PDA

View Full Version : TS V6 Advance fuel system



ts370000
03-09-2014, 03:53 PM
Hi. First post.

I have a TS (sedan) that has been running almost exclusively on gas for some time.

The petrol fuel system needs an overhul as a result.

It's clear the injectors need reconditioning and I've got that process underway, I've gathered a set (N210H) and will be cleaning them out and checking for install. Then I'll have a second set out of the car to also rework.
1. Are there any other fuel injectors that are compatible?

Before putting fresh injectors in I think I need to replace and clean various other components, least of all 1/2 a tank of old fuel prob by now with so much injector cleaner in it with a lot of gunk in iot which will (?) justy clog things up again.

Short of dropping the tank, which might be what I have to do, my idea is to use the fuel pump to as much as possible drain the tank (any other ways?), install an online fuel filter, that I can readily change the fillter component on, to use as the system eventually cleans itself with fresh petrol and additive while preventing further clogging of the injectors. (?), I'll also be replacing the stock fuel filter (which I have to figure out where it is (?) )

Please comment and also point to other areas of concern to be as sure as possible to revive the petrol system.

Thanks.

TS V6 Advance

magna buff
03-09-2014, 06:19 PM
do you have a repair manual
the TS V6 gas run all the time .. can give these problems


have to recheck this bit
sedan or wagon the tank should be looking like this under neath I think up with straps if no then a sedans is hidden on top of the tank

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh59/magnabuff/Mitsubishi/8e91maa.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/magnabuff/media/Mitsubishi/8e91maa.jpg.html)


you should remove the fuel tank and fully clean it out
injectors to use ....are you sure (N210H) are the right ones
White – 210cc – 1.8L NA – Stamped N210H, casting # INP-057 – High Impedance

TS V6 these claim will do the 3 ltr
BOSCH PART NUMBER 0 280 150 788...... I6G72
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MITSUBISHI-MAGNA-TR-TS-V6-3-L-I6G72-INJECTORS-FULLY-SERVICED-FLOW-MATCHED-X-6-/261578245399?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ce7474517&_uhb=1

replace fuel pump -yes
fuel filter location- . under the brake booster /clutch master to the engine bay fire wall bracket
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh59/magnabuff/Mitsubishi/download1.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/magnabuff/media/Mitsubishi/download1.jpg.html)

ts370000
04-09-2014, 07:20 AM
.....

ts370000
04-09-2014, 07:49 AM
Yes, I suspect I'll eventually have to do the tank. I do have a manual. I don't find it as helpful as hoped.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/inj02_zpsbbafd7a2.jpg

These are the six spare injectors I have (photoshopped image) . 4 are whitish in body with the stamp INP 057 / N210H , 2 are yellow (with yellow pintles) and 0 280 150 788 / N210H. I'm fairly sure that the INP 057 are correct and assume the N210H is what makes the 0 280 150 788 ones correct and assume they are OEM's and perhaps the I6G72 is the original manufacturer BOSCH part #. I don't know. In order to get them all absolutely correct with flowrates (they're all high impedence) I'll assume absent anything to the contrary I've got 6 that are OK. Not tested yet. I'm, bvuilding a test rig. A mate is putting together a pulse generator circuit for me. One site tells me 203.5 cc/m. Not critical but I do have some concerns about valve recession not because I've any symptoms but 'cause I've read it's a concern with running on gas so I gotta get all this done asap(?). Temporarily I wonder if an inline fuel filter from pump to rail which I regularly swap the filter component on will do to get it up and running once I've got the injectors right and leave the tank cleaning till later..

I was hoping not to have to replace the pump. Nevertheless if I have to I will.

Great. Now I know where the fuel filter is. One reason the manual is no help in some instances.

