Hi guys,

I started a thread a few months back about the viability of a preventative wave spring replacement.

Since I have the 5 speed and these are fairly rare, for peace of mind I decided to bite the bullet and have the wave spring replaced with the solid type.

I am extremely happy I did (pics will explain). The car shifts much better now, most would say that it is due to the ATF flush however the car had a flush about 18,000km ago.

Anyway, this is removed wave spring:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/spetz83/IMG_1107_zps9457c616.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/spetz83/IMG_1108_zps9a8ff330.jpg

And this particular piece was found in the actual sump, so from my logic catastrophic transmission failure was impending. It seems that a few people have found pieces of their wave spring in the sump and manage to keep driving

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/spetz83/IMG_1109_zps4c0852ea.jpg

The transmission was not removed and the whole procedure was done in a day.

Thats extraordinary. You're saying that piece of wave spring had broken off and was sitting in the sump?
Where did you get the work done? A tranny specialist or dealership ..or?
Would you tell us the cost of it please.

I'm also impressed that tranny removal was not required! I would have thought that was mandatory. How do they get access?

As to it shifting better, did they need to replace anything else? Was anything loose or worn? Otherwise i assume new fluid made the difference.

That's right, the little piece was found in the sump and depending on pure luck from my understanding it would likely eventually get picked up with the oil and destroy the transmission.

The work was done at a transmission specialist at a cost of $820 for labor.
$133 for genuine ATF fluid, and I also spent about $320 for a transmission cooler including installation and bypass valve.

What was changed out is what is in that plastic bag, so 2 bolts and some brake tube (not sure what it is called).

The transmission does not need to be removed and I've read posts of people doing this swap DIY at home. The access is via the passenger side wheel well.

As for shift quality, normally I would agree that it's the new ATF but I had a flush done some 15K ago and a lot of that was highway driving. Also prior to that flush the ATF fluid was quite old but I noticed no shift quality improvement after the flush.
I am not sure when the wave spring broke, but 15K km ago the little piece was not down in the sump

How many km has the car done?

193K km

Having the cooler helps to improve the shift quality.

Jimbo I am not so sure as from before the cooler was installed I noticed that the shift quality became better after driving a while, obviously from AT fluid warming up.

Either way I am not an expert in the field. The cooler has a thermostat bypass valve and after a 300km highway trip the cooler was warm to the touch so the fluid must have exceeded the ideal temperature from just highway driving

Before I got my cooler I noticed that in the morning it shifted very smoothly untill the car warmed up. Now with the cooler it is fairly good all the time. Also before the cooler it shift good for a while after the changing the fluid, but with the cooler that new fluid feeling lasts a lot longer.

Spetz, what shift problems were there prior to this? I'd like to know what happens when the spring is partially broken!

You won't know you have a failed spring unless you drain the sump or until it's to late and the broken spring finds it's way to the at fluid pump. I did this job awhile back when I was changing fluid and found a bit of spring stuck to the magnetic drain plug. Also these springs will fail at any time, I've seen them go at 65k km but some won't fail until 250k km it's just the luck of the draw.

Spetz looks like you found a good shop to do the job. When I was looking to have mine done this time last year the best price I got down here was $1900, which is why I took on the job myself.

KWAWD,
I had no shift problems and had no clue that my wave spring was broken. I had a flush done 15K km ago and there was no sign of the wave spring. The replacement was purely peace of mind/reliability driven.
Keep in mind though from what I understand the KW has the upgraded spring.

If I had a rare transmission (5 speed auto, FWD and especially AWD) I would definitely suggest to change the wave spring just in case. If I had a 4 speed I would not have spent the money seeing as they are commonly found.

Danny,
I called around any most transmission specialists would not do this job. Some quoted me ridiculous amounts of money, and others have never done this swap before.
I chose the shop I took it to as they have done them before and the price was reasonable.

Things to keep in mind though is they quoted me for 6 hours labor and by the time I took the car in labor costs went up $12/hr but they honored the quote. Also they said in the end they took much more than 6 hours to do it all so I think the next person to go there will have to pay much more.

Was this in Canberra, or in Sydney?

WytWun this was done at Autotorque Transmissions in Phillip, Canberra

What does the wave spring do?

It breaks and destroys your transmission.

Its intended function I am not entirely sure of.

Just adding the footnote that I've now had the wave spring attended to in my TJ AWD at the same place that did Spetz's car, at 167500km. In my case, it came out in 3 pieces though neither of the smaller pieces (each about 60-70mm long) had made it to the sump.
:happy:

Any difference in shift quality at all?

