Hey all,

I have some play money and I am at a fork in the road again. I am considering my next performance mod and I have been throwing the ideas at members, but each mod seems to have it's pro's and con's, which throws me into more indecision... I know these threads pop up from time to time but I am just seeking some aditional feedback. From anyone who has ideas.

I haven't got wads of money so turbo and all that is out of the question! and I am after more low down power... for some reason I think the torque has increased but speed has decreased. After the next mod I will be doing a full retune (including EManage) and dyno. I am not wanting to sell up dispite the ODO reading, as I am very happy so far.

Car specs to date:
- 3.0TF Auto, (sadly 217,000 km on the ODO)
- GReddy EManage,
- DIY high flow throttle body
- K&N Panel
- Redback Exhaust cat back
- Pacemaker headers

Here is what I have considered:

High flow cat: I hear that the high flow cat will give me no extra gain over the stock one. I also hear this can be one of the most restrictive components.
FPR: (rising rate) I hear that the EManage should be performing the same function if tuned properly as an FPR would. On the other hand I hear that low end gains can be made here.
CAI short kit: Heat from the engine bay reducing the CAI principle. Considered heat shielding and sectioned off air... oh and did I mention bonnet vent? :shock:
CAI long kit: Dirt and water clogging up the intake and filters, but better method of cold air intake overall.

Rebored: I kept this seprate as it is obviously an expensive one... one which would nt be done any time soon anyway... but I am seriously considering it this year.

I will be taking my car to a workshop over the next few weeks to get more input on the above and more recommendations (cheers Ash). What I have listed above is not to disprove anybodies valued advice, I am just after more input if possible. Anything will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Neil

Since you already have a bunch of mods and the piggy back I'm pretty sure you'll get some benefit from a high-flow cat. The only real way to be sure (apart from doing it of course) is to measure the pressure before the cat and again immediately after it. If there's a big pressure drop then it's a worthwhile investment.

The greddy doesn't perform the same duties as an FPR, and more than just getting an FPR the style that RPW and the like would have you buy is a rising rate FPR rather than a constant rate FPR. I don't really know much, but as I understand it the rising rate FPR will increase the fuel pressure faster than the factory FPR which means when you stab the throttle you get the extra juice you need sooner so there's less risk of leaning out. The greddy will tell the computer how much fuel to inject but can't control how quickly it arrives. Make sense? Anyone who knows more about this feel free to point out my mistakes.

As for CAI - you can get yourself a snorkel based CAI setup using $15 worth of 90mm PVC and a couple of bends, and still keep the panel filter intact. I've done this and I think it's been worthwhile, but I have no actual evidence to support that claim :D Anyway, if you don't want to spend $200 on a pod and then some more on even TH Smoker's nice CAI kit and miss out on other mods, it might be worth a look.

Hope that helps.

seriously - if you want a turbo install - dont spend those spare pennies now.... every penny goes towards that main goal..


and to be honest, those mods you listed wont feed your hunger for too long... and most have niggly gains some hardly worth the cost...

if your serious about a turbo *one day* make today the day you start seriously saving.... because you'd be dissapointed in that one day half of the $$ you spend on N/A blocks wont be able to be used when you go forced feed...

there was only one part of my big N/A block that i could use with the turbo - that was the heads... the other 7grand i spend on the N/A block went litterly to waste.... dont make the same mistake!!!

turbo or non-turbo.... if its not the latter - then displine yourself to save.... look at the bigger picture... i could of saved 7+ grand if i went turbo instead of just n/a first....


think about it ;)

BOoya

F**king Oath! :stoopid:

If you REALLY have to spend, get the heads done. Talk to Dallas, Booya has his number. Knows his gear!!

I'm saving for the heads at present, with view to Turbo or SC application.

F**king Oath! :stoopid:

If you REALLY have to spend, get the heads done. Talk to Dallas, Booya has his number. Knows his gear!!