(A couple of other was when doing the water pump. I got better ideas from this site. Ditto the timing belt. (just an addon to the instructions re cracking the harmonic balancer bolt : jam a socket/bar in anticipation of a anti clockwise bolt off and then key the starter on and off straight away. Much gentler than a rattle gun and easier than taking the starter off))

magna buff
04-09-2014, 08:08 AM
fuel pumps on EFI have high pressure .. not sure how you would mount an inline fuel filter
near the tank .....has to be the metal type filter . ...cant just be hose clamped .. needs the banjo fitttings if trying to use a genuine filter
close to exhaust under there I think ...not sure what else is on the market
I noticed this also (. I do have a manual. I don't find it as helpful as hoped.)

my latest research : the N201H are nippon denso brand . should be ok if same flow and impedence

any other problems with the car

note ( old belt and personal experience):nuts:
there is a risk of bending valves with the socket/bar .starter key hit method
the book suggests (just two bolts )taking the starter motor out and locking the flywheel teeth
have done more timing belts this way (two people on the job helps )

ts370000
05-09-2014, 07:07 AM
Good point re HP. I'll look into that. It'll take me some time to organise all these things. I'm leaning more towards dropping the tank and patiently cleaning everything out from tank to injectors. Thanks for the replies and I'll update in time.

It would not surprise me if various other things aren't working as they should but aren't apparent for now.



I hadn't thought through the possible implications of cracking bolt with starter/key/hit. I did work alone and after jamming a short crowbar in and putting an extension on socket/bar with no effect at all I tried the key and it worked. Possibly I should have tried, with the flywheel locked, hitting the bar to shift the bolt with an impact rather than just pressure.. anyway it worked. I'll think twice next time.

ts370000
24-09-2014, 10:02 AM
Progress. Waiting on injectors.

I've been told the sedan and wagon tank is the same. Before proceeding with sorting a cleaned tank, can anyone confirm or not whether the ts/tr tank is the same for the wagon and sedan.

Does anyone have a description or diagram/cutout of the baffle setup in the tank.

ts370000
26-09-2014, 09:35 AM
re Tank : I'll drop a tank from one of the ts wagon wrecks I have and see if it corresponds with what I can find out about the ts sedan tank. The manual only mentions the sedan tank. Someone has told me they (wagon and sedan fuel tanks) are the same but I have no confirmation of that nor can I find any clear statement that they are not the same.

ts370000
01-11-2014, 10:54 AM
Admin : please delete the account for break01. It's me. I made the account because I lost the login details to this one and needed to do a search and to do that created a second account. My apologies for the trouble.
..............


The process of rehabilitating the fuel system is progressing. I've worked out the solvents I'm using and built an air pressure tank which still needs fiiting out with some connectors. Once I've got all things ready I'll restore components from the spares I have and then in one go do the switch over. I've got a pulse generator and other components for building an injector test bench and am in the process of buiding an ultrasonic cleaner and should be able to do the injectors within the time frame. I've got the pintle caps from veals in midvale and about 28 injectors which should be more than enough to get together two sets of injectors as I'll eventually do both advances, which in turn will supply 12 more injectors so I'll have a couple of sets to spare for future swaps. Looking atm for a supply of small bulk pintle caps. I know I can get in bulk from overseas but only in lots of 500+. The orings are easy to source locally and I'm converting a tyre valve into a basket extractor that'll pull the micro-filters without damaging them so the should be no shortage of them. I'll post deatils with circuit diagrams and schematics for the lot when done.

For now : I've dismantled a plenum and started on a second one, including dismantling the components attached to it and the throttle body.

The central section of the plenum has a 'motor' that turns a set of six baffles. The manual doesn't name this component.

1. what is it called ?
2. is there an exploded diagram of it anywhere ?
3. what is the recommended gasket sealant to join the mating surfaces of the three plenum sections ?

MadMax
01-11-2014, 11:06 AM
1. what is it called ?
2. is there an exploded diagram of it anywhere ?
3. what is the recommended gasket sealant to join the mating surfaces of the three plenum sections ?


Is is a system for changing the length of the path that the air flows at low and high rpm. Long track at low rpm, short track at high rpm. Supposedly ups low rpm torque, something the 12 valve 3.0L V6 is sadly lacking.

