Hi, We have a tj vrx magna and the timing belt has just broke and destroyed the engine
the car has roughly 140000kms on it, so not very high k's

So the timing belt was changed by previous owner at around 80000kms and when we bought it we got it done at 105000kms by a mechanic as it had been 5 yrs since it was done (got a mechanic to do it for piece of mind :eek2: )

the mechanic replaced:
water pump
timing belt kit (mbtk16) which from investigation includes:
Timing Belt - optibelt brand
Timing Belt Tensioner (non-hydraulic)
Timing Belt Idler
Timing Belt Seal Kit (3 seals)

the belt lasted around 40000kms/ 1.5 years

I spoke to the mechanic that did the work and he pretty much said that sometimes it happens, not much you can do about it. he wasnt rude or anything but obviously wasnt going to take the blame for it.

what i want to know is by replacing all those parts, what could have caused it? i presume the seals are to prevent oil getting onto the belt? or is it possible to still have the cam belt leak oil onto the timing belt?
water pump was new so it should be fine, idler and tensioners were replaced. Is there any other cause of timing belt fail that could be not the mechanics fault apart from a faulty product?

so do i have any options, should i talk to fair trading or am i wasting my time and should i just move on

any info would be appreciated

Sorry to hear that...so...when will parts be available.

Just found this at the same time I read your post.

Mitsubishi Magna wrecking,
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/caboolture/wrecking/mitsubishi-magna-wrecking/1084669563

belts have warranty

Sorry to hear that...so...when will parts be available.

Just found this at the same time I read your post.

Mitsubishi Magna wrecking,
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/caboo...ing/1084669563
Im not sure what im going to do with the car, it'd be a shame to pull a part a car that only has 140000kms on it... might look at a second hand engine


belts have warranty
I have been told that the belt has a warranty but all they do is send me a new timing belt, they wont fix the engine, I dont think I have much use for a timing belt at the moment

3.8 sounds good

Timing Belt - optibelt brand
Timing Belt Tensioner (non-hydraulic)

Never heard of this brand, and non-hydraulic tensioner? No such thing, is there?

...So the timing belt was changed by previous owner at around 80000kms and when we bought it we got it done at 105000kms by a mechanic as it had been 5 yrs since it was done (got a mechanic to do it for piece of mind :eek2: )

the mechanic replaced:
water pump
timing belt kit (mbtk16) which from investigation includes:
Timing Belt - optibelt brand
Timing Belt Tensioner (non-hydraulic)
Timing Belt Idler
Timing Belt Seal Kit (3 seals)

...Is there any other cause of timing belt fail that could be not the mechanics fault apart from a faulty product?



I see that the tensioner pulley was replaced, but not the hydraulic tensioner.
Chances are it wasn't replaced in the first belt replacement either.
12+ years and 2 belt replacements on the original belt hydraulic tensioner rings alarm bells for me.

Sounds like a good time to slap in a 3.8, don't part it out.

When i had my belt done, i supplied the parts, all OEM. Done by Mits in newcastle. When asked about the tensioner they told me in their experience every second change you'd get away with the tensioner. So I went with that but then got a call to say mine was leaking and so replaced. i wil say when I got the parts back (my request all old parts returned) I have to say I saw no evidence of leakage, just some balck residue from the belt fibres.

Regardless, the best practice and safest option is to replace the lot especially with an interference engine.

I'd be reading the fine print on whoever made the kit for warranty and give it a crack. Fitted by a qualified mechanic and sounds like a fob off. Very hard to prove much too, could have been incorrectly tensioned but I'd check out the tensioner and see if in fact it was defective. Not going to bring this back to life but I always like to try and find th epoint of failure.

Motors appear to be fairly cheap to source used. How extensive is the engine damage? I brought a 6A12 motor back to life but it needed 19 of 24 valves replaced and had damage to the head in a chamber and top of 1 piston had a decent impression in it's crown.

hey everyone, thanks for the replies
I havent had a chance to look at the damage yet, but ill check it over and see if I can figure out what caused it, then ill go from there, if nothing looks obvious then i wont bother pursuing it as no one is going to take the blame for it (if it was there fault).

