After telling "TPWagon" that I had plenty of experience with overheating, I received more unwanted experience on Wednesday.

I have put a lot of work into the TP efi sedan that I bought at the end of September. The final few things were finished last week and I was pleased at having it completely free of oil and cooling system leaks and ready for its annual roadworthy check due in January.

It had been running perfectly on my trips to Tamworth but this time, about 15km out of Tamworth on the way home, the temp gauge suddenly went right up the scale. I stopped and had a look in the engine bay. It all seemed normal. It wasn't overly hot and the fans were working properly, so I just topped up the coolant reservoir. It took less than half a litre. Starting off again, the temp gauge was normal but the engine seemed low on power. Soon the temp gauge went up again. Just outside Werris Creek and still 40 km from home, it lost all power and coasted to a stop. Not good! I could smell hot oil.

This time it really was hot and I scalded my hand just popping the top off the coolant reservoir. After it cooled down, I took the radiator cap off and put in all the water I had with me (about 5 litres). Surprisingly, I was able to start it and drive about a km to a rest area with water taps. After it cooled again, I tried to re-fill the radiator but water was pouring out faster than I could pour it in. I discovered that the small hose at the passenger side end of the inlet manifold had split along its underside. I had just fitted a complete new set of hoses but for that one, the supplier sent the wrong one. (they're different for auto and manual). I left the old hose on, intending to re-order the correct one.

Anyway, I had a length of coolant hose of the right diameter with me, so cut and fitted a piece of that. I was then able to fill the radiator and coolant reservoir completely although there seemed to be still a slight leak. I had trouble restarting it, probably due to lack of compression (head gasket?) but eventually it fired and I set off again. As I got to Quirindi, still 20km from home, it lost all power again and I turned into a side street and pulled up with a lot of smoke and rattling noises. That was obviously the end of the line.

It was a lucky break pulling into that street because there's a wrecking yard there and the owner was outside talking to a customer. He saw me pull up and came over to help me push it off the road. He arranged for his son to drive me home (for a fee). I was glad of the offer because I had a couple of hundred dollars worth of food and meat in the car fridge.

We also arranged that he would deliver the car to my place on his tilt tray. That was supposed to be yesterday but I haven't heard from him. I'm anxious to get it here to see what damage has been done and whether it is fixable.

So now I have nothing to drive, 3 unroadworthy TPs and no money. The carby sedan still runs but very roughly. The wagon runs and drives well but has minor front end damage.

This is the one I just had the problem with:

http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/EFI_TP.jpg

This is the carby sedan:

http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/Carby_TP.jpg

and the efi wagon:

http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/EFI_Wagon.jpg

Maybe swap the engine from the wagon into the sedan?

Maybe swap the engine from the wagon into the sedan?

I've given that some thought. The wagon's engine runs very well but is high mileage (about 330K). I replaced its valve stem seals not too long ago, so it is not smokey. There is just a little smoke at full power. However it doesn't seem worthwhile to swap a high mileage engine into a low mileage car. Also I think an engine swap is probably beyond me. I have no hard surface. The ground is soft and I don't think I'd be able to move an engine crane by myself with the weight on it.

I've just spoken to the guy with the tilt tray and he is going to bring the efi sedan early tomorrow. Over the next couple of days, I will take the head off it and assess the damage.

That's bad news,sorry to hear about your dramas,it looks like a really nice car .if it's been hot the head is probably soft and need replacing.i saw a head on gumtree that was fully reco a while back,hopefully your bottom end is still ok. I'll keep my fingers crossed! I'm sydney and have the old tp engine out of my wagon,but I would really want to hang onto it,I would loan it to get you out of trouble but with all the hassle of distance and work involved I'm sure there is a better way. Maybe a good second hand one from the wrecker? You can pull the engine without an engine crane,I just attached a ratchet cable winch type things to the truss in my garage and it lifted it just fine,trans included. If your short on $$ and you need a head gasket give me a holler,I've got an old stock Mitsubishi one here that I'll never use,I got it with other stuff on eBay a while back,that way you'll only need an intake gasket,I think I've got an exhaust one here as well. Hey it's Christmas time after all!

Tpwagon, thanks for your condolences and kind offers but that won't be necessary. When I bought it, the car had a slight oil leak at the rocker cover (actually at the semi-circular rubber thingy at the front of the rocker cover). A rocker cover gasket was $28 + $14 postage but a complete VRS gasket set was $45 + $14 postage, so I bought the complete VRS gasket set. I used the rocker cover gasket out of that but still have the rest of it including the cylinder head gasket, manifold gaskets, water pump and camshaft seals, valve stem seals and lots of other goodies. I also have a sump gasket that I bought but never used. Then there are manifold gaskets etc. unused from the VRS gasket set I bought when replacing the head gasket on the carby sedan. In that case, I took the head off with inlet and exhaust manifolds attached, so didn't need to use the manifold gaskets.

I could possibly swap the head off the wagon but will see what the damage is first.

Edit: When replacing the thermostat, I noticed the interior of the cooling system was a strange, muddy brown colour. The engine ran very smoothly but was not nearly as powerful as my other TPs. I suspect I'm going to find that it had been patched with chemiweld or similar. I don't think the hose blew first. I think the head gasket let go first and the steam pressure blew the hose, the old hose being the weakest point.

I will be very busy over the next week or so. If I don't reply to posts, I'm not being rude, just busy. I will try to post back here but probably overnight rather than during the day.

