PM
interesting stuff
car running ok for now
will rule out head and block and hot spot possibles even the carby gasket
...
you mention
it helps cool when the air con fan is on
not cooling when very cold

original cooling fans ....it is possible the bearings or the motors windings tired
they will still spin ... but not as fast as it needs to...
also the blades condition maybe ....test deflection at edges..but dont break the blades

if you took out the fans and wired to the battery to test bypassing the temp sender
you could tell by sound / heat/vibratiion of the motor etc

will look into retro fitting fan motors off a tn -tp onto your frames ... using your blades

needing forum input (i dont have any fan motors left)

new bearings in old fan motor wont solve all the problem

after market fans cost around $100.......dont really fit or look nice
..they spin faster and are new ..... use same temp sensor
seen them fitted on first gen magnas
what size would work ......if it came to that ...... come in 10 -14 inch etc have own support cage to mount

top and bottom hose are hot .......... water flow is good

magna buff
22-01-2014, 04:59 AM
images and information by coldamus

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh59/magnabuff/motor.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/magnabuff/media/motor.jpg.html)

looks all good

the fan is held on the the shaft by a bolt
tm and tp use a three bolt pattern to mount

just hoping
the diameter of the fan motor body is the same for both
so it bolts into the frame straight
the shaft length is the same