So, i have a bunch of parts and a TE magna.
I started sizing up the turbo and the missus called me an idiot.
In her words "Why are you doing that, its a daily, dont spend any money on it"

So, now i am going to do it as cheaply as possible :D

What im looking for is why it wont work.
Doesnt need to be a showcar, doesnt need to make tonnes of power, its just for shits and giggles because i can.

I have;
1 x Manual TE V6 Magna
1 x Garret 3271R Turbo (internally gated)
1 x Turbosmart raceport BOV
1 x Turbosmart FPR
1 x Autometer boost gauge
Assorted bits of silicone hose, steel pipe ect.
Lots of experience with stupid projects, fabrication, wiring ect.
Lots of tools, TIG, MIG, ect (mech by trade)


My plan is to knock up a manifold to sit the turbo over the gearbox, I will J pipe straight off the rear bank so i can use the stock rear manifold.
That pipe will run closely around the backside of the bellhousing, over the top of the gear shifter cable bracket. It will have a V band clamp to join onto the front manifold pipe.
The front manifold will need to be fabricated, i thought about J piping that one too, but the space it takes up is where i want to run the turbo dump pipe. Fabrication is easy...
The 2 manifolds will join over the bellhousing and the flange for the turbo will sit over the gearbox, roughly between the thermostat housing and the engine mount.
The turbo will sit reversed, with the compressor towards the firewall.
The turbo dump will come out of the turbo, between the radiator hoses and slip neatly past the front exhaust manifold and down under the car in the stock exhaust position. It'll join onto the standard exhaust.
The intake pipe for the turbo will do a 180 and come past where the battery used to be (or will be but a smaller battery) A pod can go in the front bumper somewhere, I'll put the MAF inline there somewhere.
The outlet from the turbo compressor will go straight into the throttlebody, no intercooler.

So far, everything will work.
My big question is whether the MAF will max out? When the injectors will max out?
Can I just put 1 extra injector in the plenum to be activated under boost only? (dodgy but meh, what evs)
I was thinking about bringing the fuel pressure up to squirt a bit more out of the injectors.

So, be like my wife and tell me why it wont work, so i can figure a way around it.

I'm getting comfortable, this looks like its going to be fun to watch.

I hope it works out for you, but I don't know much about turboing myself.

I'm getting comfortable, this looks like its going to be fun to watch.

I predict 20% chance of awesomeness, 50% chance of a WTB engine post within 2 months, 29% chance of engine bay fire and 1% chance of Godzilla attack, because who knows!!!!

I can only comment on some ECU related issues and a couple of matters I've seen reported in other threads/fora...


My big question is whether the MAF will max out? When the injectors will max out?
MAF should cope as long as it is upstream of the turbo and there is sufficient piping between the turbo inlet and the MAF outlet to ameliorate back-propagation of turbulence - exactly how much separation is required I can't tell you but weird AFR behaviour happens when there's not enough separation. While a TE MAF could be run downstream of the turbo, as it doesn't have a barometric pressure sensor, it still needs to be adequately separated from the turbo to avoid turbulence and it also isn't designed for boosted use and will leak (under boost though this isn't as bad as leaking under vacuum) and the MAF calibration in the ECU may also need adjustment. One advantage of the downstream configuration, even though it would have its problems, is that the MAF's IAT sensor would provide a means to scale back ignition advance as temperature rises... There is also a MAF related set of limits in the stock ECU which need to be increased.

I don't know whether the 6G74 injectors will fit the 6G72 but if they do that would get you a bit more than 20% more flow without being too hard/expensive to find. You might need a fuel pump upgrade too.


Can I just put 1 extra injector in the plenum to be activated under boost only? (dodgy but meh, what evs)
7th injector would need an interceptor or standalone ECU in order to have any manageable control as far as I can see. It would also need to be located so that fuel gets delivered evenly across the cylinders.


I was thinking about bringing the fuel pressure up to squirt a bit more out of the injectors.
Has been done (though more to NA cars - people turboing usually go straight for bigger injectors). If significant pressure increase, the acceleration enrichment and deceleration enleanment mapping in the ECU needs adjustment.


So, be like my wife and tell me why it wont work, so i can figure a way around it.

Lots of things can be made to work with sufficient resources (money/knowledge/skill/time etc)... ;)

You will need a tunable ECU of some sort as the changed air supply will be enough different to stock, especially with regards to temperature if you don't incorporate an intercooler, to run you into tuning related problems.

