Tried the forum search, but it doesn't seem to work for me.

Anyone swapped out the brake light bulbs with matching LED's with a successful result?
They'd need to provide good multi directional coverage in the lens as the original filaments do as well as being very bright to the rear in sunlight. Must not interfere with other electrics either.

This is for the KL

I want to know the brand/model or a link to the product,
TIA

Just be VERY careful when replacing incandescent lamps with LED types.
Reason being that the lamp voltage is monitored to operate things like Cruise control disengage and other things as well. With the LED, the 'off' voltage can be up to 1.5 volt and this can indicate to the electronics that the brakes are applied.
Just be careful.

Question is why?
I can fully understand it on motorbikes and such as some of them don't produce a lot of stator output and that extra wattage can be used in other area's like additional headlights, grip/jacket warmers etc. On a car though?

Just be VERY careful when replacing incandescent lamps with LED types.
Reason being that the lamp voltage is monitored to operate things like Cruise control disengage and other things as well. With the LED, the 'off' voltage can be up to 1.5 volt and this can indicate to the electronics that the brakes are applied.
Just be careful.
Hence why I was asking if anyone had successfully done it, although it does sound infeasible.

Question is why?
I can fully understand it on motorbikes and such as some of them don't produce a lot of stator output and that extra wattage can be used in other area's like additional headlights, grip/jacket warmers etc. On a car though?

Why LED? because they're faster and some research found this to be a benefit, i.e. Driver behind is alerted fraction of an instant earlier which translates into meters of stopping distance.

Also, they're so common now that i have a theory that we're getting accustomed to reacting to their focussed brightness too, rather than the glow of the older type.
Most of the LED's are way too bright, especially at night, which seems to be a side effect of the way they operate, so the older type are getting lost in all that glare.
Just a theory.

If it cant be done safely, then so be it. The car does have the standard high level strip, which i believe is LED? Which helps.

You'd be able to safely 'add' LED's and leave the existing bulbs in. I have a low profile spoiler on mine (stock option?) which has an LED strip in it

The high mount stop light on the later cars are LED.

What you can do, which is what MGNTZD did, is install the LED lights, but use a LED dimmer to set the brightness of each light. It was quite a chunky setup, but easily hidden behind the kick panels. I'm not sure if he ever did a write up or even photos of the install.

You'd be able to safely 'add' LED's and leave the existing bulbs in. I have a low profile spoiler on mine (stock option?) which has an LED strip in it
Good point. I assume the strip on the spoiler is inline with the brake lights, tapped into them. Is it possible to get one of these spoilers now?

Led intensity is adjustable. I dont know why they are so damn bright on most new cars.
I installed some vled tritons (http://www.vleds.com/bulb-type/tail-brake-turn-signal/7443-7443ck-7440-led/red-led/v3-r.html). They dont disturb the cruise control and do have a clear differentiation between brake and tail (Ive seen a lot of cheapies that lack this crucial characteristic).
Downfall was the brake mode was way too intense and I had to dim them. And I also had to mod the tail light to make them fit. Though after all that, by far the best looking "plug in" brake/tail I have seen.

Led intensity is adjustable. I dont know why they are so damn bright on most new cars.
I installed some vled tritons (http://www.vleds.com/bulb-type/tail-brake-turn-signal/7443-7443ck-7440-led/red-led/v3-r.html). They dont disturb the cruise control and do have a clear differentiation between brake and tail (Ive seen a lot of cheapies that lack this crucial characteristic).
Downfall was the brake mode was way too intense and I had to dim them. And I also had to mod the tail light to make them fit. Though after all that, by far the best looking "plug in" brake/tail I have seen.
Which model did you put them in?

TJ. I would expect the KW lens would need similar editing to make it fit. Because TJs are so common at the self service wreckers, I wasnt too nervous experimenting. Plus it is 100% commitment to the globe as there is no going back.

TJ. I would expect the KW lens would need similar editing to make it fit. Because TJs are so common at the self service wreckers, I wasnt too nervous experimenting. Plus it is 100% commitment to the globe as there is no going back.
Thanks shezza. Its an option, although i don't like the idea that they're too bright.
What kind of mod did you have do to the the lens? And how did you dim them?

