So, let's go over the problems. Maybe someone can provide some insight here.

Rear rocker cover (apparently) suddenly is leaking oil.

Put new gasket on, tightened properly. Still leaking oil on the rear exhaust. Apply Permatex to gasket.

STILL BLOODY LEAKING! There is too much burnoff for it to be leftover residue.

And just now, while waiting to pick my fiance up, it decided to idle at 1.5k RPM.

To be honest, I am about ready to park this thing in my back yard and renew the rego on my 89 Astra. At least that car runs.

EDIT: Once my fiance arrived, I started the car. It went to normal idle range, but was 'chugging' like it did to me last night. Nowhere near as bad (couldn't even drive it), but definitely noticeable and impeding take-off until it got over 1k RPM. When I got home, it went right back to idling at 1.5k RPM.

I'm done with this thing. Going to just wash the paw prints from my cats off of it, put a cover over it, and let it stay parked until I can afford to take it to a shop, which will probably be some time next year. I've apparently spend six grand for a giant shiny paperweight.

Mate, the frustration can really start getting to you. I had some serious problems with mine late last year and i ended up changing the battery. The idle settled down, the chugging stopped and acceleration came back to what it was supposed to be. I was worried that i may have filled it up with a dodgy load of fuel and was ready to pull the tank out because it was just like i had water in the tank but i haven't had anything like it since. The car kept dropping into limp mode and i was cruising down the Bruce Highway at 30kmh!! Get your battery checked, make sure it's serviceable and capable supplying the required charge. That's the full extent of my electrical knowledge.

As far as the rocker covers go, when i used to build engines for a living i had the same problem with them and sumps and the fix was relatively easy. I had a largish cold chisel that i had ground down to a big flat blunt edge and a range of biggish bolts that i had turned in a lathe to have a completely flat head surface. Then i would put the sump or rocker cover so the gasket surface was facing up, on a hard edge of my bench and i'd tap all around the contact surface and make sure it was completely flat. I used the bolts to hammer the inside of the sump or rocker cover where the bolt holes were to ensure when the bolts were tightened they created the right amount of crush on the gasket. Sometimes i needed to gently tap the outer surface of the gasket contact area after it was all tightened down and then i'd would just check tighten the bolts one more time. It became a routine that i stuck to and i never had another leaker. You can put the cover back onto the head to make sure it's relatively flat and it doesn't rock or have high spots in between the bolts before you put the gasket back in there. Also, make sure the lip on the bottom of the cover isn't turned in at any point as this will catch on the head or gasket and prevent it from pulling down when the bolts are tightened.

I hope this helps in some way.

sean

Either something went horribly wrong when you put that gasket on (3 Nm???), or the leak is coming from somewhere else.

Take a deep breath, and try again later.

Yea, I'm used to re-tooling rocker covers. When you restore cars that are 30+ years old, it's about the only option you've got most of the time.

I did check them as best as I can, no ripples in the edging, or dents to misshape the gasket mating area. Nice and level and smooth.

I will try putting the battery on my charger to get it fully juiced up, then do a load test on it. I fully admit that 99% of my experience with engines is dealing with old mechanical ones, not these newer 'everything is electric and has a dozen sensors' models.

As far as something going horribly wrong with the gasket install...I just can't see it. I've taken everything off a total of four times now, and examined every bit of the rocker covers when they're on and off of the engine. When mounted, they look absolutely perfect, everything is aligned properly, and sitting just right. The front one is giving me zero problems, it's only the rear one. (I'm almost tempted to think there's a crack in it or something, though I couldn't find one when I had them off, and no signs of oil on the exterior of the cover body. What I am really afraid of is that there's a head leak/crack, and that's why the car was sold off at the price I got it for)

As it sits right now though, I can't do anything else with it until I'm working. I just don't have the money to invest in new parts.

Mal says these things never crack heads.

