Greetings audio fans....

I have purchased, over the Christmas break, a pair of JBL GT4-12's for $300. I was thinking that was a good price, Strathfield Car Radios had 'em on special. They are 250W RMS and 1000W Peak (so the RMS figure might be very conservative!!). It was those or Sony 12" Pentagonal subs (350W RMS, 1000W Peak) for $10/sub less. On the advice of the guys there, I took the JBL's. I have had good experiences with their PA speakers, always the highest quality and could never kill them.

Off topic: they also had JBL Spilts for $229 - I had a listen to them and I was very impressed with them. Great Mid-bass excursion, shat all over most of the others they had on the board (even the Pioneers). Check them out, for only $30 more than the Re/Sponse kevlar splits, mega great value! I'm buying 2 sets for my front doors once I have the subs done (custom door pods here I come).

I currently have a basic Sony Black Polypropolene sub (Dunno model number, I think it's 250W RMS - it's the black one in the Xplod catalog) that's a bit floppy in a 30L sealed box, powered by 2 bridged channels of a Sony 444 Amp. I am running Alpine Head units (yes, UNITS!)

I need a suggestion for a Box for these subs. I am thinking getting a box made specifically, with a bit of a glass or acrylic cut out, and neon or CCFL tubes inside. My idea is to have it made to the shape of the boot, but making it a bandpass box (sealed box behind the sub, with it firing into a ported box on the front side) with the port(s) firing into the cabin via the ski port. The size isn't important, I am keeping the Sony 12" and box for long trips or when space is required.

I have a good Audio workshop who I rely on for building boxes, they take care of everything, I just tell 'em what I want. I like clean, punchy bass (I'm a DJ with a penchant for thumping Trance, Hard House etc).

Any suggestions for my new babies will be appreciated. Also some suggestions for Amps would be great, I am thinking about one of those Alpine Monoblocks pushing 900/1000W.

The figures for the subs will be fairly accurate... but you can ignore any peak output figure it is irrelevent.
Given that 900-1000 w rms will provide you with heaps of power and heaps of headroom I'd look into that monoblock if the budget will allow it, but it will probably be overkill for the subs, (it is twice as much power as the subs are rated) Money would be better spent on deadening and better front splits. Are the JBL subs single voice coil? If so make sure the monoblock is stable at 2 ohm (it should be)


if you're after clean punchy bass, go a fully sealed box over a bandpass. They are more predictable and seeing that you will have plenty of power on tap, you won't really be after the loudest possibly configuration from your subs, but instead be after good quality sound.
Check the dimensions for a specific sub box that should come with your sub then work from there.

As for front splits, look around and listen to some other brands besides what is at jb or strathfield etc. Listen to some dynaudio splits, morel, diamond, hertz etc

I think you'd be better off spending money on decent front splits than wasting power on a huge monoblock. a 500 w rms monoblock may be more suffice for your subs seeing you can pick one up second hand for around $300. Also you will need an amp for your front splits, are you going to keep the Sony for that?

Peace

Tim

The figures for the subs will be fairly accurate... but you can ignore any peak output figure it is irrelevent.
True, but usually companies like Alpine, JBL etc 'underquote' their power figures. Other not-so-reputable companies quote exact figures - even 'overquoting' to make their product seem like it is better than it is. We all know that a Alpine Sub rated at 500W will take 650-700W without hurting (as long as input isn't clipping).


Given that 900-1000 w rms will provide you with heaps of power and heaps of headroom I'd look into that monoblock if the budget will allow it, but it will probably be overkill for the subs, (it is twice as much power as the subs are rated) Money would be better spent on deadening and better front splits. Are the JBL subs single voice coil? If so make sure the monoblock is stable at 2 ohm (it should be)Yes, they are single voice coil. All Alpine monoblocks are 2-ohm stable. These subs won't be in forever. They will probably end up in the missus's car eventually. I really want R-Type Alpine Subs, or maybe X-Type at some later stage *drool*


if you're after clean punchy bass, go a fully sealed box over a bandpass. They are more predictable and seeing that you will have plenty of power on tap, you won't really be after the loudest possibly configuration from your subs, but instead be after good quality sound. Check the dimensions for a specific sub box that should come with your sub then work from there.I leave dimesnsions and volume to my Audio place. That's what they are for. I've heard some bandpass boxes that sound awesome, although 'narrow' in their bass. I'm just after opinions at the moment.


