I know I ran a thread a while ago asking how much a TH 3.5 wagon will cost me but I drove one today as well as a VS wagon (which felt like it had been on a farm) and I really want a TH 3.5 wagon for around 8K, most I have seen are more like 9.5-10.5K but once above the 10k ish mark you start getting into higher mileage TJ's. I've seen a TJ Advance for $10,700 in a yard and have also seen similar priced TJ's in the paper, I really don't want to spend much more than 8K, but I need the 3.5 for towing, what does everyone think? Am I being unreasonable? :confused:

If you can get a TH 3.5 for 8k, grab it....fast....:noway:

I've seen em around in Sydney, some of the dealers on Parramatta Road near Clyde/Rosehill sell the 3.5 Wagons all the time for pretty low prices (but lots of them are high KMs)... I'm sure you'll find one if you look hard enough

If you can get a TH 3.5 for 8k, grab it....fast....:noway:

Yeah, it seems that TH and TJ Magnas are not much different in price, they are very similar cars anyway just a few cosmetic mods, but if I have to go over the 10K mark which may well be the case I'll go for the newer fresher looking TJ, if earlier TJ's are getting down into the late 10K to low 11K mark in yards the older TH has to come down, something has to give, this price range is well into 98\99 model VT commodore and Falcon AU range, clearly not as well built cars as the magna but popular full sized RWD family cars just the same, something has to give, those TH 3.5's have to come down in price......because I want one
:rant:

I've seen em around in Sydney, some of the dealers on Parramatta Road near Clyde/Rosehill sell the 3.5 Wagons all the time for pretty low prices (but lots of them are high KMs)... I'm sure you'll find one if you look hard enough

What sort of prices? The mileage does not really matter to me it will be a work horse anyway, I am in Adelaide, I think 'Pickles Auctions' sell older cars like these, the Govt. auctions sell newer cars less than 2 years old. Mitsubishi should have released the 3.5 with the TE model to compete with Ford and Holden as towing packages, why did it take them so long to get it?

You often see the 3.5 wagons for around $9k which might be a bit over your budget, but I reckon you'd find something if you waited for the right sale... maybe also be able to talk a dealer down a bit...

I haven't checked in the last few weeks so who knows what's around at the moment...

You often see the 3.5 wagons for around $9k which might be a bit over your budget, but I reckon you'd find something if you waited for the right sale... maybe also be able to talk a dealer down a bit...

I haven't checked in the last few weeks so who knows what's around at the moment...

The TH wagons I've seen in yards for that price all seem to be the 3.0 engine, it is funny, I can remember all those years ago when the Sigma 2.6 came out and the bigger engine was not an overly expensive option but people still opted for the gutless and thirstier 2.0 thinking they'd save fuel as well as a few hundred dollars on the option box ticking in spite of poor resale value down the track, I see a similarity with the sigma 2.6 engine option and the Magna 3.5 option, funny how things don't ever change, as I said Mitsi should have dropped the 3.0, but it is still an option on the TJ or I think that the 3.5 is still an option on the TJ1 that is, stupid really.

mate if you want it for towing, then as much as i love magna's, i would be looking to buy a commodore or a falcon. Now before the flaming starts, it is a proven fact that rear wheel drive vehicles are far superior for towing the front wheel drive, and the autos in commodores especially are quite a solid and reliable unit, unfortunately the same cant really be said for the magna's auto. Also the magna V6 is what you would call a screamer engine, by that i mean that it loves to rev. The downside to this is that it doesnt have the best low down torque, soemthing that is important for towing. The falcon and commodores however are really good at the low down torque thing.

I know the VS you drove felt like it was from a farm, but i have owned a VS before so i do know that you CAN get a VS which drives very smoothly and rides and handles quite good. They also have the advantage of interior space. And for 8k, you could easily pick up a VS V6 auto wagon. You could pick up a decent one for as little as 6k if you know where to look!!! A late model EL falcon you could pick up for around the same price, i dont believe they are as reliable as the commodore, but they are possibly a bit nicer around the edges then the commie

my 2.2cents (incl GST)

mate if you want it for towing, then as much as i love magna's, i would be looking to buy a commodore or a falcon. Now before the flaming starts, it is a proven fact that rear wheel drive vehicles are far superior for towing the front wheel drive, and the autos in commodores especially are quite a solid and reliable unit, unfortunately the same cant really be said for the magna's auto. Also the magna V6 is what you would call a screamer engine, by that i mean that it loves to rev. The downside to this is that it doesnt have the best low down torque, soemthing that is important for towing. The falcon and commodores however are really good at the low down torque thing.

I know the VS you drove felt like it was from a farm, but i have owned a VS before so i do know that you CAN get a VS which drives very smoothly and rides and handles quite good. They also have the advantage of interior space. And for 8k, you could easily pick up a VS V6 auto wagon. You could pick up a decent one for as little as 6k if you know where to look!!! A late model EL falcon you could pick up for around the same price, i dont believe they are as reliable as the commodore, but they are possibly a bit nicer around the edges then the commie

my 2.2cents (incl GST)

yep.... or you could maybe pick up a wrecked AWD magna for 8 grand lol

but yer, seriously, if your doing some serious (like a caravan or something, not the occasional 4x6 trailer with a tool box in it) then get some RWD... you'd prolly be able to get a EF faclcon auto for 8 grand.

mate if you want it for towing, then as much as i love magna's, i would be looking to buy a commodore or a falcon. Now before the flaming starts, it is a proven fact that rear wheel drive vehicles are far superior for towing the front wheel drive, and the autos in commodores especially are quite a solid and reliable unit, unfortunately the same cant really be said for the magna's auto. Also the magna V6 is what you would call a screamer engine, by that i mean that it loves to rev. The downside to this is that it doesnt have the best low down torque, soemthing that is important for towing. The falcon and commodores however are really good at the low down torque thing.

