I hear alot about magna owners thinking of putting ralliart cams in their motor, but what are they and what is the benefit? what cost would it be for how much power gain?
thanks guys.

400-500 without installation i think

they give u more lift (i think?) prolly worth 7-10kw i think


this is all just off the top of my head

According to the autospeed article, they are worth 10Kw - pretty reasonable, but apparently, you could have some minor issues with valve bouncing if you use the standard valve springs - due to the higher lift - the ralliarts use stronger valve springs than the sports/veradas/execs.

I would love to fit the whole ralliart head (complete with the improved ralliart headwork, cams and valve springs) but that would be rather expensive :(

Cheers
Heath Young

I E-mailed Crockenberg Motors (http://www.crockenbergmotors.com.au/ralliart.html) in WA about cams. Here's what they said.

"Sorry we have no performance parts for Magna
Yes, Mitsubishi will not sell Ralliart Magna parts
to non Ralliart Magna onwers.
Regards
Malcolm Crockenberg"

Bugger. :rant:

I E-mailed Crockenberg Motors (http://www.crockenbergmotors.com.au/ralliart.html) in WA about cams. Here's what they said.

"Sorry we have no performance parts for Magna
Yes, Mitsubishi will not sell Ralliart Magna parts
to non Ralliart Magna onwers.
Regards
Malcolm Crockenberg"

Bugger. :rant:

bugger hey!
thanks so much for the info.

Where there's a will there's a way, just have to get a bit crafty. Price is around $550-$600 for the pair me thinks.

/me can get Ralliart Cams :D :D

group buy for us then!

Exactly :)

Group buy instead of gloating :P

Or *ahem* one set to a cam grinders for... err... a backup set or two to be made.

Cheers
Heath Young

Or *ahem* one set to a cam grinders for... err... a backup set or two
Yeah, just incase they wear out.

OK. Rang the local dealer again, who quoted me $256 ea. a couple of weeks ago.

They appear on his system, and he swears that he can get them. 20 LH shafts and 24 RH shafts in stock in Adelaide. Reckons he's never heard of the Ralliart owners only policy. :nuts:

He wouldn't ring to find out if they'll send them, he reckons just order and they'll be here in 3 days. So WTF? :confused:

Anyone have an idea what else would be needed besides just dropping the cams in?
I'm thinking ported heads, valve springs, high compression gaskets, ECU flash ( or Greddy).

springs

mayb cam gears,

As far as I know, you dont 'have' to do anything.
The valve bounce is aparently not an issue although ralliart cars have stiffer valve springs which is better but not required.
Head porting polishing etc is always nice to have but does not have any real influence on the cams you use.
Cam gears also as far as I know there is no differance between the Ralliart and the standard models.
Was that $256 ea including gst?

Why would you need to port the head and do all the fancy headwork for a set of mild grind cams? Surely a flowed t/b extractors, and a straight through muffler would be sufficient?

There is no real need, but it would help to utilise the extended opening of the cams more than the standard heads. You would get some more gains over just the cams, but only if it is done properly...

Decking the block or skimming the head to increase compression would also give some worthwhile gains, but if you were to pull the head in the first place, may as well slap a ralliart head on it and be done with it.

Cheers
Heath Young

OK. Rang the local dealer again, who quoted me $256 ea. a couple of weeks ago.

They appear on his system, and he swears that he can get them. 20 LH shafts and 24 RH shafts in stock in Adelaide. Reckons he's never heard of the Ralliart owners only policy. :nuts:

He wouldn't ring to find out if they'll send them, he reckons just order and they'll be here in 3 days. So WTF? :confused:

Anyone have an idea what else would be needed besides just dropping the cams in?
I'm thinking ported heads, valve springs, high compression gaskets, ECU flash ( or Greddy).

Don't get the Greddy, try Haltech etc. Port the heads, oversized valves, increase the compression when you port the heads, gasket. Sounds the trip! It'll cost you $3K.

Somehow i dont think he wants to spend 3k, also you would be looking at close to 3k just to get a Haltech put in on its own so for something modified to this standard i dont think a haltech is a good 'bang for buck'.

Get a Ralliart chip from Mitsubishi.
The factory reprogrammed the ECU for the different cams, so use that. It's guaranteed to work optimally.