As you have a factory manual, a H or J series Magna ECU can (IMO) adequately meet this need as long as boost levels aren't extreme - say within the boost tolerances of the stock engine - otherwise you'll need a piggyback or standalone ECU.

Piggyback or standalone ECU would allow use of additional sensors (such as barometric pressure sensor in a TE).

:facepalm

:facepalm

If you don't have anything useful to post... don't post.

My apologies.
When I got to the point of dioing it cheap that was basically my feeling. Ok, it can be done. What about all considerations re extra stress on components, brakes, suspension, pistons,... What about the person who gets hands on a not quite right one later down the track and thinks it's all right. The costs add up all down the line, let alone a possible replacement? I'd rather sit this one out and read the discussion. In the end, if cost is a factor it's probably going to be the main decider.

If you have the skills, and willing to spend a bit of money in order to have a bit of a play around go for it.

Just be aware with boosting a magna on a bang for buck basis, it seems a case of the less buck used the sooner you get the bang!

If you don't have anything useful to post... don't post.

I have been around many forums for a long time, im not precious about comments like that, tbh, I thought it was a good response.

Thanks for your replies Wytwun.

The MAF 'should' be ok, i think.
I plan on having it on the suction side of the turbo, I have encountered the turbulence you mention while playing with Nissan MAF's.
The pod intake should be a decent length away from the MAF, It'll be in a relatively straight piece of pipe, then there will be a 180 degree bend into the turbo inlet.
That should go a long way to smoothing out any turbulence.
The last trick up my sleeve there is some honeycomb material i have that i can put in the pipe before the MAF, after or both to smooth out the airflow.
I have had to do it once before on a blow through MAF on a skyline to resolve issues.
I only plan to run about 10psi, so hopefully i can get away without having to remap the ECU, i would like to leave it as is.
I didnt consider the injectors from the 3.5 or 3.8L that could be a very good option for some extra flow.
I suppose it will make it a bit richer 'off boost' but i can live with that. I'll see if i can dig up some flow rate specs for them.
Tbh, that's a better option than bumping up the pressure.

I just had a crazy brainwave that i could maybe figure out a way to tap 3 injector signals (every 2nd pulse) and use that to drive the 7th injector, using the factory ECU pulsewidth to control it.... Hmmm, maybe needs some more thought...

I want to try and avoid getting a piggy back or standalone ECU, at that point it pushes the budget too far and i may as well spend that money on my other car.

Evil666,
Yea, it'll probably go bang, but i figure i can get a new engine pretty cheap.
The whole car only cost me $400
As for skills, I have been a mech for nearly 10 years now and spent a lot of time modifying and doing silly things, usually to Nissans or Mazda's. Time, skill and tools are no probs, i just need to learn the quirks of the Mitsubishi...

This may just end up as a massive how to on wasting time, money and a perfectly good engine.lol
With pics of course!

Where do you pick up the oil feed from?
Is there a suitable oil gallery to tap into or is it just a matter of putting a T piece on the oil pressure switch?
The oil drain isnt a prob, got that sorted. (more or less...)

My apologies.
When I got to the point of dioing it cheap that was basically my feeling. Ok, it can be done. What about all considerations re extra stress on components, brakes, suspension, pistons,... What about the person who gets hands on a not quite right one later down the track and thinks it's all right. The costs add up all down the line, let alone a possible replacement? I'd rather sit this one out and read the discussion. In the end, if cost is a factor it's probably going to be the main decider.

Your points are valid.
Yes, there will be extra stress on components, they will break and i'll replace them. Im not planning on running big power or driving it like a dick, so stress 'should' be minimal (I hope)
Brakes will be fine, the mass of the car wont be increased significantly so the intertia conversion to heat will still be at the same rate (brakes will work fine)
Suspension? Handles like a boat already lol
Selling it later? I wont sell it with the turbo, i would rather keep it when i scrap the car.
Given how cheap i got it, and that i have a second TF for the missus, i plan on driving it into the ground or scrounging it for spares to keep the other one running.
I will be the last owner.

You are 100% right that cost is going to be a massive decider.

I had the turbulence issue with my supercharger. I had to relocate to in front of a passenger wheel (same as RPW CAI), that fixed it.