As for front splits, look around and listen to some other brands besides what is at jb or strathfield etc. Listen to some dynaudio splits, morel, diamond, hertz etcI have listened to Hertz, MB Quart etc. I am just saying the bang for the buck on the JBL splits was incredible. Very little money for alot of quality sound.


I think you'd be better off spending money on decent front splits than wasting power on a huge monoblock. a 500 w rms monoblock may be more suffice for your subs seeing you can pick one up second hand for around $300. Also you will need an amp for your front splits, are you going to keep the Sony for that?I have a Sony 222 thats running my current front stage (pioneer 6.5" coaxials). The other two channels of the 444 do my 6x9's (Pioneer 3-ways). The 222 will go to the 6x9's, and the 444 into the front, ready for two sets of those JBL splits. *salivating*

Just thinking I will need a capacitor for the monoblock I suppose.......

Looks like u found some subs!

Anyway, bandpass boxes are just plaing hard and annoying to build....I'm a self confessed bass junkie, but i do occasionally enjoy sound quality. Go ported, and have differently tuned ports u can change ;)

Or sealed...something small :doubt:

A cap? are you joking? it would sit there and look good, and explode if you don't wire it up correctly, but you shouldn't need one....unless it had a voltage display and looked really cool

Yeah caps are a waste of money and will result in little if not no gain. Upgrade your battery and wires if you have any problems. Optima Yellow top and 2 gauge will sort that out.
But definetly don't bother with a cap, unless you're going for show in which case you'll need a volt meter... ;)

You could also go a horn box, if you want to get really inventive, but if you want punchy controlled bass then i'd go a big sealed box, make sure it's split in the middle too... Just my o anyway

Looks like u found some subs!
Yeah. They had your MTX's in there as well.


Anyway, bandpass boxes are just plaing hard and annoying to build....I'm a self confessed bass junkie, but i do occasionally enjoy sound quality. Go ported, and have differently tuned ports u can change ;)
That's why I was going to get my Audio place to build it for me.


Or sealed...something small :doubt:
Probably...


A cap? are you joking? it would sit there and look good, and explode if you don't wire it up correctly, but you shouldn't need one....unless it had a voltage display and looked really cool
Yeah dude..... in neon! :bowrofl:

yeah, me got rid of my 2 mtx's...installing them in a mate's car in two days time. now i'm waiting for a Digital Designs 2515 to arrive:D :D postage for it is a biatch tho :doubt:

2ga cable is hard to find...either go two 4ga or single 0. or dual 0 just to look cool

I went the single 0... Stuffs pretty fat! P->H Phat

0 guage wiring is bloody massive! oi was going to run 0 guage thru my mazda but it was really over kill for wats going to be 700wrms, im thinking about running 2 4 guages tho cuz i wanna do some crazy ****. and just remember this, the bigger guage you go the more xpensive stuff is for it! especially stinger gear! an inlone fuse holder is 100 bucks at JB hifi so keep that in mind. also, capacitors are pretty much useless, mainly for wank factor i think. get a good battry and maybe get a bigger alternator, upgrade your grounds and you should be set. speaking of set, i rekon go for the 2x jbl splits in the door!! that would look *** sweet or go a mixture of things, get 8" woofer, 6.5" midbass and then a 4" for your treble... i rekon that would look and sound sick as! and go the bigger amp, you dont know down the track what you could come across so keep as bit of room for upgrades!

Yeah, I will need a cap, not just for the want, it does improve the attack of the system. Put a really basic fusion capacitor in his car, then did a comparison with an oscilliscope.... the bass hits harder with the cap, but not louder....

Or put in a optima yellow top in the boot to compliment my 13 plate Bosch 520CCA battery.

From memory i think those subs perform well in a ported box over a sealed though I am getting old. With 94db effiency I wouldnt be to worried, bandbass will give your car a one noted sound and are very hard to perfect, however they are extremely loud if tuned properly over a sealed box. Good for SPL comps though cause your tone will be whatever your box is tuned to +- 3db to allow for cabin.

