Ok on my new sports... it has ABS braking and TCL traction control
My question is...
How is the best way to use ABS? ....
ie do I just slam on the brakes as hard as possiable if I need to stop in a hurry or am I better to try and feather the peddle like I would if I didnt have ABS... (this is to stop the rear-enders , like merging trafic that stops suddenly in front of you :( )
and then the TCL....
Should I use TCL or not?
I find even if I am going slowish around a round-a-bout that the TCL light flashes and I cannot speedup around and out of the corner.. :(
So am I better to have it turned off most of the time and only turn it on in the wet?

Haydn

RE: ABS - keep your foot hard on the pedal and DON'T back off until the car stops completely, the pedal will pulsate but this is just the ABS cycling the pressure on and off. Many accidents in ABS equipped cars that could have been avoided are because the drivers backed off when the pedal pulsed and they thought it meant a wheel lock up.

But also don't just slam the brakes on as you CAN lock them up with a sudden application - as usual just brush and bury so the weight gets transferred steadily over the front wheels.

As for the TCL, your choice. If you actively enjoy driving leave it off. If you just want transport turn it on.

Yeh brake as you would normally, abs is designed to stop you locking your wheels so you can steer around the object and maintain control of the vehicle. A good driver can actually brake more efficiently on dry road than an abs system as they can keep it on the verge of lockup more effectively. Stopping distances can actually be longer with abs on some surfaces such as gravel as the tyres need to lockup to "dig" down slightl below the surface for maximum friction instead of skating on the surface rocks.

a car with abs will take slightly longer than a car without abs
depending on driver etc
turn the tcl off for driving except in the wet when u need it
when the light flashes on u can't put any more power down :(
but if like to keep ur tyres in tact slightly longer then leave it on
just me but i love the sound of tyres screeching as you hammer thro a corner :badgrin:
but it is your choice

ABS is good in the magna's, just brake normally the car will sense if it needs to activate abs. I've only driven the vrx and it also has EBD (electronic brake distribution) although there is no specs of what that actually does.

TCL (traction control) on the other hand in my vrx ruins driving hard, like even if you go pretty fast through a round a bout it cuts the power, so I turn if off when I want to push the car :)

Is TCL standard on all the auto/tritronic Magna's ?????

EBD basically puts the most braking force over the wheels which are getting the most weight transfer to them. ie; if you jump on the brakes and the front of your car dives, the EBD will give the front brakes say 65% of the braking, and rear 35%.

It's just a way to help your brakes work in the most effective way!

What a world we live in

The idea of EBD has been around for yonks!!!

My first car (1969 FIAT 124 AC Coupe) had mechanical setup on the rear axle which achieved a similar thing...

I don't think many "common" cars used it bacl then though.

I leave my traction control on all the time except for when im actively driving - its pretty normal for the tcl to come on when driving around normally (for me anyway) - but i figure it might save me one day.. i always turn it off when having a drag or driving through the hills tho..

plus in any case it switches itself on again when you switch off and restart your car so i couldnt be bothered switching it off everytime i wanted to drive..

mines a th sports sa
Ben

Just to be different - I don't have ABS of TCL!! or SRS airbags!!!

Nothing!!

and it is fine!!

Manual

Me neither but i think 18s work just aswell as abs :lol:

I feel I can brake adequately enough without ABS

and good tyres help yes!!

With traction control I suggest leaving it off ALL the time!

It just takes all the fun out of driving in the dry, and I think damn dangerous in the wet!!!

I had the unfortunate experience of driving in moderately heavy rain along the princess freeway. With the way it tends to be off camber, up and down and round a number of bends, a number of little rivers run across the freeway at different points, and each time you skim across the top, traction control kicks in and trys to find traction and tends to provide a bit of feedback through the steering wheel, as well as that natural pull you get... Result: Steering wheel ripped out of hand, car flung onto medium strip.... try regaining control on wet grass.... kinda fun, but also scarey! Just missed the next lot of shrubs and bushes.

I hate traction control!!!