I'm saving for the heads at present, with view to Turbo or SC application.

have you spoken to dallas have you lol sweet as.. helpful i hope :D

The only real way to be sure (apart from doing it of course) is to measure the pressure before the cat and again immediately after it.
Good point, i'd imagine tricky to do but it makes perfect sense


...as I understand it the rising rate FPR will increase the fuel pressure faster than the factory FPR which means when you stab the throttle you get the extra juice you need sooner so there's less risk of leaning out.
That's as I understand it.. I actually meant a rising rate... I better change the orignal post cheers. This seemed like the most likely low down power mod that would work noticeably (well I hoped)


As for CAI - you can get yourself a snorkel based CAI setup using $15 worth of 90mm PVC and a couple of bends, and still keep the panel filter intact.
I will have a look at that in the morning, thanks


Hope that helps.
It did thank you :D

------------------------------------------------------------------------

seriously - if you want a turbo install - dont spend those spare pennies now.... every penny goes towards that main goal..
Yeah, that thought has been looming over my head for the last 6 months, but I am not sure as far as a turbo goes whether I am beating a dead horse, so to speak as my engine, although still going remarkably well would need extensive rework I would imagine... I don't know if I could justify the cost. Certainly tempting though!



and to be honest, those mods you listed wont feed your hunger for too long... and most have niggly gains some hardly worth the cost...
lol you summed up my story to date in one sentence!


if your serious about a turbo *one day* make today the day you start seriously saving.... because you'd be dissapointed in that one day half of the $$ you spend on N/A blocks wont be able to be used when you go forced feed...
It's a bloody big decision, but I don't need to tell you that, I have been holding back on any significant motor jobs wondering where I might go with it. I guess first and foremost, there is no way to get a return on that investment if I wanted to sell down the track so in one way I am asking myself if I am willing to write of more than $5000... but yeah, sure I will enjoy it :badgrin:


turbo or non-turbo.... if its not the latter - then displine yourself to save.... look at the bigger picture... i could of saved 7+ grand if i went turbo instead of just n/a first....
You are definately right... I guess it is a matter of patience, something I don't have a lot of... maybe I should just do some minor exterior work.... and as you say SAVE!
Thanks Ben, appreciated. :thumbsup:

twin cam heads ?

twin cam heads ?
Ahh, well there's an interesting thought.!!!

F**king Oath! :stoopid:

If you REALLY have to spend, get the heads done. Talk to Dallas, Booya has his number. Knows his gear!!

I'm saving for the heads at present, with view to Turbo or SC application.
What do you mean exactly, are you responding to my comment on reworking the engine? what what exactly was on your mind?
Thanks for the contact too!

what's the current thinking re: high power output (ie: forced induction) and the invecs transmission? This was always the limiting factor for me. Otherwise I would suggest (if NA is what you are sticking with) a cam upgrade.

auto>manual swap?

as for the high flow cat - didn't notice anything when I added one (didn't expect to though).

FPR would be a waste of time at this level of modification, considering you have engine management

CAI is always a good thing - but the results are going to be negligible


Trying to add torque is just not going to happen, at least in any meaningful amounts, with bolt-ons.

']
Trying to add torque is just not going to happen, at least in any meaningful amounts, with bolt-ons.

I agree!!

Save more money (and if you plan to keep the Magna) get it bored out to 3.3 (or what ever was the safe ammount) and reco/rebuild the motor to suit mods down the track.

I'd personally go for a mild cam package, slight CR increase and propper ECU tune. All this in combination with the larger capacity should increase torque noticablly and no doubt push out a few fast ponies :P

Thanks everyone for the input.. I have actually had a lot of feedback now and a majority are saying do cam work... I would love to turbo it, but I am thinking that it would be better suited to a car with more life expectancy than mine. I also agree with the save up and do it properly idea... as I said.. I don't know if my patience will hold out but I will try lol
Cheers

unless your cat is blocked (possible at those km) dont bother changing it.
since u are not so far off a new motor anyway, do cam and headwork so u can keep those. when u do rebuild the motor go high comp pistons and u will have a very nice beast of a N/A motor.
I think u should get a compression test done, (very cheap) to see just how tired your motor already is, if some or all pistons are down it wont rev out smoothly even with the new heads and cams so u should just get the lot done at once and save on labor costs.