0 guage wiring is bloody massive! oi was going to run 0 guage thru my mazda but it was really over kill for wats going to be 700wrms, im thinking about running 2 4 guages tho cuz i wanna do some crazy ****. and just remember this, the bigger guage you go the more xpensive stuff is for it! especially stinger gear! an inlone fuse holder is 100 bucks at JB hifi so keep that in mind. also, capacitors are pretty much useless, mainly for wank factor i think. get a good battry and maybe get a bigger alternator, upgrade your grounds and you should be set. speaking of set, i rekon go for the 2x jbl splits in the door!! that would look *** sweet or go a mixture of things, get 8" woofer, 6.5" midbass and then a 4" for your treble... i rekon that would look and sound sick as! and go the bigger amp, you dont know down the track what you could come across so keep as bit of room for upgrades!

0 guage will be put in to a battery and/or capacitor in the boot. Separately fused distro block to the amps, and why buy a set of pioneer splits at $469 when you can get those JBL splits and BLOODY HELL THEY THUMP!

They don't make a 3pce split system though. I do like the look of those Alpine X-Type splits ($599) and the optional midbass driver and Xover ($599 also). I can but 2 sets o the JBL's for the price of 1 set of X-Types!

I love Alpine, but not that bloody much!

From memory i think those subs perform well in a ported box over a sealed though I am getting old.

These must be an improved model, as looking at the response curves last night, 1cu.ft. sealed is recommended, but there is a 30Hz ported version that is pretty close to the sealed as well.


With 94db effiency I wouldnt be to worried, bandbass will give your car a one noted sound and are very hard to perfect, however they are extremely loud if tuned properly over a sealed box. Good for SPL comps though cause your tone will be whatever your box is tuned to +- 3db to allow for cabin.

I got in a car with a bandpass box, i nearly lost my lunch and s**t my pants. Awesome volume in it. Bass was very 1 dimensional during music however. Like I said earlier, just looking for ideas, suggestions and opinions.

Put a really basic fusion capacitor in his car, then did a comparison with an oscilliscope.... the bass hits harder with the cap, but not louder....

Harder but not louder??? I'm confused. To test it's effectiveness you'd need to measure voltage vs time at the amp terminals. Modern amps will behave fairly similarly between 12 and 14 volts, below 12 volts your cap won't be of much help anyway.
Upgrading your altenator so it outputs more current at the same revs would be much more effective.
IMO the only reason you'd want a cap is to deal with dimming lights on bass hits even then it is not fixing the problem (altenator upgrade).

But on that note, they look pretty cool, May as well polish up a can of tennis balls and run some wires into that, then stick on a voltage display. Will be more useful as well, cos hey, you got free tennis ball storage.

Running dual batteries is probably a last resort unless you plan on making an spl car.

I say think about an altenator upgrade. But wait till you install all your stuff to see if you even need that. Just my opinion.



0 guage wiring is bloody massive! oi was going to run 0 guage thru my mazda but it was really over kill for wats going to be 700wrms, im thinking about running 2 4 guages tho cuz i wanna do some crazy ****. and just remember this, the bigger guage you go the more xpensive stuff is for it! especially stinger gear! an inlone fuse holder is 100 bucks at JB hifi so keep that in mind. also, capacitors are pretty much useless, mainly for wank factor i think.

Yeah ur right about the 0 gauge distro's and fuse holders. I got a huge ANL fuse holder, and a stinger 0 gauge distro block. I got them cheap though so no loss. I fit 0 gauge in pretty easily though, as easy as 4 gauge would have been. There was plenty of room through the grommets.

peace

Harder but not louder??? I'm confused. To test it's effectiveness you'd need to measure voltage vs time at the amp terminals.
An occiliscope measures the waveform on the output side. We sampled it into the computer and did a graphical check. The waveform attacks (I dunno if you know what I mean) to the peak of the hit alot cleaner.
This is because Caps can discharge their power quicker than batteries. This is why you have caps inside your amps when it needs extra juice for the big hits, not batteries. They do not produce extra voltage, which in turn would give you a higher amplification at the output end.