Get a Ralliart chip from Mitsubishi.
The factory reprogrammed the ECU for the different cams, so use that. It's guaranteed to work optimally.

Don't forget the Ralliart runs 9.4:1 engine compression, which is where it makes most of its power, not the cams alone. So the reprogrammed ECU will probably not run optimally unless you get the Ralliart pistons as well, to bump up your compression from 9:1.

I have ralliart cams in my tj sports but i am not impressed, my fuel consumption is nowhere.. I put my car on the dyno and i was not impressed. I am getting it checked soon or getting my cams back to standard. If not i am thinking of getting a motek.. anyone know if this is a good idea? Any suggestion would help!

Anything from the factory will almost always be a compromise - they obviously have to adhere to levels of driveability, fuel economy and emissions standards. Particularly in the case of cams, the average buyer is not going to be particularly happy with an unusual powerband and lumpy idle. In short, I'd have to say this = bad idea.

Why not approach one of the larger cam specialists. Back in the day, I approached a couple of companies and they were happy to do a full custom cam (provided I could source a blank) or a regrind. Are RPW still doing cam kits? In any case, there should be plenty of options, and nearly all of them will be better than the very mild ralliart design.

Despite the fact that everyone wants to save a buck, this is certainly not an area where you want to skimp - cam modfications are going to be best served with springs, custom gears, and so on. Anything other than a very mild setup is almost certainly going to find the standard exhaust system (inc manifold) a restriction. Finally, you certainly won't make the most of the gains with a factory ecu map - in fact, the results could quite likely be negative.

I agree with that, ralliart cam is not even equivalent to a stage 1 grind. and the headwork is also mild. if your going to the bother of cams or headwork as well go for more lift, more porting and bigger valves. Theres a lot of labour anyway, so unless u r getting the cams done along with a timing belt change its not a cheap job anyway.
Also with multi valve engines the amount of lift is never a lot compared with old 2 valve engines. the standard valvesprings would definitely cope fine with a10% increase in lift. Ralliart built the magna to full ralliart racing standards, thats capable of running at around redline for 48 hrs straight so put better springs in, none of us would do that with our cars.

on the other hand my datsun has big cam big valves and big valvesprings and it has to idle lumpy and fast, not nice sitting at the lights for long time, so u really have to find a balance for what u want.

Hmm.... It's all too hard.

Might leave the engine alone and stick with bolt on mods...... :shifty:

*sneaks back and opens RPW Webpage*

I have ralliart cams in my tj sports but i am not impressed, my fuel consumption is nowhere.. I put my car on the dyno and i was not impressed. I am getting it checked soon or getting my cams back to standard. If not i am thinking of getting a motek.. anyone know if this is a good idea? Any suggestion would help!

I'm not surprised. I doubt just putting in Ralliart Cams will do anything unless you have the ECU make the most of it. As others have mentioned the Ralliart not only has the higher lift cams it has :

Stronger Valve Springs
Mild Head Work
Higher Compression Pistons (9.4.1)
Extractors
ECU Tweaking

And it seems a lot of additional work just to gain an extra 17Kw from that of a VRX. But don't forget it is tuned at the factory for 91RON fuel. Tuning it for 98RON should yeild around another 8Kw or so but each car is different.

Oh - A little birdie at Mitsubishi Tonsley Park (engineer) told me not to waste money on exhaust modifications on Sports, VR, VRX and RALLIART (apart from extractors) as the main problem is with the intake of the motor, not the exhaust. Apparantly tests were done with a straight through free-flow exhaust and the gains were not worth mentioning on paper.

We need to work more on the intake side of things i think.

I've been told also that extractors will give only minimal gains as the stock manifold setup works pretty well although I'm guessing this is a comparison to the increases extractors give on older generation cars with crappy flowing cast pieces of crap manifolds.
That said, it will be done :D

Does this birdie mean intake as in induction hardware or intake as in heads, manifold, plenum and throttle body?