Steven

I have ABS and i *** hate it...
I rathe 'feel' d brakes.

A myth ive heard is if u do 'feather' the ABS itl 'stop'. Itl work again when the hard braking is over, but if the pedal is pushed a certain amount of times it stops ¿

Is TCL standard on all the auto/tritronic Magna's ?????

I don't think my auto TJ Advance has it.

[quote:5de379be21="kewlsolara"]Is TCL standard on all the auto/tritronic Magna's ?????

I don't think my auto TJ Advance has it.[/quote:5de379be21]

thats exactly what i was thinking. i think it comes in Sports and up models, my solara dosent have it either.

i tried to do a bit spinging in rain once and all i saw was the speed light coming up at 70 while tyres were spinign like hell and cars back like snake but no traction control light . may be i should try hard nextime. :evil:

If you have traction control you will have a button on the right hand side of the steering wheel "TCL"

all i could find on right hand side of steering wheel is cruise control. this means me not have TCL, dont know if i should be happy :D or sad :(

Not "ON" the steering wheel ... beside it.. nex to the dimmer switch is were thew button is.
Haydn

youll know when traction control kicks in because you will suddenly lose power even though you are accelerating. Onces the wheels get grip again you will feel the car punch out of the dead power 'zone'

Mitsu's TCL is different from other manufacturers in the way that others use brakes to hold traction, Mitsu cuts delivery of power to the wheels which I think is more effective :D

:( i dont have TCL button near the dimmer, how much will it cost to put one in. :?:

ABS should be slammed, that is what it is designed for and as for braking as well without it, yeah right whatever, ABS are supposed to shudder that is the valves working, do not ever back off when using them, as for TLC what a waste of time, just glad it's not on a manual sports or I would have it disconected, I don't get the idea of having power and just cause it wheel spins you can't have all the power you want. Turn it off and have fun, well as much fun as you can in a Auto

ABS should be slammed, that is what it is designed for and as for braking as well without it, yeah right whatever

Yeah, you're right. Keep your foot on. ABS is for people who either panic or don't have the ability to stop quickly without skidding. Locking up means no control of vehicle while skidding. People can stop in a shorter distance than ABS. That has to be the case as ABS skids, to a certain extent. Any good defensive driving course will show you the difference.

Mitsu's TCL is different from other manufacturers in the way that others use brakes to hold traction, Mitsu cuts delivery of power to the wheels which I think is more effective :D

hmm... which car's TCL uses the brakes to hold traction? i thought most TCL's work by cutting power to the wheels. cos if TCL uses the brakes to hold traction, you prob need ABS and EBD to work in tandem with it otherwise one or more of the wheels might lock and that spells trouble.

i'm pretty sure that the commodore TLC also cuts engine power, but I've herd the Magna system is smoother, well compared to a VT anyway.

[quote:4adc854b61="funky_fresian_cows"]ABS should be slammed, that is what it is designed for and as for braking as well without it, yeah right whatever

Yeah, you're right. Keep your foot on. ABS is for people who either panic or don't have the ability to stop quickly without skidding. Locking up means no control of vehicle while skidding. People can stop in a shorter distance than ABS. That has to be the case as ABS skids, to a certain extent. Any good defensive driving course will show you the difference.[/quote:4adc854b61]

if you're doing E-brakes in a straight line, a car WITHOUT ABS would stop faster because of the fact that when the wheels lock, you skid, as a result generate more friction between tyre and road, and that is the best stopping power (assuming your tyres are not bald). i think alot of ppl have the misconception that ABS actually helps you stop faster in a straight line. that's not true. ABS was primarily put in cars to help ppl swerve out of an obstacle ahead in an emergency by preventing the wheels from locking so you can maintain traction and maximum steering wheel control. a car equipped without ABS and driven by a non-trained driver would have got into alot of trouble in this situation cos you panic, jam the brakes, wheels lock, try to swerve around obstacle ahead but can't, and ultimately, make a bigger mess out of it.

