hey all,

i am very serious on the idea of spacing out my rims and pumping the guards to match.
Now, i am just going to totally ignore the legalities of this mod so no need to remind me. What i want to know is what can go wrong and break if i do this modification. Everything will remain the same suspension wise (well i will be replacing the shocks later) just a spacer between the rim and the hub. I will pump the guard out accordingly and respray the guard. having a wider track i believe will improve handling but does anyone out there have and idea of side effects or benifits in doing this.

Cheers
Jase

??? i cant see why pumping the guard will change anything xcept for the panel that is pumped. if anything i think it would be better than normal

from the other thread I believe your contemplating fitting a 20mm spacer. Might not sound like much, but 2cm worth of thread has suddenly gone, what are your wheel nuts going to tension up to?!?! Even if they do bolt on, they probably wont be held by much. I cant see that being too safe unless you plan on modifying your hubs to get longer bolts installed (if this is even possible???). :confused:

cant you buy longer studs? i remember when my wood work teacher snapped a stud taking his wheels off to put mags on it he called me and asked me what to do so i went round ther and we got new studs that wer longer than the originals.....

Sounds like an idea to me! not sure wether this poses any safety problems or not but I doubt it :confused:

Longer studs are the go ... but 20mm is a lot and could be at the limits of the bolts strength... meaning they may snap more often.. I would consider different offset rims. Say +35 instead of +46

I needed to space my rims out 8mm (I think my offset was already wrong as the fronts poked out a little) to get the brembos to fit. This means I will be "rolling" the guards also, as they stick out nearly 13mm each.

from the other thread I believe your contemplating fitting a 20mm spacer. Might not sound like much, but 2cm worth of thread has suddenly gone, what are your wheel nuts going to tension up to?!?! Even if they do bolt on, they probably wont be held by much. I cant see that being too safe unless you plan on modifying your hubs to get longer bolts installed (if this is even possible???). :confused:
The spacer i'm looking at is made to suit the car. u bolt the spacer to the current studs and u bolt the wheel onto new studs on the spacer. The guy who showed me has them on his R33 GTS-T and pumped his guards to suit

The spacer i'm looking at is made to suit the car. u bolt the spacer to the current studs and u bolt the wheel onto new studs on the spacer. The guy who showed me has them on his R33 GTS-T and pumped his guards to suit
Ahh..clever :thumbsup:

hehe thats a good idea!! i rekon its a goer, a magna with pumped guards that'd looks sick :shock:

just make sure the guard wont look out of place on the magnas body...

dont want silly looking guards mucking up ur ride jason!

good thing is if it all goes wrong, Magna quarter panels are not that expensive.

Two things will probably go wrong. Fistly, you are changing the offset. This is a front wheel drive car. You will get horrible torque steer, bump steer and tramlining.
Secondly, spacers are illegal on the street for a very good reason..they are dangerous! You will put considerable strain on those wheel studs, the bearings and hubs.
The bearings and hubs are designed to have the load spread evenly through the centreline of the hub. What you are going to do is side load the hub and bearings continuously, the bearings and hub will have loads on them similar to cornering loads constantly, and when cornering, considerably more.

Regards, Andrew.

The man has a point :stoopid:

thanks for that,

just a question, what would the load differences be between having wheel spacers and having different offset rims to suit the guards.

thanks

^^ F'all, you are still changing the centrifugal mass centre of the wheel, either using spacers or changing the offset of the wheel. At least if you don't use a spacer there is slightly less stress on the wheel studs but mate, changing offset by 20mm is both illegal and very stupid just to fit some bigger brakes on.

20mm is a lot. But it is only 7mm a side past legal ;). Most states allow you to increase wheel track by 26mm (13mm a side).

That measurement is to maintain the safety of the suspension/steering components. Given that it will have a **massive** margin for safety ... it is extremely unlikely that anything will break at 26mm. Yes, there is increased wear on the wheel bearing and it will need replacing more often (maybe once every 6-8 years instead of the life of the car).

Evo lancers use a VERY similar front knuckle (if not the same), and they run a +35 offset.

"20mm is a lot. But it is only 7mm a side past legal" :shock: The blase nature in which you use the word "only" is worrying. Do you know what happens when a wheel bearing seizes up or breaks in half due to such dramatic suspension changes? Their wheel can fall off the car. I doubt insurance would cover you either in such an instance even if you are "only" 7mm over legal.

"but i was only a little bit over...."

Bloody idiot....... :bowrofl:

i dont know much about this topic. But does anyone know how much it will cost to pump the guards out? I need to do it as my rims are 2 wide and stick out 2 much..

I had a friend who owned a modeo and on the way back from Melbourne, had two studs from
each wheel snapped off because the tyre place fitted wrong offset wheels and instead of
fitting on the proper wheels, had spacers put in. It was an experience not to have ever again.
Imagine cruising at 110km/hr with four people in the car and a boot full of lugage and the studs
snapping off and the whole car started to wobble.

pumping guards are expensive.... esp if u want them pumped alot....
labour isnt cheap... and they will crack all the paint so they need to repaint that entire panel...

i got quoted $1100 so i thought stuff that didnt bother shopping elsewhere

Yes, there is increased wear on the wheel bearing and it will need replacing more often (maybe once every 6-8 years instead of the life of the car)
I'll be replaceing the the hubs neway before they go on the car so as long as i get 5 years out of them i'll be happy

are you gunna pump the rear guards aswell? wake it match and make it so u can go heaps lower...

