Hello,
I am writing this message because I got ripped off by a dodgy garage in Southport QLD.
I bought a Mitsubishi Magna there, and after a week, I got a problem with the automatic gearbox which should have been covered by the statuory warranty (class B vehicle so it is 1 month / 1000 kms).
I dropped the car in the garage last Monday. I asked for a receipt but they told me they don't do this in Australia (I am not Australian, so I am learning step by step the laws here but I am still lacking of knowledge ...)

And the next day, they sent me an e-mail saying that I drove more than 1000 kms and therefore the statuory warranty is not valid anymore. I just used the car during one week for small trips, and at most I drove 200 kms. So I deduced they tampered my odometer, they attached a picture of the odometer to "prove" that I drove more than 1000 kms.

I would like to know which data it is possible to extract from the on-board computer of the magna (it is a 2005 model), knowing that when they sold the car, I had 3/4 of the full tank of fuel, and I did not have to refill it during the week I used it.

So does the on-board computer have statistics it is possible to extract to prove that I did not refill the tank of the car ? (then there is still 1/4 of the tank remaining, so it is easy to prove that I could not have driven 1000 kms with only 3/4 of the tank because the average consumption was around 13l/100kms at the time I dropped it to the garage) ?
Or even statistics about how many kilometers I drove at one particular date, or something like this ... I guess if they tampered my odometer, it should be possible to show that some data are inconsistent.

I am staying on the Gold Coast - Queensland, so if you know a garage who could read the data from the on-board computer, it could be great too.

Thank you,

Mathieu

Mate, it doesn't matter how much fuel is or isn't in the tank, your sale contract should have the KMS reading on the day of sale, are you claiming they then tampered with the ODO AFTER you bought the car? That seems like an extreme length to go to in order to get out of a warranty claim.

are you claiming they then tampered with the ODO AFTER you bought the car? That seems like an extreme length to go to in order to get out of a warranty claim.
Thats how i read his post.

If you believe you did not drive 1000 k's then contact the Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribuna (http://www.qcat.qld.gov.au/)l to find out what can be done.

Also, what is wrong with the gearbox? If you describe the problem maybe the forum can help.

my bet is there is no way the would have removed the speedo and wound it forward. Sorry to say but after working in the car industry for more then 15 years that type of behaviour has stopped due to the huge < from memory $30K + possibly even more > plus the fact they loose their dealers licence and the stuff around to actually have the speedo wound forward they would not do it just to put it over 1000klm mark. As KWAWD said you can always go to the QLD Civil and Admin Tribunal but that in its self will be a long drawn out process. If you PM me the name of the yard that you got the car from i should be able to give you some background on the yard if i have dealt with them before as i have dealt with alot of different yards and wholesalers on the coast. Also as asked what is wrong with the gear box??? It could be as simple as needing a flush. It's hearing things like this from GC folk that buy Magnas from car yards and auctions that pay top dollars for them didnt allow them the chance to look at my TJ2 as i can prove everything is kept perfect on my car and has been since we owned the car

http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/marketplace/make-a-complaint
The Office of Fair Trading is the Government department you need, sounds like they are taking you as a fool so try to reason with them but get in touch with either suggestions so far to know your rights ..... DON'T accuse them of anything just stay steadfast in your belief/argument you could not have driven 1000kms.

And the next day, they sent me an e-mail saying that I drove more than 1000 kms and therefore the statuory warranty is not valid anymore. I just used the car during one week for small trips, and at most I drove 200 kms. ...

I would like to know which data it is possible to extract from the on-board computer of the magna (it is a 2005 model), knowing that when they sold the car, I had 3/4 of the full tank of fuel, and I did not have to refill it during the week I used it.
Since no Magna can do 1000km on a single tank-full of fuel, I'd suspect there's a miss-recording of how many km the car had on it when you purchased it (or they checked a different car). As others have said, it is unlikely anyone has tampered with the odometer. If you have people who can account for your movements over the period, it should be pretty easy to demonstrate that you haven't done 1000km+ in that time.

there's no doubt it can be done : DIY Odometer Reprogramming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq6SlyVE4zQ
wite down everything concerning the issue. don't accuse. contact fair trading. don't take anything apart to investigate. If it comes down to investigating a rep from fair trade and mechanic will be there and the findings must not be interpreted as anything you might have done.

What are the facts? What was the odometer reading when you bought it, what does the sales reciept say, what is the odometer reading now (can you confirm this in person)?

When I bought the car, the odometer reading was 171 331.
On the picture they sent me by e-mail, I can read 172 344.

The car is still there because I want to prepare everything before going to take my car back, because if I take it back so it will be much more difficult to prove anything, so I could not confirm this in person but if I go there I will have to take the car back.