No worries all good....When I got my head rebuilt the first thing the guys did was to check it for hardness,apparently if its overheated they lose their heat treatment and go soft and they are trash. These guys are pretty fussy but just thought I'd mention it,who knows,I may have been cooked by the previous owner and you may be better getting something better to put on.happy wrenching!

Hi coldy,
I'm sure this will all ultimately work itself out. The good thing about a stuff up like this is that you cant get any lower. Then, gradually, with the light of day, everything magically gets better and better, and one day you look back on this and have a good laugh.
best wished for Xmas and the new year.

Thanks, guys. Merry christmas to you too!. I will post the outcome here.

Progress report:

The car was delivered to my place this morning. Despite oil splashed everywhere the dipstick shows only slightly below the full mark. There's no sign of water or metal in the oil but that's only from looking at the dipstick. I will know more when I drain it fully.

I topped up the radiator and attempted to start it. No sign of life but no crunchy or rattly noises at cranking speed. I then took the plugs out. All four had water in them, particularly No. 4. I haven't done a compression test yet but it is probably academic. I think it is obvious there won't be any.

Today is forecast to be 39 degrees and is already over 30. I got sunburnt in 15 minutes so will have to wait till later in the day when the car is in the shade. At this stage I'm leaning towards swapping the head from the wagon. I looked at reco'd ones on ebay and can't afford those prices.

I topped up the radiator and attempted to start it. No sign of life
Best to have no water in such situations as like you noticed it gets on the sparkys. You can run it for a couple of minutes with no water without dramas to check it out. Done it plenty of times.
Coldy the Tp are pretty robust I would say you might be lucky and get away with a head shave if it is not too bad even if there is a slight warp they are not too expensive to straighten again. Bottom end will be fine usually as you had oil circulating etc. As you basically have most of the gaskets the head work should not be too bad $$$. Depends if you have the equipment to lap the valves in yourself and a decent vice to hold the head in. Probably the first time you stopped and topped up the reservoir the radiator itself was probably also low and would have needed topping off as well. In such situations topping of the reservoir is not enough. Just have to let it cool and get the top off and eyeball it. Had a 740iL a few years ago that we had get a bit hot on a trip out west. Same problem but the only way to get water into them is the reservoir as no radiator cap very frustrating when you have a hot engine and need it running to pour cold water into it and it is pushing it back out as fast as you put it in due to steam...........Just have ot be patient and wait. Luckily no damage done to the motor as that would have been very expensive!!!
Even if you use the head off one of your others at the least get it shaved so it is nice and smooth to mate with the new gasket. Goodluck Vee

Not sure if its in your budget but have a look on gumtree,a wrecker in Adelaide has a good second hand head for $195 guaranteed to be a good one. I've dealt with him before,he's a decent guy. Brian is his name,just do a search for magna head. Just worth a mention. when you pull the head off make sure you get that water out of the bores and down the top of the pistons,don't want any rust down there. Cheers.

make sure you get that water out of the bores and down the top of the pistons,don't want any rust down there.
Oh yes number one on the list that one. Plenty of WD40 down the side of the pistons to get to the rings!!!
If you donot get your head checked and buy a used one get it shaved as well as coming off another running motor it still may not be perfectly true. Made that mistake in the past with a head from a wrecker guaranteed to be very good......500km head gasket goes again due to it being ever so slightly marked in one spot!!! Not noticeable even with a straight edge it looked the goods!! Vee

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I didn't get anything further done on Saturday. Weather is like a furnace here and car too hot to even touch. Later in the day, I used the wagon to tow it a short distance into a better position where it will be in shade for an hour or two in early morning and late afternoon. It was a bit tricky towing with no-one else to help.

I've decided to use the head from the wagon because (a) the logistics are easier and (b) it is the only option I can afford. I'm reluctant to do it as I'd prefer to keep the wagon mobile. Once the sedan is up and going, I may put its old head onto the wagon. There won't be any rush to do that.

Some of the cars then need to go from here. The wreckers told me they can only offer about $50 each for them. They no longer bother parting out cars this old because there is not enough demand. They just send them straight to recycling.

I've been told that a good method of checking whether the rings or pistons are damaged is to put a small quantity of kero on top of each piston. If it runs straight through, there's a problem. If it holds for a while, they are probably ok. If there is a piston or ring problem, is it necessary to drop the crank to get the pistons out? After undoing the big ends, can the pistons be pushed out the top?

I've never done a magna engine in the car,but yes,you will need to pull the sump,undo the big ends and then withdraw the pistons through the top,can't really see any problems,once the sump is off its pretty easy. Before you do all that,have a look at the bores,if there is no scoring or damage you should be OK,if its been hot the rings may be a little worse for it but personally if money was tight leave it alone and just stick a head on it. You know,like Vee was saying,perhaps look at the head thats on it,chances are its corroded,but if not,just get it skimmed and put it back on and try it,it seems a shame to have to pull another car apart to get the head. even if it lasts you long enough to get some $$ together for another head down the track it may be worth it.If you replace rings you should give the bores a hone,but if the pistons are damaged,your probably better off getting another engine when finances permit.

Thanks, Tpwagon. I agree with the logic of what you and Vee say. My reluctance is due to the difficulty of getting any work done externally with no vehicle to carry things and almost non-existent public transport. I'd much rather do a complete engine swap with a known good engine but don't have the funds or facilities. Eventually I will need to move closer to civilisation. If there is too much work or cost involved, it may be more practical to just get another car. I will make the decision once I see the condition of the existing head and block.