Wow, $110.00 bucks

I have not seen any good cheap brake/tail leds. Rebel leds are top quality/highly rated leds. I have not seen any aftermarket leds that produce close to as nice of a light.
They are definitely far too bright! I really had no choice but to limit them. I know you are looking at leds for the reason that they light up more instantaneously and it could make the difference between being rear ended or not, though I did have to run it through a change over relay. Some people think it slows down how quickly the brake lights activate, though I honestly couldnt pick up any hesitation whatsoever. They run through a controller and its sealed up, so I couldnt edit the controller. Putting resistance in the line didnt work as the controller overcame it. Seemed the only way to go.

As for editing the lens - I had to shave down the raised part around where the globe fits in. I used a dremel type tool, but many ways it can be done.

Well if they're slowed down then the benefit is lost. Maybe the additional LED strip and rear spoiler combo is the best way to go, ugly as they can be.

Really don't see the point of going LED in the rear tail lights - Is it really worth the extra hassle? Besides I don't know that it would look any better/different behind a stock lens anyway.
Incandesent globes of a standard TJ/KJ are plenty bright enough, which for me atleast is the reason why I'm happy to leave them as is.
The only point I guess would be for the bling or for something custom and unique - Which I suppose is understandable.

I can vouch for vleds. They are by far the best. They have brightness differences between parker and brake light normal globes. Cheapies don't have that. I had a set of vleds for a couple of yours until my alternator stuffed them up. I haven't got a new one yet. They are expensive. Mine were from the US and were almost $100 delivered for the pair.

Really don't see the point of going LED in the rear tail lights - Is it really worth the extra hassle? Besides I don't know that it would look any better/different behind a stock lens anyway.
Incandesent globes of a standard TJ/KJ are plenty bright enough, which for me atleast is the reason why I'm happy to leave them as is.
The only point I guess would be for the bling or for something custom and unique - Which I suppose is understandable.

See my post on here showing the difference between a stock ralliart rear and mine with the LEDs. In bright sun, mine was still visible. The other thing is not having to change it. You know how it is these days, copy will pick on you for anything including a burnt out brake light. The onus is on you to check they are working each time you step into your car.

Here is my old post. Note that the day time photos were taken just before 3pm in late December.
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84679&p=1347775&viewfull=1#post1347775

Really don't see the point of going LED in the rear tail lights - Is it really worth the extra hassle?
Aesthetics and brightness aside, i see the real benefit is improved safety. LED brake lights are far faster than regular filament. Theres some research somewhere that shows excellent improvement in reaction times for the driver behind.
Visibility in bright sunlight is just icing on the cake.

Heres some info (http://wwnorton.com/college/chemistry/chemconnections/BlueLight/pages/hp/an1155-3.pdf)


It is generally well known that LED technology has a significantly faster turn-on time than incandescent bulbs. Typical incandescent bulbs used for automotive signal lighting have turn-on times in the range of 100 to 300 ms.[1] In general, the turn- on of LED lamps is less than 100 ns. Further, LED lamps don’t exhibit a high in-rush current, which might further delay the turn-on time. This faster turn-on time provides a safety benefit to the vehicle following the vehicle using faster brake lights in situations requiring fast braking responses. For example, at a speed of 65 miles per hour, a 200 ms faster braking response time from the driver in the following vehicle would reduce the minimum braking distance by:
Distance traveled = (65 mph)(5280 feet/mile)(1/3600 hour/sec)(0.2 sec) Distance traveled = 19.1 feet

Aesthetics and brightness aside, i see the real benefit is improved safety. LED brake lights are far faster than regular filament. Theres some research somewhere that shows excellent improvement in reaction times for the driver behind.
Visibility in bright sunlight is just icing on the cake.

Heres some info (http://wwnorton.com/college/chemistry/chemconnections/BlueLight/pages/hp/an1155-3.pdf)

I am aware of the superior turn on time being a diode over an incandescent - I could see the logic in something like motorsport where nanoseconds could count for something. My main point is about the time money and effort required to install a superior product behind the stock lenses. Much of the benefit would be wasted IMO, unless you do as Vlad says and pay around $100 for something like Vleds. Just saying it sounds like alot of money & effort for a relatively medium gain. But hey, each to their own!