Any difference in shift quality at all?

Great question Spetz - as a 5 speed TJ owner I wonder - apart from a broken spring breaking the gearbox - is there any symptoms you might notice before or after a rebuild? AKA does the bloody wave spring actually do something?

bb61266, as the original poster of the thread, I asked if there was a shift quality difference because my car started shifting better post wave spring replacement.
Additionally before every now and then the car would jolt into reverse, however since the wave spring replacement (6,000km ago I believe) this has not happened once.

Just adding the footnote that I've now had the wave spring attended to in my TJ AWD at the same place that did Spetz's car, at 167500km. In my case, it came out in 3 pieces though neither of the smaller pieces (each about 60-70mm long) had made it to the sump.
:happy:
What? 3 pieces? Did you have any indication operationally prior that the wave spring was broken?
Can you also say what the price of the job was?

Just adding the footnote that I've now had the wave spring attended to in my TJ AWD at the same place that did Spetz's car, at 167500km. In my case, it came out in 3 pieces though neither of the smaller pieces (each about 60-70mm long) had made it to the sump.
:happy:
What? 3 pieces? Did you have any indication operationally prior that the wave spring was broken?
Can you also say what the price of the job was?

No indication that there was any imminent failure. The only behaviour that I had noticed that appears to have disappeared was a slight noise when transitioning from reverse to forward motion, which I had thought sounded/felt more like an engine mount issue, however I haven't driven the car enough yet to be confident that that noise has completely disappeared.

I was quoted & charged $875 which included the wave spring replacement, a full fluid flush (including all fluids) and the checking and replacement of the (non-standard) inline filter fitted between trans and in-radiator cooler (I have an auxiliary cooler fitted in the return line between the in-radiator cooler and the trans). I elected to accept the fluid supplied by AutoTorque, rather than try and source OEM fluid. The last 75000km has been on non-genuine fluid with no noticeable misbehavior that I could identify, although I have had the fluid replaced about every 25000km in that time...

Any difference in shift quality at all?
I couldn't really say that I'm aware of much difference in the shift quality at this point, though I think the 4->3 tippy downshift harshness I've been aware of ever since I got the car is slightly less obvious than it had been - though whether it is better than it has ever been I can't say.

does the bloody wave spring actually do something?
My very limited understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that the wave spring is used in place of shims (as used in many other automatic transmissions) in holding some of the gear sets in place. In this case, it is specifically associated with the reverse gears.

Interesting. Did you know that there was an online petition pushing Mitsubishi to recall all vehicles fitted with automatics having the wave spring? It's here:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/mitsubishi-f4a51-automatic-transmission-hazard-problem/

Seems to me that if this is a known fault, that Mitsubishi should have recalled the cars or offered free or reduced cost rectification.

This wave spring issue is ridiculous. Apart from any safety aspect, I'm interested in understanding the cost/benefits of proactively replacing the spring as the members above have done versus a transmission overhaul if/when the spring fails.

If its $800 compared to $2000+ then it may make sense to do, in a similar way as it makes sense to fit an additional transmission cooler.

I know that the 5 speed in my AWD is rare, so really need to resolve this issue ASAP.

What is most shocking to me is that people are finding the spring is already broken on inspection! With no obvious symptoms!

KWAWD, I believe the KW series had the upgraded spring already.

Mind you there are plenty of people here who have found a broken piece of the wavespring in their transmission sump and have driven many km afterwards.

My advice is that anyone with a rare transmission (AWD, 5 speed auto) do the preventative change, while people with 4 speed autos just wait until it fails.

Mind you before finding this place I inquired at about 10-15 transmission specialists, most would not do this and the ones that would charged too much.
I drove from Sydney to Canberra to go to this place as they gave a good quote and have done the job before without removing the transmission.

This wave spring issue is ridiculous. Apart from any safety aspect, I'm interested in understanding the cost/benefits of proactively replacing the spring as the members above have done versus a transmission overhaul if/when the spring fails.

If its $800 compared to $2000+ then it may make sense to do, in a similar way as it makes sense to fit an additional transmission cooler.

I know that the 5 speed in my AWD is rare, so really need to resolve this issue ASAP.

What is most shocking to me is that people are finding the spring is already broken on inspection! With no obvious symptoms!



