hello peoples i dont know if any one has done this or has thought about doing it i put my pod filter back on today and i took the air map sensor off and had a closer look at it and i was wondering has any one tryed to mod this air map sensor like open it up for instance take the hunny comb thing out of the sensor and shave some of the plastic away so it breaths a bit better dont touch the sencer it self just shave around it and make it bigger or somthing like that

all your thoughts on this would be great :D oh and its a 3rd gen also :D

and would it work for a extra kw or two


thanks every one :cool:

i'm pretty sure the honey combe section is there for a reason, I wouldn't touch it if I were you.

I wouldn't touch the honeycomb eliment as its there to 'straiten' the air flow to the sensor to make it work propperly. As for the other, personally I wouldnt touch it but I'm gutless. Dont think it would achieve much but if you can afford to buy another if you stuff it, go ahead. :D

I've recently thought about some sort of mod to the MAF sensor to prevent the dead acceleration range when using the K&N panel filter, but i havn't come to a conclusion yet. It seems the MAF sensor used in the Magna are really sensitive to the way it calculates the movement of air. I don't think enlarging the air passage would help too much since the computer will not recognise a higher flow of air, and secondly if that was to be done, it would need to be done carefully so the design won't create a reflection, thus creating a "swirl of air" on the edges of the passages which would affect the readings.

I've been looking at other types of MAF sensors we might be able to use, but the type of MAF sensor used (Karman Vortex) is unfortunately uncommon, but at least someone with electronic expertise can create a "signal convertor" if a different MAF sensor is used, at the very least it would only need to compensate the different frequency readings. The other issue is that the Magna actually has three sensors in the MAF sensor, 1) The air flow sensor, 2) Barometric pressure sensor and the intake temperature sensor.

The honeycomb section does straighten out the air for the air flow sensor to work properly, so it would be beneficial for that to stay on.

[QUOTE=TecoDaN]The honeycomb section does straighten out the air for the air flow sensor to work properly, so it would be beneficial for that to stay on.[/QUOTE

ok something to think about if the honeycomb thing straightens the air out that means you could put any pod on your 3rd gen and you cant not just the k&n pod for the 3rd gen that serpose to allow the air to flow in straight why cant you put a normal pod on a 3rd gen they say it swerls the air if thats the case the honeycomb would straigten it wouldnt it ??? so if i have the k&n pod filter that serpose to let the air flow in straight i could take that honey comb out hay ???????

what are you thoughts on that fellas ???

[QUOTE=TecoDaN]The honeycomb section does straighten out the air for the air flow sensor to work properly, so it would be beneficial for that to stay on.[/QUOTE

ok something to think about if the honeycomb thing straightens the air out that means you could put any pod on your 3rd gen and you cant not just the k&n pod for the 3rd gen that serpose to allow the air to flow in straight why cant you put a normal pod on a 3rd gen they say it swerls the air if thats the case the honeycomb would straigten it wouldnt it ??? so if i have the k&n pod filter that serpose to let the air flow in straight i could take that honey comb out hay ???????

what are you thoughts on that fellas ???

No, the oval filter is supposed to be better in reducing swirl than the normal circular ones do but the air will still swirl around. The honeycomb section was designed for the panel filter and so elliminating turbulance on a small scale, not the swirling air which is created by the cone, and lesser extent, oval.
As far as my understanding goes, the MAF sensor is a bit touchie at best so yeah, leave the honeycomb in place, it wont improve air flow much if at all anyway.

[QUOTE=TecoDaN]The honeycomb section does straighten out the air for the air flow sensor to work properly, so it would be beneficial for that to stay on.[/QUOTE

ok something to think about if the honeycomb thing straightens the air out that means you could put any pod on your 3rd gen and you cant not just the k&n pod for the 3rd gen that serpose to allow the air to flow in straight why cant you put a normal pod on a 3rd gen they say it swerls the air if thats the case the honeycomb would straigten it wouldnt it ??? so if i have the k&n pod filter that serpose to let the air flow in straight i could take that honey comb out hay ???????

what are you thoughts on that fellas ???

Yeah I have no idea about that one. But kodo's theory seems logical.

