wat does everyone think about it? injecting a fine mist of water to cool internal temps? does it work and has anyone used it or had experiences with it? if i do go back to the mods i had on my car im thinking of trying to cool things down abit. if not water injection, wat else could i use?

thanks in advance,
brendan

wat else could i use?
NOS



ill give you a hand designing a system brendan, just bring my gawd dam screwdrivers back

:rant:

is it a turbo?? ive only ever heard of water injection being used on a turbo engine, and in which case an intercooler is a much better way to go..

if its not a turbo then i wouldnt even think about it and just sort out a good cold air intake system.. rout air from under the car or from the front of the car or something

this has little if no relivence to the thread but thout it interesting ne ho. i saw a dyno run, for a skyline, where they ran the intercooler piping throug a bucket of ice! i thought i was a good idea.

hey, yes i initaly had water injection to my carb helped a fair bit nice crisp throttle response. used old windscreen washer bottle, 2 pumps in series, and a brass 0.5mm (or was it 0.05mm) - cant rember nozzel. the mist has to be VERY fine, i initaly had it too close to the throttle opening and it was suckin droplets due to high vacuum, (as u have seen my new intake for the carb) it sits about 4" away from the opening.

i have 1 switch to arm the system and another push switch which turns on the pumps under WOT. after thrashing the car with and without it on engine temp is noticably cooler when you pop the hood. ive used fair diff mixtures but find methanol + disitiled water 50/50 gives best results.

then the mind wanders wat to inject next :badgrin: so i tried nitromethanol works well :D (expensive tho!!). nitromehtanol is not like nitrous oxide as, nitrous oxide is an oxidiser and needs to be mixed with a fuel before being injected. nitromehtanol is already mixed and no crazy high preasure lines. bit of common sense mounting it all as it is flamable.


is it worthwhile? id say yes. 1lt 50/50 water+methanol lasts me about 2weeks (thats thrashing it).

sounds like a wikid idea! now i'm gonna try stuff...

y not put an intercooler on ya car

there will be a fair bit of lag i reakon

have yur pod then yur intercooler then into your throttle body

:gtfo: meh


:P

more i do it on his car, the better my setup will be :cool:

:gtfo: Turbo_charade
u dont know wat yur missing

Water injection will not give you extra power, it will actually allow you to make more power - but on its own will reduce the power of an engine by taking up space that could be used by oxygen.

It does, however, allow you to run higher compression levels, more advanced ignition timings or run higher boost (in theory the same as increasing compression) by absorbing energy through evaporation - it isn't a fuel, and it isn't burnt - but it does reduce your chances of pinging (predetonation).

A mixture of nitromethanol/water would be useful where you have an underfuelling problem, but the ultimate :) method of fixing underfuelling and overheating of the charge air is liquid butane injection - had this on my old turbo Saab - detected when the fuel injectors got close to 100% duty cycle and started to spray liquid butane into the intake manifold - you had to do this when the car was warm, otherwise you could risk freezing up the manifold!

One other very nice side-effect of water injection is the cleaning of the intake chamber - when I had to pull off the head of the Saab (darn head gasket warps at 20psi boost - ended up with custom copper HG instead) is that it removes all of the carbon deposits from the head/valves etc - which can also help reduce pinging on older engines.

The two water-pump idea works very well, but you do need a solenoid to have a sharp cutoff as the pressure in the hoses (if they are long) means that you end up spraying water when you don't want to :P

Cheers
Heath Young

y not put an intercooler on ya car

there will be a fair bit of lag i reakon

have yur pod then yur intercooler then into your throttle body
Heh heh... funny guy. :bowrofl:


this has little if no relivence to the thread but thout it interesting ne ho. i saw a dyno run, for a skyline, where they ran the intercooler piping throug a bucket of ice! i thought i was a good idea.
That's cheating. It's like someone spraying NOS over the intercooler while on a dyno, which I've seen in comps. Neither of those can be done while on the road. I've also heard of people driving with dry ice in their airboxes.

Water injection can also be used on supercharged cars.

some of this is actually some really good ideas. A chemical system could be rigged up on the air intake which draws the heat out of the air. Maybe using something like a pressurised container full of acetone which creates a fine mist into the air before the air gets filteres would lower the air temp significantly.

These concepts are gold, some of which i've never ever thought about...

I especially like the dry ice in the airbox idea, thats actually quite clever. Would be sweet for drag days.

That's cheating. It's like someone spraying NOS over the intercooler while on a dyno, which I've seen in comps. Neither of those can be done while on the road
.

They have kits in the US that are designed to spray N20 or C02 on the Intercooler. These can be used at any time. Whether on the Track, on the Dyno, on the Road, on the Race Coarse, Anywhere. It makes no difference. As for leagality in Aus I don't know. However we all break laws on a daily basis so why start worrying now. :cool:


Water injection will not give you extra power, it will actually allow you to make more power - but on its own will reduce the power of an engine by taking up space that could be used by oxygen.

It does, however, allow you to run higher compression levels, more advanced ignition timings or run higher boost (in theory the same as increasing compression) by absorbing energy through evaporation - it isn't a fuel, and it isn't burnt - but it does reduce your chances of pinging (predetonation).

One other very nice side-effect of water injection is the cleaning of the intake chamber - when I had to pull off the head of the Saab (darn head gasket warps at 20psi boost - ended up with custom copper HG instead) is that it removes all of the carbon deposits from the head/valves etc - which can also help reduce pinging on older engines.