Modern amps will behave fairly similarly between 12 and 14 volts, below 12 volts your cap won't be of much help anyway.
It's not voltage I'm worried about, it's current.


Upgrading your altenator so it outputs more current at the same revs would be much more effective. IMO the only reason you'd want a cap is to deal with dimming lights on bass hits even then it is not fixing the problem (altenator upgrade).
I have already got plans for that as well.


But on that note, they look pretty cool, May as well polish up a can of tennis balls and run some wires into that, then stick on a voltage display. Will be more useful as well, cos hey, you got free tennis ball storage.
I don't play tennis. :bowrofl:


Running dual batteries is probably a last resort unless you plan on making an spl car.
If you have driven with a battery on the way out, or a system with low voltage, you know that performance drops off a bit, and fuel economy goes bad. I'd rather dump a battery in a box (say $400) than have a car that dies having the audio going for 1 miinute after the engine is off, and is hard to start, bad economy, low performance.... $400 isn't that much in the scheme of things when I am talking about $1200 amps...I have a problem about doing things properly

IMHO you should wait and see if you'll actually need any upgrade, if so focus on a new battery. Then an altenator upgrade before anything else if you already have proper wiring in place.

How many amps do you plan on drawing from your setup?

I don't mind if you want to do things properly, I'm the same, just concerned about how much this will cost you, and if the money could be better spent on better fronts or better subs. Even on comp cars many still run on one battery and draw ten times the amount of current that I imagine yours will (Are you looking to upgrade afterwards?)

If you're worried about recieving a nice clean signal then surely a bigger determinant of the signal that will eventually hit your ears will be your speakers primarily. Then your amps and source.
Seeing that amps themselves are designed to go into cars without caps. (as you said they already have the technology/capacitors inside them to handle their output)

From the small amount in this thread and the gear you are looking at, IMO you aren't budgetting that much for your speakers, subs and amps in comparison to how much you are budgetting for your power which is already there. Now whether or not a cap is effective, (which is a very hot topic) is irrelevant. If you need a oscilloscope to say it sounds better and can't actually hear it with your ears then is the benefit really worth the money you are going to spend and wouldn't it be better off going into some better front speakers, or some better subs which you will definetly notice?

Not flaming, just trying to help, you said you were after opinions anyway ;)

But yeah I'd definetly like to know how many amps you plan on pulling. Or if you're going for a show car etc.

Peace :cool:

Tim

IMHO you should wait and see if you'll actually need any upgrade, if so focus on a new battery. Then an altenator upgrade before anything else if you already have proper wiring in place.
I think the alternator will be a must. I have already have posted a question about that and had it answered. The Battery/Cap I am expecting one or the other may be required. Just trying to work out a budget, and plan for the future.


How many amps do you plan on drawing from your setup?
After this upgrade, 3. A monoblock for the subs, either the XM444 or something else for the front, and maybe the XM22 for the 6x9's. I plan to go to a second monoblock when I go for better/bigger subs, ie Alpine X-Type 12" DVC's (these take 1000W RMS). That might be in another vehicle (magna) however.


I don't mind if you want to do things properly, I'm the same, just concerned about how much this will cost you, and if the money could be better spent on better fronts or better subs. Even on comp cars many still run on one battery and draw ten times the amount of current that I imagine yours will (Are you looking to upgrade afterwards?)
It's the juggle you play when you try to upgrade your ICE... Budget Vs Wants. I am happy to fork out $1200 for that Alpine Monoblock as I have plans for the future as well, but those may be 12 months down the track. My stepfather is slowly getting into this sort of thing as well, and I can send some of my used stuff to him, some can go in the missus's car, etc.

In fact, this car will probably get handed down to the missus, and I get a VR-X/Ralliart/4thGen.

This will not be a finished system, I'm always upgrading, changing etc. All the really good stuff (amps, Subs, headunits) can be swapped to another car. I won't bother with the splits or 6x9's. Drop in a $270 head unit for the missus and I may have an xm222 & 12" sony sub in a box and a great system for her.