I made only slight progress this morning. Removed the hoses, undid the exhaust manifold and removed the water pump. Had trouble getting the water pump off. Even after removing all the bolts completely, I couldn't turn it to loosen the belt. Eventually I enlisted the aid of some 4 x 2 hardwood. I have a shiny, near-new water pump to replace it with anyway. I won't be ready to take the head off today but should be close to that point. Tomorrow I have to go on a shopping trip by train, so it will be Tuesday before I know the worst.

At least mine didn't overheat as badly as this Outlander: http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/woman-heard-clunking-noise-moments-before-car-burst-into-flames/story-fnii5s3x-1226786749867 Note to self: cross Outlander off wish list!

Outlander probably had a fuel leak. Saw a nice BMW X5 on fire near the Ettamogah Pub last year.... Same deal!!
Coldy generally the head gasket will fail long before you seize the bottom end when you get a water leak like that from a hose.
Rebuilt many top ends after similar failures and bottom ends have been ok.Had the odd one that got really hot use a little more oil after as the rings can lose a bit of tension with extreme heat.
You have to remember the oil circulating also cools the bottom end as well as lubricating it. Last 2.6 I rebuilt I got the head skimmed and new VRS set and standard piston rings and big ends $350. Of course no labour doing it myself.
Yup those waterpumps can be stubborn to remove the "O" ring freezes in there. Remember to give the hole a nice clean with some fine sandpaper before refitting the new pump so the new "O" ring has a nice surface to seal on!!
May get a better price from a scrap dealer direct for old car bodies especially if you can deliver it there and they donot have to come get it.Vee

Once you get the head off flip it over on a flat surface and spray some WD40 etc around each valve seat so it sits in where they meet and if you have a compressor put the blower in the port and blow air near the seat/face and see if you get bubbles indicating if they are sealing or not and need lapping in.You will need a long straight edge to check for warpage of the head itself. If not take to an engine reconditioner for advice and checking. Vee

I just saw an ad on gumtree from a guy who lives at Woolbrook near Tamworth. Looks like he is having a rather large clean out of 2.6 engines and bits. He doesn't mention a head ( more performance type stuff) I know you mentioned you dont want to spend up big on it,but hey,it sounds like he's in your neighbourhood and may have something he doesn't want that might help you out,maybe worth a call? Just do a search using 4g54 on gumtree and you'll see the ad,thought it was worth a mention,cheers.

Thanks, Tpwagon. Yes, I saw that ad. and thought he might be my saviour. It looks like he wants $1000 for the lot. On further reading, the first, modified engine is from a manual trans carby car. The head on it might suit me but I doubt he'd sell it separately. The next one is from a sigma so not suitable and the last one has an Astron 1 head. All a bit old i think but I should talk to him anyway. However I'm also looking at a TS wagon with 7 months rego for about $1,200. My brother would lend me part of that. I could continue to fix the efi sedan, get 12 months roadworthy certificate on it and sell it to repay him. That would be a pity though as it is otherwise a good car and both interior and exterior look like new. The other two have to go, money or not. I can't have 4 cars in the yard. All the wreckers are on holiday until 6th January but I'll talk to them then.

My shopping trip by train yesterday was a nightmare. It is just not practical to continue doing that. There's only 1 train in each direction per day and the down train was 30 minutes late so I only had 40 minutes before the up train was due. I couldn't carry enough anyway.

Vee, I don't have a compressor but have a 12 volt air pump used for inflating boats and mattresses. That should do the job. I'm fairly sure the burst hose was not the cause of the problem but one of the effects. I noticed a lack of power before that. Could barely manage 80 kph. I reckon the head gasket let go first, causing lack of compression. Strange thing was that it still ran smoothly, just gutless. Eventually the steam did the rest. However it wasn't leaking when I first stopped to look at it. I was also mystified because the temp gauge went up the previous week yet it wasn't overly hot when I got home and used no coolant from either radiator or reservoir that week or the previous three.

Anyway, I must get started now. Might know more by the end of the day.

Rain slowed me down but at least weather was cooler. Got the head off late yesterday just as rain started again. Initial impression is that bores look ok but you guys were right about the rust. I've sprayed everything with Innox but need to get it all back together quickly. I can't turn it over now with the cam sprocket off and sitting on the rest.

I lifted the head off with cam and rocker gear attached. Turned it upside down and see no signs of obvious damage. Valves with surface rust already - applied more Innox. Oil was obviously very hot. Rocker gear etc. all covered in a varnish of cooked oil. There was surprisingly little water inside - only a couple of drops on the pistons. Even the head gasket is not as bad as expected. Will get photos later.

I'm mystified how there was compression loss and water ingress as the gasket was intact around the bores. Surface of the head looks pitted in places but might be just residue from the head gasket. See how we go when I clean it up today.

Lots of brownish white chalky looking stuff in the inlet manifold water passages especially near the two temp sensors. Will investigate that when cleaning off gasket residue.

I will post again tonight. By then I should have a better idea of the prospects of getting it running again.

Thanks for the update,good luck with it. There is obviously a pretty major issue in there somewhere,if its not the head gasket make sure you find where the water was getting in.....can the intake manifolds corrode away and let water in to the runners? It's just a thought. Cracked bore? I know these engines don't tend to do that,but its a possibility.