Samurai you moron ... what do you think the wink was for!!

I would go to the 13mm a side max (using wheel offset not spacers ... which is LEGAL!!)... and then look for rims that have better clearance. I am not suggesting he should run past the 13mm at all.

26mm wider in wheel track is SAFE. The RTA wouldn't allow it otherwise ... so get over it you bunch of backyard engineers. :bowrofl: also if TZA uses the knuckle (and possibly some other bits n pieces) from a GTO (and they have a MASSIVE wheel track on a car thats 200kg heavier than a TS) he can get it engineered and still have it legal.

Yes I currently run spacers (and longer studs to make up for the lost thread in the spacer), 8mm on +42 ET rims. so am at 12mm extra track a side. I will be changing the rims over to +32-34 offset soon to ditch the spacers.

^^ Re-read his post, he said 20mm spaces which equates to a 40mm track change. Who's the backyard scholar then?

tek--, get off the high horse ... or the pedestal ... you might fall and hurt yourself.

I know tza said 20mm. I have highlighted that in a number of my posts. I am recommending to him to go the 13mm decrease in ET offset, and at the same time try and find rims that have better clearance.

If that still doesn't work then an engineer is required.

tza, I would now suggest speaking to someone who is a signatory, that will put to rest any of the "oh so talented" comments. You can be sure its all good then.

^^ What is this high horse or pedestal you are talking about? What's this backyard engineer you are talking about?

I am referring to a 20mm increase in offset being dangerous, I never said 13mm (RTA limit) was dangerous.

Jase i think its all starting to get to hard, time to sell up and buy yourself a 3rd Gen...

Whats this about cracking paint.... Haven't you guys heard of those places that softly heat up your guard first so they paint won't crack.. And they only charge like $100 all up i think.. Takes no time at to do aswell from what i was told..

I've seen a car after it was done and it was perfect...

I am referring to a 20mm increase in offset being dangerous, I never said 13mm (RTA limit) was dangerous.

BINGO! How do you know its dangerous? You are now the backyard engineer I was referring too! Yes the RTA have set the limit at 26mm to cater FOR ALL VEHICLES!!! What if the knuckle, suspension and wheel bearing are EXACTLY the same in the TS as the GTO ... then you could possibly be expected to go as wide as the GTO AND STILL BE SAFE.

My point is YOU DON'T KNOW THE LIMITS OF THE HARDWARE!

I am not saying it is safe ... but **YOU** cannot categorically say it isn't!

Jase i think its all starting to get to hard, time to sell up and buy yourself a 3rd Gen...
Well i've got Ralliart Boy's 2002 Ralliart for a few days. i might have to sell up and get a 3rd gen because everyone notices you in a ralliart :cool:


tza, I would now suggest speaking to someone who is a signatory, that will put to rest any of the "oh so talented" comments. You can be sure its all good then.
Thanks for your help tooslow, i plan to look down both paths to see if i can source different wheels or get spacers and pump the guard.

Whatever happens, sooner or later my TS will have huge brakes behind a set of 18's

BINGO! How do you know its dangerous? You are now the backyard engineer I was referring too! Yes the RTA have set the limit at 26mm to cater FOR ALL VEHICLES!!! What if the knuckle, suspension and wheel bearing are EXACTLY the same in the TS as the GTO ... then you could possibly be expected to go as wide as the GTO AND STILL BE SAFE.

My point is YOU DON'T KNOW THE LIMITS OF THE HARDWARE!

I am not saying it is safe ... but **YOU** cannot categorically say it isn't!

The only way to know is to try it then. If the offset on the GTO is vastly different to that of a TS, then it does not make sense to use the same steering knuckle as it will not be an optimal design. You present just as many hypotheticals as you accuse me of implying.

Don't forget when you are changing the offset of a wheel you are also changing the effective spring rate of the suspension.

BTW no need to use insults mate as I haven't, so how about you get off your high horse/pedestal/whatever.

The only way to know is to try it then. If the offset on the GTO is vastly different to that of a TS, then it does not make sense to use the same steering knuckle as it will not be an optimal design. You present just as many hypotheticals as you accuse me of implying.
There is no offset difference between the GTO and the TS, the steering knucles are near identical. The reason i wanted/needed to use them is because of the mounting points for the caliper i wished to use. The idea of changing the offset was to make my current 18's fit over the calipers because they are so much wider than a stock caliper. Seeing my 18's wont fit over the caliper my options are either get new rims or get spacers to push the wheel out and pump the guards to suit

You present just as many hypotheticals as you accuse me of implying.

I didn't accuse you of implying anything. You categorically stated that it would be unsafe. You have yet to furnish us with any evidence to suggest you are qualified to make that assessment. If anything I am suggesting you are making statements outside your realm of expertise.