What I really want to do is tap into those sensors and just get readings from different types of air filters. This way we can try to work out exactly what makes the computer go haywire, then try and rectify it. I think at this technological point in time, trial-and-error can only do so much, just because many things are now computer controlled (man how about going back to the days of carbueretted motors!) and so if we think that way too, i'm sure we can extract that extra bit of potential power

am i the only one brave (ok ok stupid) enuff to take the honeycomb out? lol

Ok I am not a thermodynamic engineer or anything! sorry ladies.

But I didn't think that the "honeycomb" was there to straiten the airflow path out, but rather to produce a noise resonance, as the Karmann Vortex airflow meter works on a harmonic frequency produced by the flow of air past said honeycomb.

take this with a grain of salt and perhaps a beer... or two.

Ok I am not a thermodynamic engineer or anything! sorry ladies.

But I didn't think that the "honeycomb" was there to straiten the airflow path out, but rather to produce a noise resonance, as the Karmann Vortex airflow meter works on a harmonic frequency produced by the flow of air past said honeycomb.

take this with a grain of salt and perhaps a beer... or two.

Interesting theory. I'm an Aircraft mechanic so I tend to think of things in aircraft components/terms a bit.
Would be extremely bad idea to take it out if thats the case!

Ok I am not a thermodynamic engineer or anything! sorry ladies.

But I didn't think that the "honeycomb" was there to straiten the airflow path out, but rather to produce a noise resonance, as the Karmann Vortex airflow meter works on a harmonic frequency produced by the flow of air past said honeycomb.

take this with a grain of salt and perhaps a beer... or two.


Not exactly. I won't explain it, but you can read it at: http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/counterpoints/Counterpoint3_3.pdf

Dude thats a good read.
Going to read some more now
thanks
:D

Not exactly. I won't explain it, but you can read it at: http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/counterpoints/Counterpoint3_3.pdf

Cheers for the link TecoDaN, hey I wasn't that far off considering I had a few beers already by the time of posting.

Whoa everyone, slow down!

The 'honey comb' is VITAL to the accurate reading of air flow volume, with out straight air flow the laser cannot accurate read the number of air vortices and hence the volume of air entering the engine. The Karman Vortex type MAF used my Mitsubishi is both complex and very accurate.

Good: It measures elevation/barometric pressure
It measures air temp to assist elimination of prem detonation with too lean a mixture

Bad: Temp is output as Resistance
Baro readings are in volts

UGLY: The air flow meter component works via Frequency outputs - not volts like the hotwire type air flow sensor used for eg in commodores

Hotwire lends itself very well to changes by a cheap simple piggyback (ie Jaycar Digital Fuel Adjuster $80) and modifying the voltage output at 128 points. Cool eh

Karman Vortex Types: The ECU is expecting a Frequency signal. I believe I can create a frequency receiver, use a voltage controlled oscillator circuit to modify the frequency (as a voltage) reconvert the voltage to an output frequency and on it's way to the ECU.

Following?

Why am I working on this? Because I will have change from $250 and a FULLY programmable Piggyback for my MAF. I can use the Jaycar hand controller to program the car on the run!

Make sure your mods are up to scratch esp your TB and air filter or the fuel will just annoy your cat converter and O2 sensor.

Alternatively the Jaycar Digital Pulse Adjuster Kit ($80 also) could probably alter the TB position sensor data to tell the ECU that the TB is open more than it really is an add fuel that way.

Food for thought.

Oh yeah, I have wiring diagrams for 3rd gen 6G74 auto and manuals. I can make a shiftkit with the Jaycar kits too. :cool:

Hey TD my car was recently backfiring due to good ole number 4 lead shorting at the heads.Stripped top off motor and plenum was rather dark ( darker then ive ever seen it before) and found that there was a type of fine soot all the way down the CAI to the MAF sensor. Now i carefully wiped over sensor with tissue, but is there a spray i could use to clean it better or would that bugger it up completly??
Your thoughts.
Adam

Hey TD my car was recently backfiring due to good ole number 4 lead shorting at the heads.Stripped top off motor and plenum was rather dark ( darker then ive ever seen it before) and found that there was a type of fine soot all the way down the CAI to the MAF sensor. Now i carefully wiped over sensor with tissue, but is there a spray i could use to clean it better or would that bugger it up completly??
Your thoughts.
Adam

Well honestly I have no idea what the best way of cleaning the sensor, did your CAI bugger up on you???