No mystery.
overheating the cylinder head makes the headbolts recede into the alloy and they loose tension.
Look for dishing where the headbolt washers sit on the alloy. Also check the washers for flatness.
They end up cup shaped.
Also, the valve guides can come loose and water can enter that way.
No point going any further with this head until you get it checked for hardness.

Seen this problem plenty of times on Sigma heads. One instance of overheating and they are scrap metal.

Any updates?

Any updates?

Yes. I will post again when I've finished but that will be at least a few days yet. I've been held up by mail delays and suppliers closed for the holidays.

On closer examination there was evidence on the underside of the head gasket of compression loss between cylinders 2 and 3 and 3 and 4. The head did not show the symptoms listed above by MadMax (I don't think it got quite that hot - engine still had all its oil and some water). However a straight edge showed the head is bowed upwards in the centre. (i.e. there's a gap in the centre between the head and the block) Too much for the head gasket to take up and too much to have it shaved. The block itself is nice and flat.

I drained the oil and it had water in it but no metal. I put the head back on temporarily, torqued it down tight and had it running to do compression tests etc. It ran reasonably well considering. I've satisfied myself that the pistons/rings are ok (no oil smoke) and no damage to bearings but obviously the head is shot. So now I've switched to plan B - use the head from the wagon. A compression test on the wagon engine shows it is good despite its high mileage. I'd like to swap the whole engine but it is not practical for me to do that here.

I may have a result by Friday but perhaps not till next week.

the bow you found ... head shot for sure

rest of motor should be fine .... your ok

my latest research has found a real problem using head bolts on a 2.6 motor
that have been overheated at any time (didnt know this untill last few days )

only reuse the wagons head bolts with the head you take off
if you know for sure I hasnt been overheated

If in any doubt at all use new headbolts . .....washes as well (see mad max post ).


it is nice to have usable spare parts at hand ..... sorry you had to sacrifice the wagon

It's probably a good thing you gave it a run,that way any water between the rings or pistons got burned out and some oil got to the bores to stop rust. A lot of work,but at least you have peace of mind that everything else is OK. I the head is that warped it won't clean up with a skim then I would imagine its been hot enough to declare it officially buggered,probably soft. Good luck with the rebuild,keep us posted!

If in any doubt at all use new headbolts . .....washers as well (see mad max post ).

Thanks for the advice.


It is nice to have usable spare parts at hand ..... sorry you had to sacrifice the wagon

I always had it in mind to resurrect the wagon but that's never going to happen unless I suddenly come into lots of money. It is a pity because it still drives well though not roadworthy.

One thing to watch out for putting a head on a block that has had this problem is cleaning out the headbolt holes. If there is water or oil or other gunk in the block's bolt holes, the bolts won't torque down properly, and you can actually damage the block. I wick out any liquid with a cloth, then run a bolt down the hole with the head off, pull it out and clean the threads of the bolt. Repeat until it is all nice and clean, use a torch down the bolt holes to check for any liquid left.

As for the warped head - take it to a workshop to test for hardness and ask if it can be machined flat. Worth a try anyway.

As stated above, make sure the washers under the headbolts are flat, put them on dry and clean, chamfered side up, but lube the top of the washer or the underside of the bolt head so the bolt turns without spinning the washer on the alloy of the head as you torque the bolts up.

Thanks. That's all good advice. I always make sure the bolts are clean but hadn't paid much attention to the holes. I will now!

Thanks. That's all good advice. I always make sure the bolts are clean but hadn't paid much attention to the holes. I will now!

I read somewhere that grot in the holes may cause hydraulic lock and crack the block, or at least give you the right torque on your torque wrench without actually applying the right force to the head. Worth checking. Better safe than sorry, really.

I vaguely remember you can skim as much as 2 mm off the surface of a head, if it hasn't been resurfaced before, so your head may be ok even though it is bowed.

I think now because of the age of the first gen range
and parts harder to find

you spent a lot of time and money into the sedan and it looks great

I would put new studs on inlet and exhaust sides in the head while it is off

tr and ts 4 cyl head bolts that fit the TN/TP motor
should still be able to be bought at repco bursons or other
washes if no luck anywhere .... a nuts and bolt shop should supply

if anyone else has a head problem/overheating
I would strongly suggest they have the block
tested for hardness/pressure tested/machined on all surfaces
fit new studs on sides
new head bolts and washes ..clean out thread holes in block
check block surface for warp ..
specs only allow one mm for the block warp
two mm for head warp

Fill the bores with rags and compressed air will blow out the bolt holes you will then be able to see the bottom with a torch.
Run the bolts in and out to make sure the threads are clean. Remember light oil on them when you put them in and also on the washers to assist movement when you torque them.
Heads can be straightened when warped they put them in a kiln at the proper temperature and then do it and a skim is the final stage.
They can even weld cracked alloy heads. Just depends on how much you are willing to spend.
The mileage on your block is low and I don't think it got too hot to damage it or else you probably would have other major problems.
Later when you have money you can pickup another head easily. Remember the 2.6 is used in Mazda Bravo utes the early ones and Mitsi canter trucks as well so there are plenty out there and also the 2.6 are used in some forklifts!! They just have extra bolt holes for other ancillaries and rear drive setup.Vee

Yesterday, I got the head off the wagon. Had trouble pulling the inlet manifold far enough back to clear the head studs. Struggled with it for more than an hour before realising the stay was stopping it. I'd undone the stay the previous day, or so I thought. Turns out that, working in poor light I had undone the bolt below it instead. Aaargh! Anyway, that head looks good. The head gasket was like new and head surface very good. I have yet to clean it up but a preliminary check with a straight edge shows no problems. I will check again when it is clean. There's some carbon build-up in the combustion chambers but not bad at all for a 300,000 km motor.