If you're worried about recieving a nice clean signal then surely a bigger determinant of the signal that will eventually hit your ears will be your speakers primarily. Then your amps and source.
Seeing that amps themselves are designed to go into cars without caps. (as you said they already have the technology/capacitors inside them to handle their output)
While they have caps in them, and Switchmode power supplies are great, you can start sucking more power than is available (especially monoblocks, and inadequate wiring really hurts you in this situation). I find wiring is really one of the biggest issues, I am a wiring nazi, top quality RCA leads and speaker cable, and power cable always is rated higher than it needs to be.


From the small amount in this thread and the gear you are looking at, IMO you aren't budgetting that much for your speakers, subs and amps in comparison to how much you are budgetting for your power which is already there. Now whether or not a cap is effective, (which is a very hot topic) is irrelevant. If you need a oscilloscope to say it sounds better and can't actually hear it with your ears then is the benefit really worth the money you are going to spend and wouldn't it be better off going into some better front speakers, or some better subs which you will definetly notice?
I find the speakers are the cheapest part of the system, getting a decent amp (and possibly a second one in the future) is something I can use right now. I can buy the amp and get instant gratification. Once I need another fix, I go buy the bigger/better subs. Sure, 2 pairs of splits & custom door pods costs equal to a single pair of top shelf splits, but I have a base to put the high end splits (as I already have the pods) when the $$$ allow.

In short, rather than spending (figure from the air only) $5K on a balanced, all round system, I'm trying to buy some bigger items (amps) and get wiring in, pods, and sacrifice for smaller, cheaper speakers, which I can put to good use later anyway, and drop in better speakers as dollars allow.

We will stop talking about the "Capacitors: Are they beneficial?" topic now. We Agree to disagree. Maybe we should go on Jerry Springer for that one....:js:


Not flaming, just trying to help, you said you were after opinions anyway ;)
Not a flame, you didn't call me any names :)
Intense discussion only. I love this S**t!


But yeah I'd definetly like to know how many amps you plan on pulling. Or if you're going for a show car etc.
I would like to take the car to Salon one day. There's some bodywork & painting before that. I am looking at 2x 1000W RMS monoblocks, plus the 2 amps for front stage & rear fill.

Yeah the wiring bug hit me too... Still gotta go down the Stinger path for the rest of my boot.
I'm after one of the oldschool alpine V12 monoblocks so about the 1000w rms mark too. But they're hard to find. I'm pretty sure I know what I want and I've got time, so just a waiting game now.

Finally busted one of my older subs! Just a tinsel lead though. Eh well *grabs soldering iron.

:cool:

i recently purchased a phoenix gold qx900.1d monoblock. 900wrms @ 2ohm,12V and apparently around 1.2kw at 14V :D ....so it means I should get around 1.1kw.....mmm...~1kw in a 15" DD2515 sub, 3 cu ft ported box....BASSSSSSSS :badgrin:

EDIT:

I think ccaps are useless. they would be a band-aid solution to dimming headlights, but definately not worth purchasing. Its better to spend money on better wiring and alternator/battery then spending 200 dollars on a band-aid solution. but it is your car, so yeah...its really up to you.

Oh, a cap is worth getting only if it has a digital display and looks good :D

:coffee: As i said I am getting old. I think though that a ported box will give you all the volume you need without the loss of SQ from a bandbass.

Future upgrades should include a RE XXX or IDMAX or DD35XX over an alpine type -X. Sorry had to say it.

Future upgrades should include a RE XXX or IDMAX or DD35XX over an alpine type -X. Sorry had to say it.
Yeah I agree, not the biggest fan of Alpine subs/speakers. Love their source units and processors, love their old amps too.

Throw a Brahma in that list too :) I want one!!!

:coffee: As i said I am getting old. I think though that a ported box will give you all the volume you need without the loss of SQ from a bandbass.
Future upgrades should include a RE XXX or IDMAX or DD35XX over an alpine type -X. Sorry had to say it.

I usualy prefer sealed over ported. I might get the boys where I get the boxes made to drop the subs into their sealed demo box, put it in the car and listen, then drop them into their special ported box that they can muck around with and try different port sizes and lengths.

Have a good listen and see anyway. Probably the only way to find out.

I won't get into the great speaker brand debate either, apart to say since I am heading for virtually a full alpine system, I think. Those decisions are to be made later on, once this is all done and money saved for it.