I bought a 2001 sports 5 speed tippy with 173000kms on it approx 2years ago, and had the tranny serviced straight away. He found a bit of wave spring in the sump and showed it to me. He told me of that method of changing the wave spring to this way.
The car has just covered 207000kms and I have not had the spring changed yet , due to not having the money to fix it. Recently spent $1300 on timing belt and all that goes with that. The transmission still changes exactly the same as it did when I bought the car.
I don't drive the car hard going for fuel economy more than performance, maybe that's saving it a bit.

I've just had the wave spring replaced and very glad that I did because IT WAS BROKEN! :shock:

Flip... Had a single break and fortunately the shorter piece had not caused any damage.
This car has only 75,000 k's on the clock and the spring was already broken - thats just unacceptable IMO but seems to be an all too common story.

I've also had an inline filter installed just to catch that fine metal grit that collects over time.
Hopefully my tranny will now give trouble free operation for the rest of its life.

Was that in a KW?

I've heard reports of people finding bits of the wave spring and driving 100,000km.
So it suggests that the wave springs break quite frequently, but it only matters when/if they get sucked into the pump

Was that in a KW?
No a KL.


I've heard reports of people finding bits of the wave spring and driving 100,000km.
So it suggests that the wave springs break quite frequently, but it only matters when/if they get sucked into the pump
Yes, I suspect that many Magnas/Radas on the road may have broken springs with the pieces stuck in the sump or somewhere. Bit of a timebomb scenario.

Where about did they install the trans cooler? Could you show a pic? I've done about 270K on my 4 speed tiptronic and I am hoping this isn't going to happen to me. After the trans oil was changed to felt really smooth and have heard that a cooler would improve shift quality and longevity at any time, period.

What was the brand of cooler? I've searched ebay for these long fin style cylinder coolers for not too much that could fit on the sill under the radiator. there are already holes there. all is needed is a bracket or simply drill another hole to match. it was about 30-40 cm long

wow, the spell check wants to change the word tiptronic to "conniption", bizzare!

Here is a thread with a few pics of my oil cooler
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103811&highlight=

What I suggest is make sure it is installed on the passenger side of the radiator as the A/C fan is on that side and will draw air over the cooler. Since the A/C is on in summer this is a good scenario especially in traffic.

I used a B&W cooler I believe. It is mounted using the generic mounts that came in the kit.
I also installed an inline filter + a bypass thermo valve to maintain the ATF at the ideal temperature (ie, it will bypass the cooler if the ATF fluid isn't hot enough)

Awesome,

That is a large unit, so I can understand where it is placed. Inline filter is a great idea! Do the pipes go from transmission out to cooler then to the radiator or from radiator to cooler?
I personally would go trans-cooler-radiator but I could be wrong.

FWIW, I made my own auxilliary cooling system using two 2nd Gen transmission oil coolers. Together, those cost $50 from a wrecker. I added a bypass thermostat for another $50 or so. Total cost, including bracket fabrication, hoses & clamps was around $125. The bypass thermostat shuts off all external cooling until the fluid heats up to at least normal operating temperature - they're designed for use in cold regions (e.g. Canada). For details, see: http://www.4shared.com/office/Bsu_uonN/TW_VR-X_AWD_Transmission_Oil_C.html. I've done about 27,000km towing a caravan with this setup, including through Nthn Qld, NT & WA.

My auxilliary coolers are configured so that the fluid goes through them before going through the factory one that's built into the radiator. That way, if the fluid gets over-cooled by the external coolers, the radiator one will warm it up again and, conversely, if it's still not cool enough, will get a little more cooling.

Additional cooler will not prevent wave spring failure.
From what I saw it's the metal itself, it's too brittle for the purpose.

Additional cooler will not prevent wave spring failure.
No-one suggested it would...

I was lead to believe that they fixed the problem during the late TL series from 2004 onwards? Can anyone confirm this?

I was lead to believe that they fixed the problem during the late TL series from 2004 onwards? Can anyone confirm this?
I believe they introduced the improved spring type either with the TW or very late in the TL run.
I don't think there would be many TL's with the new spring.

Hi Macropod,

Were the second gen oil coolers separate from the inbuilt radiator one in the 3rd gen? If so, that is a good idea too. I rechecked that sill under the condenser (i said radiator earlier) and there is plenty of room and is directly above the bumper "slits" which would receive awesome airflow...About the over cooling, would it actually do any harm having oil cooler than the "normal" temp? I suppose it would be better flowing but thought having it cooler shouldn't be that bad, you drive from cold every morning and the shift is great anyway!