I know the VS you drove felt like it was from a farm, but i have owned a VS before so i do know that you CAN get a VS which drives very smoothly and rides and handles quite good. They also have the advantage of interior space. And for 8k, you could easily pick up a VS V6 auto wagon. You could pick up a decent one for as little as 6k if you know where to look!!! A late model EL falcon you could pick up for around the same price, i dont believe they are as reliable as the commodore, but they are possibly a bit nicer around the edges then the commie

my 2.2cents (incl GST)

Thanks RJL25 I know where you are coming from and agree that RWD is the only way to go for towing, I just want some refinement as it will also be my family car everyday driver, I absolutely love quiet cars, even the older Magnas 1996 TE still drive like new cars, all these 3rd gen maggies are simply lovely and I hate front wheel drive and love rear wheel drive thats what I learnt to drive in mum's 1970 Fiat 124 sports. The VS I drove was $7000 but it drove the same way a $3,500 VR did, it was no better, just as bumpy, noisy and harsh, it had only done about 130,000 km as well, it was a "1996 VN" that looked ever so slightly different, but only slightly, but drove the same, powerful and rough.
The VT is much better but so damned heavy, an absolute barge by comparison, I love the VY and VZ and the Ford BA (apart from fuel consumption). Yes the EL is not a bad RWD car either and the EL fairmont Ghia gets the Tickford XR6 engine as well, even the AU is a good car but so ugly. If only these world class 3rd gen Magnas were Rear wheel drive, if only the Titanic had slowed down and avoided the iceberg :rant:

If only these world class 3rd gen Magnas were Rear wheel drive, if only the Titanic had slowed down and avoided the iceberg

WORD! RESP3CT

Thanks RJL25 I know where you are coming from and agree that RWD is the only way to go for towing, I just want some refinement as it will also be my family car everyday driver, I absolutely love quiet cars, even the older Magnas 1996 TE still drive like new cars, all these 3rd gen maggies are simply lovely and I hate front wheel drive and love rear wheel drive thats what I learnt to drive in mum's 1970 Fiat 124 sports. The VS I drove was $7000 but it drove the same way a $3,500 VR did, it was no better, just as bumpy, noisy and harsh, it had only done about 130,000 km as well, it was a "1996 VN" that looked ever so slightly different, but only slightly, but drove the same, powerful and rough.
The VT is much better but so damned heavy, an absolute barge by comparison, I love the VY and VZ and the Ford BA (apart from fuel consumption). Yes the EL is not a bad RWD car either and the EL fairmont Ghia gets the Tickford XR6 engine as well, even the AU is a good car but so ugly. If only these world class 3rd gen Magnas were Rear wheel drive, if only the Titanic had slowed down and avoided the iceberg :rant:

one thing tho, dont be tooo put off by the old ****ty VN commodore, the VS had the ecotec motor put in them for the first time and these where a massive difference in refinement. Seriously if you dont drive it hard, you dont even notice the difference in smoothness or refinement between a VS commodore and a V6 magna. You only notice it when you rev em to redline. If its a family car i dont know if you would be doing that very often??

The VR model which looks the same as the VS had the old ****ty motor, only the VS got the newer better ecotec V6. Its the same engine as in the VT, so if you dont mind the refinement of a VT, then you shouldnt be too dissapointed with a VS, assuming its in good nic!!! which isnt always a given when it comes to commodores!!

What are you talking about - the ecotech is a piece of cr@p. unless by refinement you mean 'pulls like a golf cart'

one thing tho, dont be tooo put off by the old ****ty VN commodore, the VS had the ecotec motor put in them for the first time and these where a massive difference in refinement. Seriously if you dont drive it hard, you dont even notice the difference in smoothness or refinement between a VS commodore and a V6 magna. You only notice it when you rev em to redline. If its a family car i dont know if you would be doing that very often??

The VR model which looks the same as the VS had the old ****ty motor, only the VS got the newer better ecotec V6. Its the same engine as in the VT, so if you dont mind the refinement of a VT, then you shouldnt be too dissapointed with a VS, assuming its in good nic!!! which isnt always a given when it comes to commodores!!

Yes I drove a nearly new VS once and it was quite nice, this particular one had drivetrain harshness\vibration felt like the tail shaft was shaped like a boomerang, and even at idle the engine was too noisy, my VX ecotec is relatively quiet and smooth.
The VR buick engines were more harsh but they sure could go and responded to mods to.
I think the Ford EL is probably more refined all round than the VS, it looks more modern.

Yes I drove a nearly new VS once and it was quite nice, this particular one had drivetrain harshness\vibration felt like the tail shaft was shaped like a boomerang, and even at idle the engine was too noisy, my VX ecotec is relatively quiet and smooth.
The VR buick engines were more harsh but they sure could go and responded to mods to.
I think the Ford EL is probably more refined all round than the VS, it looks more modern.

I think your right there, the falcon as i said is just a bit more smooth around the edges, especially on the interior, much better then the VS, but the VS handled quite a bit better!


What are you talking about - the ecotech is a piece of cr@p. unless by refinement you mean 'pulls like a golf cart'

look their no BMW engine, but they are quite smooth if you get one in good condition. Im not sure which ecotecs you have driven (if any?) but there is not guarante they where in good condition now is there!

The VS i previously owned was bought off my parents who purchased it new. So i know a little bit of what im talkin about and im here to tell you that there is nothing wrong with the engine in a VS. For a start you can use the torque to drive the car around without ever revving any higher then 2500rpm, and still keep up with traffic when accelerating from lights! thats how torquey the engines are. And unless you rev them beyond 4000rpm (which in normal driving conditions there is absolutely no need to do) they are just as smooth as a magna V6. The magna V6 is only smoother above 4000rpm, at which point the ecotec starts running out of puff

I think your right there, the falcon as i said is just a bit more smooth around the edges, especially on the interior, much better then the VS, but the VS handled quite a bit better!



look their no BMW engine, but they are quite smooth if you get one in good condition. Im not sure which ecotecs you have driven (if any?) but there is not guarante they where in good condition now is there!

The VS i previously owned was bought off my parents who purchased it new. So i know a little bit of what im talkin about and im here to tell you that there is nothing wrong with the engine in a VS. For a start you can use the torque to drive the car around without ever revving any higher then 2500rpm, and still keep up with traffic when accelerating from lights! thats how torquey the engines are. And unless you rev them beyond 4000rpm (which in normal driving conditions there is absolutely no need to do) they are just as smooth as a magna V6. The magna V6 is only smoother above 4000rpm, at which point the ecotec starts running out of puff


Yes Ford is the true 'King of Torque' with it's long stroke to bore ratio, they'd pull a house down, but they are loath to rev above 4000rpm and with the tall gearing you'd get a speeding ticket if you did, they really go on the roll on overtaking power though, the Ecotec is a good everyday family car engine but for revs the Magna 3.0 is even sweeter than the 3.5 I've heard, I'd imagine the 3.0 magna with a manual gearbox would be fun "boy racer" style.