I then took the head off the sedan again. The new head gasket I had put on it also looks unmarked but there was water in the oil again. That worries me. I hope the problem is not in the block.

Another worry is that one of the two locating dowels (they are actually tubes) came out of the block with the wagon head, so I will have to get that out of the head somehow or get the corresponding one out of the sedan's block. There are also two missing and one broken stud that I have to replace.

I ordered another vrs gasket set. It was posted Monday and expected today but didn't arrive. I'm going shopping by train again today so it is not holding me up but I won't be pleased if it is not here tomorrow. If it arrives, I might have a result by Saturday.

go with the wagon head as planned


i respect your abilitys and knowlage you are not an idiot


ok
sorry if you know these next bits
the block just needs a flat edge and a feeler guage across the diagonals to check it
same as you would the head

find a bolt that fits into the dowel so it doesnt crush when you get
a multigrip or pliers or other suitable too do the job

spray wd 40 or similar over the dowel

gently start moving the dowel side to side not straight up at first
when it starts to move apply an upward force to the dowel as you
continue to move side to side

the two missing dowels should' nt be a problem for you

how will you tackle the broken stud ?

Thanks again for the updates,the dowels usually come out without too much hassle. Sorry I just saw Magna Buff posted the same time as me!Will keep fingers crossed the block is ok,should be fine...water in oil could also be from a corroded timing cover,there's a water jacket that is a dead end in the Magnas that the timing cover blanks off,they can corrode in that area. The TR engine I built was pretty clean but it still had corrosion in the timing cover in that area and needed a touch of weld to fix it up. When I pulled the old tp engine apart the cover looked good,but it always had corrosion inhibitor in it. It's a tough call to say wether its worth taking a look at it since you've got it apart or take a chance,I guess you can still remove it later if needed. I don't want to create more work for you! Just a bit of food for thought,cheers

Coldy,
I thought I'd posted this somewhere before but cant find it.
I had a brand new company TM Magna. At 75000 K the gearbox stuffed up BUT then at 150000 K the engine block cracked.
I was driving along one day and happened to look at the temp gauge and it was hard into the red.
I found that by keeping the water level up, the car drove OK; BUT the water was leaking into the oil. I drove the car for another week until the firm bought me a TR.
I think one of the other contributors (madmax?) here said something about the block has been known to crack around the bottom of the cylinder. I heard that Sigmas tended to crack the block but with the Astron2 motor, this problem was thought to be overcome. In my case the car was a normally driven company car and the block just 'went'. Your post 34 makes me nervous. TP reckons to keep the fingers crossed; I would do that too IF there was NO water in the oil; BUT can you explain where the water ACTUALLY came from. If you cant, and if you cant pressure test the block, and if you have a good spare block, then why take the chance. I'd say plan for the worst, and hope for the best.
To get the guide out of the head, a little heat from a hot air gun directed at the head may give enough expansion to let it fall out.
its a fun time yeah!!

Only problems I've come across with blocks cracking was on Sigma blocks, crack on the outside between the two large welsh plugs - one plug pops out, loss of coolant, dead motor. Haven't come across any internal coolant leaks on blocks, but one head had an exhaust valve guide shift and coolant went straight into the exhaust system.

Try molegrips on the stuck dowel.

"exhaust valve guide shift and coolant went straight into the exhaust system."

my recent online research reading this happens a lot in 2.6 engine heads sigmas and early magnas

only my own experience while doing engine reconditioning the 2.6 blocks
cracks in the pistion bore all 3rd cyl down below piston stroke
made machining impossible
both blocks were" recons rebuilds from repco
20 thou pistons engine...ring gaps not offset properly
used km just out of warranty .. contacted repco several times ..they didnt want to know
no didnt take pictures

Thanks, guys, I don't have time to respond individually right now but will be taking into account your good advice and experience. Just received a card from the postie. Hopefully that is for the VRS gasket set so will walk down and collect it. I should have more to report tonight though probably not ready to run till tomorrow. Forecast is for 43 degrees but car is in the shade.

Edit: The item that arrived wasn't the gasket set, so now can't put the head back on till Monday at the earliest.

Had to call it quits temporarily. It is like a furnace out there and too hot to work even in the shade.

Inlet and exhaust manifolds are already cleaned up. The head itself is cleaning up well and I got the locating dowel out of it easily enough using large pliers.

Now the question. I asked earlier whether it would be possible to remove the pistons through the top of the block with the engine still in the car. The answer was a conditional "yes". Thinking about it later I realised it would be tricky and perhaps impossible for one persion. The two at BDC might be possible, taking extreme care not to move the crankshaft and dislodge the cam sprocket from its rest. I don't see how the ones at TDC could be done except by rigging up some sort of temporary axle arrangement for the cam sprocket to run on so the crankshaft could be turned to bring them to BDC. So the question is, and it is probably a silly one, if it is necessary to remove the pistons, can that be done though the bottoms of the bores with the head still on and also without dropping the crank? With the head on, the crank could be turned wherever desired without having to worry about dislodging the timing chain.

