I was talking to an engine builder today and told him how my car uses oil, and how I suspect the valve seals on account that it smokes when pressing the throttle after idling for a short while.

He told me that it is most likely not the valve seals, and rather the oil control ring which seems to be a common issue on these.

Can anyone comment on this?

Engines age. Old engines loose oil past the valve stem seals and rings. Early Mitsus were classic for loosing spring tension in the oil rings and burning oil at an early age, but all engines do this at high km. So, yes, it is a "common issue" - on any engine.

What is your oil consumption? How many km on the engine? Some new engines from various manufacturers have high oil consumption from new and is accepted as normal by their service departments.

In your case it is probably both. Buy a new engine if it bothers you, or live with it.

I was using about 400ml per 1,000km.
I've had the car in storage for 3.5 months and now driving it again and though I have not calculated the consumption yet it seems to be higher than before.

The engine has 190,000km on it and this is why I am not really sure of what to do seeing as the 200K service is coming up and I don't want to spend $900 on an engine on it's last legs when that money can be used to replace it.


Years ago I had a Toyota Camry with 350,000km on it and it used no oil.

I was using about 400ml per 1,000km.


Nothing to worry about.

I am waiting to put on a few km but so far it seems consumption has gone up.
Seems like a lot though, at 10K intervals I need to add a whole new bottle of oil from consumption?

What brand engine oil are you using?

I was talking to an engine builder today and told him how my car uses oil, and how I suspect the valve seals on account that it smokes when pressing the throttle after idling for a short while.

He told me that it is most likely not the valve seals, and rather the oil control ring which seems to be a common issue on these.

Can anyone comment on this?

Yes, I can comment, let me know who this clown is so I can make sure that AMC members stay away from him. Smoke while under load is rings, smoke when after an extended idle or de accel is stem seals, anyone who has any sort of mechanical back ground knows this to be so. The extra vac at idle will cause oil to be pulled past the stem seals and sit both on the back of the valves as well as through the top of the exhaust as idle combustion is quite weak in comparison to that of a motor running under throttle. Open the throttle and that oil will then burn off thus the puff of smoke

To say "these engines have issues with that" is a load of crap then again if you listen to even a pinch of the so called "common issues with magnas" then there would not be a single car left on the road today as these so called common issues seem to be the entire car

I'd be more inclined to do an oil change, and use a fresh bottle to top up every time it needs it until the next oil change. Then see how much of the top up bottle you used. Much more accurate way of doing it.

I need to top up once, about 1/2 L of oil, to get the level back up to the top mark, by the time it gets down again it is time for the annual oil change. That's about 5,000 km. So that is 1L / 5000 km, or about half of your oil consumption.
No smoke that I've seen though, and from past posts the Magna engine gets to a certain point where it suddenly starts to use more oil.

Worth a read:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1598033

Quote: toyota says "1L per 1,500km is considered normal".

I was using about 400ml per 1,000km.
I've had the car in storage for 3.5 months and now driving it again and though I have not calculated the consumption yet it seems to be higher than before.

The engine has 190,000km on it and this is why I am not really sure of what to do seeing as the 200K service is coming up and I don't want to spend $900 on an engine on it's last legs when that money can be used to replace it..

If I'm not mistaken, you mentioned in another thread that you are still using a 5w40. Drop the oil and start using a 10w40/50 at a minimum, if not a 15w40/50, to help reduce the rate at which you are using oil.

I think your looking at it the wrong way. You should consider your car a smart car.
It changes its own oil, you just have to top it up :)

If it was rings it would smoke almost all the time, and you would notice it under heavy acceleration.
smoke on acceleration after the car has been idle is valve seals.

it really depends how bad it is. If its bad enough that you think your gonna get pulled over for smoke, then you have to do something about it, if not probably just keep driving it as it depending how long you are planning to keep the car for.

its not that big a job to get done, but at the end of the day it comes down to if its worth the money.

If I'm not mistaken, you mentioned in another thread that you are still using a 5w40. Drop the oil and start using a 10w40/50 at a minimum, if not a 15w40/50, to help reduce the rate at which you are using oil.

And keep the revs down, and be gentle on the throttle. (as if lol)

To elaborate a bit the engine builder did not say the rings are worn, he said the compression rings are fine it is just the oil control rings gum up or get stuck (and are not the expanding type or something) and hence the smoke. He said the high vacuum condition of idle will bring oil up past them.

He also said that the way to check this would be to stick a camera down the spark plug tube and by looking at the piston he'd be able to tell whether the oil is dropping from the top or coming up from the sides.