...wheels lock, you skid, as a result generate more friction between tyre and road, and that is the best stopping power.

Um... skidding isn't the best stoping power. You're right about ABS allowing the driver to regain some control over the vehicle while braking and swerving. ABS won't stop it from skidding, it needs the skidding as a part of it's function. That's why you see skidmarks, (on the road), where it looks like it's on-off-on-off-on-off braking - that's it doing it's stuff.

If you had a car skidding and the same car braking corectly, the car that skidded to a halt will definately travel further than the other car.

[quote:260e5831e7="alf77"]...wheels lock, you skid, as a result generate more friction between tyre and road, and that is the best stopping power.

Um... skidding isn't the best stoping power. You're right about ABS allowing the driver to regain some control over the vehicle while braking and swerving. ABS won't stop it from skidding, it needs the skidding as a part of it's function. That's why you see skidmarks, (on the road), where it looks like it's on-off-on-off-on-off braking - that's it doing it's stuff.

If you had a car skidding and the same car braking corectly, the car that skidded to a halt will definately travel further than the other car.[/quote:260e5831e7]

i shouldn't have used the word 'skid' maybe. but what i meant is when the wheels lock (stop rotating totally), you get a hell lot of friction build-up between tyre and road (think rubbing a rubber eraser on a rough surface. that's ALOT of friction. and if you added threads to the eraser, that's even more friction.) and That, i was trying to say, is the best stopping power. 'best' as in better than if the wheels were allowed to continue rotating before coming to a stop. however, if you're braking on ice or wet roads, that's a whole different theory again. well my theory is different from yours and i might be right or wrong :)

Just before skidding, there's a lot of friction. That's what pushing the envelope aims at doing. Once you're over that friction point, it's all over. Braking at 99% will stop quicker than skidding. Don't worry, I'm not flaming ya. I think I can understand where you're coming from.

what do you mean where i'm coming from? anyway, i am all for sharing of opinions in this forum. if i got my facts wrong i'd be more than happy to be corrected :D

I was hoping someone else would have chimed in by now. I feel that rubber, rubbing on bitumen and having the greatest force for stopping is a misconception. A rolling tyre pushs against the ground, this is rolling resistance. A rolling tyre under heavy brakes can push harder. Once it's not rolling but skdding, it's not pushing anymore, it's sliding and you're loosing rubber. Doing this on a wet surface exagurates the distance but it's the same wet or dry.

EBD basically puts the most braking force over the wheels which are getting the most weight transfer to them. ie; if you jump on the brakes and the front of your car dives, the EBD will give the front brakes say 65% of the braking, and rear 35%.

It's just a way to help your brakes work in the most effective way!


The idea of EBD has been around for yonks!!!

My first car (1969 FIAT 124 AC Coupe) had mechanical setup on the rear axle which achieved a similar thing...

I don't think many "common" cars used it bacl then though.

Forgive me while i have a little laugh.
EBD , electronic brake force distribution. now tell me for a start how this can be done mechanicly and in 1969? EBD is computer controlled just like ABS and like ABS is a safety feature for stability when hard braking around corners or in adverse conditions. Kind of like in that new holden vectra add how they simply put it " were wankers putting old technology in the new holdens and calling it new and our own" ,... oh they also said "wheels that can talk to eachother" and that's basicly what it does, many traction control units in newer 4wd's use ABS and EBD to maintain tracking at slow speeds when 4wd you can see it happen on a Pajero add.

Anyway back to the topic.

Um, well when you skid you now lose the braking force you need to stop quickly, wet or dry, wet is a good example cause we all know how far a car will slide/skid in the wet, called aqua planning. Same in the dry but to a lesser degree, you lose the force needed to stop and end up skidding on the surface of the road, this is not good stopping power, think for a minute watching motor racing if they lock the brakes what happens, opps off the track or in the back of another car, so if locking the brakes was the quickest way of stopping why would motor racing guys try so hard not to do it. ABS stops the average motorist from doing that, but most don't know how to use it properly and when you do it is one of the major cause of rearenders, the guy behind you doesn't have ABS and slams up the back as he can't stop as quick.... just a few thoughts for ya

Um, well when you skid you now lose the braking force you need to stop quickly, wet or dry, wet is a good example cause we all know how far a car will slide/skid in the wet, called aqua planning.

