As the title suggests, I'm looking to take a TJ (series 1) with a manual transmission and fit/install traction control. Preferably the traction and trace control including the ESC and throttle control.

My immediate theory is to pull what I need from a TL manual. But, I'm only guessing.

I know the car has ABS and EBD but I'm looking for the full kit.

Reason for all of this is I'm buying the car for my son, who will have his P's in September, and I want as many safety features as I can in the car beforehand.

Most of the current crop of Mitsus come with these features - ABS, traction control, EBD, cruise - but they rely on computer power, sensors and fly by wire throttle to make it work.
I don't fancy your chances retrofitting this to a manual TJ from 2001!

My TJ auto exec sure doesn't have EBD or Traction Control! Or cruise. Or lots of airbags.

Why not buy him a TL manual, 380 or Lancer with all those bits already on it? A Lancer with 7 airbags should keep him safe! ABS, TC should curb his hooning impulses as well.

(Before going any further, discuss it with junior. He may have his heart set on something else.
I've discovered with my offspring that buying a car for them doesn't work - they may not say so, but they will treat a car they don't like really badly. Whoops, didn't see that post! That sort of thing.)

Most of the current crop of Mitsus come with these features - ABS, traction control, EBD, cruise - but they rely on computer power, sensors and fly by wire throttle to make it work.
I don't fancy your chances retrofitting this to a manual TJ from 2001!

My TJ auto exec sure doesn't have EBD or Traction Control! Or cruise. Or lots of airbags.

Why not buy him a TL manual, 380 or Lancer with all those bits already on it? A Lancer with 7 airbags should keep him safe! ABS, TC should curb his hooning impulses as well.

(Before going any further, discuss it with junior. He may have his heart set on something else.
I've discovered with my offspring that buying a car for them doesn't work - they may not say so, but they will treat a car they don't like really badly. Whoops, didn't see that post! That sort of thing.)

Thanks for the replay Max, but I dont see how that helps answer my question.

Thanks for the replay Max, but I dont see how that helps answer my question.

OK/ Mal will chip in soon, I'm sure.

I would say it is doable, but the number of parts and effort required to implement this would not make it financially worthwhile. I think MadMax's point is that it would be cheaper/easier to just buy a car with these features.

There are lots of bits to the TCL, such as the vacuum lines on the throttle body, solenoids, ECU, dashboard buttons/lights, its just not worth to retrofit on a TJ unless there is something very special about that car. But if you have a TL manual wreck available and lots of time, let us know how it goes.

He is after trace control including the ESC as well though. And EBD. (post #1)
Both require electronically controlled braking on specific wheels.

No Magna ever made has those, though. (AFAIK)

Having converted my auto with TCL to manual, i'd say it's more then possible. But, with the manual it has a major heart attack as it can't register the clutch going in, so the car just doesn't do anything for a few seconds. Plus it seems to come on a lot more often then what's necessary and you end up pulling onto a road and not going anywhere for 3 seconds. Not good

He is after trace control including the ESC as well though. And EBD. (post #1)
Both require electronically controlled braking on specific wheels.

No Magna ever made has those, though. (AFAIK)

Traction and trace control was in the TL and TW. Not just EBD, which from my understand is different. The ESC, applies brake at each wheel individually reading input from the steering angle sensor, wheel speed sensors and throttle position. EBD from what I've read adjust braking force front to rear based on an average of inputs from all four wheel speed sensors. Traction control drops the throttle when there's a difference in wheel speeds.

All of this was in the GTVi I had and from my limited experience was introduced in the Ralliarts.

I'm pretty sure that it could be done. The car has ABS, which gives me the wheel speed sensors and hopefully the right ABS modulator. I'll need the steering angle sensor, Traction Control TB and associated plumbing. The rest is the right ECU+BEM+Keys+dash bezel/harness. Being manual is what gets me, but I'm sure the TL/TW's had TCL in their manual transmission variants? Right?

I doubt this would cost an arm AND a leg to source all the parts and, if it can be done properly and safely, it'll be a good project for my son and I to do together.


...and lots of time, let us know how it goes - we have until September. The car is a designated project car and can be off the road for as long as it needs to be.


...unless there is something very special about that car - not the car, but whats in the car.