The oil I use is 5W40 still yes, I plan to use a heavier oil next oil change but currently the oil is new and I still have 4L of the same oil in a bottle that I use to top up so I'll only change it once that's gone.

With the 200K service coming, I'd be willing to spend the money on it if it's just leaking valve seals, but if it's the piston oil control rings that are the issue then I would rather put that money towards an engine transplant (6G74 or even 75).


EDIT:
The way I check for consumption is I measure the MIN and MAX levels to be 1L.
Also I pour from a 5L bottle into a 1L oil bottle to keep in the car trunk at all times.

Just had my TJ (wifes Magna) serviced, did the 200,000km Major at 195,000km. Last service was 180,000 km's.
I checked the oil 1 month ago, dipstick was low. Added 800ml and it was in normal range.

Mitsi said that its common on unleaded cars to shed 1 litre over service intervals, so over 15,000km's thats not bad at all.

If your loosing oil at a litre per week, and your seeing oodles of smoke, panic then lol.

All the advice given by Mad Max, Mal etc is correct. Most people never even notice the disptick level down most times and assume there car uses no oil, its common to do so, and by 200,000km's its completely normal.

If my car was sitting at lights smouldering away, and then I take off to clouds of smoke like most older magnas I see then thats a big issue that needs addressing. I never saw an ounce of visible smoke on my ride, even when following it. Those losses just happen.

Hope that helps,

Just had my TJ (wifes Magna) serviced, did the 200,000km Major at 195,000km. Last service was 180,000 km's.
I checked the oil 1 month ago, dipstick was low. Added 800ml and it was in normal range.

Mitsi said that its common on unleaded cars to shed 1 litre over service intervals, so over 15,000km's thats not bad at all.
According to Spetz, though, he's using 6 litres per 15,000km service interval... My Magna uses a negligible amount of oil between services - never enough to require a top-up. Last service was 165,000km.

Seems, too that Spetz believes every problem he can come up with is "a common issue" with Magnas. Be it valve seals, oil rings, oil leaks, etc, etc... The fact is, very few properly-maintained Magnas have any such issues. Of course, the few threads one sees about such issues tend to come from that very small minority who do have them. Most of the 17,532 members here have never expressed any such concerns and, presumably, don't have those issues.

Oil is cheap. if a bit of smoke doesn't worry you too much, then keep topping it up. To buy a new set of rings and gaskets will be over $100, and then you have the labour on top of that. Also you will invariably find something else which needs replacing. You can buy a lot of oil for that sort of money.

Incidentally, if it is the rings which are worn or not working properly, it will smoke after long periods of idling as well as on the over-run. Oil will be sucked up past the rings, but not to the same extent as past the valve seals.

holy crap, these things use that much oil? i'm not a 'car' engines person so....
I figure 100ml per 1000km 'might' be acceptable

I better check my oil level. I've almost never even bothered to check the level prior to an oil change as I figure engines should use bugger all oil and be almost unnoticeable assuming its in good nick
My old Camry (SV21) used a negligable amount, over 5000km you wouldn't see the dipstick level change at all

But that brings me to a question, how reliable are oil pressure check lights? The old camry had its light come on when starting and disappear after 1-2 seconds, yet there was one incident where the oil pressure switch had a leak and was like a bleeding artery. By the time I got home I had maybe 300ml of oil in it, yet the oil light wasn't on whilst driving. Not good
Assuming it functions as normal, when would it normally kick in on these cars? when it drops to already dangerous levels or well before that?

Not sure if thats what the engine light it for, oil pressure warning I am not sure when its triggered but certainly nothing appeared on the dash when the engine was down 800ml. And even with that little loss, car ran fine, was cold, no heat issues and that was on hot day. So, its one of those things. Can any one confirm when the oil light is meant to come on at or how?

Also, try going 15,000 between services, then you'll notice movement. I had the same camry and even at 10,000km no oil was lost, but I was told they overfill the engine a little too (again could be bs) but eh, the experts already gave their points on this so we'd just be going in circles.

I will report back once I know if it's consuming any more oil than it used to.

If my timing belt service was not due soon I would not worry about it.

A question for the oil experts. If you have an engine that uses lots of oil (say 5L+ over 10,000km) is there really any point in changing the oil? Can you just get away with filter changes?

Yes, change the oil even if it burns a lot.

The oil pressure light comes on when there is close to zero oil pressure. It happens when the oil pickup is sucking air. The oil level will be so low it won't show up on the dip stick. If the light comes on at any decent revs, it's usually a sign your engine died about 60 seconds ago.
Us old timers used to replace the pressure sender switch with a gauge, it would tell you a lot about the health of the engine. As a warning light, the oil pressure light is pretty much useless.
(Not to be confused with an oil level indicator light in some more up-to-date cars.)