I dont think its called aqua planeing, that is simply loss of traction or a skid. Aqua planning is when your tyres cannot clear away the water fast enough or there is too much water and there is a thin film of water between your tyres and the road so your wheels arnt touching the ground anymore but actually riding on water thus total loss of traction and the car will go completely out of control and most likely sideways

[quote:0692064d7d]
Forgive me while i have a little laugh.
EBD , electronic brake force distribution. now tell me for a start how this can be done mechanicly and in 1969?
[/quote:0692064d7d]

It used a pivoting arm on the rear axle which was basically a valve that restricted the amount of brake fluid flowing out of it to the rear brake calipers.

EBD is primarily intended to allow the most of the braking force to go to the wheels which have most of traction so the whole braking system can work more effectively. It works independently of ABS.

It used a pivoting arm on the rear axle which was basically a valve that restricted the amount of brake fluid flowing out of it to the rear brake calipers.

EBD is primarily intended to allow the most of the braking force to go to the wheels which have most of traction so the whole braking system can work more effectively. It works independently of ABS.

Ill come back when you find out what EBD is and how it works

It works by optimizing the brake force distribution going to the front and rear wheels (and left and right).

Sorry I wrote that around the wrong way before. ABS works independently of EBD...sorry *doh*

thus total loss of traction and the car will go completely out of control and most likely sideways

That's a bit of a generalisation. If you are travelling in a straight line and all four wheels lose traction then absolutely nothing at all will happen. If you are turning and your front wheels lose traction then you will continue in the direction the car is pointing at the time you lose traction. If you are turning and your back wheels lose it you will probably spin.

It only gets exciting if some (or one) wheel aqua planes and some don't, and even then it would probably have to be the driven wheels to have the most effect.

That's a bit of a generalisation. If you are travelling in a straight line and all four wheels lose traction then absolutely nothing at all will happen. If you are turning and your front wheels lose traction then you will continue in the direction the car is pointing at the time you lose traction. If you are turning and your back wheels lose it you will probably spin.

It only gets exciting if some (or one) wheel aqua planes and some don't, and even then it would probably have to be the driven wheels to have the most effect.

Yeah so i take it you dont do high speed braking , you will notice that when race car's brake there tails go up in the air and they get a little happy and wag from side to side , this is because the front brakes are always more powerful then the rear so if you lock up all the brakes dont be suprised when the back wants to keep going and thus start going a little bit sideways.

But i guess you will never have to worry about that when you aquaplane in the middle of the desert in the dry season

cthulhu,
how can nothing happen when all 4 wheels lose traction? I thought that is the last thing you want to happen.

As for whoever said skidding is the best way to stop in the dry,well thats been coverd but I will give an example(or two):

A tyre will always have less grip if it is skidding(little or no traction) than a tyre that is rolling just enough not to lock up, i.e it still has 100% traction.

It is the same when you turn a corner real fast, the rear end will only swing sidways if the rear wheels lose traction and start skidding! (RWD being a good example)

As for ABS needing skidding to stop quicker, this is incorrect. It only skids in pulses because the brake presure is applied untill slip is detected than it is lessend untill traction is regained at whitch point brake pressure is reapplied untill it looses traction again ect...ect.. hence you get the pulsating effect.

If a system was able to constantlly give just the right amount of pressure before lockup this would be the ultimate braking system for control and shortest stopping distance, but as of yet this is still not possible.

Phonic,

If you are travelling in a straight line and all four wheels lose traction simultaneously, where does the rotational force come from to turn the car sideways?

Ok, its a hypothetical and highly unlikely scenario, but never the less. Either way, it is unlikely that your car will suddenly spin madly unless you were in a hard turn at the time.