You are right, I should not jump to conclusions too fast. (but yeah, modifying a digital odometer is not so difficult, it is possible to find tools and tutorials on the Internet ...)

I already lodged a complaint to Fair Trading. But now I want to gather proofs, since I know it can be long before getting investigations and I am afraid at that time it would be too late.
I tried to find informations on the internet about what kind of data it is possible to retrieve from the Magna on-board computer, but I could not find anything, so that's why I was asking a question there (I don't have the manual)


For informations, the problem with the gearbox is : when I am driving, the N led is blinking every second, and the car is not changing gear properly. For example when I am driving at 50 kph, it keeps switching gear (probably between 3 and 4).

Even if we suppose the odometer readings are correct, being a mere 13km over the 1000km can easily be accounted for by (a) the distance you might have needed to travel to return the car after the problem became apparent; and/or (b) their test drive(s) to confirm the problem. In other words, the Office of Fair Trading would be likely to conclude the problem occurred within the warranty distance, especially if you reported the problem to the dealer before returning the car. The warranty is for the time & distance in which the problem has to occur, not including any distance the car might have to travel to return it to the dealer.

If this is the case then go to fair trading in QLD because simply the transmission is in ' Limp mode ' for what ever reason and it doesnt seem that a flush < i am sure Malcom will confirm this > will help the problem as myn did this and it was dead and nothing could be done but a rebuild and this ios perhaps the readon they are hiding from doing this i have replied to your PM and will help you if you can supply more info on the yard that sold you it

When I bought the car, the odometer reading was 171 331.
On the picture they sent me by e-mail, I can read 172 344.




Was this the actual odometer reading that was on the car when they delivered it to you or is this written down on the contract for sale of the car? It sounds like the person who did the sale of the contract up has simply written down the klm's that the car had on it when it come into stock and the not the actual klm's the car left the yard with. Since most yard cars are used as drive cars for the staff it could well be that the car was a drive car for one of the staff and no one put the correct klm's down at the time of sale

you may want to look very carefully over the sales agreement and warranty information,
If its transmission related you may have no cover.
Even brand new cars off the showroom floor (Ford, Notably) have it noted in the sales contract that there is no warranty cover on transmission failure.

you may want to look very carefully over the sales agreement and warranty information,
If its transmission related you may have no cover.
Even brand new cars off the showroom floor (Ford, Notably) have it noted in the sales contract that there is no warranty cover on transmission failure.
What? Even if thats true, they cannot escape their statutory responsibility.

I checked myself after buying the car, and the mileage was the same on the contract and on the odometer

Yeah I guess, the problem was expensive to repair, otherwise they would not have taken so big risk to rip me off like this ...

Yeah I guess, the problem was expensive to repair, otherwise they would not have taken so big risk to rip me off like this ...
Well, you don't know what the problem is yet, it could be something simple. You said its going into limp mode?
Which model is it? I know my KH will do that if someone hoses the engine bay and gets water in the harness connector for the transmission. I doubt a dealer would have the expertise to diagnose the problem.

If the dealer is doing nothing then i'd recommend you follow up with your claim and at the same time get a reputable transmission shop to verify the current k's in writing for you and do an assessment of what the problem may be.

Just for update, I could get some legal aid, I got an appointment the 2nd of October (last Thursday) at 11h45 am.
Before that, I tried to get my car back. When I arrived in their office, I asked them to give me a receipt to say that I was taking the car back, with date and time. They said they don't have to do that, the same way they said they don't have to give me a receipt when I dropped my car ... but I learnt later that they should have done this. Normal garage should give a receipt with date and mileage when you drop you car.
After 10 minutes of negotiation without any result, I decided to take my car anyway. (Time was running out before my appointment with the legal aid). When I tried to start the car, it was out of battery ... after staying there for only 1 week and a half ... I started stressing a bit because I may not have time after to catch a bus to go to this appointment. One guy of the garage helped me to start the car by connecting a "booster" to the battery, so I could start the car. I got the surprise to see that it was out of fuel ... When I dropped it there at least 1/4 of the tank were remaining ... At that time, I said that I can't take any risk to get a problem with the car on the way (to be sure to be on time with the legal aid). So I put the key back on their desk, and told them I will come back the next day or on Saturday. Then I walked away from the shop. The guy started chasing me to give me back the key, saying "we don't want to take any responsibilities on your car !", but I was already too far away and I said "sorry I will come back later".
He wanted to put pressure on me, and he said "ok, so I will put the key on the car", threatening me that the car could be stolen easily this way. At that time, I had a camera to take pictures of any proof showing up, so I took a shot of him and said "yeah, please do so". He got pissed off and throw me the key on the side-walk. I took the keys and left.