I believe they introduced the improved spring type either with the TW or very late in the TL run.
I don't think there would be many TL's with the new spring.

Wasn't there major process quality issues in the trans that lead to the demise of the magna? It's a shame really, they were actually nice looking cars with a decent powerplant which contained some great euro emmision standards and really good power. That's just what I have read.

Wasn't there major process quality issues in the trans that lead to the demise of the magna? It's a shame really, they were actually nice looking cars with a decent powerplant which contained some great euro emmision standards and really good power. That's just what I have read.
I've never heard anything like that. I think the series just finished naturally after a very long and successful run!
Mits needed a new car which was the 380.
Actually from my POV having driven the KH since 2000 and now the KL the transmission has always seemed strong and smooth.

The way I have mine setup is is Transmission --> Factory cooler --> Bypass Valve --> External cooler.

I disagree with how Macropod has his setup. For starters, if the auxiliary cooler overcools the ATF it will be bypassed anyway, and second of all when the ATF is too cold the factory cooler would warm it up.

I believe my setup is ideal, as it will either get warmed up or cooled down by the factory cooler as needed, and only if that isn't enough will it start flowing through the external cooler

KWAWD,

I'm glad to hear that, I think I read about it in a couple of articles online. All hearsay then. I like the tk/tl's! what are the 380's like in comparison?

Spetz,

I suppose either way is better than no cooler at all :0) I wouldn't even use a thermostat being cheaper but it would do a better job than no cooler once again.

Cheers guys

I disagree with how Macropod has his setup. For starters, if the auxiliary cooler overcools the ATF it will be bypassed anyway
What utterly clueless rot!!!

Instead of negating my statement so categorically maybe you should attempt to construct a proper sentence explaining your view?

And maybe you should pay attention to what my setup actually is instead of making ignorant claims about it.

Sorry but I have to agree with Macropod here 100%. Spetz, your system and his are pretty much the same only you have 1 cooler where he has 2. Does he need 2, well maybe no maybe yes either way with the thermostat it will not over cool as when the trans fluid temp gets down to a particular temp it will bypass the coolers anyway as will yours.

As for coolers not stopping wave spring failures, again I have to disagree, those customers of mine with coolers have never had any issues with wave springs, planetary gear issues or anything for that matter. I feel (and not this is not a fact is simply an observation from all the years I have been doing this) that keeping the trans fluid at a constant temp is what is the key here, not letting it cycle from normal to over heat and back all the time. I have also noted that with these customers that they have much less frequent trans fluid changes as well.

The trans was not anything to do with the demise of the Magna, this was simply a decision that was made by Mitsubishi to update the line, as many car makers do. By the time the TL and W came out, aside for the fact that for the time they were made they were ugly, they had more than proven reliability but lets face it, was a platform that had been used for nearly 10 years here in Aust and longer in Japan.

Mal, as I mentioned in my deleted post, the difference between our two setups is that mine passes through the radiator cooler regardless, either warming up or cooling down the fluid as necessary, and only in the event of it still coming out too hot will it go to the external cooler.
From my perspective the benefit of this is that the ATF is brought to temp faster when needed, and prevents it never reaching operating temperature (this may not be an issue unless in subzero climates).

The 3rd gen had a near 10 year run, much longer than most cars. I am not sure that in itself shows how successful it was though, given that the current Lancer is 8 years old but isn't being updated due to financial constraints of Mitsubishi.

Either way I feel the 3rd gen is a solid car, mine having over 200,000km and it still looks great and drives very well

the difference between our two setups is that mine passes through the radiator cooler regardless
Once again, you demonstrate your disregard for the facts!!! Have you actually read the detailed descriptions I've posted about my setup??? The only difference between your setup and mine (aside from the fact I use two auxiliary coolers in-line) is that yours passes through the radiator cooler before the auxiliary cooler whereas mine passes through the radiator cooler after the auxiliary cooler. I chose to configure mine that way so as to ensure the ATF being returned to the transmission is as near as I can get it to the optimum temperature. Yours exercises no control in that regard. End of story.

No Spetz, by the time your Radiator warms up enough to even have any impact on the trans fluid the trans itself will be at full operating temp, what you have done is in fact really no different to Macropod. In fact you dont even need the radiator cooler once you have the external, many dont even use it as is the case when I have fitted some and customers have asked to disconnect it.

Do you really think that the radiator cooler, running at around 70 deg will do much with the volume of fluid passing through it, will take the edge off it but not much more. Sure is better than nothing but not much.

