Today I took my Ralliart for a play on the Dyno :) . I wanted to get a baseline readout with a stock Ralliart (well, stock by Ralliart standards).

Short answer is: 130 KW at the wheels (printout is below).

For comparison, I took my previous TH Sports to the same Dyno a few months ago. Despite the old TH having a Lukey exhaust, Pacemaker extractors, and K&N panel, it still only managed 109 KW on this dyno, so there's a big jump to the Ralliart. I've put the TH printout in the attachments for comparison.

Of note talking with the guys there, they're yet to see any noticable power difference by fitting a K&N panel. In fact we did a run without any filter at all, and the power was identical to using the standard Mitsu paper filter (the induction roar was awesome without any filter though :badgrin: ). They're also of the opinion that the oiled filter screws-up the MAS after a while anyway and don't recommend them. Food for thought...

nice work,
time to start modding :P

Interesting to know what a stock ralliart pulls!

Just for comparison, I had an auto TF 3.0 with 2.5" catback exhuast, K&N and Unichip and it pulled 109kW atw on a Dyno Dinamics. Ofcourse being a different dyno you would assume this is useless, but looking at your ralliart figure of 130kW this comes to a 28% drivetrain loss.

If yours is a manual, then is equates to my 30% drivetrain loss on my auto TF. Becuase before the Unichip was installed the exhuast and Filter didn't really feel like they made a big difference (this was refected in my pre chip dyno of 98kW) so 140 - 30% = 98kW. So the dynos we both used whould have been close in accuaracy to each other. This would show that without proper tunning, breathing mods don't deliver near their potential. :D

Damn that thing is running rich. It gets in to the high 11:1 range at full load. Even with the slightly higher compression ratio I'd be surprised if you'd be getting into danger territory by leaning it out a bit. I dare say there's a lot more power that could be squeezed out of that thing with a piggy back.

Well its nice to know the VRX is running at Ralliart Status :D

Yeah it looks like yours is running rich, work on a few breathing mods to lean it out and there is bucket loads of power to be made. My VRX jumped from 120kw at the wheels stock to 132kw at the wheels with just pacemaker extractors and the K&N CAI kit.

can i just point something out about the torque, a ralliart wouldn't have 350nm at the motor would it, yet this car got 350atw :O omgwtfbbq torque at the wheels is gear dependant and not worth the paper its printed out on.

they do have a fair bit of grunt std tho, 130 is impressive

a ralliart wouldn't have 350nm at the motor would it

Nearly, actually - 333Nm :D

But you're right.. gearing is a torque multiplier.

can i just point something out about the torque, a ralliart wouldn't have 350nm at the motor would it, yet this car got 350atw :O omgwtfbbq torque at the wheels is gear dependant and not worth the paper its printed out on.

they do have a fair bit of grunt std tho, 130 is impressive

these are all INDICATIONS of what you are "playing with". the only way to get a real engine torque figure is to jam your block on a engine dyno, but ITS A INDICATION!!!!

it gives you some idea what gains you are acheiving!!!

just remember, altho you will never get at real torque figure, you can get comparitive results by using gear 4(on the magna manuals) which runs 1;1 with the engine (yes, it DOSNT take into effect the DIFF ratio) but its just a INDICATION what you have.

i see a local, is that Graham Wests dyno...

Before we did the dyno runs they did a full diagnostic on the air/fuel ratio, oxy sensor etc, and everything checked out. These guys spend their time tuning WRX's and R33s etc and are big with the Greddy tuning, and have have a pretty good knowledge of the good old 6G74 (the "other" Mitsu club in Adelaide uses them for dyno days).

Don't flame me for this, I'm just passing on what these guys were saying when we had a long chat afterwards: From the diagnostic data they took on the Ralliart, they feel that there is little to be gained on changing the air intake (this side of an expensive CAI project), but a larger throttle body and getting around what they felt to be a minor restriction in overall exhaust system may deliver a few more KW, particularly if they could re-map the ECU (Greddy, run it on 98 RON etc).

However, they felt that at best this would only deliver a handful of extra KW, and cost alot of extra $$ for not a big gain. The feeling was that the Ralliart as standard was pretty well sorted and approaching the max n/a power. They have concerns on the long term drivability of a higher-lift cam in this engine (we're talking anything above a Stage 1 cam, if the Ralliart is Stage 0.5).

The general consensus was turbo or supercharging was about the most cost-effective way of going forward from here ("hello...Sprintex...")

As I said, don't flame me! Just passing on their opinions.

As I said, don't flame me! Just passing on their opinions.

They're probably right! On a bang for buck scale $12,000 spent on twin turboing your car will give you more power while retaining drivability than $12,000 spent on N/A mods.. sure you might get the same power (probably won't) but it's going to drive like a pig!