No,definitely need to take the pistons out through the top.... Sorry bout that. Why do you want to pull the pistons? Are you concerned about the bores being cracked? Once you pull things that far apart it starts getting into a bit of a questionable situation,for example, would you fit the pistons and rings back in as they are or would you rering them? If you put new rings in you will need to hone the bores to remove the top ridge and help bed in new rings,you better clean it real good or the grit will trash the engine fast...then do you put in new bearings? May as well check the timing chains while you're in that deep,it opens a bit of a can of worms. I'm not saying don't do it,just be prepared for the possibility of more work and money. You've already built it up once with the old head just to give it a run,at worst case,you put the other head on,get it running and discover you have more deeper problems,your out of a couple of days work and a gasket set,its one of those things that only the person doing the job can decide. Personally,if I had the facilities to do the job,I'd pull the engine and go through it,but if I was working outside like you are,I'd put it together and try it,building engines outside is possible,but its a last resort in my book. Another way to look at is,if you pull the pistons out and find a cracked bore the engine is toast and you'll need to remove it anyway,if you build it up as is and its crap you will have to pull it anyways,the only difference is rolling around in the dirt and ending up looking like a crumbed cutlet covered in oil and dirt while you pull it apart,the gamble is the time to put the head on,you have the gaskets already,you don't have facilities readily available to pull the engine and it ran good before now.....I'm no gambler but if i was in your boots I'd throw a day or twos work at it and take a chance,but that's me,you have to do what you feel comfortable with.

you are working in heat on grass or gravel
not on a concrete clean surface or in a gararge

to much risk when opening the motor up that much in those conditions

i rebuilt a TS 4 cyl just rering /honed bore and refitted... in a clean workshop (not the bearings)
i had a co worker with me.... all the tools you could want ...it still took two full days

if the kero in the pots stays for a while the rings will do

as I read the thread you need a car working like yesterday

fit your head and get the car running again

Tpwagon,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply. Hey, I already look like a crumbed cutlet. Seriously, I appreciate your assessment of the situation and it is encouraging that you reached the same conclusion as I did. I have nothing to lose by giving it a go. If it doesn't work out, it is probably not feasible for me to proceed any further, at least until I have better facilities. It would be different if I had lifting gear and a garage with sturdy roof beams. In that case, I would be swapping complete engines.

The concern about the pistons is that the compression test results were attrocious. Bear in mind that this was with the bowed head re-fitted and with a new head gasket. On this first test, I forgot to hold the throttle open to suck in as much air as possible. It was a cold engine too as at that point it wouldn't start.

No. 1 cylinder 75 psi
No. 2 cylinder 60 psi
No. 3 cylinder 40 psi
No. 4 cylinder 75 psi

The next day, I did the test again, this time remembering to hold the throttle open and also did a further test with some oil injected onto the tops of the pistons. (still a cold engine).

Without Oil:
No. 1 cylinder 100 psi
No. 2 cylinder 90 psi
No. 3 cylinder 60 psi
No. 4 cylinder 110 psi

With Oil:
No. 1 cylinder 115 psi
No. 2 cylinder 135 psi
No. 3 cylinder 80 psi
No. 4 cylinder 130 psi

I don't know the reason for the low compression. It could be compression leaks at the head gasket due to the bowed head, it could be the valves or it could be pistons/rings. After these tests, I started the engine and it blew blue smoke everywhere for about 15 seconds because of the oil I had injected onto the pistons. After that, it ran completely smoke free and even settled down to a slightly rough 800 rpm idle.

Maybe I'm being an optimist but my thinking was that it ran smoke free before the overheating episode and it still runs smoke free, so that tends to exonerate the pistons and rings. Does that sound reasonable? I'm starting to have doubts because the figures are so bad.

I guess it doesn't affect my course of action. I still have to go ahead as planned. The wagon head is definitely better, so it can only improve. It can't get worse.

if the kero in the pots stays for a while the rings will do

as I read the thread you need a car working like yesterday

fit your head and get the car running again

You're not wrong about needing a car yesterday. Can't even carry enough groceries without one. Head gasket should be at the post office at 9 am on Monday, so I will be ready to fit the head then. Should have it running that afternoon. Thanks for your advice.

Yes,it does sound reasonable to me. You have a head that's warped like a banana up to 2mm? if number 3 cylinder leaped up with some oil I'd be worried,also running smoke free sounds good. When I started my new tr engine there was more smoke in my garage than a backpackers hostel ! It lasted for a good minute,I pre oiled everything really well and also squirted a shot of oil down each bore while I cranked it over to build up oil pressure,then fitted spark plugs and started her up.....biiiig smoke! Was a bit surprised how long it took to clear. Just have a really good look down the bores for anything obvious to make you feel better,then button it up and give it a try,then do a comp test hot and after a decent run. I still think its worth a try. How many Magnas out there have been cooked,cracked heads,blown gaskets etc etc and they just get a head thrown on and go again? Sure things can happen,murpys law and old cars go hand in hand!

if it was anybody new to the forum or wasn t sure of thier abilities
my advice would be different

pretty sure you have summed up the situation by your posts
knowing your experience etc ...
go for it

good luck

Have not read much of this thread but think I have the general idea. You drove the car, cooked it a couple of times and then you removed the head, put a new gasket on but used the same warped head (not sure why) and then did comp test

Now you put oil in the bores and the comps lifted slightly, this will happen with ANY motor even a brand new one as rings do not have a perfect seal especially cold. What you saw was perfectly normal. If the comps lifted to say 190 each cyl then I would say you have lost ring tension but they did not so in my opinion the bottom end may have survived

Check the deck on the block is flat, rare for these to warp or distort a block anyway. Cash up on a reco head and I think you will be up and running again. Get a new Thermostat and flush the cooling system and replace any old hoses you have not already replaced.