Being able to see it in bright sun or during sun rise and set is very important. That is why most if not all west and east facing traffic lights have gone LED. In addition, they degrade a lot slower than incandescent globes. A vled set may last 5 to 10 years and you are meant to change regular bulbs each year as they fade. Price of 5 pairs of good quality incandescent ones are not too far from one pair of vleds.

I could see the logic in something like motorsport where nanoseconds could count for something.
I think the benefit is there for typical street driving too. 200 ns makes a big difference as shown by that calculation i posted:
Distance traveled = (65 mph)(5280 feet/mile)(1/3600 hour/sec)(0.2 sec) Distance traveled = 19.1 feet

I can actually see a larger difference than 0.2 seconds which i think must be due to the warm up time of the globe filament. Next time you're driving spot a LED strip and standard tail light combo and watch what happens when they activate. The LED strip is clearly fully on while the tail lights are still ramping up. Amazing.

I have to agree with vlad here. Even if If I just happen to be supporting my own use of leds at the same time :P
Even when not in sunlight, a led traffic light vs incandescent is of no comparison! Much more eye catching! I have no doubts it will reduce incidents at intersections. But like he said, in sun, its easier to washout the incandescent globe over an led. Particularly being how red and intense the light is. Even if there was no start up time difference, there is still no doubt a gain! I really cant pick up any lag going past my relay. Though ultimately, it would be better to just have an led that doesnt need any modding.

The other 7443 brake/park vled does not require modding.

The other 7443 brake/park vled does not require modding.

I of course had to go for the most serious one. Though the other ones are even higher wattage (which doesnt necessarily mean brighter, though still a rough guide). Are the ones you had? Good differentiation between brake and tail?
Ive been on led forums a lot and seen a lot of posts concerning what people buy and what they like. I havent seen anyone close to as popular and well spoken for. The only complaint I ever see is shipping time and cost... Wow did they take forever to come and it sure did cost a pretty penny for shipping! Buying the superbright reverse lights made it sting a bit less (highly recommend). Youll love to know that I almost never use the dimmer switch vlad haha. Good to know I have it though. I also wired up a wire that I could activate the reverse lights at will via another switch just for kicks. Spin people out :)

Mi e was one of their first ones. It had 10 radial 0.5w LEDs and 3 forward 0.5Ww LEDs. Yes there was clear difference between the two modes. Had cops behind me lots of times without being pulled over. The one I was referring to above is less powerful than the triton and on the same page as the triton.

Yeah, I was looking at them... I couldnt resist the flashier tritons. In retrospect, probably the way to go. Bit more practical!

The other 7443 brake/park vled does not require modding.
Link?

I will link it whenI get to work. Its on work pc. ANyhow, if yoh go tontheir website and look at brake/tail lights. The page will have the triton v3 and the other one.

Here you go:
http://www.vleds.com/7443-21-red.html

Now the reason the LEDs look brighter and more intense and can still be seen in bright sun due to its typical spectrum.
Here is a typical spectral response curve of an incandescent bulb:
http://www.phpwebscripting.com/phpwebsite/images/floodcam_mod/incandescent_spectrum_graph.jpg

The red lens of your tail/brake light will filter out all but the red in the above spectrum.

Here is a typical spectral response curve of reds in varying wavelengths, with amber and green as well as the photopic curve which is what the human eye sees.
http://www.spectracine.com/TSL_Artical_1_files/image002.jpg

The human eye does not see red very well, especially the higher in wavelength it goes. Most, if not all the light generated by the LEDs would pass through the red lens, depending on how close the match is.