Yes Ford is the true 'King of Torque' with it's long stroke to bore ratio, they'd pull a house down, but they are loath to rev above 4000rpm and with the tall gearing you'd get a speeding ticket if you did, they really go on the roll on overtaking power though, the Ecotec is a good everyday family car engine but for revs the Magna 3.0 is even sweeter than the 3.5 I've heard, I'd imagine the 3.0 magna with a manual gearbox would be fun "boy racer" style.

with the roll on accelerating thing, my VS would only just be beaten by my TL magna when it comes to 80-120km/h dash's, and my VS was 6 years old by the time i got it and had slown up a bit by that stage... The also quite good on fuel too providing you dont thrash it. Driven normally i would get around 11Lper 100km's out of the VS, whereas my TL normally does closer to 12... so theres nothing wrong with them on the economy side of things... falcons on the other can be quite thirsty...

with the roll on accelerating thing, my VS would only just be beaten by my TL magna when it comes to 80-120km/h dash's, and my VS was 6 years old by the time i got it and had slown up a bit by that stage... The also quite good on fuel too providing you dont thrash it. Driven normally i would get around 11Lper 100km's out of the VS, whereas my TL normally does closer to 12... so theres nothing wrong with them on the economy side of things... falcons on the other can be quite thirsty...

Yes the Falcon would need to be on LPG or they are not economically viable, the Ecotecs on the other hand have outstanding economy, wheels magazine tested falcon, commodore, camry,Magna all autos and 1996 models and the VS matched the 3.0 auto Magna for overall fuel economy, my VX got from Coburg Melbourne to Hallett Cove Adelaide on 63 litres with cruise control set @ 100kph, my old sigma GE 77 model could not make it from Adelaide to Mt. Gambier out of a tank and needed filling up at Penola, a range of about 380 KM from 60L of fuel but it's gearing was very low about 3,600 rpm at 100 kph in fifth.

WORD! RESP3CT

Nice looking Magna there BOosted' BOoya, wish I could afford it, now that car wouldn't be a problem for towing
:)

Nice looking Magna there BOosted' BOoya, wish I could afford it, now that car wouldn't be a problem for towing
:)


haha.. you'd be able to two a jumbo jet with this car.. and as for fuel economy - awesome too... recently did a trip to darwin and highway cycle set at 110km/hour netted a 9.81L/100, and 10.8L/100 moving along at 140km/hour :cool:

the VS had the ecotec motor put in them for the first time and these where a massive difference in refinement.
Tiny correction, but given that Ilike3.5 is looking to buy, it should be noted that the ecotec went in the series 2 VS. Not the series 1.

Prior to the ecotec, the engine was quite snappy, but sounded like a motor mower grasping for breath. Kinda reminded me of a dying old man wheezing actually lol :bowrofl:

Tiny correction, but given that Ilike3.5 is looking to buy, it should be noted that the ecotec went in the series 2 VS. Not the series 1.

Prior to the ecotec, the engine was quite snappy, but sounded like a motor mower grasping for breath. Kinda reminded me of a dying old man wheezing actually lol :bowrofl:

All the VS commodores had the ecotec engine from 1995 (VS release year) the previous buick engine was last released in the VR model commodore, the older buick engine had more response at launch but was rough and noisy, the ecotec was softer off launch but was quieter and smoother and had more power, but I still like the 3.5 maggie even if it is front wheel drive and not the best for towing, I have heard however that the magna 3.5 was rated as on par with a V6 holden for towing caravans due to weight distribution and similar torque characteristics, why is it that front wheel drive is not thought to be as good as RWD for towing?
The ecotec is no 6G74 magna engine but it is still surprisingly economical and smooth unless you rev it too high, love them or hate them they do go well to, for a pushrod V6 they have done a very good job.

All the VS commodores had the ecotec engine from 1995 (VS release year) the previous buick engine was last released in the VR model commodore, the older buick engine had more response at launch but was rough and noisy, the ecotec was softer off launch but was quieter and smoother and had more power, but I still like the 3.5 maggie even if it is front wheel drive and not the best for towing, I have heard however that the magna 3.5 was rated as on par with a V6 holden for towing caravans due to weight distribution and similar torque characteristics, why is it that front wheel drive is not thought to be as good as RWD for towing?
The ecotec is no 6G74 magna engine but it is still surprisingly economical and smooth unless you rev it too high, love them or hate them they do go well to, for a pushrod V6 they have done a very good job.

love em or hate em, you have to admit that they also respond bloody well to mods too! throw a turbo at them and they can be rediculously quick, and for a surprisingly low amount of money...

and also your spot on that the ecotec was in the VS from 95. Mark H you are probably thinking of the supercharged version of the V6 which wasnt introduced untill the series 2 update. Either that or your making the common mistake of confusing the VS for the VR (the two look identical, the only difference you can see is the badging, but alot of work went into the VS under the skin, ie engine, gearbox improved, suspension improved, added sound dedening and tailshaft vibrations where reduced)

love em or hate em, you have to admit that they also respond bloody well to mods too! throw a turbo at them and they can be rediculously quick, and for a surprisingly low amount of money...

and also your spot on that the ecotec was in the VS from 95. Mark H you are probably thinking of the supercharged version of the V6 which wasnt introduced untill the series 2 update. Either that or your making the common mistake of confusing the VS for the VR (the two look identical, the only difference you can see is the badging, but alot of work went into the VS under the skin, ie engine, gearbox improved, suspension improved, added sound dedening and tailshaft vibrations where reduced)

I've read of twin turbo 10 and 11 second cars in USA using the same buick engine, the ecotec equivalent is called the buick mk2 or something in the United states, there is a N\A 13 second automatic VN V6 called 'V6 vengeance' i've read about, but i'm not sure what he has done to go that quick without forced induction, maybe it is supercharged and I've got it wrong, but it is a red VN commodore with 'trumpets' sticking out of the bonnet for better cold air intake...I think. Most guys with minor mods are into low 15's some high 14's and they are still 4L60e T700 gearboxes, most of the mods are CAI, roller rockers, high flow cat, K&N panel filter, and throttle body mods, you can even get a twin throttle body for the ecotec but it's expensive, yes the 'briggs and Stratton' commodore V6 certainly responds to mods and very cheaply as well, a budget 6 pack, but still not a 6G74 for refinement.
lol