Ive put it in the shed at the moment until i decide what the next step is... if i lived in victoria, id grab an engine from mitsfix and chuck it in, but theres not many engines (with low k's) around where i live which makes it a little more difficult (i live near port macquarie, nsw. not qld anymore as it says in my avatar)

Sadly this is not the first Optibelt I have seen or heard of breaking

This is the issue with everyone wanting the cheapest belt (not OP of course as he brought the car like this)

This is why we use Japanese belts and if we fit a belt we will warrant that belt for the 100k or 5 years (the manufacturer will warrant for 12 months)

I spoke to the mechanic that did the work and he pretty much said that sometimes it happens, not much you can do about it. he wasnt rude or anything but obviously wasnt going to take the blame for it.

Sure it happens, but it is less likely with a quality belt.


Sadly this is not the first Optibelt I have seen or heard of breaking

Is this a case of a mechanic buying the cheapest parts he can find irrespective of quality, knowing he can shrug his shoulders and let the customer wear the consequences of failure?

Mechanic probably invoiced the belt at the normal price for a quality belt, ie using the cheaper belt ups his profit margin, but leaves the customer in the lurch if the cheap belt fails.

"sometimes it happens" seriously

I have not had it happen with a Sun belt EVER, I have been using the same belt for over 10 years and to this day never a failure.

One of my suppliers has been pushing for me to use these Optibelts and I simply refuse.

what are Gates belts like? That's what's in mine

Gates, Bosch, Dayco, all good.

One of my suppliers has been pushing for me to use these Optibelts and I simply refuse.

Supplier more interested in a bigger profit margin, I'm guessing.

Sun, Gates, Goodyear, Dayco are all good brands.

This crowd supplies belts to Japanese assembled Mitsubishis:

http://www.gatesunitta.com/gates-unitta

Easily recognised by blue writing, the other brands use white.

==========================================
FROM:http://www.edingtonagencies.com.au/opti_belts

Optibelt offers a full range of top quality products for all drive systems. In production, development and in service Optibelt has set the standard for V Belts and Timing Belts for decades. Drive products from Optibelt are in operation on every continent, setting in motion every type of machine and vehicle. In addition, Optibelt develops customised special drive solutions to suit many customer specific applications.

Optibelt is a market leader for Timing Belts and V Belts.

====================================

Decades? Market leader? Mucho BS Hype?

FROM:http://www.optibelt.com/en/optibelt-group/about-optibelt.html

====================================

The family-run company employs around 1800 employees worldwide. From the headquarters in Höxter (North Rhine-Westphalia), the Arntz OPTIBELT Group runs eight production locations in six countries.

=======================================

Pretty much impossible to tell where they come from, then. Bet Japan isn't one of their production sites.

what are Gates belts like? That's what's in mine

GATES is OEM. Genuine belt is UNITTA known as UNITTA GATES japan or at least was in mine originally and the replacement

GATES is OEM. Genuine belt is UNITTA known as UNITTA GATES japan or at least was in mine originally and the replacement

Ha! Beat you to it!

I can vouch for the original Japanese Gates - Unitta belts, seem to have a good safety margin well past the normal change interval, on a CH Lancer at least.

that's good to know. Thanks

that's good to know. Thanks

Yep. Gates is good.

Imagine getting a mechanic to install an inferior part, paying him approx $1K, having it all go wrong, then him saying "not my problem, sh#t happens"?