I think the oil pressure light triggers at 15psi or something which is quite low.

Oil pressure gauge would be good to have as from what I've read oil pressure drops with wear and tear (due to the bearings)

I don't have any problems with low oil pressure, just high oil consumption. I drive this car less than 5000km a year and it uses around 4L of oil in that time. I still do an annual oil change but am wondering if I'm wasting my time doing this since just about all of the oil is replaced in this time anyway.

if it were me I wouldn't, at least not at 5,000km
20,000km seems more reasonable. People are going to say differently but a 5,000km oil change of completely old oil, is much worse and more contaminated than 5,000km which has been constantly and periodically topped up with fresh oil
Then there's the fact the engine is flogged out if its burning that much oil in that space of time, so who really cares that much anyway? as long as it HAS oil it's not going to explode

Yeah sooner would be 'best practice' but lets not kid ourselves, it's not exactly an exotic, classic or expensive vehicle. Likely its also not in meticulous condition so why be meticulous about the oil?
I'm sure people are still going to disagree but an engine is not THAT fragile, and it ultimately comes down to 'is it worth it?'. I liken it to waxing and polishing a car that already has a lot of paint fade because you are worried it will 'corrode'. It's just not worth that level of attention......

There are some exceptions, for instance in my case I picked up a meticulous verada without a scratch on it and an engine bay cleaner than a dinner plate. Awesome for me, made zero difference to the owner though. The car still tanked in value and I snapped it up for the typical low market price. So if you care about what happens to the car after you are completely done with it and sell/scrap it and can say "well I made sure the oil was always top notch" go right ahead, it might make whoever inherits it feel good. Won't do much for you though

Jimbo:
if you only do 5000 km per year, the oil will be heavily contaminated (assuming that it is mainly short runs). If so, definitely change the oil. If it is long runs but only occasionally, then the consumption is still heavy for one of these engines, but probably OK.

A lot depends on the engie itself. My NL Pajero used oil from the first day I bought it. Main problem was SWMBO - she wouldn't let me drive it for 3 months (medical problem). She drove it and "ran it in" for me!. It used 1L per 4000 km, and after that the oil conumption increased to about 1L per 1000 km, until I changed it and then it was back to 1L per 4000 km again. When I stripped it down at 235000 km (due to my stuff-up), you could still see the orgiinal honing marks in the cylinder walls. Rings were still within original manufacturing tolerances as well. The engine rarely had cold runs - they were nearly always over 100 km each trip.

The TF Magna we had didn't touch a drop between changes, but we bought that second hand (ex EPA vehicle, and I suspect that it got a bit of a flogging by the office staff, but not the manager).

As I said before, oil is cheap, rings, gaskets etc are not.

This car only gets driven once a week on average. It's not a Mitsubishi but is a close relative of a Fiat. It usually gets a long run 50km+.

Jimbo:
How is the car driven? If it is driven gently, maybe it is time to give it a good hard run (after warming it up of course). Legally it is difficult to flog a vehicle for any length of time these day (flashing blue lights etc), but if it has a towbar, hook up a heavy load and give it a run.

One of the problems with short runs is oil dilution. You get condensation going into the sump and the levels look OK. Then you go for a long run and the condensate boils off, leaving you alarmingly low oil levels (if indeed the levels are checked at all). As stated above, try a heavier grade oil. If the engine is really worn, you can get 25W-60 oil which certainly will slow down the oil consumption issues.

It seems to use more when driven hard. It only has 55Kw so it is easy to use all that power, esp when going up long hills. I tend to just cruise around gently in it, unless holding up traffic.

My KH is at over 500,000km and uses 1L of oil for roughly 7,500km.
Some of that is leaking from the rocker covers, but most of it is burned away via the rings and stem seals. I do not make visible smoke under hard throttle or after full vacuum coasting down the hill on the freeway (I'm in Adelaide for reference)

Untill your making visible smoke under either of these conditions, it isnt a worry.
The old 180B and 200B datsuns could burn 1L of oil in under 2500km and still be considered 'normal' by the dealer.

Our 3.5l V6 TJ uses around 500mls on a 1,000km trip at highway speeds, but less around town. Was using Shell HX7, changed to HX7K "high milage" oil and consumption dropped. HX7 was on special so i used it last change (every 10,000k's) and consumption is back up again, so oil makes a difference. Car has 290,000km and does lots of highway miles. I also drive a 70' 164 Volvo with 200,00miles on the clock untouched, doesn't use any oil between changes. Some engines do, some don't, some Magna's just "do".
PeterN