I came back on Thursday evening with a friend to help me to start the car using jumper cables, around 7h30 ... When we arrived, they were still there. The guy who threw the keys on the side-walk saw me and came to talk to me. He was very aggressive :
"Hey picture man, you wanted to be a smart ass this morning. You humiliated me on front of my girlfriend (working in the office at that time), and in front of my father !" etc ... he was looking to fight with me. He took a close shot of me with his cellphone and asked me if I was happy to be taken on photo by him (as a "revenge" of the picture I took of the scene on the morning) ... anyway I did not answer to his provocations, and at the end, we took the car back. He offered me a "deal" which was keeping the car to have a look at it and if it was a small problem, he was ok to repair it. Which I refused since I don't trust them anymore, I don't know his definition of "small" problem, and I want my statutory warranty back + the problem repaired anyway.

About the legal aid, he wrote a letter on my behalf that I sent to them. He also said that, according to the common law principle that a product must be "fit for purpose", and having it working for less than 2 weeks is therefore not being considered as "fit for purpose".

I noticed, when I took the car back, that the on-board computer has been reset (I took a picture of it). I don't know if it was because the car was out of battery or if they did something to it ... does someone have informations about that ?

The trip computer and fuel econonmy will have been reset if the battery were flat enough but will not effect total klm's travelled but it may explain why the fuel gauge was a little lower perhaps

If the battery was completely discharged, the computer would re-set. It would also re-set if the battery had been disconnected. In any event, as I said earlier, the fact that your car had a mere 13km over the 1000km warrantly distance when the shop photographed the odometer is of little relevance - easily accounted for by them driving it (as the reduced fuel level suggests) or by the distance you had to drive the car back to their shop after the problem manifested.

Question: Did you contact them before returning the car? If so, what did they say to do - wait for them to pick it up or bring it back? I wonder what they'd have said re warranty if you'd driven to Rockhampton (~750km) and the problem manifested there?

is it possible to match the original instrument cluster to the VIN of the original car from the factory?

you may want to look very carefully over the sales agreement and warranty information,
If its transmission related you may have no cover.
Even brand new cars off the showroom floor (Ford, Notably) have it noted in the sales contract that there is no warranty cover on transmission failure.

Sorry but this is patently WRONG. Everything except windscreens and tyres are covered by manufacturer's warranty with cars and I reckon if your windscreen cracked for no reason you'd still get it replaced by the manufacturer. You are covered by your written warrant but this is surpassed by legislation protecting consumers in that a manufactured item must be "fit for purpose" and perform for a "reasonable length of time". In effect, if the warranty says it only lasts for twelve months then you are still entitled to warranty protection after that period has expired if the fault would not what a reasonable person would expect.

The trip computer and fuel econonmy will have been reset if the battery were flat enough but will not effect total klm's travelled but it may explain why the fuel gauge was a little lower perhaps

Actually, after the battery was recharged, the fuel level still stayed the same ...
I have no idea on how they used all this fuel, because the car is not smoothly driveable.

If the battery was completely discharged, the computer would re-set. It would also re-set if the battery had been disconnected.

I don't know the meaning of completely discharged, because is was still possible to unlock the doors with the electronic system. And still some led were able to be turned on when I try to start the car.
Would they need to disconnect the battery to tamper the odometer ?



In any event, as I said earlier, the fact that your car had a mere 13km over the 1000km warrantly distance when the shop photographed the odometer is of little relevance - easily accounted for by them driving it (as the reduced fuel level suggests) or by the distance you had to drive the car back to their shop after the problem manifested.

Question: Did you contact them before returning the car? If so, what did they say to do - wait for them to pick it up or bring it back? I wonder what they'd have said re warranty if you'd driven to Rockhampton (~750km) and the problem manifested there?

Yes, it is a good advice, thank you for this. But I am not sure on how to "prove" that the problem could have happened "before the 1000kms" ... and the garage is just 5 km from my home

Is it possible to claim that they drive the car themselves ? I asked for a receipt when I dropped the car, but they said they don't do this here (and at that time, I did not know that regular garages would give a receipt, I just assumed that "here" meant "in Australia" and I could not force them to give me one ...). I don't know if it is mandatory to give a receipt (would it be possible to claim that they also did a mistake in the process by not delivering a receipt to me and a copy to themselves ?)