Cheers
Heath Young


I completely agree, I have researched Water injection and all it's benefits and side effects. You are dead on with your facts. :cool: Saved me from typing all that out.

As for everyone getting all giddy about this, don't go slaping a Water injection kit on your car and expecting it to make more power. It can't make power on it's own in an N/A car. You need to do something like Heath mentioned, such as Increased Timing or Higher compression. The Water Injection will then supress knock that could be associated with doing the above mentioned mods and allow them to create maximum gain in power.

yup spot on. i havent tried butane yet, but with water injection it allows me to advance the timming further. intercooler in a NA car? no chance way to much lag. water injection was used back in the day before intercoolers were around.

With the N2o/Co2 spray kits for intercoolers, any non flamable gas (flammable gas will also cool...untill it ignites lol ) will work. As gas cools as it's being uncompressed. :P

phonic when gas is cooled it actualy gets more dense, much like samuria




water injection will keep your internals clean, allow you to run more compression and ignition timming aswell as cooling the engine as the heat is absorbed by the water in the combustion chamber, heat is actualy the main reaction in a internal combustion engine, the pressure expantion is a side effect (which is why they are so inefficent)

I've also heard of people driving with dry ice in their airboxes.


Since dry ice is solid CO2, wouldn't this actually starve your engine of oxygen? As the dry ice melts and turns into gas it takes up the room of he oxygen you're wanting in the engine.

I've seen a custom 'ice-cage' on a mk3 supra. the cage sits above the intercooler with ice in it, and as it melts, it drops cold WATER onto the intercooler, so air passes through colder blah blah blah you get the picture.

I've also heard of people driving with dry ice in their airboxes.

Well that's rather stupid.
Dry Ice = CO2 if i recall correctly. That's like gaining nothing, since as the dry ice "melts" it releases more CO2 instead of O2 into the equation.

its called "sublimes", turns from solid into gas. and yes the colder air advantage would most likely be outweighed by the fact that more CO2 than O2 is going into the engine. Hence why i stated using a liquid acetone or the such would most likely be better. As the air flows over the liquid or thru the liquid mist it evaporates the acetone which cools the air down. Not to mention acetone is a combustable and fairly volatile. The only worry about it would be if its carried into the engine what will its combuistion do to the engine? maybe a light hydrocarbon like butane or pentane may be used but they would have the disadvantage of not being as volatile and hence not cooling the air down as significantly.

well i was initially thinking of the water injection because i am going to skim the head again, and skim some more off so it has even higher compression. i know this will make it run alittle warmer and so water injection could b a good remedy for this. wat about even rigging up a button/switch and weneva u are thrashing it, u flick the switch and it will start spraying water in at intervals etc. or is that too complex?

my cam is going back in 2morrow, and my gear selector cable (was beginning to fray lol) is being replaced. cant wait. i will worry about the water injection wen it comes time to skim the head but keep the comments/advice coming. its good to get the info

brendan

not a good idea to have it spraying randomly as i found out. you WILL stall the engine, depending on rpm and throttle butterfly position etc. best time for it to be "on" is under wide open throttle, i get mine to inject just a tad before wide open throttle. riged up a momentary on switch in the cabin on bracket to the acceleator pedal - its continous, as long as my foot is to the floor its spraying non stop. i still havent added a LED to light up to show when its "ON" as a visual indicator but will do that one day too lazy. also have a on/off switch to override the whole system.

you can run the whole system in your existing windscreen wiper fluid tank. 50/50 meth/water does a good job cleanin the windscreen as well as for water injection, or use a sep tank from wreckers. tank is roughly 1.2lt and that lasts me nearly 2 weeks.

y not put an intercooler on ya car

there will be a fair bit of lag i reakon

have yur pod then yur intercooler then into your throttle body
Nah that doesn't work as the air going past the intercooler is the same temp as the air in the intercooler. On a turbo or compressor equipped car the air heats up quite a lot and can therefore be cooled down again from that elevated temperature by the ambient air.

Big drag cars have trumpets leading straight into the butterflies, the less restriction on inlet the better for a NA car.

As far as using other gases in the mix you could try a bottle of liquid oxygen sprayed into the inlet but there must be a reason why performance cars use NO2 and not anything else. Safety, reliability and power are what you want, blowing the head off your engine or worse your body is a bad idea.

There is a printed circuit board available that controls a water pump arrangment for spraying onto intercoolers. It uses air temp before the intercooler air after and the duty of the engine (based off of the trottle position) to measure out the amount of water to use. That could be modified for inlet spraying.

Lots of testing required for best result.

phonic when gas is cooled it actualy gets more dense, much like samuria


Thats got nuthing to do with what I was saying lol

When compressed gas is released it cools as it uncompresses, good for cooling your intercooler.

Ever felt the gas bottle of your BBQ while the burners are on full :P, or sprayed deoderant on on somthing from close and noticed it freezing???

What are the benefits here for a turbocharged vehicle? What would i need to install one, and how would i go about installing one. :confused:

water injection was used back in the day before intercoolers. you can get away without using an intercooler and water injection alone but id be paranoid relying on it in case id run out of water or something fails.

best to stick to an intercooler for a turbo.

Exactly - the other problem with water injection over the long term is that if it is before the turbocharger (as a mate of mine had it on an exa turbo) is that if you spray a stream of water onto the blades (intake impellor) of the turbocharger, it does atomise *very* well, but it cuts slots into the impellor! I have a photo of this somewhere...

Cheers
Heath Young