Having converted my auto with TCL to manual, i'd say it's more then possible. But, with the manual it has a major heart attack as it can't register the clutch going in, so the car just doesn't do anything for a few seconds. Plus it seems to come on a lot more often then what's necessary and you end up pulling onto a road and not going anywhere for 3 seconds. Not good - which parts did you use? I remember Tom's Ralliart, with TCL, going from auto to manual didnt have dramatic issues. The TCL was there but not very intrusive, like you describe. Certainly didnt stop him from getting off the line quickly. I dont think the TJ's current ABS modulator would be the right one to use. My theory anyway.

Didn't realise the last of the upper market Magnas like the GTVi had these features!

The car was running a full loom from a TW VRX. When changed over to manual, it was just your regular manual swap into an auto loom. Mal did it at Mitsfix, so I'm unsure of the exact process.

Honestly, traction control isn't that helpfull a tool anyway. Most of the time I turned it off in both Auto and Manual due to it just being more annoying then anything as all it does is drop the throttle

As the title suggests, I'm looking to take a TJ (series 1) with a manual transmission and fit/install traction control. Preferably the traction and trace control including the ESC and throttle control.

My immediate theory is to pull what I need from a TL manual. But, I'm only guessing.

I know the car has ABS and EBD but I'm looking for the full kit.

Reason for all of this is I'm buying the car for my son, who will have his P's in September, and I want as many safety features as I can in the car beforehand.

Okay,i can understand you wanting all these safety features there to help out ,but ,thats just it ...it is there to help out

The best computer is your brain and the two feet controlling the pedals.

Teach and learn the basics of driving and car control ,and these shouldnt be needed.

I have a TH Sports which ,being an auto ,has TCl .It is now converted to manual and it is the biggest pia ever.

The first thing i do after i start the car up is to turn OFF the TCl ..its just too invasive and always cuts in at the wrong time.

And to answer your question,it will be easier to get and auto with these features and THEN CONVERT IT TO MANUAL.

Its just way to big a job to do it the other way around

My verada which I converted to manual has TCL, It doesn't do anything when taking off hard only going around corners fast. I usually drive with TCL off

My verada which I converted to manual has TCL,

It doesn't do anything when taking off hard



lmao.....lol..you mustn't be taking off hard enough then...



only going around corners fast. I usually drive with TCL off


weird,i find that even the slightest hint of quickish cornering will induce the TCL,at which point i punch the dash switch off in frustration




mmmmmm

I only drive one car with TCL, and it has caught me out several times. Whereas my TJ will chirp the tyres and take off well, the Lancer only bogs down, and has left me looking at traffic approaching fast.
It's good around corners though, the front will start to sidestep, and power is reduced. I guess I will just have to adjust, or switch the TCL off.

EBD from what I've read adjust braking force front to rear based on an average of inputs from all four wheel speed sensors.

EBD - Electronic brake force distribution. When the ABS dectects a wheel skidding it releases braking pressure on that wheel to stop it skidding. This causes the overall braking force to reduce unless the driver steps harder on the pedal. Most drivers don't press hard enough so EBD adds extra braking pressure to the wheels that have traction to compensate so that the overall braking force remains the same.

I'm also told that cars with ABS don't have a proportoning valve as the rear brakes do the same amount of braking as the front and ABS & EBD take care of any skidding.

I have a TW manual VRX and it doesn't come with TCL...

I have a TW manual VRX and it doesn't come with TCL...


thats because ONLY the autos have TCL

thats because ONLY the autos have TCL
Except for the AWD's, which AFAIK dont have TCL (not needed).
Why is ESC mentioned in this thread? Does it mean Electronic Stability Control? Is there any way to retrofit ESC to our cars?

The car was running a full loom from a TW VRX. When changed over to manual, it was just your regular manual swap into an auto loom. Mal did it at Mitsfix, so I'm unsure of the exact process.

Honestly, traction control isn't that helpfull a tool anyway. Most of the time I turned it off in both Auto and Manual due to it just being more annoying then anything as all it does is drop the throttle

I didnt mind it, in the GTVi. I actually like the trace control... might have been a placebo. The traction control does give up, if you keep your boot into it . The TCL doesn't give up from experience and it works well right up until you try to fight it.

Which aspect of the traction control was worse in your case Wiggles? The cutting of throttle or the ESC? Did you ever get to the bottom of it?

I'm expecting this to be a substantial project, with the parts involved. If it works out to be more expensive than an LSD then I'll reconsider and maybe just screw a piece of wood to the underside of the accelerator pedal.

thats because ONLY the autos have TCL

Even in the TL/TW manuals? I know they put an LSD in the Ralliart, but I couldn't see Mitsubishi putting helical LSD's in every TL/TW manual.