I think we'd need to know a lot more about the testing to make a conclusive statement. I'd be very surprised if a worthwhile gain wasn't made by upgrading to a more free flowing exhaust (at least in terms of $ per hp - mufflers being at the cheap end of the modification world).

kodos: that only holds true when you are talking in terms of standard air/fuel levels. As a stand-alone bolt-on, extractors won't revolutionise the 'seat of your pants'

Oh - A little birdie at Mitsubishi Tonsley Park (engineer) told me not to waste money on exhaust modifications on Sports, VR, VRX and RALLIART (apart from extractors) as the main problem is with the intake of the motor, not the exhaust. Apparantly tests were done with a straight through free-flow exhaust and the gains were not worth mentioning on paper.

We need to work more on the intake side of things i think.

Interesting you should say that. I know of another little birdie who is a member of these forums who found some nice gains from fitting RPW's old 3" system, inc cat converter, to his car, which admittedly already had race extractors, 'high-flow' T/B, greddy, etc.. but I don't think he has any head work or anything more fancy than a pod filter on the intake side.

There are gains to be had, but I agree you won't see much from throwing a big bore exhaust at a near stock motor.

Does this birdie mean intake as in induction hardware or intake as in heads, manifold, plenum and throttle body?

I am not sure on this one but i'm looking into it. I also remember an article was published on the Internet somewhere containing an Interview with a Head Engineer from Mitusbishi/Ralliart who also mentioned they tried a straight through exhaust which made very little difference to the Sports/VRX and Ralliart.

The article is here (http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1437/article.html).

The relevant section as follows...


A lot can be learnt from the Mitsubishi's new Ralliart Magna. Having spoken to Rod Campbell about its development, it's obvious this is the car anyone into hot Magnas should be taking notes from...

<snip>

Interestingly, Rod says there's not much more to be picked up from further mods to the exhaust. "At one stage we tried a straight length of pipe with no mufflers and it made no more extra power." Exhaust backpressure in the Ralliart Magna is said to be less than 400mm of mercury (53 kPa).

Edit: It doesn't say what diameter pipe they used though, which might be important.

Interesting you should say that. I know of another little birdie who is a member of these forums who found some nice gains from fitting RPW's old 3" system, inc cat converter, to his car, which admittedly already had race extractors, 'high-flow' T/B, greddy, etc.. but I don't think he has any head work or anything more fancy than a pod filter on the intake side.
I think it still used the stock exhaust manifold, not RPW's headers.

I was talking about meansolara who ended up with Dave's old 3" system from the TT car.. pretty sure he's got RPW's race headers fitted too?

Edit: Oops, right you are, Redav... still had the stock headers at the time. My bad.

I'm not suprised that you'll only get minimal gain in upgrading the exhaust on a barely stock Sports/VRX or Ralliart, they already come with a 'near' straight through exhaust system (In fact rumours that the stock muffler manufactured by Lukey?). But on the other hand, theres performance to be had on the non-Sports models.

I highly doubt the 3" exhaust on a 3.5L N/A engine would do much better, maybe a bit more power on the upper curve, but I have a feeling there is a loss of torque, or at least a less flat torque curve.

Had a look on the underbody today when i was re-tensioning my belts, looked at the way the current exhausts are extracted out from the two banks and merged together into the single pipe. I have a feeling that section could be improved.

I highly doubt the 3" exhaust on a 3.5L N/A engine would do much better, maybe a bit more power on the upper curve, but I have a feeling there is a loss of torque, or at least a less flat torque curve.

You may well doubt it, but I'd encourage you to read this thread (http://www.mogwa.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5375&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) first.

You may well doubt it, but I'd encourage you to read this thread (http://www.mogwa.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5375&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) first.


Yes my doubt was my opinion, which was based on the responses on the forum and personal experiences of my previous car, which had a 2.5" cat-back on a 2.6L engine, and it did no good to the torque.

Thanks for the link though, was an interesting read :thumbsup:

I would love to see the dyno after some extractors are installed.

Yes my doubt was my opinion

I'm sorry, opinions are strictly forbidden on these forums! :hand:

:cool:

I think the e-manage has a lot to do with extracting the benefits out of mods like those.

I am thinking of putting a 3.5 exhaust system on my 3.0 .
At the moment, i have a K&N panel filter and a redback muffler. Does anyone reckon that this would be a worthwile investment? :confused:

Yes my doubt was my opinion, which was based on the responses on the forum and personal experiences of my previous car, which had a 2.5" cat-back on a 2.6L engine, and it did no good to the torque.