I'm sure you know that you can use a carby cleaner spraycan to clean the TB and intake plenum.

Yeah cleaned it all out again with a nulon product that works bloody well...no no very bloody well. Also clead lower intaake manifold also and tapped in some new threads. Just wasn't sure if cleaner would do any damage to sensor??? And no CAI was good still is it was number 4 spark plug lead shorting out. You know how my car is pretty loud well make it a little louder sounding like a worked WRX and then add a nice backfire every time you let off the throttle a little bit. Actually sounded good just no power enough to get me home though........and pulled off exhaust at work to tack up any pin holes and that high flow cat looked in good order( no damage from backfiring)

What diameter are the MAF's in these Magnas? Pro-M make aftermarket MAF's ranging from 60mm up to 85mm (and probably bigger). They can be calibrated to suit most injector flow rates, incl 19lb/hr, 24lb/hr, 36lb/hr and even 42lb/hr for the forced induction maniacs. They are very reasonably priced, and you will probably find that they flow much more efficiently than your stock MAF, even if you decide to alter your factory MAF.

Oh, and WhiteMagna - Its a Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF). Not an Air Map Sensor, that could easily be confused with a Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor which is found in Speed Density Injection systems :) Did any Magna's come out with MAP sensors?

Whoa everyone, slow down!

The 'honey comb' is VITAL to the accurate reading of air flow volume, with out straight air flow the laser cannot accurate read the number of air vortices and hence the volume of air entering the engine. The Karman Vortex type MAF used my Mitsubishi is both complex and very accurate.

Good: It measures elevation/barometric pressure
It measures air temp to assist elimination of prem detonation with too lean a mixture

Bad: Temp is output as Resistance
Baro readings are in volts

UGLY: The air flow meter component works via Frequency outputs - not volts like the hotwire type air flow sensor used for eg in commodores

Hotwire lends itself very well to changes by a cheap simple piggyback (ie Jaycar Digital Fuel Adjuster $80) and modifying the voltage output at 128 points. Cool eh

Karman Vortex Types: The ECU is expecting a Frequency signal. I believe I can create a frequency receiver, use a voltage controlled oscillator circuit to modify the frequency (as a voltage) reconvert the voltage to an output frequency and on it's way to the ECU.

Following?

Why am I working on this? Because I will have change from $250 and a FULLY programmable Piggyback for my MAF. I can use the Jaycar hand controller to program the car on the run!

Make sure your mods are up to scratch esp your TB and air filter or the fuel will just annoy your cat converter and O2 sensor.

Alternatively the Jaycar Digital Pulse Adjuster Kit ($80 also) could probably alter the TB position sensor data to tell the ECU that the TB is open more than it really is an add fuel that way.

Food for thought.

Oh yeah, I have wiring diagrams for 3rd gen 6G74 auto and manuals. I can make a shiftkit with the Jaycar kits too. :cool:

This guy is a true Pioneer into the world of Magna modification........at a budget :P
It's all about increasing the effieciency of the standard parts :D

A replacement sensor will cost you about $60-100 at a wreckers and they differ between models. Different no. of wires. eg TE 5 wires TJ 7 wires. Does anyone know what the resistance/impedance should be for these or have a circuit diagram showing one?

Afaik the VS commodore AFM is frequency based, but what relation of frequency to airflow? You'd have to find out.

I've attached the workshop explanation of the VS sensor (thanks Mick (commodorenut) from SC...)

Cheers,

Dave


Whoa everyone, slow down!

The 'honey comb' is VITAL to the accurate reading of air flow volume, with out straight air flow the laser cannot accurate read the number of air vortices and hence the volume of air entering the engine. The Karman Vortex type MAF used my Mitsubishi is both complex and very accurate.

Good: It measures elevation/barometric pressure
It measures air temp to assist elimination of prem detonation with too lean a mixture

Bad: Temp is output as Resistance
Baro readings are in volts

UGLY: The air flow meter component works via Frequency outputs - not volts like the hotwire type air flow sensor used for eg in commodores

Hotwire lends itself very well to changes by a cheap simple piggyback (ie Jaycar Digital Fuel Adjuster $80) and modifying the voltage output at 128 points. Cool eh

Karman Vortex Types: The ECU is expecting a Frequency signal. I believe I can create a frequency receiver, use a voltage controlled oscillator circuit to modify the frequency (as a voltage) reconvert the voltage to an output frequency and on it's way to the ECU.