For all the bagging u guys are doing against the Buick V6, look at the times for the VR and VS commy's and u will find the VR is quicker, even though the Buick really hates to rev, it's got a longer stroker than the Ecotech, ie more down low torque, but the ecotech and much better fuel economy and could maby be said it like to rev (in comparison to the buick). Oh yeah, just to see how fast a Buick commy is Race a Manual VN V6, you'll find there quicker than the SS's of the time, that's why they raced them instead of the V8's, and there lighter aound 1200-1300kg with 127kw 292nm and RWD, there a potent combination, but there mostly ****ed

For all the bagging u guys are doing against the Buick V6, look at the times for the VR and VS commy's and u will find the VR is quicker, even though the Buick really hates to rev, it's got a longer stroker than the Ecotech, ie more down low torque, but the ecotech and much better fuel economy and could maby be said it like to rev (in comparison to the buick). Oh yeah, just to see how fast a Buick commy is Race a Manual VN V6, you'll find there quicker than the SS's of the time, that's why they raced them instead of the V8's, and there lighter aound 1200-1300kg with 127kw 292nm and RWD, there a potent combination, but there mostly ****ed

ok when did they race V6 commodores instead of V8's? :nuts:

and the VN V6 is renowned, even within the commodore crowd, as being an absolute sh!t of an engine. No one liked it. It was never quicker then the VN SS V8 (127kw VS 165kw, and the cars where the isact same weight.. yes i can see how the V6 would be quicker...)

For all the bagging u guys are doing against the Buick V6, look at the times for the VR and VS commy's and u will find the VR is quicker, even though the Buick really hates to rev, it's got a longer stroker than the Ecotech, ie more down low torque, but the ecotech and much better fuel economy and could maby be said it like to rev (in comparison to the buick). Oh yeah, just to see how fast a Buick commy is Race a Manual VN V6, you'll find there quicker than the SS's of the time, that's why they raced them instead of the V8's, and there lighter aound 1200-1300kg with 127kw 292nm and RWD, there a potent combination, but there mostly ****ed
Yeah the VN's are old now and boy were they rough, but I've heard of some stock auto VN, VP and VR's that have held their own against VN 5 litres up to 120km or so, some of them fly, over the first 60 feet the VR would own the VS,the buick can be stroked out to about 4.3 litres I think (that's charger E49 capacity) the Ecotec cannot be (lower deck height), the buick has more hotting up potential than any ecotec. Hey if youv'e got a TH sports I'm jealous!
:rant:

the 4.3L stroker kit your refering to can be fitted to an ecotec.. i am about 90% certain of this...

twin turbo'd, ecotecs fly. To get the same out of a 3.5 magna engine, you have to spend alot more money

look their no BMW engine, but they are quite smooth if you get one in good condition. Im not sure which ecotecs you have driven (if any?) but there is not guarante they where in good condition now is there!

The VS i previously owned was bought off my parents who purchased it new. So i know a little bit of what im talkin about and im here to tell you that there is nothing wrong with the engine in a VS.

Argumentative ****.

VR commodore driven for the first 4 years of it's life, followed by a VT commodore driven for the first 4 years of it's life, followed by a VX commodore still being driven. The VR's still in the family and hauls @ss over the two ecotechs. I know which one I'd prefer to drive. Tell me I don't know as much as you about f*cking buicks vs ecotechs.

:swearing: starting to piss me off.

Argumentative ****.

VR commodore driven for the first 4 years of it's life, followed by a VT commodore driven for the first 4 years of it's life, followed by a VX commodore still being driven. The VR's still in the family and hauls @ss over the two ecotechs. I know which one I'd prefer to drive. Tell me I don't know as much as you about f*cking buicks vs ecotechs.

:swearing: starting to piss me off.

whatever dude, if the VT was so bad, why did you buy a VX? and if you would prefer to drive a VR over a VX.. well.. ok whatever

all i was saying is that their is nothing wrong with the ecotec V6. it seems your just looking for arguments you can pick with me tonight...

argumentitive **** :cool:

they're called work cars, and I don't get a choice.

I'm going to have a beer now. I'll have one for you.

they're called work cars, and I don't get a choice.

I'm going to have a beer now. I'll have one for you.

work cars are fun, nothing else clears speed bumps as quick as work cars, nothing else hits rev limiters with the regularity of work cars. All hail work cars!!!

Argumentative ****.

VR commodore driven for the first 4 years of it's life, followed by a VT commodore driven for the first 4 years of it's life, followed by a VX commodore still being driven. The VR's still in the family and hauls @ss over the two ecotechs. I know which one I'd prefer to drive. Tell me I don't know as much as you about f*cking buicks vs ecotechs.

:swearing: starting to piss me off.

Settle down everyone it is only a discussion and it's turned into a holden argument on a mitsi site which is probably more my fault due to my confusion which is what the thread is all about, I agree with RJL25 the ecotec is a great work car engine and so is the ford intech 4.0. if you can find one which isn't thrashed. I still love gen 3 magnas though. I wonder how long it will be before someone tells us to take our holden discussion to a holden site and get back to talking magnas?
Lets cut the offensive launguage before the site administrator closes the thread
:)

the 4.3L stroker kit your refering to can be fitted to an ecotec.. i am about 90% certain of this...

twin turbo'd, ecotecs fly. To get the same out of a 3.5 magna engine, you have to spend alot more money

On street commodores site in the V6 power forum there is a lot of discussion about the stroker kit for the ecotec and some say that the block is lower than the buick's and won't accommodate the kit, but I also read about shorter conrods or something to overcome this.
Yes twin turbos on an ecotec can = 10-11 seconds if wheelspin can be controlled, this kind of hot up on an ecotec can be achieved quite cheaply for the performance gain, whether or not these '10 second' ecotecs are road registered or not I'm not sure, I'd imagine they have huge tubs at the rear or they'd just spin and go nowhere, so they are probably not road going vehicles. I'd imagine twin turbo ecotecs on the road would be more like 12-13 seconds, but V6 vengeance runs 13's and is a N\A VN commodore.

Just back to the original question.
I have seen the odd TH and TJ for around $10-$11k mark in 3.5l but all are 150k+ kms.
All around 100k kms seem to be minimum $14000.
Not telling what I bought my TH wagon for, but it was 2 yrs ago and its a manual 3.5 (very hard to find a good one) :D
My suggestion is scower the auctions for a cheap one or save up some extra bickies :)

Just back to the original question.
I have seen the odd TH and TJ for around $10-$11k mark in 3.5l but all are 150k+ kms.
All around 100k kms seem to be minimum $14000.
Not telling what I bought my TH wagon for, but it was 2 yrs ago and its a manual 3.5 (very hard to find a good one) :D
My suggestion is scower the auctions for a cheap one or save up some extra bickies :)

Thanks kodos, I may have to spend a bit more, the manual 3.5 are hard to find aren't they.