Thanks for the link though, was an interesting read :thumbsup:

your quite right, freeing up exhaust gives more flow at higher revs, and increasing peak power at top end is hard (but not impossible as a rule), to achieve without compromising bottom end torque, as theres not enough backpressure at low revs under load.

I am thinking of putting a 3.5 exhaust system on my 3.0 .
At the moment, i have a K&N panel filter and a redback muffler. Does anyone reckon that this would be a worthwile investment? :confused:

complete waste of time...and money if your paying for the system lol

complete waste of time...and money if your paying for the system lol

Sorry for being stupid! :D But isnt the 3.5 pipe larger than the 3.0 pipe? If it is, why would it be a waste of time. I know not to go too big because of back pressure and all that kind of crap!

nah the pipes are the same, manufacturers dont go to tht much trouble to change everything for an extra 500cc, consider the piping on the 3.0L at 2.4" was bigger than that on the commo and falcon with much bigger motors. ages ago we had this discussion and some of us measured the pipes. its all 61mm or 2.4" except for the last section over the rear suspension before the main muffler thats 2". pistons are bigger on the 3.5L tho :D

nah the pipes are the same, manufacturers dont go to tht much trouble to change everything for an extra 500cc, consider the piping on the 3.0L at 2.4" was bigger than that on the commo and falcon with much bigger motors. ages ago we had this discussion and some of us measured the pipes. its all 61mm or 2.4" except for the last section over the rear suspension before the main muffler thats 2". pistons are bigger on the 3.5L tho :D
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've got a Sports muffler at home and I compared it to my stock muffler and the piping over that section is definately different. The bolt holes for the two flanges are at different spacings. Plus there's at least two members who have reported a 4' gap when they've tried to fit 3.5 piping to a 3.0.

Back onto the subject of the ralliart cams, it would appear (looking at the specs in the workshop manual between the Ralliart TJ and normal TJ, the duration, overlap, and timing are identical - the only difference (I would assume) would be the opening - the lobes are 'taller' thus opening the valves furthur - that would be it.

This would give increased flow, but there would be no other issues - not with lumpy idle, or driveability.

This was suprising actually, as I would have assumed a slightly more aggressive timing would have been used.

Bore and stroke and everything else is pretty much identical between the two engines - excluding the 0.4:1 difference in compression (Probably uses the same block, just a worked head - maybe the ralliart head has been shaved to increase compression - makes sense)

So it may be beneficial to do a head swap (reasonably involved surgery) and throw the ralliart heads on along with a highflowed intake manifold (extrude honed), preferably ported.

Wonder what a Ralliart head is worth - at least if it is new, you don't have the problems with having to do three angle valve grinds etc.

Cheers
Heath Young

redav, the opening on a sports muffler will always be bigger, u use reducers to match it to smaller piping. only sports and VRX etc models have the sports muffler anyway, but not execs, advances, solaras and veradas tho. I can imagine why a 3.5 zorst wouldnt fit nicely onto a 3.0, because the block is taller on the 3.5 the piping would not reach up to the manifolds.

heathyoung, u cant shave the heads to get more comp, or we would do it (I wanted to). being V6 the inlet ports will mismatch the inlet manifolds if we shave the heads. so u need to use high comp pistons. the ralliart has high comp hypereutectic pistons.

I was looking thru the CD and noticed that the poor old TH'S where ripped off.The Ralliart's and the TJ'S on got the same cams :redface:.So does this explain how the TJ'S got their extra power 155kw vr's 147kw.If so anyone got a set of stock TJ cams laying around :badgrin:

I was looking thru the CD and noticed that the poor old TH'S where ripped off.The Ralliart's and the TJ'S on got the same cams :redface:.So does this explain how the TJ'S got their extra power 155kw vr's 147kw.If so anyone got a set of stock TJ cams laying around :badgrin:

nah it was just an ECU tweak i think with the TJ, falcon and commodore were around 155kw with the old 3.8 and 4.0 by that time so mits had to keep up. then there was another ecu tweak on the TL awd to get the economy back as the TJ awd was too thirsty.

redav, the opening on a sports muffler will always be bigger, u use reducers to match it to smaller piping. only sports and VRX etc models have the sports muffler anyway, but not execs, advances, solaras and veradas tho. I can imagine why a 3.5 zorst wouldnt fit nicely onto a 3.0, because the block is taller on the 3.5 the piping would not reach up to the manifolds.
Possibly with the reducers. Well, I've been told the deck height is only 20mm higher between the 3.0 and 3.5 now that's a near vertical height difference so I can't see how that would affect a 4 inch difference.