Did you reshape the gasket groove in the cover so it held the new gasket in there properly? I had to go the whole way around and close it up so the gasket stays in there when you hold it upside down.

Did you degrease the engine? You can't really be sure where it's coming from unless you completey remove all the oil after replacing the rocker cover gaskets.

Did you use a torque wrench?

And you shouldn't put Permatex or anything else on the rocker cover gasket. Or if you do, only a very thin smear.
These gaskets are designed to go on 'dry'.

@flyboy, when I did the original install, everything went on dry. Degreased the rocker cover, the contact point on the heads, everything. The groove holds the gasket beautifully, even when turned over and given a light bit of shaking. Also during original install, I did indeed use a torque wrench (father-in-law had one for small measurements). As for the heads cracking, that is something I do seriously doubt, but I can't really rule out until I get to that step in things.

@TreeAdeyMan, I know these are dry gaskets, I've had several cars with cyclone engines, and they all were, even my GTO TT. But, when you follow all of the steps right and still have an issue, you've got to start looking at going outside of the original process. Do whatever it takes to fix the leak, then work it backwards after you've got a definite solution to get it fixed without using anything else.

For right now, there isn't much I *can* do with the car until I have some money coming in to be able to afford anything else. Since I've put Permatex on this gasket set, I know I'll need another 'clean' set to test and work with. First thing I'm going to do is get a second set of gaskets, and then put the covers on a sheet of glass with the gaskets out first, then in. This is a good way to see if there's subtle bowing in the seal area, or if there's something causing the seal to protrude/recess in one spot, which would throw off the sealing when bolted in.

If I can't find any issues on that side of the equation, then I'll do a tear-down when I do the timing belt and inspect the head surfaces for any errors. It's something I normally don't see, but I won't rule it out. My luck seems to always run to the weirdest possible way for something to go wrong, no matter what.

I've been finding subtle signs that this car wasn't serviced by a good mechanic though. Had to replace two 'missing' bolts from minor brackets that weren't there, and the rear timing cover has knocks on it like someone was cramming shit around in a hurry to get it done.

From everything I am seeing, it just looks like this car was due for a bunch of minor things, and those combined with needing a timing service in 10k were just more than the previous owner wanted to spend on it.

I think most of my 'freak-out' came from having gone into this thing several times for what is normally a stupidly minor fix, and then having it doing that chugging and high idle for no reason. If there's one thing I hate, it's trying to get one thing squared away, and then suddenly two or three more pop up and go 'I hope you've got deep pockets mate, cause we're not going away without more money!'. That combined with job hunting (which is why I bought this car, needed something solid and reliable, which the Astra isn't), just put me over the edge to the point of getting ready to pull the motor out and do a full rebuild just to make sure of everything. And yes, I have done that more than once where I've gotten completely cranked off at an engine, and just torn it down to bare block and built it back up to ensure it was at 100%.

If I can't find any issues on that side of the equation, then I'll do a tear-down when I do the timing belt and inspect the head surfaces for any errors.
From everything I am seeing, it just looks like this car was due for a bunch of minor things, and those combined with needing a timing service in 10k were just more than the previous owner wanted to spend on it.

Yes, got to love previous owners! A lot of cars with cam belts hit the used car market just before, or well after, the big service is/was due because the owner couldn't be bothered. If you buy a Magna or 380 in the 90,000 to 120,000 km range, or 200,000 + km, you can bet this job will need doing. Trap for the unwary - even if bought from a dealer, neglected servicing in not covered under warranty.

Sounds like you have done everything right with the rocker cover without getting the right results. So possibly you haven't given the exhaust enough time to burn off the oil residue - did you check for more oil flowing down the back of the engine? Another degrease and good inspection after running the engine may help to locate the leak.

Pulling off the rear head when doing the timing belt to inspect it certainly is a good option. A long term leak will leave tell tale stains on alloy.