Except for the AWD's, which AFAIK dont have TCL (not needed).
Why is ESC mentioned in this thread? Does it mean Electronic Stability Control? Is there any way to retrofit ESC to our cars?

The traction and trace control is mentioned in the TL workshop manual.

See wiki here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_AWC)

From the workshop manual;

The TCL system (slip control and trace control) is available as an option. This system facilitates starting, accelerating, and cornering on slippery roads such as snowy roads. In addition, this system improves driveability while cornering on normal roads and contributes to easier driving.

A bit more reading reveals that it appears the TCL wasnt an option in the manual magna's as Mad-Mag says. Dammit.
I have a TW manual VRX and it doesn't come with TCL... How does that car of yours go for traction?

The traction and trace control is mentioned in the TL workshop manual.

See wiki here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_AWC)

<snip>
Sorry, still not following this; my KH has TCL with trace control, which works well, but thats not what I understand modern ESC to be.
The wiki entry above is talking to AWC on the Lancer EVO. That may be Mits implementation of ESC, but how would that be retrofitted to a Magna or Rada?

Sorry, still not following this; my KH has TCL with trace control, which works well, but thats not what I understand modern ESC to be.
The wiki entry above is talking to AWC on the Lancer EVO. That may be Mits implementation of ESC, but how would that be retrofitted to a Magna or Rada?

AWC used to be called traction and trace control (TCL).

Its detailed in the workshop manual.

Its listed as option code AP5, or AP6, J40.

EBD from what I can tell is not the same as ESC. ESC/TCL/AWC uses the wheel speed sensors as well as the steering angle sensor (among others) to keep you on line. EBD uses wheel speed sensors alone - hence why its on the AWD - and only regulates braking bias front to rear.

Correction; the EBD uses a G-sensor as well. But, the manual states the ABS modulator replaces the front/rear proportioning valve.

AWC used to be called traction and trace control (TCL).

Its detailed in the workshop manual.

Its listed as option code AP5, or AP6, J40.

EBD from what I can tell is not the same as ESC. TCL/AWC uses the wheel speed sensors as well as the steering angle sensor (among others) to keep you on line. EBD uses wheel speed sensors alone - hence why its on the AWD - and only regulates braking bias front to rear.
I agree with what you said there about EBD. EBD, TCL and ESC (which may be AWC in Mits terminology) are all different systems with different benefits.
AFAIK there is no ESC available on Magnas or Radas. TCL with trace control is not ESC.

If theres a way to retrofit true ESC to our cars then someone please tell me. ESC has got to be the greatest advent in vehicle safety since the seat belt.

I agree with what you said there about EBD. EBD, TCL and ESC (which may be AWC in Mits terminology) are all different systems with different benefits.
AFAIK there is no ESC available on Magnas or Radas. TCL with trace control is not ESC.

If theres a way to retrofit true ESC to our cars then someone please tell me. ESC has got to be the greatest advent in vehicle safety since the seat belt.

I'm pretty sure I've finished flogging this dead horse, and I'm going to have the mods drag it out the back to be shot now.

But, retro fitting ESC would take lots of really smart people to figure out.

I just looked at wikipedia and it actually mentions The history of Mits systems there as follows:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control

In 1990, Mitsubishi released the Diamante (Sigma) in Japan. It featured a new electronically controlled active trace & traction control system (the first integration of these two systems in the world) that Mitsubishi developed (see Mitsubishi AWC). Simply named TCL in 1990, the system has now evolved into Mitsubishi's modern Active Skid and Traction Control (ASTC) system. Developed to help the driver maintain the intended line through a corner; an onboard computer monitored several vehicle operating parameters through various sensors. When too much throttle has been used when taking a curve, engine output and braking are automatically regulated to ensure the proper line through a curve and to provide the proper amount of traction under various road surface conditions. While conventional traction control systems at the time featured only a slip control function, Mitsubishi's newly developed TCL system had a preventive (active) safety function which improved the course tracing performance by automatically adjusting the traction force (called "trace control") thereby restraining the development of excessive lateral acceleration while turning. Although not a ‘proper’ modern stability control system, trace control monitors steering angle, throttle position and individual wheel speeds although there is no yaw input. The TCL system's standard wheel slip control function enables better traction on slippery surfaces or during cornering. In addition to the TCL system's individual effect, it also works together with Diamante's electronic controlled suspension and four-wheel steering that Mitsubishi had equipped to improve total handling and performance.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13]

The Diamante had 4WS!? Wow...

