Long story short. I must have ended up causing the timing belt to skip by rotating the engine the wrong way. Both camshafts are in line with each other, but they aren't correctly in line with the crankshaft. The engine started out in line when I checked it, then it must have skipped 2 or 3 teeth as it cranked but was still running - albeit poorly - and I checked it again tonight and must have caused it to skip another tooth. Valves are now interfering with pistons so the engine won't turn over all the way by hand. I havn't used the starter motor or put undue strain on the engine so fingers crossed there's no damage. But I need to get the crankshaft rotated back in line

What is the easiest method to loosen the timing belt enough for me to be able to rotate the crankshaft back into alignment? I've done engine servicing on single cylinder engines no problem. But i'm used to only chains with 1 tensioner, not several belts and pulleys in the way. Lesson learnt - belts don't like going the wrong way, chains don't mind so much. What parts need to come off? Is there a tensioner I can loosen which would allow enough slack for me to turn the crankshaft one way and the camshafts the other to skip it back the opposite way to get it back in line? Everything else should be in line as I havn't physically touched the cam sensor, or anything really. All I did was remove the covers and rotate the engine.

You will need to take the belt off for starters

IF you have no damage done, you may be lucky and be able to move the crank a little, move the cams and repeat, safest way is to remove the belt, remove rocker covers, undo (dont have to remove completely) the rocker gear and re allign

Not sure what you did here, you cannot skip teeth by turning the motor the wrong way if the belt is installed correctly

I delete this post because madmagna gave the best advise :)

Long story short. I must have ended up causing the timing belt to skip by rotating the engine the wrong way.

You shouldn't have been able to skip teeth by doing this.


All I did was remove the covers and rotate the engine.

Again, you cannot skip teeth without loosening the tensioner or taking one of the pulleys off. No matter what way you're turning it.

I'm wondering what the real story was because the above is not physically possible. But as Mal stated, that's your best hope if you don't have bent valves now.

You shouldn't have been able to skip teeth by doing this.



Again, you cannot skip teeth without loosening the tensioner or taking one of the pulleys off. No matter what way you're turning it.

I'm wondering what the real story was because the above is not physically possible. But as Mal stated, that's your best hope if you don't have bent valves now.

The belt cant move unless something is loose or broken - and that should have shown up before.

However.... I cant remember, does it take two rotations to get all 3 marks to line up correctly or do they all line up on every rotation?

The belt cant move unless something is loose or broken - and that should have shown up before.

However.... I cant remember, does it take two rotations to get all 3 marks to line up correctly or do they all line up on every rotation?

Every two rotations they will line up. 2:1 ratio.

does it take two rotations to get all 3 marks to line up correctly or do they all line up on every rotation?

Two rotations of the crank = 1 rotation of the cams, so you need to find the right spot. Always rotate using the crank bolt, and go clockwise.

OP: Did you run the engine at all with the pulley off the engine?

Well guys I promise you I havn't physically touched the belt or done anything that would cause it to skip, other than turning the engine both clockwise and counter-clockwise to have lined it up with my initial adjustment. I turned it by the camshafts not the crank. Didn't seem like it would be a problem at the time. But, end result is the engine won't turn. I have all the spark plugs out so it should spin easily, but it gets to a point and stops. I don't have the engine on the right stroke, but if its a 2:1 ratio its clearly skipped teeth because the camshafts aren't where they should be (opposite side of the marks)

When I bought the car, the timing belt had been changed. I dug up the dealer invoice from the PO and it says the timing belt was done at back in april 2013 (So I guess fat chance of them looking at it again for free). It mentions timing belt kit, including belt, tensioner and idler bearings and pulleys. Replaced water pump and seals

I've never done a timing belt before so i'd need a bit more information on what order to remove things. And do I really need to remove everything? Can't I just back off the belt tensioner, then have someone hold the camshafts while I rotate the crankshaft to line it back up again?

So here's the problem. Never once did you mention you touched the camshafts, which has turned out to be your undoing.


Well guys I promise you I havn't physically touched the belt or done anything that would cause it to skip, other than turning the engine both clockwise and counter-clockwise to have lined it up with my initial adjustment. I turned it by the camshafts not the crank. Didn't seem like it would be a problem at the time. But, end result is the engine won't turn.