I saw this system on my TS V6, could not find a description or diagrams of it. I wanted to know how to reset the motor correctly, but had no luck finding that info. Hence I did not remove motor or otherwise stuff about with it.

ts370000
02-11-2014, 12:51 PM
Thanks Max. So : If the baffles are closed air flows along the longer narrower path. ?
If so to set it : to start with the baffles need to be closed when attaching the motor. Then there seems to be four little bumps on the plenum body that align with one on the motor body allowing for some adjustment from whatever the default position is.
Interesting.
There seems to be no major concern about leakage across paths as there are gaps all around. It would be good to read a writeup on the function of this mechanism and exactly how adjustments may be made as well as how to test the whole thing for factory original settings.

+ I wonder what needs to be considered afa gas delivery instead of petrol and whether the whole thing is can be considered redundant?

AQUAR
02-11-2014, 05:36 PM
I had that stale fuel in the fuel tank issue, and so maybe this thread might provide some help.
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104042&page=1

I still have 2 more entries to make in that thread that relate to how much worse the petrol residue (asphaltine!) becomes with time.
And what anti rusting measures you may need to make if the terne coating inside the fuel tank has been acid eaten away.

I had to get another fuel tank - and it still needed a lot of effort to get clean.
Hopefully the fuel tank in your car wreck was empty so that you may avoid all these problems.

ts370000
08-11-2014, 08:59 AM
Thank you AQUAR, I look forward to reading further on this. Unforunately all four of my tanks are degraded to some degree. I still have no confirmation on whether the wagon and sedan tank are completely compatible. I'll study your thread in detail in time.

_____________

While rebuilding a throttle body I finally found what the baffle arrangement on the central portion of the intake plenum is called : Intake Control Valve

TS manual pg. 13 - 2 - 14

Controlled by :

Variable Intake Control Servo (VIC)

which contains a

Intake Control Valve Position Sensor

"The VIC servo consists of a DC motor, flat gear,
worm gear and worm wheel. When the motor revolves
according to the signal from the engine control unit,
the intake control valve opens and closes depending
on the direction of rotation of the motor.

The ECU controls the DC motor drive IC in the unit
and opens and closes the variable intake control valve."

"The intake control valve position sensor is built into
the variable intake control servo and inputs valve
position sensor to the engine control unit.
The ECU performs the valve opening and closing
control by using this signal. The ECU drives the intake
control valve once to a fully closed position (position
where it hits the stopper), when the ignition switch is
turned ON to perform the initial setting."

The 'bush' on one end (opposite the servo) is partially perished, The bush on the servo end is partially worn or more likely surface perish in a hostile environment. Still after twenty years of operating it's probably serviceable as is. I'll dismantle the second one to compare and use the best of both to make up one.

"Variable Intake Control System Operation

When the engine is operating at low speed, the induction control valve is closed, thus air is entering the engine via the long track. As a result intake efficiency is improved and low speed torque is increased due to the inertia effect.

At high speed the valve is fully open and air enters via the short track. In this condition intake resistance is decreased and air speed increased with a resultant increase in output at high engine speed.

At medium engine speed the valve is partially open, this allows air to enter via both tracks. This reduces intake resistance but still utilizes the inertia effect, thus assuring a higher intake efficiency and larger torque at medium engine speed."

later...

MadMax
08-11-2014, 09:51 AM
Pretty much what I thought when I looked at it. Without proper setup instructions though, I didn't want to touch it.

\My TS V6 was pretty gutless at low RPM, maybe it wasn't working. Ancient history now, though.

ts370000
09-04-2015, 12:25 PM
Finally!
Pressure testing fuel injector tester at 3 bars. I've tested components under water. OK. Now doing an overnight test with all plugged uo together.

It's made from bits of a wreck, some computer bits and boxes.
1 to 180 Hz pulse generator (in data switch box), 12 v computer power supply.