On street commodores site in the V6 power forum there is a lot of discussion about the stroker kit for the ecotec and some say that the block is lower than the buick's and won't accommodate the kit, but I also read about shorter conrods or something to overcome this.
Yes twin turbos on an ecotec can = 10-11 seconds if wheelspin can be controlled, this kind of hot up on an ecotec can be achieved quite cheaply for the performance gain, whether or not these '10 second' ecotecs are road registered or not I'm not sure, I'd imagine they have huge tubs at the rear or they'd just spin and go nowhere, so they are probably not road going vehicles. I'd imagine twin turbo ecotecs on the road would be more like 12-13 seconds, but V6 vengeance runs 13's and is a N\A VN commodore.

V6 vengeance now has a single turbo setup, i think its into the 12's now, correct me if im wrong. V6 vengeance is 100% street legal, street comodores wont do anything that isnt street legal because their name is STREET commodores, implying commodores for the street, not dedicated cars for the track

V6 vengeance now has a single turbo setup, i think its into the 12's now, correct me if im wrong. V6 vengeance is 100% street legal, street comodores wont do anything that isnt street legal because their name is STREET commodores, implying commodores for the street, not dedicated cars for the track

Good point, it can't be a street car if it can't be driven on the street, V6 vengence may be a single turbo I'm not sure, I think from memory it does have trumpets (6 of them being a 6 cylinder) sticking out of a cut out in the bonnet so I think he has done extensive throttle body and intake manifold mods, it is bloody quick, it is up there with skyline gtr's,wrx's and whatever else, wouldn't it be fun to own a sleeper and drag off some home boy in his modded and heavily hire purchase financed GTR or WRX, it would be even more fun if the sleeper V6 had a missing hubcap and looked like a tradesman's vehicle heap, a wagon or something.

Thanks kodos, I may have to spend a bit more, the manual 3.5 are hard to find aren't they.

Yeah, good ones with reasonably low k's are, let alone colour you want.Took me a while to find mine and had to settle for white which wasn't at the top of my list of colour choices. Paid a bit too much for it but still happy with it. :D

Good point, it can't be a street car if it can't be driven on the street, V6 vengence may be a single turbo I'm not sure, I think from memory it does have trumpets (6 of them being a 6 cylinder) sticking out of a cut out in the bonnet so I think he has done extensive throttle body and intake manifold mods, it is bloody quick, it is up there with skyline gtr's,wrx's and whatever else, wouldn't it be fun to own a sleeper and drag off some home boy in his modded and heavily hire purchase financed GTR or WRX, it would be even more fun if the sleeper V6 had a missing hubcap and looked like a tradesman's vehicle heap, a wagon or something.

yeah it had 3 trumpets sticking out the top, but they proved to be absolutely hopeless lol

he chucked them once he realised that it made less power with it on :P

yeah it had 3 trumpets sticking out the top, but they proved to be absolutely hopeless lol

he chucked them once he realised that it made less power with it on :P

The trumpets must have upset fuel\air ratio mixture or something.

ok when did they race V6 commodores instead of V8's?

and the VN V6 is renowned, even within the commodore crowd, as being an absolute sh!t of an engine. No one liked it. It was never quicker then the VN SS V8 (127kw VS 165kw, and the cars where the isact same weight.. yes i can see how the V6 would be quicker...)


If u look around they raced them in Production Racing, the V6's that is. The V6 was even raced up to 1996 in Production racing. Have u raced againt V8 and V6 VN manuals? I have, I can beat the manual V8 VN's and have never beat a Manual V6 and have raced a fair few. And there is a weight difference between them, there always is with a Cast Iron V8 vs V6, and SS have more stuff in them anyway. Yes the V6 hates being revved over 3000rpm, but it ****s on the V8's. Well again there is my 2 cents worth

ok when did they race V6 commodores instead of V8's?

and the VN V6 is renowned, even within the commodore crowd, as being an absolute sh!t of an engine. No one liked it. It was never quicker then the VN SS V8 (127kw VS 165kw, and the cars where the isact same weight.. yes i can see how the V6 would be quicker...)


If u look around they raced them in Production Racing, the V6's that is. The V6 was even raced up to 1996 in Production racing. Have u raced againt V8 and V6 VN manuals? I have, I can beat the manual V8 VN's and have never beat a Manual V6 and have raced a fair few. And there is a weight difference between them, there always is with a Cast Iron V8 vs V6, and SS have more stuff in them anyway. Yes the V6 hates being revved over 3000rpm, but it ****s on the V8's. Well again there is my 2 cents worth

im assuming your refering to the old "australian production car championship". Only 6cyl commodores and falcons where eligable. Thats why

I havent raced a V6 vs a V8, but i have driven both, the difference is massive. The V8 is far quicker in every way. All i can suggest is that the V8 you raced was driven by someone who was a bit low on talent...

im sorry dude but the series 1 V6 in the VN's where an absolute dog of an engine. The series 2 V6 introduced in the VP, and continued in the VR was an improvement, and then the ecotec was like a brand new engine, which it basically was, new block, new cylinder head, new internals, basically a new engine which is just related to the original motor, a bit like the difference between a gen3 and the new gen4.

im assuming your refering to the old "australian production car championship". Only 6cyl commodores and falcons where eligable. Thats why

I havent raced a V6 vs a V8, but i have driven both, the difference is massive. The V8 is far quicker in every way. All i can suggest is that the V8 you raced was driven by someone who was a bit low on talent...

im sorry dude but the series 1 V6 in the VN's where an absolute dog of an engine. The series 2 V6 introduced in the VP, and continued in the VR was an improvement, and then the ecotec was like a brand new engine, which it basically was, new block, new cylinder head, new internals, basically a new engine which is just related to the original motor, a bit like the difference between a gen3 and the new gen4.