Following?

Why am I working on this? Because I will have change from $250 and a FULLY programmable Piggyback for my MAF. I can use the Jaycar hand controller to program the car on the run!

Make sure your mods are up to scratch esp your TB and air filter or the fuel will just annoy your cat converter and O2 sensor.

Alternatively the Jaycar Digital Pulse Adjuster Kit ($80 also) could probably alter the TB position sensor data to tell the ECU that the TB is open more than it really is an add fuel that way.

Food for thought.

Oh yeah, I have wiring diagrams for 3rd gen 6G74 auto and manuals. I can make a shiftkit with the Jaycar kits too. :cool:

On topic;

Fitting a pod and leaving the std hosing is almost pointless, the restrictions on an intake system come from the rippled hoses and huge amounts of joins in the piping for the system itself between the filter and the throttle body. The propper way to do it is to have a smooth pipe from the TB to the MAF sensor and then a decient length between the pod and the MAF sensor again. This is to make the flow of air less turbulent and flow smoothley into the MAF sensor. The flat spot found by some who attach a pod to a MAF sensor just like the std airbox attaches to the MAF sensor is because that aswell as sucking in turbulent air, its also sucking from the cold side of the pod and the hot side which unknowingly can make a huge difference in MAF sensor readings, enough to cause a mild lean or overfueling instant. Bottom line is, unless your doing it for looks and the noise, your better of doing it properly the first time. With that said, if your doing it for looks and the sound, the STD intake piping is rippled and made of plastic which is done for a reason, to cut down noise, if you make it all 1 piece stainless, or even just a few bends and hose joins, then it will sound MAD and function aswell :D


/speel

I know a guy who's very cluey with engine electronix, I'm meeting up with him monday and we're going to take the TJ MAF 'apart' and see if the vortices are being measured by number passing the laser, length of the vortices or both. I should be able to score the electrical data from a guy at Repco who's apparently got it all on database.

Still, it's looking easier just to get a FPR and larger injectors....

Still, it's looking easier just to get a FPR and larger injectors....
extra fuel is only needed if you have extra air

On topic;

Fitting a pod and leaving the std hosing is almost pointless, the restrictions on an intake system come from the rippled hoses and huge amounts of joins in the piping for the system itself between the filter and the throttle body. The propper way to do it is to have a smooth pipe from the TB to the MAF sensor and then a decient length between the pod and the MAF sensor again. This is to make the flow of air less turbulent and flow smoothley into the MAF sensor. The flat spot found by some who attach a pod to a MAF sensor just like the std airbox attaches to the MAF sensor is because that aswell as sucking in turbulent air, its also sucking from the cold side of the pod and the hot side which unknowingly can make a huge difference in MAF sensor readings, enough to cause a mild lean or overfueling instant. Bottom line is, unless your doing it for looks and the noise, your better of doing it properly the first time. With that said, if your doing it for looks and the sound, the STD intake piping is rippled and made of plastic which is done for a reason, to cut down noise, if you make it all 1 piece stainless, or even just a few bends and hose joins, then it will sound MAD and function aswell :D


/speel

Yeah, and the skinny little intake has nothing to do with it at all :nuts:
But sh*t stiring aside I do hear where your coming from :)

extra fuel is only needed if you have extra air

They run largely lean so it can't hurt a little hear and there. Dyno and roadtest will tell. Ported heads and oversize valves etc will also do nicely :D

peak power is at 15:1 AF ratio, in which all the oxygen is being burn. Shame that sorta AF melts todays pistons and heads :cry: if the ecu in closed loop when ur gunning is still fueling within spec then a FPR isn't needed, they are only for if you are running lean because the ecu still thinks the stock amount of air is getting in

They run largely lean so it can't hurt a little hear and there.
What runs largely lean?

has anybody checked if the Magna MAS has this adjusting screw?

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclipsetech/2gmasadjustment.htm

has anybody checked if the Magna MAS has this adjusting screw?

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclipsetech/2gmasadjustment.htm

That's pretty interesting and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. I can see dozens of Magna owners pulling out their MAS this Australia Day Public Holiday.

Me? I'm fitting my shift kit :D Wish me luck!

supposedly this can be done as a basic adjuster for fuel air mixture