Stock injectors wont do 10 psi (even 380 ones). I am only running 6.5 and already @ 90% duty and that's with high flowed injectors

You will need to remap, i am hitting 152% load at 6.5psi, spark will need to be retarded not to mention AFR's must should be around 12 at max load. My original engine melted 2 pistons when idiots at a tuning shop "forgot" to change the spark map and were doing power runs with factory spark map. Also MAF wont take reading over 2000hz (or 2200) i believe, which you will exceed wit 10psi, so you will need to adjust that.

Just do it, I had the same problem when i did my Twin turbo conversion everyone on here was so negative, telling me you cant do it for that cost blah blah blah. so I did it more or less to prove a point that it could be done and well I did and its still going no problems .

I am probably wrong in my interpretation of your project, but I read it that you are going to use only one bank of the exhaust to drive the turbo. If this is the case, I suspect that you may get really funny things happening either in the exhaust or in the air intake.

Whatever, you would probably have to use thicker head gaskets because the extra air, fuel and heat will cause pre-ignition problems.

I am planning on using both banks of the exhaust, the rear will be j piped off the stock manifold flange, the front will be fabricated from scratch to give me some space.

Do it. Boosted cars are awesome. You will get out of it what you put into it. Mines going strong on 18psi through a gt35 for 4 years now as I put plenty into it. :)

Ok, so still throwing this idea around my head, trying to trick the MAF into reading the extra airflow has been problematic and something I wasnt able to resolve.
So, my current thinking (and im hoping there may be some electronic guru's smarter than me around here) Is that I will try to run a stand alone single injector, with the pulse referenced off the output voltage signal of a MAP sensor.
I'll run the factory ECU and injectors to 100% and use the 7th injector to make up the difference once it starts boosting. This will obviously mean having the MAF before the turbo, which may make it a lot easier to keep the factory airbox?
I have got a 2 Bar GM map sensor lying around, I know that once it gets to atmospheric it outputs 2.45v
Once it gets to 14.3psi, it outputs 4.9v
I think I can use the voltage output from the MAP straight into a LM1949 injector driver IC (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm1949.pdf), then use its output to drive the single injector as a variable output referenced against the current manifold pressure.
This 'should' give more fuel as the boost increases, while not making it stupidly rich when not on boost. Should keep my normal driving fuel economy in check.
If that is a sound idea, it becomes a pretty simple affair of sizing a single injector to make up the difference. simple maths there...

The other consderation is that I 'may' be able to get an old Haltech E6X, then piggyback it into the factory wiring harness and sensors, I'll still need to add in a MAP for that to run, then find a computer old enough to connect to it and tune it (almost DOS based tuning software)
Will the car work without the factory ECU connected? Alarm/immobiliser issues maybe?
I like the fact that if I do it that way, I can in theory piggy back the Haltech and get it running while keeping the factory ECU, eg, plug the haltech in for the weekends when im messing around with it and back on the factory ECU for the drive to work for the week. I can always manually hold the wastegate open so it doesnt make boost when its on the factory ECU...

Hi! Why you don't want to use the FIC AEM ? This will allow you to control the injection time of the injectors and the ignition timing. It is quite simple to install. It will be much better than the 7th injector. This will allow you to delay the ignition timing, MAF, MAP, etc.

http://aemelectronics.com/products/programmable-engine-management-systems/fuel-ignition-controller
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/aem-fic

There are many complicated formulas for determining the size of injectors. However, there is a simple formula for certain conditions. If your fuel system pressure is 3 bar, and open the injector 90%. It will look like this.
(injector size) / 5,25 х (number of cylinders) = maximum power
For example. If you take the injectors 3.8 engine (6g75). It is 305cc.
305 / 5,25 = 58,09 х 6 = 348,54 hp
Thus, if you install the injectors (6g75) the maximum you can get a 348 HP. You can also calculate any other size.

Hi! Why you don't want to use the FIC AEM ?

Simple answer?
Its $400.
Im trying to keep this as cheap as I can.

It's worth it. You will have virtually unlimited possibilities for customization. In addition, you can buy used. But it's still better than the 7th injector.

It seems to me that you might be overcomplicating what you need to do with regards to fuel delivery. While Andrei's MAF limit I believe is in the ballpark, the fact that you are doing this with the 6G72 not the 6G74 means that you should have more MAF airflow headroom. With my cammed 6G74 I've never logged more than 1200Hz (more like low-mid 1100s) so I doubt that you would be exceeding 1000Hz under the best circumstances. That being the case 10psi of boost should be comfortably short of 2000Hz and fuelling should be completely controllable by a reflashable ECU.