Tearing down the whole engine to give everything the once over is another option, but it will cost you - a full gasket set, at the very least. Plus whatever you get the urge to replace while it is apart, bearings, rings etc.

Does anyone know if there are any plugs or grub screws in the back of the heads that lead to the oil channels?

Worth having a look for any in the workshop manual?

I haven't seen any plugs located around where the leak is.

As for burning off the old oil, I have made sure to thoroughly clean the area with degreaser, including wiping down from the exhaust up to the rocker cover. (That crap STINKS when the residue is burnt off)

Did a test drive today, and got positive results that it's still got a leak of some sort.

I *think* there might be a problem with the middle bolt on the rocker cover, it appears that is the culprit for the leak. I couldn't be 100% certain that the leak is from the rocker cover (bad back and can't really climb around the engine bay like I used to), but unless there's some way it could come from the head in that area, it's going to be that little punk.

Unfortunately, the car is now DIW. During the test drive, on my return leg, it threw a CEL. When I pulled into my driveway and put it in park, it once again idled at 1.5k RPMs.

So, I am going to simply wait until I've got a job, and then take it to a shop where they've got all the tools I don't have to get at it. I know it'll rip a giant hole in my pocket, but that's about all I can do right now.

What I think I will do is have the heads pulled and cleaned while the timing belt job is done. That way if it's actually a flaw in the head surfacing, it can be milled down easily enough without a horrendous cost hitting me after I get the belt done.

When it goes in, this is everything I will get done, to be on the safe side:

Timing belt/water pump
Radiator flush
Head pull and clean
Rocker cover gasket replacement and cover inspection
Transmission service
Power steering flush
Brake fluid flush
Aircon regas (takes way too long to start blowing cold air when it's hot outside. My 89 Astra should not have a faster aircon than the 380)

I will also get an inspection done, and examine the car while it's on the lift myself. I've just done new brake pads and rotors, but I want a chance to examine the CV axles and wheel hubs in depth. I know that if the rest of the car wasn't maintained properly, they're going to need attention sooner rather than later.

Honestly, I don't care about how much it's going to take to get the car where I want it...I just wish it had done this AFTER I had secured a job, instead of while I am job hunting.

I will also get an inspection done, and examine the car while it's on the lift myself. I've just done new brake pads and rotors, but I want a chance to examine the CV axles and wheel hubs in depth. I know that if the rest of the car wasn't maintained properly, they're going to need attention sooner rather than later.


Yep. Job first, money next, bills third, car (a distant) fourth.

Been there, not a nice feeling.

CV axles and boots should be fine, as well as the wheel hubs/bearings. They don't need servicing in normal use, and last in excess of 200,000 km. Checking CV boots for splits and wheel bearings for play is about all you can do, and that doesn't cost anything.

Idle problem may be a failed temperature sensor telling the ECU (wrongly) the car is cold and upping the idle. If you have a CEL a quick scan will tell you what is going on.

Well, considering the car's at 220k...it's right about time to make sure they're still holding strong.

As for the CEL, I would love to pull the codes so I know what's what...don't have access to a scanner though. Only other mechanic in the family is my BIL, and he does diesel engine repairs on forklifts and the like, so no need for him to have one.

I was thinking it was the temp sensor, but even cold idle is nowhere near 1.5k. Before all this mess, I was seeing a cold idle of around 800RPM, with a running idle of around 500-600RPM, going by the gauge at least.

Those previous idle revs are about right for a 380.

That's what all the information I could find said.

I imagine it'd be a lot easier if I could buy a FSM for the car so I could get precise specs. Bugger this being broke crap.

That's what all the information I could find said.

I imagine it'd be a lot easier if I could buy a FSM for the car so I could get precise specs. Bugger this being broke crap.

The factory service manual is available on this forum for the very reasonable price of $0.

Try:
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97431&highlight=service+manual+380

If that doesn't help, can someone suggest a more up to date source?