As for you, widow, I wasn't talking about breaking.

And yeah, I live in Darwin.. lots of desert, hey?

As for you, widow, I wasn't talking about breaking.



It was just an example to try to get your to understand but since that is to hard ill just give up with you

[quote:3f7afc4358="cthulhu"]
As for you, widow, I wasn't talking about breaking.



It was just an example to try to get your to understand but since that is to hard ill just give up with you[/quote:3f7afc4358]

It was a fantastic example, it was just irrelevant. What's with the personal attacks?

[quote:5069ee2a65="Widowmaker"][quote:5069ee2a65="cthulhu"]
As for you, widow, I wasn't talking about breaking.



It was just an example to try to get your to understand but since that is to hard ill just give up with you[/quote:5069ee2a65]

It was a fantastic example, it was just irrelevant. What's with the personal attacks?[/quote:5069ee2a65]

So it was a good example but it wasnt ? ok

personal attacks ? what are you on about i thought we where having a discussion ... oh well

The idea of EBD has been around for yonks!!!

My first car (1969 FIAT 124 AC Coupe) had mechanical setup on the rear axle which achieved a similar thing...

I don't think many "common" cars used it bacl then though.

yeah, hiluxs have had a mechanical brake distribution thing on them for ages as well!! and its a hilux!!!

Well it was a good example for braking but not relevant for aqua planing. The fundamental difference being that in a braking example you are obviously attempting to slow the car down, so the parts that aren't being slowed down as fast as other parts (back vs front, as you said) have a tendancy to want to keep going, and if there is any slight rotational or sideways movement at the time (which can be brought on by even a difference in left vs right weight distribution or friction with the road, etc) then the car will try and spin, just as you explained.

But in an aqua plane you are getting a complete loss of traction which means the part of the car over the tyre(s) that loses cohesion will continue to travel in the same direction at the same speed that it had at the time it lost traction, so there are a lot of factors that can determine whether the car will tend sideways or not, but it certainly won't necessarily tend to rotate or spin unless you provide some input into the car. If you acellerate, brake or steer while aqua planing and either a driven wheel or a steering wheel still has traction then really bad things can happen.

I'm not trying to tell you how to suck eggs, just expanding on how your high speed breaking scenario isn't a direct parallel to an aqua plane loss of control situation.

And when you start making snide comments about a person's lack of ability to grasp something, as in

[quote:974e43b997]It was just an example to try to get your to understand but since that is too hard ill just give up with you[/quote:974e43b997]

you are insulting their inteligence and therefore making a personal attack, whether you think so or not.

man you hurt my feeling's why are you attacking me personally ?

waa waa waa

man you hurt my feeling's why are you attacking me personally ?

waa waa waa

Whats with the arrogance Widow?

Seems all your posts of late are laced with spite... Maybe you should step back and realise your opinion isnt the only one, nor is it absolute and right all the time.

:roll:

Whats with the arrogance Widow?

He has always been arrogant - but thats why he is so good!! haha

However - let me try and explain why the rotational forces come into affect when all four wheels are skidding.

You will spin as because when you are skidding there is still effects of friction on the ground - the only way to over come this is to be flying!! Now - not all of your tyres will have the same frictional value and depending on which tyre is slightly more grippy - then the car will start to spin.

And no - skidding in the dry is not the fastest way to stop.

As for the perfect braking system - a main part of why this can't happen is due to different road serfaces and different tyres have different traction abilities which make the brakes ni impossible to design - so the next best thing is ABS.

Manual

the only way to over come this is to be flying!!

or aqua planing, which is what I'm talking about. Yes, when you skid there is friction, when you aqua plane you glide.

the only way to over come this is to be flying!!

or aqua planing.

Well to a degree yes - though fluid still has a frictional value - as low as it is becaue the molecules flow over each other with such ease due to low comapcted - so there may still be a slight traction rotation.

Hwoever in the instance of Aquaplaning then the weight distribution left to right of the vehicle travelling at speed will influence the rotation as one side will slow quicker than the other - the heavier side will have the greater inertia pushing it into the spin.