You would be rather annoyed, to say the least!

if it is that blue one in the avatar it looks worth the effort

How far can you travel for a motor
if low KM engines are hard to source ... in your local area

You may have to settle for a higher Km motor than original was.... will be cheaper

even look at a re ring and bearing -heads recon

Are you able to do the engine replacement yourself ?
if not keep it registered for it for as long as it takes

if you try to sell it as if you wont get much

if you can do the work
plan out the job ahead of you

pull the old motor out now and strip it down to the block and heads=.$.scrap money

Hi, We have a tj vrx magna and the timing belt has just broke and destroyed the engine
the car has roughly 140000kms on it, so not very high k's

So the timing belt was changed by previous owner at around 80000kms and when we bought it we got it done at 105000kms by a mechanic as it had been 5 yrs since it was done (got a mechanic to do it for piece of mind :eek2: )

the mechanic replaced:
water pump
timing belt kit (mbtk16) which from investigation includes:
Timing Belt - optibelt brand
Timing Belt Tensioner (non-hydraulic)
Timing Belt Idler
Timing Belt Seal Kit (3 seals)

the belt lasted around 40000kms/ 1.5 years

I spoke to the mechanic that did the work and he pretty much said that sometimes it happens, not much you can do about it. he wasnt rude or anything but obviously wasnt going to take the blame for it.

what i want to know is by replacing all those parts, what could have caused it? i presume the seals are to prevent oil getting onto the belt? or is it possible to still have the cam belt leak oil onto the timing belt?
water pump was new so it should be fine, idler and tensioners were replaced. Is there any other cause of timing belt fail that could be not the mechanics fault apart from a faulty product?

so do i have any options, should i talk to fair trading or am i wasting my time and should i just move on

any info would be appreciated

I bet he didn't even change it but charged you for it.

yes ill definately be checking the brand of timing belt that is used if i ever need one done again.

its not the blue one, that was my previous one, its a white tj vrx

ive found a couple of damaged cars in the sydney area with low k's but the thought of trying to drive through there with a car trailer and those narrow roads and all those cars makes me very anxious :eek2:

i would do the work myself, just need to find the right engine, its got about 3 months rego left so hopefully have it sorted by then.

thanks to everyone who has contributed

hey thought id post an update, incase anyone was interested and also id feel bad if i blamed optibelt and it wasnt there fault :)

so this was the culprit
http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0341.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0341.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0339.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0339.jpg.html)

the bolt that holds it on snapped straight in half, why would this have happened?

A weak bolt - does happen.
Overtightened when installed. (factory? Not likely!)
Something went tight and put strain on the belt and the idler mounting bolt.

Basically, though - it snapped, cause unknown.

As the chain of events that led to failure is unknown, the broken bolt may be a CONSEQUENCE rather than a CAUSE.
(The old "cause and effect" problem - did the belt fail and break the bolt, or did the bolt fail and break the belt?)

The bolt breaking all by itself would release tension on the belt, it would jump teeth and clash the valves, and the engine would stop, but the belt should be largely intact. If the belt developed problems and stressed the idler, leading to the bolt breaking, the condition of the belt would tell all.

My bet is that the belt developed a problem first. Be nice to see a picture of that belt, though.

a lot can happen when all that horsepower is released in a confined space but...he probably overtightened the bolt.

We have seen this many times, can be the bolt was over tightened and can also be the pre tensioner can also be the cause due to the tensioner not working correctly and the chatter you sometimes hear on cold mornings.

Either way, a good quality Japanese belt will be fine, dont need to go and get genuine as Mitsubishi dont actually make belts, or much for that matter

a lot can happen when all that horsepower is released in a confined space but...he probably overtightened the bolt.

No reason to touch that bolt during a belt change though? The only bolt that needs loosening/tightening during a belt change is the one that goes through the idler itself.

I have seen Mitsu make running changes to bolts that didn't cope well with normal stresses though. The old 4 cylinder engines had a pivoting bolt on one of the chain guides that was first upgraded material wise, then the size of the threaded part was enlarged in later models.

No reason to touch that bolt during a belt change though? The only bolt that needs loosening/tightening during a belt change is the one that goes through the idler itself.

Correct Max, is how we do it, we lock the pre tensioner and dont touch either of these units

This site has some pictures of the faces of shorn bolts and some discussion about the forces that may cause such.

http://www.marineengineering.org.uk/page106.html

This site has some pictures of the faces of shorn bolts and some discussion about the forces that may cause such.

http://www.marineengineering.org.uk/page106.html

Interesting read!