Can be done as I have done it a few times

You need a TJ VRX / Sports auto loom set, TCL comp, ECU set etc etc

What you need to do is pretty much set it up as an auto and then do what you would normally do wiring wise to make it work as a manual if this makes sense

To be perfectly honest, would be much easier to get an AUTO with TCL etc already installed and convert that to Manual, much cheaper and a hell of a lot less work

Also with the Manual, while it will work it is much more touchy than with an auto as the manual will get very keen to spin up a wheel and the TCL will spend a lot of time active. I used to simply turn it off a lot of time when I did Sean's car which was my original TE converted to what it ended up as, bits of everything

Can be done as I have done it a few times You need a TJ VRX / Sports auto loom set, TCL comp, ECU set etc etc What you need to do is pretty much set it up as an auto and then do what you would normally do wiring wise to make it work as a manual if this makes sense To be perfectly honest, would be much easier to get an AUTO with TCL etc already installed and convert that to Manual, much cheaper and a hell of a lot less work Also with the Manual, while it will work it is much more touchy than with an auto as the manual will get very keen to spin up a wheel and the TCL will spend a lot of time active. I used to simply turn it off a lot of time when I did Sean's car which was my original TE converted to what it ended up as, bits of everything

Thanks Mal. I kinda knew it could be done.

Should have just called me in the first place :)

"Can be done as I have done it a few times" Including ESC as per the original question? The whole ESC issue is why everyone has said no. So unless you've actually retro-fitted an ESC setup from another car then the answer shouldn't be "Can be done as I have done it a few times" but rather "everything but ESC" as it causes confusion.

"Thanks Mal. I kinda knew it could be done." Everything except the ESC that is.

Also, be mindful that if you're going to add things like abs there's a bit more to it than simply bolting in the abs pump and adding some sensors. Things like cutting a (fairly large) hole in the firewall for the abs loom, new brake lines to suit the abs pump, new brake lines to the calipers themselves (might only be the rear lines from memory, can't remember), sensor rings for the driveshafts, need an auto ecu with the immobilser removed (or a complete ecu/bem/key/barrel/lock kit), basically need a complete loom swap...quite a lot of work. I'm certainly in no hurry to do it again.

As others have said, it's much easier to start off with an auto and manual convert it. I wouldn't be adding tcl to the manual though as it's far too intrusive in manual form imo.

So it can be done, but it is a major job. Whether you can get the bits needed, and whether you end up with a car that helps or fights against a young driver is something else.

Learning to drive in your first car with all the aids though? What happens if junior gets into a car without all the aids, and expects it to respond the same?

I drove a 380 and sure, you can hammer the throttle and brakes without the car doing dangerous things, but I learnt better in a less capable car. What if junior learns that being rough with the car is normal - and he gets into an "unassisted" car and drives the same?

<snip>
Learning to drive in your first car with all the aids though? What happens if junior gets into a car without all the aids, and expects it to respond the same?
Thats a different question Max, albiet an important one. I suspect the best thing would be for the government to set a date to retire all cars not equipped with true ESC and provide a new tax to fund re-imbursement to owners on the old cars. I'm sure that idea would go down like a solid lead balloon with almost everyone though... lol

Thats a different question Max, albiet an important one. I suspect the best thing would be for the government to set a date to retire all cars not equipped with true ESC and provide a new tax to fund re-imbursement to owners on the old cars. I'm sure that idea would go down like a solid lead balloon with almost everyone though... lol

Sure. As long as the changeover price doesn't cost me more than $50, I'd be in favour. Get all those non ESC equipped clunkers off the road before they kill us all!

Well we're in a tangent now aren't we.

This was just me having champagne taste on a beer budget. Money is tight, I got the kid his first car. It's basic but clean and straight. Good enough for a first car.

But, then I got all panicky and figured he'd need some traction control.... on top of the ABS and EBD.

I'd love to have given him the same learning opportunities I had, learning to drive on a farm. All I can do is what I am doing, by at least doubling his required driving hours in my AWD.

Bit of luck the car, the manual FWD Magna, will be in his hands soon so he can get a feel for it.