<snip>
As for coolers not stopping wave spring failures, again I have to disagree, those customers of mine with coolers have never had any issues with wave springs, planetary gear issues or anything for that matter. I feel (and not this is not a fact is simply an observation from all the years I have been doing this) that keeping the trans fluid at a constant temp is what is the key here, not letting it cycle from normal to over heat and back all the time. I have also noted that with these customers that they have much less frequent trans fluid changes as well.
This is a very interesting point and (to get back on topic) is what I'm currently interested in.
It may be that the customers who have installed additional cooling are also very careful about keeping their transmissions regularly serviced so that the quality of the ATF is always high. That would explain why they may have better outcomes.

I believe that the quality of ATF is degraded over time due to oxidisation and carbon build up, (in part caused by heat due to shear forces and friction). When the quality of the ATF drops then its lubrication and cooling properties are reduced which will then obviously increase wear on the transmission components and potentially shorten their life.
What is the alternative to poor quality ATF? that the transmission components are getting such severe hot spikes under normal driving conditions that they are warping or the metals and alloys degrading? I cant imagine that happening unless the engineers really stuffed up.

As for the wave spring; too many are breaking, the springs are simply inadequate for the purpose IMO. Whats interesting is that on inspection they're found to be broken without any external symptoms. For all we know the cars with additional coolers already have broken springs and the owners wouldnt know it. My broken bit was found in the sump, just like many others have reported. It had to have travelled through the transmission to get there. Doesnt appear to be any damage thank goodness but thats not acceptable after 75k's of normal loads and regular and frequent ATF changes.

If the oxidisation is minimised by controlling operating temps with an additional cooler or by monitoring and changing the ATF out more frequently then the quality of the ATF can be maintained. Either approach should work.

I think the idea that additional cooling will extend the life of ATF is reasonable but I just wonder by how much? This is the unknown part and I'm just not convinced that additional cooling provides much of a benefit under normal driving conditions. If its the difference between, say, 30k change interval versus 35k then I dont think its worth it, and I dont believe the difference will be that large anyway. We just dont know and it needs some testing.
Certainly for extra duty like towing or taxi work an additional cooler would be a good measure, but I cant see a benefit for normal loads.

I'm willing to post an update here about how my ATF quality goes over the next few months. I can monitor it weekly and when I first notice any darkening or dirtiness on the dipstick I can report the mileage. If someone else who has additional cooling can do the same who is just doing normal driving loads then we can compare results.
But they would need to change their ATF now, as mines just been done and is currently perfectly clean.

Interesting points.
I'm currently trying out an idea to possibly avoid a flush..

On my ts 393000k's. Original box, not flushed while I've had the car, irregular changes, no filter change, stock cooler.

I noticed a month ago that the ATF was smelling a bit burnt. Not rancid or the usual 'fear' type ATF smell. A month previously I had overdone towing a load to the tip. (I should have checked the fluid then. I find checking the colour is not all that helpful in this instance as it looked ok on the dipstick.)

I drive 100k's to get a lof of fluid cheaply and then emptied and refilled. I understand then that there is 4.5 liters of clean fluid and 7.5 liters dirty. When back home I changed again. Now it's X % of the original dirty fluid (haven't figured out how to calculate how much is left of the original dirty fluid (?) ). Drove around town for a week and just changed again.

I got some little spice bottles from the opshop.


Once I have done 4 changes I'll take the sump off and clean it and change the filter and do another change.
I'm designing a simple centrifuge using a handcranked mechanism and a circle of ply on which I'll mount the bottles and give them a spin.
Once done I'll post the results in the form of photo and description ( hopefully making a rough calculation and seeing how that matches with the results. )

Here's apic of the set as of now.

first bottle : clean fluid.
second: original dirty fluid drain at mates place to be picked up.
third: second drain after 100k's of 33 % clean.
fourth: third drain after about 100k's of 33% clean and the third drain lot left.
fifth not done yet.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/IMG_1608_zpsnvat1lps.jpg