I don't know the meaning of completely discharged, because is was still possible to unlock the doors with the electronic system. And still some led were able to be turned on when I try to start the car.
Trying to start the car with an almost-discharged battery could drop the current available for anything else so that the computer reset.

is it possible to match the original instrument cluster to the VIN of the original car from the factory?
No. In any event, the likelihood they could find a cluster showing just over your warranty distance is remote.
Would they need to disconnect the battery to tamper the odometer ?
Others have posted links showing how to re-set an odometer by re-programming. You'd probably want to disconnect the battery for that. However, to merely add kms, one probably needs nothing more complicated than an electric drill or, at most, running the car with the wheels off the ground (could help explain the drop in fuel levels, too).


Regardless, if you can satisfy Fair Trading that you'd never refilled the car, I expect you'll be on pretty solid ground.

Regardless, if you can satisfy Fair Trading that you'd never refilled the car, I expect you'll be on pretty solid ground.

Yeah, but I did not know how to prove this, even getting a sample of the fuel and have it compared with the fuel they put in their car is not a really valid proof ...
And anyway now, I had to refill it to be able to drive the car back home, since it was out of fuel when I took it from the garage ...

You don't have to prove it, all you need do is persuade them that, on the balance of probabilities, you drove less than 1000km. Saying you didn't even need to fill up is a significant part of that.

In addition, there's the question of how likely it is for someone to have driven more than 1000km in a week. To do that, you'd need to averaged 143km/day, which is quite high. In Qld, for example, the average is about 14,900 km/annum (see: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/9208.0). That works out to 41km/day, or a good 100km/day less than the car yard is making out. Based on the Qld average, it takes about 24-25 days to do 1000km. If your driving was anything like the Qld average, you would only have done around 280-290km in a week. of course, you might have done a bit extra enjoying your new ride, but 700km+ extra seems unlikely. So, you see, it shouldn't be too hard to persuade Fair Trading that you probably did way less than 1000km in a week driving around town.

Yeah, but I can have the logs of my work (the internet activity from my computer in the office) to show around what time I arrived and what time I left the office.
Then I could get the logs of my computer at home, showing when I was using the computer, especially after coming back from work. (there is a password, so I am the only one who can use it)
I had my roomates testifying of my staying time at home. So I can show that I drove the car at most 8 hours totally, and to go to work only and once to go shopping. Which makes it impossible to do all these kms (125 kph average speed if we consider the driving time, or anyway less than 300 kms if we consider just the distance)

On tuesday, I got my car checked by a decent garage (M1 Safety Certificates), and they found the following problems :

- Steering wheel grip to be insecure
- Left hand brake light is out
- Brake pedal is worn
- Rear engine mount is split
- Both rocker cover gaskets are leaking
(altogether, could be around 600$ to fix ...)

All of these problems make the car not road worthy, but they (the dodgy car dealer) delivered a RWC .... which mean they obviously made a fake certificate. So I should be able to use this against them, since they increased the mileage of 1000 kms, but the RWC is valid for 2000 kms.
And also, I hope it is easy to show that these problems should not happen in the 1.5 week I used the car (except for the brake light maybe ...)

They also found a "major internal failure of the transmission", they got some quotes from different garages for me, and it could go from 2500$ to 3000$ .... The mechanic told me that they may have to change the whole transmission (but it is not a precise diagnosis, and they have nothing to win in this quote since they won't repair themselves the problem. I believe I can trust them then.)
I am planning to make another garage read the error code for the transmission from the on-board computer. And the precise problem should hopefully show that it should not happen in 1.5 week and that they probably hid it when they sold the car.

Seriously, you are making a lot of accusations that cannot be proven or substantiated in any way, Im sure the way you carried on when you went back and left the car there meant they lost any goodwill they may have had.
Bottom line, the roadworthy items you now have identified should have been addressed before sale, and the transmission didn't just cark it at 1001kms, its something that would have been apparent before you bought the car.
At least you now have the inspection showing they may have been "creative" when doing the original RWC, take this to fair trading and get them to ask some serious questions of the dealer.
Remember, these guys probably sell cars all the time, they are experts at knocking back warranty claims like yours knowing most people would just go away. I see now that you have no option than to get the authorities involved.

Believe me, they had no goodwill to help me at all ... I am someone quite diplomatic and very calm, and I hate having to do this kind of fight and negotiation ...

Im sure the way you carried on when you went back and left the car there meant they lost any goodwill they may have had.
A dealership that would refuse a claim for being 13km over 1000 by the time they got the car back has no goodwill worth speaking of. Even if the distance were valid, and that's doubtful, any dealer with half a brain would know the problem would logically have become apparent before then.

the transmission didn't just cark it at 1001kms, its something that would have been apparent before you bought the car.
possibly, but not necessarily. It evidently wasn't apparent to the OP at purchase time.

Remember, these guys probably sell cars all the time, they are experts at knocking back warranty claims like yours knowing most people would just go away. I see now that you have no option than to get the authorities involved.
Indeed.