fpr is totally useless... your greddy takes care of how much fuel your car needs.

the issue of fpr has already been coverd WaTCHME


The greddy doesn't perform the same duties as an FPR, and more than just getting an FPR the style that RPW and the like would have you buy is a rising rate FPR rather than a constant rate FPR. I don't really know much, but as I understand it the rising rate FPR will increase the fuel pressure faster than the factory FPR which means when you stab the throttle you get the extra juice you need sooner so there's less risk of leaning out. The greddy will tell the computer how much fuel to inject but can't control how quickly it arrives. Make sense? Anyone who knows more about this feel free to point out my mistakes.

i still say stage 2 cams, heavy port n polish, really high compression and proper twin exaust setup and really wyld air intake.

The greddy doesn't perform the same duties as an FPR, and more than just getting an FPR the style that RPW and the like would have you buy is a rising rate FPR rather than a constant rate FPR. I don't really know much, but as I understand it the rising rate FPR will increase the fuel pressure faster than the factory FPR which means when you stab the throttle you get the extra juice you need sooner so there's less risk of leaning out. The greddy will tell the computer how much fuel to inject but can't control how quickly it arrives. Make sense? Anyone who knows more about this feel free to point out my mistakes.
The main issue I kept getting told is that under hard acceleration, the rate at which the fuel is delivered can be adversly affected by the acceleration which causes the leaning out as the fuel pressure drops off. I think this is hard to guage without actual onroad testing and I don't think every car suffers this.

If you're talking stage 2 gears from RPW then remember they require adjustable gears and valve springs. Actually, I think we are yet to hear of any successful cam installations.

Hey Hyper, have you thought of doing any suspension or brake mods yet?

You mention possibly going down the forced induction path, and throwing away money if you start adding N/A type modifications (or any mods to the engine really) and you decide a turbo (or two, or a S/C) is the way to go.

Suspension mods WILL be required with any forced induction, along with brake mods.

So before you have decided on what the hell you are doing with the engine (and saving up for such), I say look at polyurethane bushes, the complete Whiteline (or your preferred manufacturer here) kit (Strut braces, sway bars, anti-lift kit, whatever else) plus springs and shocks, then look into the Evo Lancer Bembo Swapsies as advocated by Booya.

Then you will be in good shape once you boost! In the mean time, if will be much more fun to drive, and stop better - what's the point of going if you cannot stop?

mmmmn, boost!

Altera98: Yep, good idea about the compression test... have considered it before but just haven't done anything about it. This will more than likely be done next.

MitsiMonsta: I mentioned that a turbo is a welcome thought but I don't think it is wise for my car. I agree with your point about the suspension and brakes... I have my sets of DBA slotted rotors and Bendix pads sitting right here begging to be put in :D suspension well I need to research that one a bit.

Positive comments/recommendations:
- "high comp pistons"
- "bored out to 3.3"
- "mild cam package, slight CR increase and propper ECU tune"
- "do cam and headwork"
- "i still say stage 2 cams, heavy port n polish, really high compression and proper twin exaust setup and really wyld air intake"
- "I'm pretty sure you'll get some benefit from a high-flow cat"
- "displine yourself to save.... look at the bigger picture..."
- "If you REALLY have to spend, get the heads done"
- "twin cam heads?"
- "auto>manual swap?"

Negative comments/recmmendations:
- "FPR would be a waste of time"
- "fpr is totally useless"
- "unless your cat is blocked (possible at those km) dont bother changing it"

Thanks again, I guess reading all this there is some pretty affirmative recommendations around cam and head/engine work/rework, which is a good sign. I guess I have to be realistic... I am not going to have a machine like Booya or Mitsiman's, but none the less I want a car that will go hard, an engine which is strong and can handle it reliably. I feel myself swinging away from forced induction, as great as it sounds, a worked motor is more apealing to me personally I guess. Plus not too many go the rebore option... It might make for an interesting project.
Suggestions still more than welcome :D

yay! one of my quotes made the positive comments countdown! :bowrofl:

do u have a auto or a manual, i am not sure. if you have a auto then why not rebuild the
auto. with ur mileage it would be wise. i am not sure how much money you want to spend
but a performance rebuild will knock 1/2 a second of ur quarter mile time and u wont have to worry about it breaking in a long time. a torque converter alone will help you. and then u add high performance bends, clutches and recalibrated soloenoids [for faster shifting]. all that will not only help u launch better but also be more fun to drive. i know u were considering this but i figured i'd just throw the idea out there. our autos are stong enough by the way but they are slow.