I drive 100k's to get a lof of fluid cheaply and then emptied and refilled. I understand then that there is 4.5 liters of clean fluid and 7.5 liters dirty. When back home I changed again. Now it's X % of the original dirty fluid (haven't figured out how to calculate how much is left of the original dirty fluid (?) ). Drove around town for a week and just changed again.
To do a full ATF change requires flushing the transmission, which needs about 12 litres of ATF all-up. The transmission holds 8.4 litres of ATF, so replacing 4.5 litres is doing only half the job. Doing it twice as you describe still leaves about 20-25% of the original dirty oil in the transmission (i.e. each replacement changes 53.5% of whatever's there, leaving 46.5% unchanged. 46.5%*46.5% = about 21.5%). Doing it three times? this way in the space of a week uses 13.5 litres of ATF (i.e. probably more than you need for a full flush), but still leaves around 10% of the original dirty oil in the transmission. All this new ATF going through an irregularly-serviced transmission with the original filter and close to 400,000km on it is liable to be loosening a lot of built-up contaminants, too, so your results probably won't be comparable to those of a properly-maintained transmission.

A catastrophic failure at this point would not surptise me. It's gotten this far with a stock cooler and poor maintenance. Penrite ATF. Thanks for the calcs. What % for a fourth change? That would bring the cost up to 160 at ordinary retail unless I can find a source for cheap 20l or 120 when on special. The 'new filter is a cleaned replacement with a new cork casket from a roll of gasket material. Ditto the sump gasket. So no costs there.I have read elsewhere that a flush using cleaners is not recommended for a box that has had a very long run without a flush prescicely for those reasons of loosening up material that can lead to serious damage. So being resigned to that as a possibility I choose to do a 'soft flush' just to return the fluid to a state that most good boxes have. Never completely clean from regular changes, in a hope that it may survive.If it's still going well in a year I'd feel It's survived this episode Meanwhile it is an opportunity to see how the change goes in terms of colour, sedimentation, viscosity and I did see a SG meter in the shop the other day so maybe specific gravity as well and then a flow and a filter test on top of visual, smell, feel and compare them all and see whether there are clear identifiers for a dipstick check.
If it survives, good.
If I have time to do this and come to some knowing, while the box dies, good.

Thanks for the calcs. What % for a fourth change?
After each change the way you're doing it, each change leaves 46.4% of whatever dirty oil was in the system unchanged. So-
1 change: 46.4% unchanged
2 changes: 46.4%*46.4% = 21.6% unchanged
3 changes: 46.4%*46.4%*46.4% = 10.0% unchanged
4 changes: 46.4%*46.4%*46.4%*46.4% = 4.6% unchanged
and so on.

I think the fact you've gotten this far with poor maintenance shows, amongst other things, how conservative MMAL with its servicing schedules, contrary to what others might claim.

Were the second gen oil coolers separate from the inbuilt radiator one in the 3rd gen?
Yes.

About the over cooling, would it actually do any harm having oil cooler than the "normal" temp?
I'm not sure. Running the ATF colder than normal might not be harmful in and of itself, but it is liable to allow the accumulation of condensed water vapour that can enter through the transmission vent. I doubt that would be good for the transmission - hence the fact I run the cooled ATF back through the radiator cooler before it returns to the transmission. Living in Canberra, with its relatively cold winters, that's more of a consideration for me than it might be for someone who lives in, say, Rockhampton.

I've read that too cold of fluid is just as harmful as too hot.
Though this probably only takes into account the harm done during the running period.
However when ATF overheats it loses it's qualities which then causes harm from that point onwards (or rather doesn't protect as well).

I realised after posting that link put up showed clearly little radiator style coolers. I feel like a fool for asking. I didn't think about condensation factor but I suppose running at what, 150 degrees would be a good temp? Any ones guess, but as long as the temp shifts like Mal put is as minimal there should be long service life.

Let's not get to feisty on the cooler location debate. Either way one will cool the other as Mal put it. Opinions will differ and we can all be friends here :)
I don't think the tl/w was THAT ugly more unique but the front being all slope aerodynamic like, with the typical square rear end could look a little quirky to some. The 380 sorted that out considering the front ends looked almost the same..maybe even the same?

What does the wave spring actually do? If it's broken how you feel it in the actually operation? was there ever a time you noticed anything different that made you say "wow, that suddenly just didn't shift right"? With so many trans floating broken parts in the sump it really mustn't give much indication that anything has happened. For all I know there could be a floater in my sump. But after doing numerous oil changes in short times as a home refresh, I've always felt the trans to actually feel very smooth in shift.

I use nulons multi atf and castrol? multi atf...should I use penrite too? Really haven't noticed a diff with the multitrans oils.

Good thread, it's filling in the knowledge gaps.

No-one suggested it would...
Remember the topic is about preventing wave spring failure!