(Dam my physics teacher would be impressed I actually learnt something in Yr 11 and 12!! haha)

Manual

Yeah, I know what you're saying, and I appreciate that you can't elimnate the friction completely. All I'm saying is that it is going to be different to what you find under heavy breaking. And if all you're talking about is the difference in weight between a driver on the right and no passenger on the left you're going to have gone through the sheet of water before that has any uncorrectable impact (again, referring to aqua plaining while travelling in a straight line).

At the end of the day I think we all understand what's going on and we're talking about the same thing.

Yep - the easiest thing to do is agree that aquaplaning is not a good move in traffic - or when coming to a corner!!!

Manual

[quote:72a4821fc5="Widowmaker"]man you hurt my feeling's why are you attacking me personally ?

waa waa waa

Whats with the arrogance Widow?

Seems all your posts of late are laced with spite... Maybe you should step back and realise your opinion isnt the only one, nor is it absolute and right all the time.

:roll:[/quote:72a4821fc5]

of corse my opinion isnt always right because im not the only one here and everyone has the right to there own opinion and i have no problem with that.

And ofcourse my opinion's are not right all the time , you cant be right all the time if all your opinion's are stupid and wrong.

[quote:e9b336f367="Bain"]Whats with the arrogance Widow?

He has always been arrogant

Manual[/quote:e9b336f367]

Manual you know me to well :badgrin:

[quote:a2e7df83b2="Manual"][quote:a2e7df83b2="Bain"]Whats with the arrogance Widow?

He has always been arrogant

Manual[/quote:a2e7df83b2]

Manual you know me to well :badgrin:[/quote:a2e7df83b2]

Mate - we have been here since the beginning - I know you well enough!!

Haha

Manual

And aqua-planing doesn't only occur under brakes. Aqua-planing is evil. It scared the crap out of me when I had it hapen to me about 5 times in a row. Four times on straight road and once on a round about. Made me buy new tyres two days later. There's only three ways I know if to minimise aqua-planing. Only drive on dry roads, don't drive fast enough for it to occur and increase the pressurei n your tyres. As for skidding, the only way I know to avoid is not to lock the brakes :lol:

[quote:a932e0e117]
Forgive me while i have a little laugh.
EBD , electronic brake force distribution. now tell me for a start how this can be done mechanicly and in 1969?


It used a pivoting arm on the rear axle which was basically a valve that restricted the amount of brake fluid flowing out of it to the rear brake calipers.

EBD is primarily intended to allow the most of the braking force to go to the wheels which have most of traction so the whole braking system can work more effectively. It works independently of ABS.[/quote:a932e0e117]

It's called a Load Senseing Proportioning Valve. The valve is controlled by a lever which is usually attached to the diif, the more weight on the rear the more the rear suspension compresses inturn moving the lever which controls a valve allowing more pressure to be applied to the rear brakes. It prevents the rear wheels locking up when there is very little load on the rear and has been used for years on nearly all utes and commercial vehicles(and some passenger vehicles) :D

[quote:29df40c4f3]
It's called a Load Senseing Proportioning Valve. The valve is controlled by a lever which is usually attached to the diif, the more weight on the rear the more the rear suspension compresses inturn moving the lever which controls a valve allowing more pressure to be applied to the rear brakes. It prevents the rear wheels locking up when there is very little load on the rear and has been used for years on nearly all utes and commercial vehicles(and some passenger vehicles)
[/quote:29df40c4f3]

Yep, that's them! They're based on the weight over the rear wheels!.

On the FIAT (and I believe some other cars have used it as well), it's called a Braking Regulator. It was based on the idea of weight transfer that occurs during braking (which is the same idea of how EBD came about). During normal braking, the rear brakes get full pressure to them, but as the front of the car dives and the rear raises up slightly (causing less load on the rear wheels) a pivoting arm moves a valve so it restricts the amount of further braking pressure going to the rear brakes.