If you look at the pictures in post #24, the bolt through the idler has paint missing, but the head of the sheared bolt hasn't.
Tends to suggest the sheared bolt wasn't touched by the mechanic when the new, now failed, belt was put on.

No reason to touch that bolt during a belt change though? The only bolt that needs loosening/tightening during a belt change is the one that goes through the idler itself.

.


yeah...i already knew that...however the paint looks quite worn on the bolt ....hence my comment.

Post 24 shows paint wear on the bolt in the front view Max.

.

Post 24 shows paint wear on the bolt in the front view Max..

No paint chipping on the failed bolt (lower picture) that I can see.
Top picture shows paint chipping, but that is understandable - that bolt needs backing off and doing up again when getting the belt tension correct.

That bolt does not look to have been touched by anyone, the idler pulley one sure has and needs to be, the main mounting bolt for the swing arm does not look to have been touched. This can also as stated be caused by either an over tensioned belt (rare but has happened) or the hydraulic pre tensioner has failed and caused the chattering we often hear, this can cause this bolt to also sheer.

I have one on my counter here, car had done 64k, belt had never been touched, was noisy on cold start and even often on warm start, told the customer several times to fix he did not, the motor fixed itself when the bolt broke and end result was a new motor after a tow truck ride.

Does it look like it might be ok, or is the damage done somewhere else where i cant see it?
how would i know if the rods where bent?
im going to sit oil in the head and see if oil leaks through the valves, anything else i should be testing?

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0352.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0352.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0353.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0353.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0354.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0354.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0355.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0355.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0356.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0356.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0357.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0357.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0358.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0358.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0359.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0359.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0360.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0360.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0361.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0361.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0361.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0361.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0364.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0364.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0365.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0365.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0366.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0366.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0367.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0367.jpg.html)

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx159/mat_hsv/IMG_0369.jpg (http://s751.photobucket.com/user/mat_hsv/media/IMG_0369.jpg.html)

Kersoene is a better fluid to check for leaks. The best way would be to remove the valves and check that the stems are not bent. Looking at the marks in the pistons, I doubt it. If you are a real bush mechanic, put the stem in an electric drill and spin it slowly, checking the head for runout. You should be able to lap the valves in with some grinding paste and have a 'new' engine again.

I have a set of 4 new pistons, rings, gudgeons and bigends from a 3.5 Pajero if you want them - free - you pay the postage. The other 2 pistons etc were put into my Pajero, but the originals were so good that we left them alone. I had dropped a washer into the intake and a "mechanic" fixed it badly so I had to get a friend to come and help me at home.

compared to my 6A12, looks pretty mild damage . It sheared 2 valve heads off then tried to munce them up and spit them out between the head, gasket and block. head needed some welding around one chamber, I left the piston as it was which had a sizeable divot in it. By comparion mine needed stitches, yours looks like a graze and a band -aid.

I'd try pouring fuel or as mentioned kero and see if they hold into the ports. They can look ok but some of mine were clearly bent other looked to the eye ok but in the end the final result was 19/24 valves replaced.

The old 6A12 is still running with the smacked piston and I hammer the poor thing. I think if i had had the head off, it'd be getting new seals, and a grind. "the Head men" in newcastle, that's all they do and the welded area and machning so good i could not see the area welded. For a 330 000k motor it has the smoothest most perfect idle which I put down to all the headwork
Not sure if putting the inlet manifold surfaces down on rough concrete is a good idea though

Only two of the 4 valves in each cylinder kissed the pistons.
You can see which - the larger intake valves.
Sit the heads level with the combustion chambers up and fill with water. You will soon find which valve heads are bent.

I reckon you might be okay.

I've repaired two 6g75's that lost a cam belt....worse than that and the piston dents were far worse.

The rocker arms smashed and the valves were fine...it's just a case of luck or not....but rocker arms seem to give up first.

how are the rocker arms?

In any event about 300 bucks for a pair of heads and you don't have to even think about it.