Old camper tank for air. A tubular pressure tank 0f 360cc capacity for petrol (gaskets from chem glove cutoffs).

Various new airtool fittings.

(cost so far, under a hundred.)
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/IMG_1641_zpswu7mzyrt.jpg

ts370000
10-04-2015, 08:29 AM
A bit surpirsed how well it's all working first off.

It held pressure well.

Tested this morning with kero and the injector running at 180 hz. The pressure regulator kept it at 3 bars easily and the tank has still a lot in it so I think all components are go.

The main 'problem' now is sourcing just the pintels.

I built a neat basket extractor.* that pulls out the baskets without damaging them at all and after a soak in acetone and a blowdry they are as good as new imo.

(*A tyre valve post with a threaded end after styripping the rubber and slots cut into ti to avoid damaging the inner ribs of the baskets and a nail that expands that against the inner side and a slide hammer that with one whack pulls the baskets out.)

(I'll post a photo later.)

Next : standrdise a measurement of flow and weed out inmjectors that need ultrasonic cleaning.

In the end I bought a cleaner as the prices have been dropping and it'll cost me more to build one from scratch.

(with that, cost so far about 250. With about 30 injectors to get right that's still a considerable saving. six in either car, six as standby, the rest as backups to that.)

AQUAR
10-04-2015, 12:59 PM
@ ts370000
Probably a dum question, but what excactly are you trying to achieve with this test rig.

Are you pulsing the injectors (180 Hz) and feeding them kero at 3 bar pressure?

ts370000
10-04-2015, 01:40 PM
I want to test the fuel injectors for my car for flow rate, spray pattern and leakage.

The system (on the car) runs at 3 bars with petrol. Kero is less flammable, with a higher boiling point so I feel a bit better using that.

My ts138000 with dual fuel ran on lpg for too long without petrol so the whole system is gummed up, (now off the road and driving the ole ts370000(now pushing 395000)) particularly a couple of injectors being out of specs in relation to the others. It's important the injectors all work within about +/- 3% flowrate of each other. It became ridiculous to find someone to do them for me (too old) so I decided to do them myself. I've finally pieced together a working test rig. (A big moment for me.) I'm now working my way through some injectors to work out a benchmark re flowrate in order to be able to isolate injectors that need extra cleaning.

I live regionally where all services cost extra. In this way (general approach to maintenance) I can economically stay on the road, which is critical because of where I live. In the end I'll (hopefully) be able to fully service all my injectors for as long as I have the cars.

I post the photo and description to help anyone else who might like to do the same. It might sound silly but for me who's never done such a thing before I wasn't sure I could. I tried to avoid any easy options but went for all things readily available anywhere at minimum cost.

ps if anyone knows how many times one cylinder on a six cylinder engine fires per second when the engine is at say 2000 rpm please hint at what and why.

edit typos and clarification

KS95Dave
10-04-2015, 09:06 PM
I'll be the mug.
If it's a 4 stroke, every cylinder fires once every 2 revolutions, irrespective of the number of cylinders.
2000 rpm is 2000/60 = 33.333 revs/sec; every cylinder fires 33.333/2= 16.7 times/sec.
Or is the Friday night gin&tonic blurring my logic....

ts370000
11-04-2015, 06:05 AM
Cool. Thank you.


Hmmm... so at 180Hz I'm simulating an engine running at 21000 rpm. :) . When watching youtube vids of injector flow testing I hear them buzzing along like that so that's what I choose. I assume then that at a test cycle of 1 minute that does no harm. Also to get a clear view of the spray pattern I can't catch a view of it when running slow. Anyway, it works, so that's what matters I suppose.

ts370000
12-04-2015, 03:31 PM
first lot : Four injecotrs of seven passed easily, one had poor flowrate, two wouldn't work at all.
After thorough ultrasonic cleaning one more came good. Before giving up on the last two, which by now were running but not with a good flowrate, I ditched the water, soap, eucalyptus oil USC mix and poured in a bottle of degreasing fluid and put them through 3 cyles of USC after soaking them in acetone for a couple of hours followed by three of USC in water mix while pulsing the injectors* and finally : a last layer of gunk was coming out and after that with a sixth good I stopped for the day. Painted and oiled and ready for swapping. Back at it during the week with the rest of the injectors,..