I tried racing a V8 VN auto in my old series 2 auto VN, I kind of kept up until about 80kph, after that the V8 was pulling away (finding it's legs) at such a rate that I was too embarrassed to continue, once out of 1st gear the V6 VN's are pretty well average in performance, my old R31 (4 door Pintara shape) auto 3.0 skyline would have whipped my VN from 85-90 kph to 190 kph+ but the VN would have it at the lights...just, those old R31's fly when in good nick especially on the open road.
A V6 VS auto matched my VN to about 50kph until 2nd gear where it just took off and left me behind. My VX although a bit heavy for off the line stuff gets moving if you want it to but due to the tall 3.08 gearing if you don't give loads in 1st there is not much more play until above 90-100kph where it gets moving again, but I don't advocate excessive speed on public roads, I think a VX or even a VT in spite of the weight issue would be a lot better with a 3.7 final drive but it may use more fuel but perhaps not much more, these heavier VT\X's etc are designed with fuel economy in mind over off the line performance, the fuel economy out of these heavy family sedans is hard to believe, simply outstanding for their weight.
:)

the fuel economy out of these heavy family sedans is hard to believe, simply outstanding for their weight.
:)


before my VS i had a TR magna 4cyl. I got better fuel economy from the commodore. Go figure!

before my VS i had a TR magna 4cyl. I got better fuel economy from the commodore. Go figure!
In the past I have owned mainly 4 cylinder cars and none of them have matched the commodore V6 for economy, especially on the highway, none of them could get from Adelaide to Mt. Gambier on a full 60L tank of fuel ( a Sigma Scorpion 2.6 just did though ) but my VX V6 cruising at the same speed 100kph did Adelaide to Melbourne on a tank of fuel 63L, I went via Mt. Gambier and had approx half a tank left by Mt. Gambier and filled up again in Preston Melbourne.......all true!

i got from brisbane to coffs harbour in my commodore, used 35letres of fuel

i got from brisbane to coffs harbour in my commodore, used 35letres of fuel

In spite of the "olde world" technology (no overhead cams) I think in all of the other areas Holden are right up there, interestingly enough the 'new' Alloytec really does not impress me, the 175kw version really does not seem to go much harder than the Ecotec, in manual 'S' form they are quite similar in times really, an 'S' model manual VX seems to be not far behind the SV6 in acceleration and I think the alloytec uses more fuel to.
I think because of the lack of overhead cams and 24 valves in the ecotec people are mistaken by calling it a 'boat anchor' because in many other areas it may well be as advanced or even better than some of these higher tech engines, I think holden has certain 'clever' secrets in the tuning and inlet manifold, management etc areas which cause the ecotec to work well as long as it is not revved too high which is not necessary if it works well up to 4500-5000rpm with a flattish spread of torque, I think it is easy for most people to be mislead into thinking that the whole engine is old technology based on the single fact that it is OHV rather than OHC. If Holden wanted to design a high revving engine then they would have even the old GTR XU1 torana with a glorified EH engine moved along nicely about 15.6 400m and 8.0 secs to 60 mph or something like that, I don't know that both Ford or Holden's target market really want super high revving engines, if they did then they'd make them.

as the old saying goes, pushrods arent old technology, they have just had 40 years of development. What people forget is that you can get the same performance out of a pushrod motor as you can get from a DOHC motor, the difference is the pushrod motor is a hell of a lot lighter and much more compact. It does have its advantages.

the sceptics among us will suggest that holden deliberately tuned the alloytec to be only as good as the ecotec. People where quite happy to buy the commodore with an ecotec, so by making the alloytec drive the same wasnt going to effect sales. However by doing this, holden could then put the really well tuned version of the alloytec into the next VE commodore, and make it seem like an even bigger step forward because the engine feels soo much better. The alloytec is also in a cadillac motor in the states, its isactly the same motor yet for some mysterious reason, the cadillac version is a hell of alot smoother and easier to rev... interesting...

as the old saying goes, pushrods arent old technology, they have just had 40 years of development. What people forget is that you can get the same performance out of a pushrod motor as you can get from a DOHC motor, the difference is the pushrod motor is a hell of a lot lighter and much more compact. It does have its advantages.

the sceptics among us will suggest that holden deliberately tuned the alloytec to be only as good as the ecotec. People where quite happy to buy the commodore with an ecotec, so by making the alloytec drive the same wasnt going to effect sales. However by doing this, holden could then put the really well tuned version of the alloytec into the next VE commodore, and make it seem like an even bigger step forward because the engine feels soo much better. The alloytec is also in a cadillac motor in the states, its isactly the same motor yet for some mysterious reason, the cadillac version is a hell of alot smoother and easier to rev... interesting...

Do you think Holden have really actually done this?

Is it just me or are you guys also sick of RJL25 crapping on about dunny doors?

Is it just me or are you guy also sick of RJL25 crapping on about dunny doors?


yer, - just hurry up and buy my car!! lol

Yeah, theres too many threads with dunnydore praise, no one really cares...

Glad its not just me, sick of hearing the w*ankers at work crapping on about em all day :nuts:

yeah cos its all just me and Ilike3.5 and a number of other people havent made any mention of it at all :nuts: i dont know what i ever did to you kodos that made you single me out..?

you cant get enough magna praise, but you cant handle praise of another type of car, do me a favour, look up the term narrow minded for me.

i appologise that i say it how i see it in relation to a type of car, and dont think something is crap or worthless just because of the badge on its boot. fkcn badge babies!

dont like it, dont read it. Its not rocket science

no offence RJL25 but everytime theres a tread on commodores you start praising them, i htink your point is taken by many. Its just that some ppl are tired of you praising commodores at every opportunites and this is a magna forum.

no offence RJL25 but everytime theres a tread on commodores you start praising them, i htink your point is taken by many. Its just that some ppl are tired of you praising commodores at every opportunites and this is a magna forum.

i have also knocked holdens as well, i dont like alot of people who modify for them as an example. I HATE VL commodores as another example. Though their gearbox's are strong, they also feel like they are from a peice of earth moving equipment. Build quality on VS commodores are below par, and still not brilliant on VT to current. Steering on them is vague and useless.

Majority of my praise for commodores are directed at their engines, as i personally dont see them as anywhere near as bad as many people say they are. Go read my posts again, they are largely in a discussion style with Ilike3.5. He kept saying stuff, and i kept saying stuff. Thats what a forum was suppose to be is it not?