Just a brief update - more details later. The head from the wagon cleaned up nicely and both it and the block are dead flat. I was very careful cleaning the head bolts and bolt holes, following everyone's recommendations. I am thankful for that advice because there was a fair amount of crud in some of the holes that may have prevented the bolts bedding down properly.

The car is now up and running. It was reluctant to start, perhaps because the fuel rail was empty or perhaps because compression is not good. I will do a compression test later. Running was rough but has improved since backing off the distributor. There's no exhaust smoke but crankcase pressure seems excessive to me. There's a noticeable wind from the dipstick tube when the dipstick is lifted.

There's no sign of water ingress or leaks. I've only driven it around the block but if it starts reliably, I will do a short shopping trip tomorrow and see how it goes.

Edit: It is starting reliably, hot or cold, so initial reluctance to start must have been because of the fuel rail being empty (I had disconnected it when removing the inlet manifold).

The engine bay is starting to look cleaner. That's because most of the oil and grease is now on me.

http://users.tpg.com.au/acheson1/images/EngineBay.jpg

I think it will be good

just go with it

How's the beast going after a few days use? Cheers

How's the beast going after a few days use? Cheers

It starts easily and runs ok. Crankcase pressure seems excessive to me. Power feels reasonable in the lower gears but not so good in top gear. Tappets are noisy but they're from a high km engine. I could swap the original rocker gear back in.

First trip was to the nearest town, 20 km each way. When I got back, I could smell burning oil. I checked with a torch and the back of the engine was covered in oil and also the side of the block nearest the firewall. Some of the oil from that side had dripped onto the exhaust.

The next day, I confirmed the oil on the back of the engine was from the rear camshaft seal (the one behind the pulley for the water pump drive belt). I'd only just replaced that seal but that was on the other head. The oil on the side of the engine was coming from the oil filler cap, running down the side of the rocker cover, along the length of it and onto the inlet manifold and block.

I replaced the rear cam seal using two new seals, one behind the other. The oil filler cap from the carby sedan was a tighter fit, so I tightened it some more and used that.

Yesterday, I drove to Tamworth and back (75 km each way). Of course I watched the temp gauge like a hawk and stopped at each small town along the way to take a look. The rear camshaft seals are doing their job so that part of the problem is solved. There's still a small amount of oil getting out of the oil filler cap. I just wiped it off with a tissue at each stop.

As said above, the crankcase pressure seems excessive. I've cleaned and checked the PCV valve a couple of times. The PCV tube to the throttle body and the bypass tube to the air intake hose are both clear. Compression test results were awful (120, 110, 110, 130 psi) so piston/ring blow-by may be the cause. However it runs completely smoke-free, even under acceleration. I compared against the carby sedan and the volume of air/gas that come out when the filler cap is removed is much the same. However that engine also has issues, so I'm not sure it is a valid comparison.

Anyway, it seems reliable and should get me by for a while. I will need to resolve the oil loss issue to pass the roadworthy check later this month. I will be taking a closer look today. Perhaps just a thicker, softer rubber washer on the filler cap may be enough but I think the front crankshaft seal may also need to be replaced. I've done that before and it is a bit of work but not difficult.

I haven't had time to consider the wagon and carby sedan yet.

If you have heated the rings too much and they have lost tension this is the exact issue you will have, oil rings will not allow the oil past as they dont suffer but you will get a lot of blow by and low compressions, the reason oil is coming out is because of the excessive pressure in the crank case and the PCV system simply can not cope.

In the end I think you will need to do the bottom end to get any life from the motor.

Well the good news is that at least your mobile and don't have water or cooling issues. The compressions are at least pretty even,but those seals all leaking does sound like you have a fair bit of blow by. Is there much blowing out of the vent hose between the rocker cover and the air intake? Just wondering if the PVC is sucking the blow by or is there a lot of excess ? From what I've seen,most of these engines all sound pretty terrible when you take off the oil cap with them running,so don't be too discouraged by that,but what can you do? Maybe it will keep you going and settle down,or at least give buy you time to sort out other engine options. Good luck with her! Keep us updated when you get a moment.

With the oil cap twist till it hits home and stops and then turn it back a little 5-10mm or so and usually you can feel it get a little tighter.
Exepriment.
Common problem these oil caps when the engine gets some mileage on it. A new one lasts a little while and then suffers the same problem.
Blow by is the main problem for these caps leaking but not all the time.
Have toyed with ther idea of welding on a screw cap mount as the only way to get good seal!!!
Compression 1250 kpa and with 10% variation is the spec for the motor.(NEW)
Yours dont vary too badly have you tried putting some oil in each cylinder and seeing if it changes in case you are also losing some via valve seats not totally sealing?? Vee

In the end I think you will need to do the bottom end to get any life from the motor.

Yes, I realise that but need lifting gear, something to hang it on, a backup car or truck to transport the block and other parts and lots more cash before I can even consider that.