Nothing like science to back you up. Good stuff Vlad! :)

Sorry guys, i havent been following this thread closely and there may have been some questions raised about my earlier post.
Replacing incandescent lamps with LED needs to recognise that cruise control(and some other electronic units), send a small current in to the stop lamp. with the incandescent lamp, this current is so small (up to 20 milliamp) that it does not develop a high voltage across the filament. The resistance of the cold filament is around one tenth of the hot resistance. For a 21 watt lamp, the hot resistance is say 9 ohm; the cold resistance is 0.9 ohm. A current of 20 milliamp flowing in a cold lamp will give a voltage across the lamp of only 18 millivolt. The electronics needs at least 0.8 volt to detect the lamp is on.
With LED, the voltage drop is around 1.5 volt before any current will flow. So when an LED is used without any precautions, the small 20 milliamp current will give a voltgae across the LED of around 1.5 volt and this voltage is high enough to cause the electronics to sense that the brakes are applied.
To use LED, it is necessary to use an additional shunt resistor across the brake lamp circuit. This resistor is sized so that a 20 milliamp current will produce a voltage of less than 0.8 volt. R then is given by 0.8/0.02 = 40 ohm. The power rating of this resistor would need to be 5 watt. It would be possible to use one resistor in each light bay and thus each resistor would be 80 ohm each and a power rating of 2.5 watt.
Hope this helps.

Rumpfy, you are talking about LEDs of the last decade. V-Leds and other high powered LEDs don't have that issue. The same issue also occurrs when low powered LEDs are used as indicators and the old flasher cans needs to be replaced with electronic ones.

Seriously guys, Using the logical arguments of superior turn on times, Potential reaction times times of 19.1 feet per 200 nano seconds & higher output for clearer differentiation therefore being safer for the weary other driver in sunlight, isn't the main reason for going LED's. It's primarily because of the emotive factor. Put simply, if they didn't look "fully sick" or "pimp", we wouldn't even be having this discussion! Lol !! Don't kid yourselves now.

My whole hous now use Cree LED lighting and its not for the pimp factor, but efficiency. 12W LED is brigbter than 24W CFL.

vlad, invalid point mate, we're talking cars here (petrol specifically) - I don't get an electricity bill for driving my car.

vlad, invalid point mate, we're talking cars here (petrol specifically) - I don't get an electricity bill for driving my car.
All load on your car, whether electrical or mechanical consumes fuel, no matter how small. There was a study in the US about using headlights as DRLs and how much extra petrol you will be using, hence the move to LED DRLs. 2x21W for incandescent bulbs vs 2x14W LED bulbs for brakes and 2x55W halogens bulbs vs 2x 12W LED lamps for DRLs.

Potentially saving a miniscule amount of fuel, and this is the reason why we upgrade to LEDs in our cars eh? Lol!!
vlad, you're missing the whole point of my argument. Look at the big picture, we primarily buy on emotion & then justify our decision with the kinds of logical arguments that you present, myself included!

ADM, I get your point and I have proven with real-life tests the advantages:


Really don't see the point of going LED in the rear tail lights - Is it really worth the extra hassle? Besides I don't know that it would look any better/different behind a stock lens anyway.
Incandesent globes of a standard TJ/KJ are plenty bright enough, which for me atleast is the reason why I'm happy to leave them as is.
The only point I guess would be for the bling or for something custom and unique - Which I suppose is understandable.

The colour of the light is a lot redder than incandescent. No more hassle than changing the incandescent bulbs once a year (yes once a year to keep up the brightness). These LEDs won't need changing for 10 years. I have proven (search on here) the difference between incandescent and VLEDs in bright sunlight. The LEDs were red as opposed to the washed out faint orange of the incandescent. There is no bling effect unless you are within 1m of it and peak inside my light as my lens is clear red instead of diffused red.


I am aware of the superior turn on time being a diode over an incandescent - I could see the logic in something like motorsport where nanoseconds could count for something. My main point is about the time money and effort required to install a superior product behind the stock lenses. Much of the benefit would be wasted IMO, unless you do as Vlad says and pay around $100 for something like Vleds. Just saying it sounds like alot of money & effort for a relatively medium gain. But hey, each to their own!