I was looking thru the CD and noticed that the poor old TH'S where ripped off.The Ralliart's and the TJ'S on got the same cams :redface:.So does this explain how the TJ'S got their extra power 155kw vr's 147kw.If so anyone got a set of stock TJ cams laying around :badgrin:
Correct. As there's 147, 150, 155kW versions of the engine, there's two cam designs.

147kW - original
150kW - revised
155kW - revised with ECU updated

I've also seen 153 and 152 versions listed somewhere but not sure if that's really accurate. Hope you don't mean the Ralliart has the same cams as the rest of the TJ's.


nah it was just an ECU tweak i think with the TJ, falcon and commodore were around 155kw with the old 3.8 and 4.0 by that time so mits had to keep up. then there was another ecu tweak on the TL awd to get the economy back as the TJ awd was too thirsty.
The AWD's thirstier because it's heavier. The difference in power is due to the different exhaust setup. Torque is almost unaffected. If there was an ECU change, this probably would have been affected too. I mean, torque changed noticeabily between the various 3.5 engines.

redav, yes i was thinking the zorst would probably just sit a little low, like extractors designed for the 3.5 do when put on a 3.0, if u tried a 3.5 pipe onto a 3.0 engine. so where does this 4" gap end up at? Im thinking you mean leaving the manifolds on and just bending the pipes at the flanges to accomodate the slightly wider V...
also with a longer throw on the crank the sump might be a bit larger to accomodate that...

of course all those factors would make it difficult to put a 3.0 system onto a 3.5, not the other way around :confused:

redav, yes i was thinking the zorst would probably just sit a little low, like extractors designed for the 3.5 do when put on a 3.0, if u tried a 3.5 pipe onto a 3.0 engine. so where does this 4" gap end up at? Im thinking you mean leaving the manifolds on and just bending the pipes at the flanges to accomodate the slightly wider V...
also with a longer throw on the crank the sump might be a bit larger to accomodate that...

of course all those factors would make it difficult to put a 3.0 system onto a 3.5, not the other way around :confused:
I'm not exactly sure. The impression I got was that it wasn't at the front but halfway down or near the rear. The guys who have done it whinged about it but wouldn't say exactly where it was.

heathyoung, u cant shave the heads to get more comp, or we would do it (I wanted to). being V6 the inlet ports will mismatch the inlet manifolds if we shave the heads. so u need to use high comp pistons. the ralliart has high comp hypereutectic pistons.


I forgot about that little complication, used to modifying straight 4's and 6's - you would have to modify the intake manifold if you shaved the head, because to would fit in the wrong part of the 'V' - you could cut and shut, (and port at the same time) but would it be worth the expense versus new pistons, bearings, rings... Probably.

What a PITA. No wonder people stick to bolt on mods :P

Cheers
Heath Young

heathyoung, u cant shave the heads to get more comp, or we would do it (I wanted to). being V6 the inlet ports will mismatch the inlet manifolds if we shave the heads. so u need to use high comp pistons. the ralliart has high comp hypereutectic pistons.

I reckon you could shave the heads. You would need to "shave" the face of the inlet manifold as well though, so that it could sit "lower" in the V. This would then realign the ports.

I reckon you could shave the heads. You would need to "shave" the face of the inlet manifold as well though, so that it could sit "lower" in the V. This would then realign the ports.

i suggested that to Dave at RPW and he said it just created more problems than it solves.. :confused:

Yeah - shaving would change the amount (thickness) of material that contacts the gaskget - possibly meaning that the mounts would warp.

Like I said - cut'n'shut - cut the intake runners 10mm or so up from the gasket interface plate, bolt the gasket interface, and remove material from the intake runners until they fit, weld the top (accessible bits) then undo, weld the rest, grind out the dags on the inside, and robert is your proverbial relation.

Cheers
Heath Young