AND I WASNT ALONE!! Ilike3.5 was praising them just as much as i was! how come no one was on his back about it? Go read my posts again, they are largely in a discussion style with Ilike3.5. He kept saying stuff, and i kept saying stuff. Thats what a forum was suppose to be is it not?

their are some people on this forum who seem to seek out my posts to have a go at me. Those people know who they are, and they are really starting to piss me off. If you think i am annoying now, just wait, i can and will get alot worse if this sorta **** keeps getting directed towards me. and im not the only one who is getting ****ty, the same people who seem to target me appear to be targeting other people as well. This forum use to be great but their is a minority of ****wits who just wanna cause arguments and **** on this forum. It seems people just cant take it when people have different opinions to them. Welcome to the real world fellahs. I appologise for making your virtual internet world a little bit too real for you!

i have also knocked holdens as well, i dont like alot of people who modify for them as an example. I HATE VL commodores as another example. Though their gearbox's are strong, they also feel like they are from a peice of earth moving equipment. Build quality on VS commodores are below par, and still not brilliant on VT to current. Steering on them is vague and useless.

Majority of my praise for commodores are directed at their engines, as i personally dont see them as anywhere near as bad as many people say they are. Go read my posts again, they are largely in a discussion style with Ilike3.5. He kept saying stuff, and i kept saying stuff. Thats what a forum was suppose to be is it not?

AND I WASNT ALONE!! Ilike3.5 was praising them just as much as i was! how come no one was on his back about it? Go read my posts again, they are largely in a discussion style with Ilike3.5. He kept saying stuff, and i kept saying stuff. Thats what a forum was suppose to be is it not?

their are some people on this forum who seem to seek out my posts to have a go at me. Those people know who they are, and they are really starting to piss me off. If you think i am annoying now, just wait, i can and will get alot worse if this sorta **** keeps getting directed towards me. and im not the only one who is getting ****ty, the same people who seem to target me appear to be targeting other people as well. This forum use to be great but their is a minority of ****wits who just wanna cause arguments and **** on this forum. It seems people just cant take it when people have different opinions to them. Welcome to the real world fellahs. Im appologise for making your virtual internet world a little bit too real for you!



Maybe its cause you bite back so well. Like hooking a marlin. :badgrin:

I'm not having a go at you, just comodes.
I think they suck personally and am sick of every bastard, single minded v8 freaks ramming em down my throat all the time.
Yes I am biased mitsu owner and have been for many years but am not narrow minded cause I disagree with you. Holden = good build quality? :nuts: Thats my opinion
I suggest if you dont like us talking about magnas, maybe you shouldnt read those posts, after all this thread title has nothing to do with dunnys.
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh and if you think I'm picking on you thats not my intension. Just enough with the como talk.
btw, im sure no one seeks out your posts, maybe a little paranoia there dude.

Maybe its cause you bite back so well. Like hooking a marlin. :badgrin:

I'm not having a go at you, just comodes.
I think they suck personally and am sick of every bastard, single minded v8 freaks ramming em down my throat all the time.
Yes I am biased mitsu owner and have been for many years but am not narrow minded cause I disagree with you. Holden = good build quality? :nuts: Thats my opinion
I suggest if you dont like us talking about magnas, maybe you shouldnt read those posts, after all this thread title has nothing to do with dunnys.
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh and if you think I'm picking on you thats not my intension. Just enough with the como talk.
btw, im sure no one seeks out your posts, maybe a little paranoia there dude.

dude i like magnas more then commodores, ofcourse i wanna hear about them. im annoyed that you singled me out, when Ilike3.5 has been talking about them just as much :nuts:

and trust me i could post alot of examples of certain people seeking me out. I will not however stoop to that level as these people know who they are. Incase your wondering, no your not one of them :)

Good to hear :D
Yeah sure I can just not read or keep my big jappa shut.
Just I'm sure you can understand, I hear como this and como that all the time and I just get tired of it is all.
I what you say is true about other vandettas against you, you know what they say, ignore it and they willl go away. Keep bitting and it'll just add fuel to the fire. Just some friendly advise.

Good to hear :D
Yeah sure I can just not read or keep my big jappa shut.
Just I'm sure you can understand, I hear como this and como that all the time and I just get tired of it is all.
I what you say is true about other vandettas against you, you know what they say, ignore it and they willl go away. Keep bitting and it'll just add fuel to the fire. Just some friendly advise.

Come on guys, give RJL25 a break, I started this thread and am probably more responsible than RJL25 for it going off on a tangent away from the original thread question, so flame me not him.
The reason the Commodores and to a lesser extent Falcons entered the discussion was due to the question of towing capabilities which will be the main purpose of this vehicle when I buy it, I realise that it started as a thread about TH magna 3.5 wagons and ended up as a discussion between two magna fans who also happen to like and defend the Ecotec V6 in spite of it's lack of overhead cams, this is a forum and it's purpose is mainly for discussion, I apologize if my discussing and praising the ecotec engine (in other areas the commodore does not touch the magna especially in general quality) has offended some forum users.
I also realise that discussing other rival car makes is provocative and accept full responsibility for that, so give RJL25 a break! I am an ex boxer\martial artist and I am always perusing forums with arguments of 'who'd win' comparisons, my favorite argument I've seen was on a forum with a thread of more than 12 pages, the thread question was who'd win in their prime in a fight, Bruce Lee or Mike Tyson, there was heaps of ugly 'anti Asian' racist remarks as well as rude remarks concerning Mr. Lee's small (5' 7" 140 Ibs) stature. For those interested the overall opinion result was Mike Tyson by KO 3rd round boxing rules and Bruce Lee in a street fight no rounds no rules no worries. Now I've deviated away from TH Magna wagons onto a totally unrelated topic, 'Boxing\martial arts' but these discussions no matter where they go are just that...discussions, which is what makes forums such interactive fun in the first place, but in closing I should have kept to the original thread question, it was my fault not RJL25.

thanks man

I tow a 7x5 box trailer a fair bit with my 3.5 manual wagon with no probs except when the trailer is loaded up heaps, braking is a bit of a struggle. You just need to remember your towing a fair weight and brake alot earlier. Why mitsu didnt have larger brakes on the wagons I dont know, but hopefully that wont be as much of a problem soon. :D

As for talking comodes, how about a nice warm cup of stfu!

lol only f*cking with ya's

I tow a 7x5 box trailer a fair bit with my 3.5 manual wagon with no probs except when the trailer is loaded up heaps, braking is a bit of a struggle. You just need to remember your towing a fair weight and brake alot earlier. Why mitsu didnt have larger brakes on the wagons I dont know, but hopefully that wont be as much of a problem soon. :D

As for talking comodes, how about a nice warm cup of stfu!

lol only f*cking with ya's

Mate, I'd be wrapped with a 3.5 manual TH wagon, if I could find one, most are autos.
A manual 3.5 would be a tow car Mon to Fri and a fun car on the weekend.
What weight is your 7 X 5 trailer, does it have a trailer brake? I think most trailers carrying more than 750kg have them standard.