manual should knock a full second from a standard TF invecs - but better still, has all the other bonuses associated with a 'real' transmission :)

']manual should knock a full second from a standard TF invecs - but better still, has all the other bonuses associated with a 'real' transmission :)


yup! i agree.

Actually, I think we are yet to hear of any successful cam installations.

I think you're right there.. although Velocity's pre-TT setup included some RPW cams I think, but in a fit of madness his installer (not RPW) installed one of the cams slightly out of whack so they weren't performing to their full potential.


The main issue I kept getting told is that under hard acceleration, the rate at which the fuel is delivered can be adversly affected by the acceleration which causes the leaning out as the fuel pressure drops off. I think this is hard to guage without actual onroad testing and I don't think every car suffers this.

Are you saying you've heard that the rate of accelleration is sufficient to cause fuel starvation? Were they suggesting that this was because of the fuel moving to the back of the tank as the car accelerated (the same way people get problems during hard cornering with a nearly empty tank), or something else?

On a different note, it looks like this thread has gone off on a slight tangent. As I understood it, when I read the first entry, HyperTF had a couple of hundred samoleans in his pocket to blow on a quick'n'dirty mod, and now we're all talking head work and cams. The former won't leave much change from a grand and the latter is unlikely to come in at less than $1500, or $2000 for 'Stage 2' grinds. :shock:

Not that I have anything against planning for the future :badgrin:

I think you're right there.. although Velocity's pre-TT setup included some RPW cams I think, but in a fit of madness his installer (not RPW) installed one of the cams slightly out of whack so they weren't performing to their full potential.
Heh heh... yeah, slightly...


Are you saying you've heard that the rate of accelleration is sufficient to cause fuel starvation? Were they suggesting that this was because of the fuel moving to the back of the tank as the car accelerated (the same way people get problems during hard cornering with a nearly empty tank), or something else?
Well, that's what Dave used to always say. It's not the fuel in the tank, it's the fuel in the fuel rail. The stock FPR rises in a 1:1 rate but a rising rate increases at 1.7:1 which supposedly overcomes the loss of pressure due to acceleration. It's adjustable so you can change the pressure but the downside is that if it's left high, you will chew through the fuel. I think Manual's old car was lucky to get 400km's to a tank. Mal, can you comment?

If this is the case then every car should suffer a similar issue but I think there's only a few people who have experienced this. It's something that doesn't occur on a dyno so correct tuning doesn't overcome this.

And read this post: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13850

redav was correct when he said that the rr-fpr is not always going to improver performance as a rule because not every car suffers from leaning out under load. i think the rr-fpr will only be a benefit when u have this problem. and even then it will only help the initial stab of throttle, after that if your fuel pump isnt up to the job, the fpr wont save u. The fpr also wont do a thing except look pretty in the engine bay if the tuning is already good as well.

a normal malpassi fpr or factory unit will set the fuel pressure at around 40psi, the FSE rr-fpr is based on the malpassi but is slightly different, in that it increases the rate of fuel pressure under vacuum. obviously if your engine is boosted u have no vacuum for a start.
i figured this out when i wanted to try taking my FSE rr-fpr off my magna to use on a datsun motor with turbo and efi from a mirage, anyway that project got scrapped. so an additional bosch electric fuel pump in the boot does the trick instead just fine of supplying the extra fuel. The rr-fpr is back in the magna and im not convinced it does a lot except maybe improve initial throttle response.

I think the proper way is high pressure fuel system and bigger jets or injectors and programmable ecu, rr-fpr is just a shortcut measure if theres a very minor leaning out under load problem.