As for overcooling the ATF, there will definitely be a minimum optimal temperature that will ensure the correct viscosity and fluidity. What that is though, is a bit of a mystery, but I'd assume it would be within the normal range of expected operating conditions.
I found an MDS on the Mits SPIII ATF but it only listed the flashpoint, at 160c - (which seems a little low, but maybe its correct).

I'm going to try and obtain the official temps (min/max/optimal) for our transmissions and the SPIII.

OH forgot to ask, what filter was put in the cooler line? "Fuel" filter?

I <snip>
I don't think the tl/w was THAT ugly more unique but the front being all slope aerodynamic like, with the typical square rear end could look a little quirky to some. The 380 sorted that out considering the front ends looked almost the same..maybe even the same?
nah, its ugly.


What does the wave spring actually do?
I think WytWun spoke to this earlier, and he thought it could be about shift quality in low gear I think.

If it's broken how you feel it in the actually operation? was there ever a time you noticed anything different that made you say "wow, that suddenly just didn't shift right"?
Hmm, no ones reported any difference, but I'm still making my mind up. Need to let the box do sny "relearning" first.



I use nulons multi atf and castrol? multi atf...should I use penrite too? Really haven't noticed a diff with the multitrans oils
This is covered in other threads. General consensus is to only use Mits SPIII ATF.

OH forgot to ask, what filter was put in the cooler line? "Fuel" filter?
Magnefine has some (http://www.magnefine.com/html/faq.html)

The best cooling setup would go to the radiator then external cooler via a bypass thermstat. This would give the greatest temperature differential and take the most heat out of the oil. First the hot oil goes through the radiator to take the edge off, then if its still too hot the bypass thermostat would send it to the external cooler.

If you want a simpler system without a thermostat, run the oil first to the external cooler then the radiator. This way if the external cooler overcools the oil it will be heated back up by the radiator.

Flip! Well, heres some further iinput for all those following this issue:

I was having a look at the wave spring that was removed from my transmission, including the broken piece. This piece is about 12cm long, (the whole spring is probably about 90cm in a double layer circular configuration with a diameter of about 9 or 10cm).

I was just holding it and wondering how such a long piece of what is essentially stiff wire migrated to the sump without damaging anything, when suddenly I was shocked to feel a 3.5cm piece just break off the end in my fingers! This was with me barely putting much pressure on it!
I've checked the rest of the spring but there doesnt seem to be any other such weak points.
I've looked at both breaks under a magnifying glass and both ocurred directly on the "crest" of a wave, i.e.: the highest point which is where the pressure would be when the spring is compressed. This looks like a stress fracture (fatigue fracture).

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p629/Kwawd/imagejpg1_zpsad4d0a16.jpg

The best cooling setup would go to the radiator then external cooler via a bypass thermstat. This would give the greatest temperature differential and take the most heat out of the oil. First the hot oil goes through the radiator to take the edge off, then if its still too hot the bypass thermostat would send it to the external cooler.
Sending the ATF through even the built-in cooler is undesirable when both are cold - as is likely to be the case on short trips (less than 5km) or in sub-zero temperatures. That's why bypass thermostats are usually configured to keep the ATF away from the cooling system until the ATF gets hot - they are, after all, typically used on cars whose only ATF coolers are built-in.

nah, its ugly.

*sigh* I must concede defeat.

This is covered in other threads. General consensus is to only use Mits SPIII ATF.

That is true, I have read others say only spIII and to be honest, it is actually CHEAPER than other brands and it is from the spare parts in berwick, just jogged my memory of calling them about it. Now I just need to find a new idle screw and possibly a distributor gasket...

oops stuffed that quote reply up, forgive me I'm very new to using the posting tools.

My shifts became smoother after the wave spring replacement, though that may be due to adding an ATF cooler and doing a flush at the same time (even thought the last flush was only some 12,000km ago).

Additionally, before the wave spring replacement every now and then the shift into R was somewhat jerky. Since the wave spring replacement (now 8,000km I believe) this has not happened a single time.

My shifts became smoother after the wave spring replacement, though that may be due to adding an ATF cooler and doing a flush at the same time (even thought the last flush was only some 12,000km ago).

Additionally, before the wave spring replacement every now and then the shift into R was somewhat jerky. Since the wave spring replacement (now 8,000km I believe) this has not happened a single time.
I dont have a clue about the transmission innards or the full purpose of the wave spring, so cannot even guess if the spring is the reason for the shift quality improving. (Well I should add that a wave spring by its nature is designed to absorb some shock, but this spring has such a low profile I cant see it absorbing much).
I cant see the cooler making a difference unless you're towing or doing all day city driving?
What was the quality of the ATF like before the flush, did it look clean or dirty?