BTW no need to use insults mate as I haven't, so how about you get off your high horse/pedestal/whatever.

The high horse is your continued harping on about how it isn't safe. We don't know ... we should leave it to the professionals.



changing offset by 20mm is both illegal and very stupid just to fit some bigger brakes on.


Perhaps its a case of "tall poppy syndrome". So TZA wants to put bigger brakes on ... he has to modify his car to suit ... so you shot him down with a statement like that ... I am sure TZA will do everything needed to ensure his car is safe ... to suggest he is stupid when you aren't qualified to comment is the insult!

gremlin. ur talking about ROLLING the guards. where they role the little lip on the insdie of the guard up so it doenst rub on bumps.

TZA wants to pump the guard so it sticks out further...

O.K calm down a bit here...
The RTA allows an increase in track width to allow people to fit wider rims. They assume that most normal people will consult experts and fit rims that are wider but maintain offset.
If you don't think a relatively small amount of offset can considerably increase wheel bearing, stud and stub axle loading, I suggest a bit of simple maths. I am not going to show you the workings here, but 20mm change in offset on a wheel which is say 175mm( 7") wide moves the contact patch 20mm, which gives you a very considerable lever arm.
As I said in my previous post, there are other factors to consider, which are torque steer, tramlining etc. And 20mm will have a MASSIVE effect on all of them, I would say almost to the point the car would be undriveable in the rain or on anything but perfectly flat roads. I have driven cars with a measly 6mm spacer, rear wheel drive, and it affected the handling of the car. It would tramline on any tiny groove, dart left or right under brakes and was generally unpreditcable. An alignment didn't fix it either.
I think you should get wider rims with the correct offset for what you plan.
It's easy for people to say try it and see, but it's your ass, your car, your rims and your insurance on the line, so I would go and talk to an engineer and have him tell you why not, and also ask him if there is a legal( safe) way to engineer the look you want. I've seen what damage a wheel does when it comes off and jams inside a wheel well at 100km/h, and just repairing sheetmetal will cost you over $1000. Better hope the wheel doesn't travel under the car either, or your real wheel may run over it...grinding the front of your car along the ground won't help the looks either!
Government bodies don't go around making engineering laws because it's fun.
But don't listen to me, I have only been building and repairing real world street cars for 20 years...I don't pay people to bolt my new wheels on or believe what a salesman says, I do the research and learn from it.
I have never had a mechanical or structural failure.

Regards, Andrew.

Jase, the use of spacers is illegal in NSW, increase of track width is allowed to an extent.

Do you still have the PDF I sent you ages ago about the guidelines to alternative wheels and tyres? It's all in that.

so I would go and talk to an engineer and have him tell you why not, and also ask him if there is a legal( safe) way to engineer the look you want.

This is what I have been saying :) get a professional to tell you what you have to do TO MAKE IT LEGAL. You never know it could be as easy as upgrading a few parts and running the "new" correct offset..

Ok children, now that the tantrums are all over I will try and shed some light on the subject....

Lets start at the rear, the rear bearings will take more load with no problems due to the design of them. However if you are serious about doing this, which if done properly will be good in many ways, you would be better getting an engineer to slightly lengthen the rear axle and leave it at that. There is a guy in warrnambool who had his shortened to fit fats on the back. (do not ask why as I have no idea, if you foget it is a fwd it acutally looks good.) with the design of the Magna rear axle on the second Gens it is not all that hard a job. This will at least keep the load on the bearings at a rate they should be.

Front, well this is a different kettle of fish all to gether. personally I would not change track at all due to the design of the FWD assy, it is not a set up that takes kindly to amounts of load on them. While the rear runs a tapered bearing the front does not.

The track of a GTO and a Magna is pointless even getting into as it is also the width of the body, the design of the suspension arms etc etc that will determine this. I believe the hubs are almost identical however this is just from what I have read and not what I have my self seen.

If it were me, I would go and talk to a real engineer and not people here who are making uneducated guesses. (no offense intended to those who have posted BTW, you are all trying to help)

The issue of bump steer and tramlinning will not be an issue due to the rack being so far set back from the fwd design, the tie rods are fairly square to the hubs. my worry is the front bearings, at the best of times they hate excessive load. This all said, the fact you are running wider tyres will in a way take some of the load off the cruicial centre axis of the hub assy. Again I would talk to an engineer as if one of these lets go it is all over.

My other concern is the lower ball joint which has always been a rpoblem especially in the second gens, they come loose in the lower control arm and again it is all over.

Now that said, as for the actual topic, pumping guards, first get the lips strengthened with some 8mm rod welded under the lip, roll the lip and then you should be able, using heat and a port a power, pump out the rears with no problems, it is a slow process but I have done it on a few mazda's and it look almost like nothing had been done.

the fronts are about the same however you will have a lot more access.


Now for those here, who were intending well, STOP FLAMING EACH OTHER!!!! we are all entitled to post our ideas, no matter if others agree or not. I am not pointing at anyone in particular but you all know who you are. It is about time some people grew up and took lessons on how to correct someone without flaming them. Either this or many people will be taking vacations as the mods are sick of it.