A reflashable (H or J series) ECU will also make lots of other engine control changes easier, at the cost of acquiring a suitable cable which is also usable for logging - something you will really need unless you use the alternate ECU strategy. Also useful to find out more about the engine parameters in stock form too!

If you use a flashable ECU, you might also be better off with a 3.5 MAF (either 337 [KH] or 338 [H/J/L/W]) as I suspect that it doesn't have quite as restrictive an airbox cover plate as the 3l E/F MAFs - the more restrictive cover plate being designed to boost air velocity through the MAF.

A wideband oxygen sensor would also seem a good idea unless you're going to pay someone to tune it for you...

hmmm, interesting....
I'll look into this ECU, i know i have seen it here before, so off searching i go!!!

I have a WB02 I can pull off my other car, so no probs there.
I have costed my basic materials (pipework, building ex manifolds ect) at around $300, most bits i already have lying around, including a turbo that is so damn big that in theory it doesnt even need a wastegate, because it'll only make it to 10-12psi once im getting to redline :cool:
Which is handy because it doesnt have a wastegate at all and i dont really want to buy an external gate.
Otherwise i have a slightly smaller turbo that does have an internal gate...

I guess ill have to cost up this flashable ECU...

Edit: Hey, look at your sig!!!
Knew id seen it somewhere lol

So, the MAF from a 3.5 or 3.8 should give me the headroom to make up for the extra airflow and with the tuneable ECU work with the system.
Can i change the base scale on the fuel maps if i stick bigger injectors in there? I was thinking maybe i can get some 440cc injectors and fit them in place?
The trick then will be getting some top feed injectors that will fit in place of the mitsi ones, Maybe some Skyline ones???
Google will go a long way there...

as a follow up question, when im sourcing a H/J ECU, does it need to be a manual one? Or does the auto/manual difference only reside in the program loaded into it?

as a follow up question, when im sourcing a H/J ECU, does it need to be a manual one? Or does the auto/manual difference only reside in the program loaded into it?
You will need a manual ECU as the connectors are different to the auto ECUs.

Ideally you want a late F series ECU (don't have a part no but must have a large chip marked MH7202F on the PCB) or J series ECU (part nos MR507991, MR507993 or MR560273, requires immobiliser & barometric pressure sensor delete). H series also usable but I don't know how to nuke the barometric pressure sensor CEL in these and I don't have an F series manual ROM (which doesn't support the barometric pressure sensor) to flash :(. An F series ECU also doesn't require an immobiliser delete...

You would need to add a wire to the ECU connectors to support the reflash capability as this is missing on the E & early F series cars.

Injector sizing is well defined in the ROMs I have definitions for. If you source non-original injectors, try and get latency information with them - it is much easier to work from supplied information than try and determine it empirically. The Magna ECUs all expect high impedance (aka high Z, around 12-14 ohm) injectors rather than peak and hold types.

MAF from a 380 won't help, as that is a hot wire type not the Karmann Vortex MAF used in Magnas.

Once an ECU option has been chosen and then sourced. If you want larger injectors and don't want to bother around with the 7th injector crap, try and find a set of galent/legnum vr4 injectors. High impedance and are a direct swap. Latency and injector scalings are directly available from stock vr4 roms.

I have a set here that cost me near to nothing, as well as an injector rebuild kit. They have plenty of headroom compared to the 3.5 or 3.8 injectors. And you should be able to source them for around the same price as any magna injectors as the vr4 guys are throwing them out for larger upgrades all the time.


Dooo iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!

http://i.imgur.com/HsGE95L.jpg


Subbed to this thread as I'll be boosting mine soon.

P.S. Regarding fuel delivery, I hope you can get away with the stock pump as they're all the same across the models. Keep a cross eye on this as when you're boosting you want the fuel to be getting there or goodbye motor. I've installed my whinebro already and only cost me $100 and an evening installing it. They're a cheap upgrade.

so, I jammed this in the front of the car today :D

http://i.imgur.com/AJQ3xkN.jpg

The a/c is fv<k3d anyway, so no big loss there, turbos are cooler than a/c
It fits nicely behind the bumper and grille, stealth as!
I have to move the battery to the boot, then make up some manifolds.
If i play it smart, i'll still be able to drive it to work and back each day until its all ready to go on.