If MadMax's link doesn't work, let me know and i'll open a dropbox account and post it there for you. I burned the ISO to a disc and then just copied everything off onto a directory on my hard drive and created a shortcut to the front page. The extracted files are about 260mb so a tad too large to email.

"File removed for violation of Terms of Service"

You don't have to upload it blockhead, I can buy a copy when I start working. Give me something to read while it's in the shop. It's not a priority right now.

First is get a job, and then get the car into a shop to get it back to 100%. Then I start buying all of the tools I am used to having, like an engine hoist and stand, an OBDII reader, and a TCU interface system...though I might wait for the OBDII and get an actual laptop to OBDII interface, that way I can have a little bit of 'fun' with the fuel maps.

Do the 380's run rich like all of the Cyclone engines in the States did? I know my GTO was running stupidly rich at stock....which was juuuust perfect for dialing up the boost on the turbos to 20psi. With zero knock and only a slight timing change.

(Question deleted, was looking at the wrong plugs...have to find the right ones)

lol at "buy a copy".

I don't think anyone has tried that!

Anyhow, when you need it and the .iso isn't on line, yell out and I will mail you the CD.

Thinking about it, I have a very VERY nasty suspicion about what's wrong with the motor (aside from the oil leak).

The pretensioner has been rattling, and even though the only driving I have done has been to test the leak, I think it might have slipped timing.

It would make sense with the idle issues, and the CEL. If it's two to ten teeth off on the belt, then the airflow cycle would be murdered at extremely low RPM (sub 1k) but would be balanced out by keeping the RPM's higher and adjusting the ignition timing on the fly.

With how noisy the tensioner got on the last start-up, that wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Mate, you're wasting a lot of nervous energy on a car that is inherently reliable and well built.

You can't change fuel trims etc on a 380, the ECU is locked down...so forget that idea.

I'll be over in Adelaide a few weeks for the Clipsal races......you could come over...for a little while....and

I have a MUT3 unit that I can happily put on and tell you what the codes are saying ?

Thanks for the offer, though I'm honestly very nervous about driving the car anywhere.

As for the ECU being locked down....that's craptastic.

It's just going to have to wait until I have a job.

As for burning a lot of energy basically flipping my shit over the car? Yea, I am. I bought it in December to be able to job hunt and go to interviews. Now it's a giant paperweight until I get a job, and I have to scrounge up the cash to register my 89 Astra. So it's a combination of being pissed off that it's decided to pull this, nervousness about how much the stupid thing's going to end up costing me, and frustration that I'm spending money I don't have to get the other car on the road.

YES!!!!!

The leak appears to be fixed, and with it the rattle is starting to lessen. Maybe there was some oil starvation going on.

The leak appears to be stopped with an external application of more Permatex along the rocker cover seal between the rear intake plenum brackets. This allows me to know where, and gives me a better opportunity to find the why.

Now I just have to get the CEL codes and figure out what that's from. Might be from the O2 sensor getting dirty thanks to all the oil and oil smoke.

The oxy sensor doesn't throw codes in these cars mate.

Have a look into earthing the code pin and it will flash the code at you.

Search on here and find out how to get your codes.

Mike

Mike, I think you might be thinking of a 3rd gen Magna instead of a 380.
Coz my 380 threw heaps of O2 sensor codes after I fitted the RPW extractors.
And I know about the earthing the pin trick to get the codes from a Magna, but never heard about doing this for a 380.
Instead, the OP would be better off getting a cheap OBD2 reader from Fleabay, like this one:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AU-Car-Engine-Fault-Diagnostic-Scanner-Auto-Code-Reader-OBD2-Scan-Tool-MS300-/111215822732?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19e4fac78c
A whopping $21 delivered, I still have one just like it, works a treat for reading simple/common codes.