Also, didnt they replace some bolts or somerhing in yours as well?

I would have though that the cooler fluid would be consistently "thicker" there for being more of a cushion that hotter thinned out fluid. Not to mention the lack of expansion on the parts from the heat.

I was wondering myself that if the spring itself was to be removed, would anyone notice a difference whatsoever considering if it breaks, no one has any a clue it actually has broken in the first place.

My wave spring has failed within the last 20,000km (based upon an intermittent chattering noise when first engaging reverse). I found a 40mm piece in my sump at my last service. Kinda pissed off because I'm very fastidious about my maintenance, and I have fitted a 2nd gen cooler which extends the life of the ATF to well beyond 60,000km, but I dont go much past 45,000km anyway, and a magnefine filter. Just hope she dont go bang with the kids in the car at 100km/h. Seeing as the local wreckers all want about $1000 for a 4sp box (and thats trade price...thieves), and the local trans guys seem to like quoting $3000 (thieves), I'm going to collect the fluid every service, and run a magnet through the sump. hopefully I can prevent a total transmission failure.

My wave spring has failed within the last 20,000km (based upon an intermittent chattering noise when first engaging reverse). I found a 40mm piece in my sump at my last service. Kinda pissed off because I'm very fastidious about my maintenance, and I have fitted a 2nd gen cooler which extends the life of the ATF to well beyond 60,000km, but I dont go much past 45,000km anyway, and a magnefine filter. Just hope she dont go bang with the kids in the car at 100km/h. Seeing as the local wreckers all want about $1000 for a 4sp box (and thats trade price...thieves), and the local trans guys seem to like quoting $3000 (thieves), I'm going to collect the fluid every service, and run a magnet through the sump. hopefully I can prevent a total transmission failure.
Sorry to hear that the_ash, I know how disappointing it is to be a fastidious owner and still have this happen. With all these stories I'm convinced the spring can fail very early at at any time, regardless of regular ATF changes or additional cooling.

The spring replacement cost me about $870 at Autotorque in the ACT.
Those fellows have done a few of these now and the man there, Josh, seems to know his stuff and takes pride in his work, so I can recommend them.

It does seem that many people are getting away with broken bits of spring settling in the sump, however as we know a few have had serious transmission damage.

I'm
My shifts became smoother after the wave spring replacement, though that may be due to adding an ATF cooler and doing a flush at the same time (even thought the last flush was only some 12,000km ago).

Additionally, before the wave spring replacement every now and then the shift into R was somewhat jerky. Since the wave spring replacement (now 8,000km I believe) this has not happened a single time.
Hehe, well Spetz, I dont know if it's suggestion or what but I do feel the shifts at low speed are a little smoother. So 1-2-1 and reverse/drive. I took the car around some hills here with some twists and turns and then ended up at the shopping centre car park. Seems very smooth, but the crawl speed shifts seem smoother. Possibly. Actually the biggest improvement came from new engine mounts a while back. Auto shifts are smooth now.

My fluid was in good condition at only 12,000km old or so.
And yes they replaced some bolts and some rubber tube thing.
Josh indeed is quite knowledgeable and I am very glad I took my car there

Ok, after a bit more driving in different conditions I believe the downshift to 1st is a smoother than before.
This is great because that's always been a bug bear for me.
I will try the relearn procedure next few days as that hasn't been done since before the spring was replaced. Maybe the shift quality will improve further.

Sounds like good insurance given these things cost a few grand when things suddenly go bang.

Sounds like good insurance given these things cost a few grand when things suddenly go bang. Exactly, I think its a reasonable investment, although theres no guarantees that something else wont go wrong.
Apparently 5 speeds to fit the AWD are very rare, and typically high k's. Rebuilds are expensive and always inconvenient. Given that a bit of broken wave spring can do some serious damage then its a very worthwhile thing to have done IMO.

[edit] I should add that I wont replace the spring in my KH. Its done 235,000k's and I believe there's still a supply of good condition 4 speed boxes around for it should I ever need one. (Touch wood). Hopefully since its got by for this long then it means the spring is a good one.

I'm still pretty amazed that my broken piece of spring didn't do any damage. Maybe someone who understands the components and structure of the tranny can explain how that might work.