What has happened is you've put enough stress on the camshaft bolt by undoing counter-clockwise to loosen the bolt enough for the cam to slip, thus putting the timing out. There would have been enough pressure on the lobes from all the springs to move the belt once the cam bolt has even slighly been loosened. Never turn the engine from a cam bolt, always via the crankshaft as there is enough tension on the bolt to never accidentally loosen it.

I'm not so sure the camshaft itself has rotated since both are them are still at the same position? Surely they'd be uneven? And the bolt's on the camshafts are still very tight

If the camshaft itself had rotated, independent of the cam wheels. Then surely the timing belt and markers would still be aligned though right? They're definitely not aligned with where they should be on the crankshaft

What has happened is you've put enough stress on the camshaft bolt by undoing counter-clockwise to loosen the bolt enough for the cam to slip, thus putting the timing out.

Is this even possible? Aren't the cams keyed to the pulleys?

OP: If the belt has jumped at all, it would be on the crank gear as it is the smallest.
Lock down or remove the hydraulic tensioner, and see if you have enough belt slack to turn the crank gear back to the right spot while keeping the belt stationary. If not, you will need to remove the belt and set it up from basics.

Two IMPORTANT questions:

Did you run the engine at all with the ancillary belt pulley loose or off the engine?
With the cams aligned on the marks, which mark are you looking at on the lower cam belt pulley?

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac19/rons105/crank%20marks_zpskr5wkfcu.jpg (http://s881.photobucket.com/user/rons105/media/crank%20marks_zpskr5wkfcu.jpg.html)

This picture shows that the cam pulleys are definitely keyed to the cams.
http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac19/rons105/crank%20marks2_zps7dunusiw.jpg (http://s881.photobucket.com/user/rons105/media/crank%20marks2_zps7dunusiw.jpg.html)

I didn't touch any of the pulleys or anything. I literally just rotated the engine around twice, checking the marks each time and found they were in spec. Then I put the covers back on and drove the car for a few days, was down on power, misfired at idled, generally ran kinda crap. I then checked a bunch of other things like temperature sensors, TPS etc and cleaned everything last night. I went and checked the belt marks again and found it out by about 2 or 3 teeth. Now its out even further. Both times I turned it by the camshafts, and yes I would have assumed they were splined or keyed so unless assumed that unless I felt the bolt loosen it wouldn't be a problem, and even if it did I could just zip it back up with a rattle gun and it shouldn't affect the timing

Was looking at this mark

http://s8.postimg.org/6p49r41d0/2015_02_05_21_15_59_90.jpg

(not my picture) and yes it was originally in spec, then it was out of spec, now its so far out I can't rotate the engine. Prior to this the engine has run fine - aside from crap fuel economy but lets not go there - so I must have done something I just can't work out how

edit: And this pic
http://s8.postimg.org/6dmteckx0/2015_02_05_21_15_45_6.jpg

Thats the reason I rotated the engine counter clockwise, as it looks to me like thats an arrow pointing to the left and is the engines spin direction

Ignore that arrow.
It is NOT a standard factory feature.
Engine rotates clockwise, both crank and cams.

If you line up the cam marks, where is the pointer on the pulley relative to the "T" mark on the case?

If it is way off, the crank pulley needs to come off, as well as the plastic covers to set things up properly.
If you haven't done this job before, you may need the help of someone else more experienced.

I can't rotate it around correctly at the moment. It's on the wrong stroke. The best I can do is rotate it so that the crankshaft is at the 10 degree point. From there the camshaft markers should be in approx the 5 o'clock position (opposite right? 2:1 ratio being on the wrong stroke), obviously off by a little bit. But its actually around the 7 or 8 o'clock position

I've done work on small engines including setting all this stuff up so I should be ok. Mainly I need the car going ASAP so I can't wait for someone else to have the free time. I'll try what you said with the hydraulic tensioner. What do you mean by 'lock it down' though?
Basically, how do I get the hydraulic tensioner slack enough to hopefully skip the belt over (And later tighten it back up). That would be my first thing to try, if that fails I guess i'm stripping it down

edit: If I do have to strip it down, any special tools I need to remove i.e. the crank pulley?

edit2: And if I rotate the camshafts around so they are directly opposite the markers, then the crankshaft marker is at about the 9 o'clock position

What do you mean by 'lock it down' though?

if that fails I guess i'm stripping it down

edit: If I do have to strip it down, any special tools I need to remove i.e. the crank pulley?