Is there much blowing out of the vent hose between the rocker cover and the air intake? Just wondering if the PCV is sucking the blow by or is there a lot of excess ?
I checked today. There is air/gas flowing through the bypass hose but not as much as I expected - certainly not enough to account for the volume that comes out when the filler cap is opened. I guess that means the PCV system is doing at least part of its job.


Compression 1250 kpa and with 10% variation is the spec for the motor.(NEW) Yours dont vary too badly have you tried putting some oil in each cylinder and seeing if it changes in case you are also losing some via valve seats not totally sealing?? Vee

I did with the original head but not with this one. I figure that's all academic now. I tested the compression of the wagon engine just before taking this head off it. Results were 150, 137, 135 and 134 psi. That is a 300,000 km engine. The fact that the figures are worse (120, 110, 110, 130 psi.) with the same head on this 63,000 km engine can only be due to pistons and rings.

Unfortunately I didn't test compression before the overheating/ head gasket problem because I had only just bought the compression gauge kit. I suspect it already had low compression because although it ran smoothly, its performance was not as good as the other two cars.

just keep the sedan running as long as you can
when situation is better for you financally and what is possible for you later
the sedan looks great so is worth putting more money into it

see your in NSW somewhere
take a holiday to brisbane/ipswich and we can take the motor out in my gararge
rebuild it refit ..have engine crane and tools etc
if intrested .....message . buffy

you can rering the motor with the block in the car
you know you have a good head fitted on the sedan
the lower end bearings and crank are for you to assess
like if oil pressure is great keep them in

rings cost about $ 60 for the set
a honing tool for the cylinders( dont know)
a full gasket set
your time

for the other two cars
before you spend any money
just make a list of usable bits for now

ACL do manufacture some ring sets that don't require a hone unless the bores are really varnished etc.
Important job to do is remove the top ridge or lip at the top of the bore with a ridge removal tool.
I got both big ends and rings for less than $100 last re ring 2.6 I did.
Block removal only needed if a rebore is required.
If it has only 63k on the motor and low compression before your problems it would be unusual unless it was badly neglected or overheated in the past or speedo rewound or cluster swapped out!!!
I had one 2.6 that was badly neglected with 145k and still had very good compression even though it has missed lots of oil changes.
Have you noticed much oil getting into the intake inlet hose from the blow by?? Occurs when there is large blow-by. Vee

Have you noticed much oil getting into the intake inlet hose from the blow by?? Occurs when there is large blow-by. Vee

Not an abnormal amount but if my overheating episode was the first, it probably wouldn't be evident yet. I did notice that the inlet manifold passages are blacker than expected but I suppose even normal operation of the PCV system could cause that.

The car was purchased new by the mother-in-law of the fellow I bought it from. When she died, it was inherited by his wife. They already had two cars, so It was not used much and certainly the exterior and engine bay were cosmetically neglected. It was parked outside under trees for years. The interior was clean and the condition of the front seats and pedals is consistent with the indicated kms. (they're like new). However a few things don't quite add up. e.g. with reference to my earlier posts about Loctite on the front strut nuts, I'm surprised that any work on shock absorbers would be necessary at such low kms. Also the oil was filthy black when I bought it.

I'm fairly sure that servicing was not done personally by the owners (definitely not the d.i.y. type). When I first saw the engine bay, I was suspicious of a prior overheating episode because the back half of the rocker cover was whitish as if corroded by steam. I asked the question of course but he said there were no overheating issues. It drove much better than expected, so I put it down to just general neglect. Low mileage is not always a good thing on an old car.

Anyway, that's all history now. Regarding oil filler caps, I took all three of mine apart yesterday and swapped the best of their rubber washers onto the best cap. The washers become hard, glazed and cracked over time which accounts for them not sealing well. This cap is now tight and should be good enough to stop the oil leak. After searching eBay for "nitrile rubber", I have found one firm selling nitrile rubber strip in one metre lengths of various widths and thicknesses. Nitrile is the high temperature rubber material that engine seals are made of. If I can figure out how to cut it cleanly, I will buy some and make spare filler cap washers out of it. I could cut the outside circle with a router and circle attachment but the inner circle is too small for that. Might be able to do it with a hole saw.

White powder deposits on the rocker is usual if the car is not used for long periods. Comes with alloy age. I have a magna under a carport that looks exactly the same at present.
For your nitrile if you know someone with a press find some pipe the correct diameter and grind an edge to one end and use it to press out a circle with the shop press.
Pretty sure I have seen Loctite on strut nuts in the past so not a drama.
Inlet passages blackened is normal the air being sucked in thru the pcv system is contaminated.
The wagon would have a good transmission in it then if the mileage is that low. Good bonus to have!! Vee

Yesterday, despite the heat, i put the "banana" head onto the wagon just to make it moveable or towable. I torqued it down and connected everything up. At first there was no sign of life but I soon realised the distributor was one tooth out on the drive sprocket. When I corrected that, it started easily and ran rather well - quiet and smooth with no smoke. I would love to take it for a spin around the block but a policeman lives directly in front of my place so that might not be a good idea.

I know your prob not in the market for another head,but I saw one on gumtree for plenty cheap....don't quote me but $85?? I think it was in tassie so postage would hurt I guess.

Thanks, Tpwagon. I hope to take a break from working on cars for a couple of weeks. The tightened oil filler cap on the sedan stopped the oil from running out onto the rocker cover and down the side of the engine, so it is leak-free again. I drove it to Tamworth and back today with no problems despite the heat. It seems reliable, so now it is probably time to conclude this thread.