A cheap pair (SCA brand) of 21/5w bulbs costs $11. Better ones (Phillips) cost up to $20. Over 5 years, which is the average duration people keep their cars (I keep mine for 10), and changing the bulbs every year, will be between $55/5year to$100/5year and $110/10year to $200/10year. As mentioned the VLEDs are once off $100 (and cheaper with group buys to save on postage). Don't know about you but I hate having to remove the carpeting and unscrew the holder, yank out the bulbs, screw holder back in and then refit the carpeting (I have a bad back). The lens is plastic and 3 of my friends have broken the little tabs that hold the holder in place from constant changing of bulbs (these friends don't change their bulbs periodically, just when they blow). They had to get the whole new assembly from wreckers.

Again fantastic points, but really.... who replaces their tail light globes every year?
Perhaps the most fastidious of us motorists? Heck I haven't changed my rear brake light globes for 3 years now and I regularly check them to ensure that they work. Prior to that, they never needed changing, nor am I aware of any legislation that requires me to install new incandescent globes in my tail lights every year.
They are still bright enough and most importantly, are still legal and do a fine job of alerting motorists behind me that I'm stopping or slowing down (I'm sure the OEM central rear LED brake light strip helps here as well).
In the 8 years I have owned my Verada, I have spent $9 on rear brake light globes. Spending $100 on VLEDs doesn't make fiscal sense, even with the touted advantages that they offer over standard globes or inferior grade LEDs, unless of course there was another reason to get them........ ;-)

So, i finally got around to installing LED's in the brake lights.
I got the set from autobarn. There were 2 red types and i got the ones with the extra LED's.
Well, they work extremely well. Intense, as LED's are but also very quick which is where i see the true benefit.

I needed to install resistors because they stopped the cruise control from working. Also got those from autobarn. They get flippin hot in use, so i've mounted them via zip ties away from the wiring!

Believe it or not, but i've already noticed other drivers keeping better distance behind me lol!

Update; these brake LEDS are excellent, I've had no problems with other drivers behind me, however I've just noticed an issue with the cruise control which *may* be related, so I'll mention it here.

When I set cruise at 100 theres no problem, however if I lift the stalk to increase speed a little then speed picks up immediately, but soon settles back at 100. I have to lift and hold until its at about 110 before it will settle back to 105.
If I try to set speed at 80 it seems to fall a long way before picking up.
I only just noticed this behaviour because I usually only set cruise at 100, which is fine.

There are a couple of possibilities; circuit resistance load is not correct, LED/resistors setup have damaged the CC circuit, or its a co-incidence and due to something else.
Anyone else who has a similiar LED setup able to check their CC for me?

Unlikely, i'd imagine the cruise control would either work or not, not 'kind-of-sort-of'. Since the brake light turns it off completely in an on/off fashion, it doesn't affect its operation

Could be a small split in the cruise control vacuum line, pull off the rubber intake boot and the cruise control vacuum line where it connects to the CC motor, suck on it so you can see the butterfly valve open all the way, then put your finger over it to hold the vacuum, watch to see if the butterfly valve starts to close

Thanks Millenium7, I'll check that.
For those of you who are not sure of the benefits of LED brake lamps over standard incandescant, see this research: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/64045/84696.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Especially refer to the graph on page 10 showing that LED's result in a faster response time by 77 year olds than the 23 year olds faced with standard incandescant's! (the age range of the test groups).

I know many people who install LED's in the brake lights, the instant they do CC doesn't work, remove them and they are good to go.

II had V-LEDs in my KW and had no issues with CC what so ever. Low powered ones that cause CC issues aren't bright enough for day time and don't have at least 10 to 1 brightness difference. Standard W21/5W are 440/35 lumens.

I know many people who install LED's in the brake lights, the instant they do CC doesn't work, remove them and they are good to go.
Yes, this is a well known issue, where CC wont work at all. The solution is to install a resistance load.
My CC works as described, but for some reason I'm experiencing these issues.

II had V-LEDs in my KW and had no issues with CC what so ever. Low powered ones that cause CC issues aren't bright enough for day time and don't have at least 10 to 1 brightness difference. Standard W21/5W are 440/35 lumens.
Thanks Vlad, must be an issue with the CC. As for brightness, I've found mine are quite visible but will try to find the lumens rating.
BTW with the VLEDs doyou need to install separate transisters?