You will need to strip it down just to get to the hydraulic tensioner.
"Locking it down" means - get the plunger to retract, and use a lock pin through the holes to keep it retracted. You will need the special tool and torque wrench to get the belt tension right afterwards - something that probably caused the problem in the first place.

Honestly, if you are asking questions like those, you are better off letting someone else deal with the problem.
Think "This will take time to fix - alternative transport needed."

Yep, called a shop that i've done work for in the past. They said they can do it no problem so i'm getting the car towed there. They were going to fix a small leak in the A/C system anyway so I can get both things done at the same time
I'm all for giving things a go, worst cast scenario a new head or a 6g75 upgrade. But this doesn't look like a fun job in any way. Good thing about small engines is you can remove them from the frame with nothing but hand tools and some muscle, then have all the space in the world to work on it. But this, this is BS

But this, this is BS

Yep. I learnt about engines working on motorcycles and the odd VW air cooled flat four recon job when I first got my licence half a century ago.

Felt like a 12 year old n00b first time I delved into the workings of a modern V6.
I did work out quite quickly that reading and understanding relevant parts of the manual is more important than ever, though. (And they are much, much thicker these days)

Good luck with the fix.

The problem I have is the manual is utterly shit. It's borderline useless
It's fine if you've already worked on plenty of engines and know what to do and need nothing more than a simple order of which parts come off / go on, or are looking up specs. But it doesn't tell you HOW to do anything. Its by far the worst manual i've ever seen. I've already said this before, but its seriously bad for anyone not familiar with engines. And I do understand some things shouldn't be done without specialist tools or an understanding of how it works. But I had no problems stripping down a bike's engine for the very first time just by following its service manual because every step is explained. No way thats happening with the magna manual

Not enough room in the manual to explain every step in detail.

You need to go through a process of "OK, the manual says what to do, now I need to work out HOW to do it." Takes time, patience and some determination to translate what to do into actually doing it.

But then, it is a WORKSHOP manual, which makes the assumption the reader is an experienced mechanic who can fill in the practical blanks.
For those who can't you could ask in a forum of some sort? Can't think of any . . . mmm, try this one!

aussiemagna.com/forums

lol

Thats the reason I rotated the engine counter clockwise, as it looks to me like thats an arrow pointing to the left and is the engines spin direction

Thats not an arrow, it is an R I marked it with so I knew which sprocket went where after doing the camshaft seals.

The easiest way to do this job is to set every thing to the marks before taking it apart. Seing as you can only get to 10°BTDC then just leave it there and set the cams so they are slightly to the left of the marks on the casing. Like others have said you will need to get the harmonic balancer off to remove the bottom cover. This will allow access to release the tensioner pulley so the belt can be skipped back to the correct position.

Thats not an arrow, it is an R I marked it with so I knew which sprocket went where after doing the camshaft seals.

This will allow access to release the tensioner pulley so the belt can be skipped back to the correct position.


So you are the previous owner of the car, I'm guessing?

I had to have another look at the picture to confirm that! That makes a lot more sense! "R" for "rear"! lol

Mystery of the "arrow" solved!

I'm guessing the tensioner will need to be set up correctly after this though?

So you are the previous owner of the car, I'm guessing?

I had to have another look at the picture to confirm that! That makes a lot more sense! "R" for "rear"! lol

Mystery of the "arrow" solved!

I'm guessing the tensioner will need to be set up correctly after this though?

No I didn't own the car, I own the pictures. They are from my thread about the marks not lining up completley. R is right, the other has L for left. I should have just done them one at a time so as to avoid the need to mark them and confuse people.

The tension on the belt will need to be set again once the it is in the correct position.

Whoops! The possibility he had "borrowed" the pictures didn't occur to me.
All is clear now! Thanks for the info!