Mike, I think you might be thinking of a 3rd gen Magna instead of a 380.
Coz my 380 threw heaps of O2 sensor codes after I fitted the RPW extractors.
And I know about the earthing the pin trick to get the codes from a Magna, but never heard about doing this for a 380.
Instead, the OP would be better off getting a cheap OBD2 reader from Fleabay, like this one:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AU-Car-Engine-Fault-Diagnostic-Scanner-Auto-Code-Reader-OBD2-Scan-Tool-MS300-/111215822732?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19e4fac78c
A whopping $21 delivered, I still have one just like it, works a treat for reading simple/common codes.

Sorry, I stand corrected

Yep, listen to TreeAdeyMan. I bought one of these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Car-Vehicle-Engine-Fault-Diagnostic-Scanner-Auto-Code-Reader-OBD2-EOBD-CAN-Tool-/131224346229?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e8d949e75

Does exactly the same thing, was a few dollars more expensive, has a few extra buttons to impress the neighbors, is red so it diagnoses and displays extra fast and best of all............it works!!

With everything I buy on Ebay, I should have thought of going there to get a scan tool.

Just be careful of the generic codes that the cheap readers spit out.

Any serious code will lead you in the wrong direction.

For example a crank angle sensor failure code will google up as an auto transmission ECU failure..:)

I use this page to check the codes picked up by the cheap scan tool:
http://www.myscantool.com/dtc/powertrain.html
Never had a dud yet!

I don't know if it still works, but it used to be that you could put trouble codes into the search of Auto Zone's website (car parts dealer in the US) and it would give you the proper results.

They also offered free code scanning at the store. I miss things like that.

EDIT: Nope, doesn't work any more.

Got it bookmarked.

As for the oil leak....it's not going away. Now it's the driver's side area leaking onto the exhaust.

I swear this car just hates me. But that's fine. I'll get 'er fixed up eventually.

Well, my scanner has come in today. Got four codes.

P0507-Idle Air Control System RPM Higher Than Expected

P0300- Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected

P2187-System Too Lean at Idle: Bank 1

P2189-System Too Lean at Idle: Bank 2

I've cleared them to see which ones come back. I can honestly say I've never had this group pop up together, lean codes and misfires. Normally with misfires I get the codes for the engine being too rich.

Those 4 codes may all be interlinked, ie caused by one problem. Possible air leak in the intake somewhere, perhaps? Idle Air Control System is part of the throttle body, IIRC.

(Other people are welcome to make more intelligent deductions. )

I've double checked everything, and re-tightened the clamps on the air duct to be certain of that end of things. The hose that's on the line right before the throttle body was a bit loose, so it's been re-seated as well. More than likely that was the culprit.

pvc vavle or inlet manifold leak

Since you pulled it to bits a few times now I suggest that you may have stuffed the gasket for the plenum to manifold.
Easy to get a crease in it and a leak.
have you stripped any of the plenum bolts? easy to do.

Since you pulled it to bits a few times now I suggest that you may have stuffed the gasket for the plenum to manifold.
Easy to get a crease in it and a leak.
have you stripped any of the plenum bolts? easy to do.

Yep, I've done both of these things!
You can get a new intake plenum gasket for not many $ from a stealership, and most mechanics can fix a stripped plenum bolt thread with an insert called a Helicoil IIRC.
But that will probably cost you around $200 in labour, most of which is for the time taken to remove and replace the plenum.

Yep, I've done both of these things!

Easy to do, they are big bolts so they must go on tight, right?
Wrong, they screw into alloy. Manual says 15 Nm IIRC. (CBF'd looking it up. lol)

Probably stuffed the gasket. I'll find out next week when it goes into the shop. Got the money together to get it squared away. I'm pretty sure I haven't jacked the threads on the plenum bolts, I've learned my lesson a long time ago about those bastards on my 6G72TT motor.

Though if I did stuff the threads, then I'll just take it on the chin since I was the one dumb enough to tear the motor down without a torque wrench handy (the one I used the first time is up at the in-law's place in Saddleworth).