You just gotta keep looking, they're out there somewhere.
I eventually found mine on the carsales website but saw the odd one in the trading post.

i was bloody ****ty when i found out when i bought my TL wagon that, although the sedans come in manual, NO wagons come in manuals and i had to buy an auto. Not hapy jan! especially after i drove a mates TJ manual and found out how much harder the 3.5 goes when its got a manual bolted to it!

i was bloody ****ty when i found out when i bought my TL wagon that, although the sedans come in manual, NO wagons come in manuals and i had to buy an auto. Not hapy jan! especially after i drove a mates TJ manual and found out how much harder the 3.5 goes when its got a manual bolted to it!

You ****** bet they do, and with much more performance potential than an auto, bummer about the TL wagon only being available in auto.

You ****** bet they do, and with much more performance potential than an auto, bummer about the TL wagon only being available in auto.

And the tj. All (stock) tj wagons are autos too. TH was the only model I'm aware of that had the 3.5l manual option in the wagon.
That suits me fine as I like the TH style front the best although TJ's come a close second, especially the VRX. mmmm, VRX :drool:

yeah i like the TH grille better, i actually think the TJ was a big step backwards. Only the VRX looked good. The front of the TL may be ugly, but atleast its modern! same cant be said about the TJ which looks like it was a car built in 96, not 2000 or something

yeah i like the TH grille better, i actually think the TJ was a big step backwards. Only the VRX looked good. The front of the TL may be ugly, but atleast its modern! same cant be said about the TJ which looks like it was a car built in 96, not 2000 or something

Well at first I thought the bonet was a bit stupid but I liked the rear. Slowly as I got used to it, and saw the potential it had with modded and vrx cars. Now I recon its way cool, just not quite as much as the TH, but thats just my opinion. :D

btw, the TL/TW front has grown on me a bit too, but I still think it is a little out of proportion. That style front looks better on the lancer imo.

btw, the TL/TW front has grown on me a bit too, but I still think it is a little out of proportion. That style front looks better on the lancer imo.

your right, it is out of proportion. If the lights where approxomately 3/4 of the size they are, it would probably look fantastic. But alas... what could have been...

I do quite a bit of towing with my TH 3.5 auto and torque is not a prob. She'll sit on 2000 at 100K in OD up hills with 3/4 M (750 + odd KGs) of blue metal rock in the trailer, lukey muffler growling away, god it's a sweet sound :badgrin:. Towed Dingo + accessories no worries.

Traction on an incline from a standing start is a whole other matter it's gently does it or, speedo shows 60 and your not moving :redface: :bowrofl: .

Make sure your ball weight ( oi oi, the ball on the car :shock:) isn't excessive as this makes the front sit up.

With no car in mind the rear wheel drive has better traction by design but the AWD is the best sss by far.

of topic
Kodos I get that crap all day at work too even challenged a ss and he laughed, so told him I wasn't kidding and now he's just not quite sure. And yes he'd sh*t on me, 6 speed Man 5.7l .

I do quite a bit of towing with my TH 3.5 auto and torque is not a prob. She'll sit on 2000 at 100K in OD up hills with 3/4 M (750 + odd KGs) of blue metal rock in the trailer, lukey muffler growling away, god it's a sweet sound :badgrin:. Towed Dingo + accessories no worries.

Traction on an incline from a standing start is a whole other matter it's gently does it or, speedo shows 60 and your not moving :redface: :bowrofl: .

Make sure your ball weight ( oi oi, the ball on the car :shock:) isn't excessive as this makes the front sit up.

With no car in mind the rear wheel drive has better traction by design but the AWD is the best sss by far.

of topic
Kodos I get that crap all day at work too even challenged a ss and he laughed, so told him I wasn't kidding and now he's just not quite sure. And yes he'd sh*t on me, 6 speed Man 5.7l .

Thanks PhilsTH, how would the 3.0 litre cope with a small to medium trailer? Preferably a manual 3.0 TF, the TH 3.5 wagons seem out of my price range, they seem priced within the same range as higher mileage VT wagons and AU falcons.
Don't worry about V8 commodore drivers who over look the brilliance of the 3rd gen magna, take pity on them for their ignorance, if your TH 3.5 was a manual you may be able to cause him some sleepless nights, your fuel bill is a lot less than his if his is a 5.7L. :cool:

You just gotta keep looking, they're out there somewhere.
I eventually found mine on the carsales website but saw the odd one in the trading post.

So do you think if I wait long enough I may find a TH 3.5 wagon in the 8K-9K range? Maybe even a manual? Hope so, because once up into the 10-10.5K mark there are some older VT wagons, fat and slow but roomy and practical (I have 4 kids). But gotta love those TH's.
: :rant:

So do you think if I wait long enough I may find a TH 3.5 wagon in the 8K-9K range? Maybe even a manual? Hope so, because once up into the 10-10.5K mark there are some older VT wagons, fat and slow but roomy and practical (I have 4 kids). But gotta love those TH's.
: :rant:

Well I wouldn't think you'd get one for that price. As I said a ways back most would be around the $12k mark, and being the manuals are a bit harder to find, would probably be on the dearer side, if the seller knows what they got.

Well I wouldn't think you'd get one for that price. As I said a ways back most would be around the $12k mark, and being the manuals are a bit harder to find, would probably be on the dearer side, if the seller knows what they got.

I've seen 2000 and 2001 TJ wagons for between 11 and 12K with high mileage 160K+
Interestingly the TH seems to be the more popular of the two, I actually like the TJ myself.

your right, it is out of proportion. If the lights where approxomately 3/4 of the size they are, it would probably look fantastic. But alas... what could have been...

I was looking at a TL parked at work today, if those headlights were squared off at the top and did not go so far back into the front guards (shaped more like the BA falcons are) they would be a really good looking car, I really like the new grille. what must have they been thinking? The lights do seem out of proportion to the rest of the car which is still somewhat conservative in design.

just saw an updated TW magna down at mitsubishi today while mine was being serviced, the lights are now colour coded (like the VRX) rather then being black, and its a big big improvement. It makes the lights appear to be smaller. I am seriously thinking about buying some colour coded headlights for mine now.

ilike3.5, your right, the grille does look very nice, its easily the best part of the whole makeover. As you said, only the lights are the problem, the rest of it is quite good