On the other hand, look at TZABOY's car.. maybe $2500-$3000 spent on actual engine mods (intake, exhaust, T/B, chip) and it's pulling 154kW ATW vs your 130kW, so there's potential.

BTW, the comments on the air/fuel ratios before weren't saying your o2 sensor is busted, just that for whatever reason, you're over-fueling. Leaner mixtures equal more power and most N/A cars don't need much more than 12.5:1 at full load to avoid pre-detonation and things of that nature, so just by leaning it up with a piggy back unit you stand to find a few more ponies.

I am not trying to flame you.....but thats garbage what they said. There is a lot more is you can get from a N/a. And turbos are always the best bang for the buck. you start with some basic mods before you do a turbo. Greddy is not a waste of money, it would give you power through out the whole Rpm band. You get headers, intake and then tune it with a greddy you are look at more than just a hand full of power. :D

Yep, point taken. They're pretty keen to get a piggy-back in there - and I'm sure there are always extra KW to be unleashed (it was discussed in comparison to the wholesale jump that say a s/c would deliver).

Nobody there said that changes won't deliver more usable KW - it just comes down to where the money would deliver the biggest outcome.

WHo says N/a cars run like pigs? They are faster.

No seriously, there is nothing wrong with building with better pistons, rods, valves springs, port and polished heads, mild camshaft first. Then boosting it. You'd get more power out of the turbo that way.

WHo says N/a cars run like pigs? They are faster.

I will bow before you if you can turn a 3.5L 6G74 into a 300kW ATW naturally aspirated beast that still idles at 800rpm and doesn't need a high-stall auto box to drive away from a stand still. lol

Anyway, I said drive like a pig, not run like a pig :D

Building an engine for high output N/A is completely different as for turbocharging/supercharging. Higher compression is great for na but bad for forced insuction as are the choice of cam profiles and any extractor work is going to have to be thrown out if turbo and intake will probably need to be changed so I would agree it is probably better to head one way orthe other and stick to it.

NA motor are pigs at idle... i know and so do most of the SA AMC boys when they saw my NA magna...

idle was rough like a lumply V8 (sounded awesome) and yer.. but off the line it was a ***** to launch, 500rpm could be the difference between stall and a sucussful roll. (normal driving)

Ben,
Whilst we are on the topic of N/A power, if I can find some time this week to put together some drawings can I bounce an idea off of you which would incorporate 2x AU TB's but still using a single MAS/MAF sensor... Perhaps you could run my idea past Dallas (once i've drawn it up) to see what he thinks?

Curious, are there any other (better-larger) MAS/MAF units out there that could be used as a replacement to the standard Magna unit?

cheers,
Chris

Ben,
Whilst we are on the topic of N/A power, if I can find some time this week to put together some drawings can I bounce an idea off of you which would incorporate 2x AU TB's but still using a single MAS/MAF sensor... Perhaps you could run my idea past Dallas (once i've drawn it up) to see what he thinks?

Curious, are there any other (better-larger) MAS/MAF units out there that could be used as a replacement to the standard Magna unit?

cheers,
Chris


yes, and yes...

i belive you can upgrade your MAS/MAF unit from a higher flowing vehicle... ill make all the enquiries =)

On the topic of increased flow through the MAS, have a read of this (http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2424/article.html) and this (http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2449/article.html). Since you're probably going to need a new computer anyway with a replacement MAS, it might be worth looking in to :cool:

I was thinking about doing this mod. I was thinking about putting a GM mas into mine sometime in the future. Its a lot less restrictive than what we have. For this you need a GM mas from a junkyard and a translator [MAFT converter]. They make tranalators for 3KGT, and I am thinking the unit would be the same as a Diamanate/Magna. What you guys think?

I talked to Corey about this [psshwhhat] and he said he is sure that the pinout would be the same as Galant. The GM mas would be 3" and the tranalator would cost [around 200]. The tranlator would also have adjustments to control air/fuel ratio like a safc but its not as sophisticated. So as long the pinout is the same then itd work.

I know this not what you guys are talking about but I figured I'd throw this in there.

Z32 airflow meters are what i would recomend. VG30DET is a unbelievable motor.

Z32 airflow meters are what i would recomend. VG30DET is a unbelievable motor.