Not with the ones I had. They were straight plug and play. They no longer make those. The new one is triton v3 and I have no experience with them. Philips has a supposedly street legal T20 but is not CANBUS safe which in turn means it is not CC safe. According to various articles, they are in the process of making ones that will work with CANBUS and CC.

Well, it's difficult to find the lumen rating for my LEDs, what I can tell the forum is that they're made by Aerpro, model BA15D45R, are SMD type 3020. According to a table I found the 3020 emits 5.4 flux. I don't know if that's accurate or correct. If anyone knows please tell me.
The CC is still stuffed. All I can do is remove the LEDs and resistors and see if it improves.

Try these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brightest-T20-7443-W21-5W-CANbus-CREE-XBD-RED-LED-DUAL-BRAKE-TAIL-LIGHT-BULB-/111176930808?hash=item19e2a955f8


They have a normal online store as well:
http://www.blingworkauto.com.au/product/brightest-t20-7443-w215w-canbus-cree-xbd-red-led-dual-brake-tail-light-bulb/

Try these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brightest-T20-7443-W21-5W-CANbus-CREE-XBD-RED-LED-DUAL-BRAKE-TAIL-LIGHT-BULB-/111176930808?hash=item19e2a955f8


They have a normal online store as well:
http://www.blingworkauto.com.au/product/brightest-t20-7443-w215w-canbus-cree-xbd-red-led-dual-brake-tail-light-bulb/
Vlad, any idea if they would still need resisters installed for the CC?
Does being CANBUS compliant have anything to do with it?

Not entirely sure but these do use Cree LEDs and that one has 6x 5W Cree LEDs totalling 30W. They do have one that is 4x5W Cree LEDs totalling 20W which is what I am about to buy and try:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/W21-5W-T20-7443-CANbus-CREE-XBD-RED-Multi-LED-Stop-Brake-Light-Bulb-Globe-/121522314459?hash=item1c4b4b5cdb

Not entirely sure but these do use Cree LEDs and that one has 6x 5W Cree LEDs totalling 30W. They do have one that is 4x5W Cree LEDs totalling 20W which is what I am about to buy and try:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/W21-5W-T20-7443-CANbus-CREE-XBD-RED-Multi-LED-Stop-Brake-Light-Bulb-Globe-/121522314459?hash=item1c4b4b5cdb
The best measure for brightness is lumens, or flux, not watts. Watts is related to the current draw and is not akways comparable across different types. Also, be aware that installing LEDs in the brake lamps can interfere with the cruise control due to their completely different resistance rating to filament bulbs, hence the need for additional resistors in the circuit.

Yes. Low powered LEDs don't draw enough current hence affects CC. High powered LED do not have such issues as I had the V-LEDs which drew 14W of power. Most low powered LEDs ony draw 5 to 10 W. Cree LEDs have to most lumens per watt so a cool white 5w Cree will have 400 to 500 lumens. Red LEDs will have much lower lumens as lumens is centred around the green wavelength.

Yes. Low powered LEDs don't draw enough current hence affects CC. High powered LED do not have such issues as I had the V-LEDs which drew 14W of power. Most low powered LEDs ony draw 5 to 10 W. Cree LEDs have to most lumens per watt so a cool white 5w Cree will have 400 to 500 lumens. Red LEDs will have much lower lumens as lumens is centred around the green wavelength.
Ok, I see, please post how they go. If they solve the CC issue then i'll pick up a pair as well.

Should get them tomorrow as I opted for express postage.

Got the LED lights and installed them tonight. All I can say at the moment is they are as bright as the incandescent bulbs. Will test out the cruise etc tomorrow. See my ride thread for info:
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105251&p=1630669&viewfull=1#post1630669

Update; these brake LEDS are excellent, I've had no problems with other drivers behind me, however I've just noticed an issue with the cruise control which *may* be related...
This turned out to be unrelated.
A vacuum hose used by the CC had been pinched and had then partially torn.
(Caused by the fool who had botched my engine mount replacement a while back).