* this creates an interesting backwash action so the gunk dribbles out the top of the injectors while the insides are being ultrasonically cleaned


In additiom to the above I found the following useful :

A box of disposable gloves, a couple of syringes, large and small, (chemist)
Pure soap flakes (I got some cakes from woolies and grated them)
Eucalyptus oil, Fine Machine oil, distilled/demineralised water

The microfilter/basket extractor:

Tyre valve threaded, cut, bent to fit into basket without touching the ribs, brass pin to spread and grip the inside, slide hammer thing that screws onto the 'extractor'. Whack.. : a reusable basket.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/IMG_1650_zps7xgd59ot.jpg

ts370000
20-04-2015, 11:53 AM
When I disconnect the battery to do something (on the ts370000) then reconnect it runs rough till the ECU has relearnt, or whatever it does, to compensate for flaws.

I just fitted a set of reconditioned injectors and it now starts and runs very well compared to before. I expected that but the point is that it proves one can independently have a workable testing/cleaning setup at a cost that saves money. I can now confidently do all my injectors at any time with no further cost as the rig is built. *****.

I found that if I go to a car parts shop to buy a set of 'o-rings for fuel injectors' I pay much more than if I go to a supplier and ask for 'a # of such and such sized fuel resistant o-rings'.

I found microfilter/baskets can be successfully extracted, cleaned and reused using above cheap easily made tool.

With the cost of cleaning fluids I estimate now that a set of six injectors can be re-conditioned by an independent for less than 20 dollars.

edit add :

Some further results :

It starts much quicker now.

The idle is right, instead of seeming to depend on temp.

On a slight incline whereas before the car would teeter on stalling when taking off slowly, now with the slightest depression of pedal it responds smoothly all the way.

______

I expect fuel consumption to improve.

ts370000
11-05-2015, 02:32 PM
Dropped two tanke. One from the TR 1993 (300000k's) and the one from the ts370000.

Both to my surprise were sparkling clean inside.

The TR had some exterior surface rust near the filler tube. The TS has spent most time inland and the TR near the sea.

The TR (executive 1993) has the pump and the sender unit separate. :
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/IMG_1658_zpsdvjgffnu.jpg

The TS (1994 advance) has them combined. Care has to be taken in changing the pump when combined as the sender unit components look delicate.

Anyway, it went well. I got an idea now of the baffle arrangement.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/IMG_1659_zpsofm9quez.jpg

can't say there was anything particularly tricky about removing or installing the tanks. About 5 hours. Raising the car hign enough to slide the dropped tank out and in. Properly chocking the front wheels.


( one thing I haven't figured out is testing a fuel pressure regulator so I bought a new one to use as on car comparison test. 200 bucks, simlarly I'd like to get my hands on a new injector )


re the injectors.

Once I fitted the reconditioned injectors the car for the first time in a long time was starting almost instantly.

>>> My big surprise there was that the lifter noise that has been puzzling me on and off for years was now completely gone and has stayed gone. It seems the injectors were causing that racket! Who'd'a thunk it?

Also, after a week I filled the tank (as opposed to putting in 20 bucks a time) and then the engine started to be long in starting. This made me concerned about the pump and the pressure regulator. I let the fuel run down and found that when it was approaching empty it started to start straight away again. I put 20 l in and then it started to go south again, this time not to recover when approaching empty. However there is one peculiarity : irrespective of how much fuel in the tank, in the morning, every morning, the engine started very quick. I don't understand the why of it. Anyway, dropped the tank and found it didn't need cleaning at all, replaced the pump (but not the pressure regulator, I've found with all this it's a good idea to do things one at a time with some time in between to evaluate results) and it seems to be good again.