The block will be ok I reckon...drain it out though...LOL

It makes me depressed looking at this and realizing how its such an incredibly minor deal for car engines. $300 for a PAIR of heads? with 12 valves each?
It would cost me $1000 for a single cylinder head on a motorcycle. /sigh its flapping BS how expensive bike parts are

It makes me depressed looking at this and realizing how its such an incredibly minor deal for car engines. $300 for a PAIR of heads? with 12 valves each?
It would cost me $1000 for a single cylinder head on a motorcycle. /sigh its flapping BS how expensive bike parts are

Wait till you see how many bits have to come of the car to change two heads...labour in a workshop would be huge if not doing it yourself..I'd rather the motorcycle any day.

erad
Kersoene is a better fluid to check for leaks. The best way would be to remove the valves and check that the stems are not bent. Looking at the marks in the pistons, I doubt it. If you are a real bush mechanic, put the stem in an electric drill and spin it slowly, checking the head for runout. You should be able to lap the valves in with some grinding paste and have a 'new' engine again.

I have a set of 4 new pistons, rings, gudgeons and bigends from a 3.5 Pajero if you want them - free - you pay the postage. The other 2 pistons etc were put into my Pajero, but the originals were so good that we left them alone. I had dropped a washer into the intake and a "mechanic" fixed it badly so I had to get a friend to come and help me at home.

ill use some kerosene to check them, thanks for the offer on the parts but if i cant get it working as is, or with very minor work then ill either grab a low km engine or part it out


TW2005
compared to my 6A12, looks pretty mild damage . It sheared 2 valve heads off then tried to munce them up and spit them out between the head, gasket and block. head needed some welding around one chamber, I left the piston as it was which had a sizeable divot in it. By comparion mine needed stitches, yours looks like a graze and a band -aid.

I'd try pouring fuel or as mentioned kero and see if they hold into the ports. They can look ok but some of mine were clearly bent other looked to the eye ok but in the end the final result was 19/24 valves replaced.

The old 6A12 is still running with the smacked piston and I hammer the poor thing. I think if i had had the head off, it'd be getting new seals, and a grind. "the Head men" in newcastle, that's all they do and the welded area and machning so good i could not see the area welded. For a 330 000k motor it has the smoothest most perfect idle which I put down to all the headwork
Not sure if putting the inlet manifold surfaces down on rough concrete is a good idea though

thanks for the info, and after i took the photos they were wrapped up in some old sheets so they dont get damaged :happy:


MadMax
Only two of the 4 valves in each cylinder kissed the pistons.
You can see which - the larger intake valves.
Sit the heads level with the combustion chambers up and fill with water. You will soon find which valve heads are bent.
yep, ill check them out, ill stick to the kerosene though as some people say that water could cause rust in there over time???


zilo
I reckon you might be okay.

I've repaired two 6g75's that lost a cam belt....worse than that and the piston dents were far worse.

The rocker arms smashed and the valves were fine...it's just a case of luck or not....but rocker arms seem to give up first.

how are the rocker arms?

In any event about 300 bucks for a pair of heads and you don't have to even think about it.

The block will be ok I reckon...drain it out though...LOL

the rocker arms seemed to be ok, ill check them in more detail though


Millenium7
It makes me depressed looking at this and realizing how its such an incredibly minor deal for car engines. $300 for a PAIR of heads? with 12 valves each?
It would cost me $1000 for a single cylinder head on a motorcycle. /sigh its flapping BS how expensive bike parts are
like zilo said, it might cost more for the head but you save it in labour so it'd be roughly the same price in the end, if not more for the car, so dont be too depressed :facejump:

For starters even if doing this yourself a new motor is cheaper than doing the heads

You will NOT bend rods on one of these motors from touching valves, if you really want to keep this motor then do the heads and get it running again. Just be aware that the motor will never be as good as it was prior and if you really want to do this properly dial the cams as when you shave the heads you will alter cam timing ever so slightly

Man, the pistons copped it didn't they?! The valves on the other hand appear to be ok, however are probably bent like crazy.

I'm coming in late but you might ask the mechanic if the bolts were tightened with an air impact or rattle gun. That could break or fatigue the bolt. Should use a tension wrench for every bolt.