Are they voltage or frequency based though?

if that was the graham west dyno i got 123 atws in mine and its stock other than 2 3/4 exhaust sytem and lowering......... though i must say even though other magnas dyno'd at the same time in same conditions as me and got around the 110's im thinknig it was a bit of a fluke but maybe the previous owner had done more to the car than i had bargained for

ok this all seems a bit wierd.
i have the dyno sheet of my ralliart when it was new and it got 140kw at the wheels, now with mods its sitting at 154kw at the wheels.
i know all dynos are different but to go from 180kw at the flywheel to 130kw at the rims seems a bit too much of a loss.

meh, i dunno

i know all dynos are different but to go from 180kw at the flywheel to 130kw at the rims seems a bit too much of a loss.

meh, i dunno

yeh i thought that too, especially for a FWD. But then, i really dont take much notice of what dyno's say.

LOL Jamie is your car growing kws I thought you got a 121.7 for your highest run mine was 113.7 for a auto compared to a manual i would think that would be about right the ralliart(auto) that day run a 125 and these were on all done on graham wests dyno same day but i think this is a different dyno to most as i see most being dyno dynamics dynos. :D :D
I think a run down the quarter would be the go I have had two runs but would like to try more (see if i can improve). :D

We should arrange a night at the drags ( its lonely being the only magna racing) on one of the street car nights!!!!! :cool:

ok this all seems a bit wierd.
i have the dyno sheet of my ralliart when it was new and it got 140kw at the wheels, now with mods its sitting at 154kw at the wheels.
i know all dynos are different but to go from 180kw at the flywheel to 130kw at the rims seems a bit too much of a loss.

meh, i dunno

All dynos are different. I tend to think this one is slightly on the conservative side (ie. it would probably also make 140KW at the dyno you went to). I went back to this dyno, simply because I'd had a run on it with my last car and therefore have some point of comparison (and the last car, TH Sports, had a Lukey exhaust, Pacemakers etc and only made 109KW on that dyno).

I thought the average loss atw was around 30% (correct me if I'm wrong), which would put this vehicle slightly over the 180KW at the fly, which is about right.

I thought 30% was for a AWD car.

no its 122.7 or something like that .... so i rounded off = 123 .............i wanna take it out to the drags but i have 2 retreads:( and they aint allowed as far as i know

i took my stock ralliart on the dyno as well and got 125.6 kw

We should arrange a night at the drags ( its lonely being the only magna racing) on one of the street car nights!!!!! :cool:
i will be in on this any time :D

i took my stock ralliart on the dyno as well and got 125.6 kw
its interesting to see different peoples results...i saw a stock TJ sports get more than that. I guess the only way to compare cars is to have a dyno day where everyone is on the same dyno, same conditions on the same day

Hey guys, did brett do your tests??? Did he try differant settings?? We MGEc had there dyno day at Graham Wests we thought the Dyno was reading in our favour not against us, as we saw some huge numbers and a lot of PB's sorry no magnas that day tho.

its interesting to see different peoples results...i saw a stock TJ sports get more than that. I guess the only way to compare cars is to have a dyno day where everyone is on the same dyno, same conditions on the same day


i agree .......... like ive heard of stock vrx's get 130 atws ... and others get way below .... only way to really tell i think is to take it down the 1/4 .......though thats still subjective to wheels spin , driver skill, air and track temp LOL ....

I agree with above.. and others.

These figures are too erratic, with or without mods; a dyno day or 1/4 mile time both would be good comparisons if all done on same day, place etc..

yes, and yes...

i belive you can upgrade your MAS/MAF unit from a higher flowing vehicle... ill make all the enquiries =)


sorry i've been away down south for the long weekend we had here in WA this weekend so no drawings yet, any news on upgrading the MAS/MAF Ben?

sorry i've been away down south for the long weekend we had here in WA this weekend so no drawings yet, any news on upgrading the MAS/MAF Ben?
i know people with lancers and galants upgrade to the magna mas/maf sensor because they are bigger, so i doubt there is a bigger mas/maf sensor out there avaliable. Do mitsubishi FUSo diesel trucks have them? i know they would suck a lot of air in, we could use one of them :bowrofl:

What does it cost for an Ad-hoc dyno test at Graham West ?

$70 all up for multiple runs. Go get yours done - I'd be interested (ask for Brett to do it)

I've not yet put my Ralliart through it's paces on a dyno but attached is a dyno graph of my old ride (TJ Exec / 4-speed Auto) before & after having Pacemakers fitted by Genie Exhaust in Myaree.

131kW with no other mods...

how much torque in lb-ft?

Bah, reading all this makes me want to start modding my car, and I really don't want to want to... damn you people, damn you all! :rant: :sook:

$70 all up for multiple runs. Go get yours done - I'd be interested (ask for Brett to do it)

Mmmm - i'll call him Monday.

So, that's with the stock piping?

correct, the only other thing that was different from stock was a so called "sports" muffler that the dealer says they fitted to it.

That said the muffler looked pretty stock to me, just with a different (larger) tip.