Ok I have been having a think recently about haltech’s new product, and what it achieved on The Ego’s car. Now I know its always been said that the difference between a standard TJ and a VR-X/Sports is JUST the rear muffler change, and therefore a TJ exec with performance muffler will be just as fast and have just as much power as a VR-X. Well in theory anyways.

Then I got thinking about what Adrian from Haltech said in regards to the EGO’s VR-X. Basically that the factory ECU was already quite aggressively tuned, and that because his VR-X was stock, gains were limited (ie, wasn’t a whole lot to change). Now I have always thought 8kW was a huge increase from JUST a muffler. I’m thinking that maybe the VR-X had a unique tune to incorporate its muffler, and perhaps a TJ Exec does not have such an aggressively tuned ECU like the VR-X does? And therefore with just a muffler swap, the full extra 8kW will not gained on top of the Execs 155kW. In other words, a Haltech would be even more worthwhile for owners of Execs, because it would then be able to be tuned to the same level as a VR-X. I would also assume that this would mean that owners of TE-TH’s with muffler swaps would see more benefits too.

I started thinking about this cos I realized that the quickest times at the drags are always made by either Sports or VR-X’s (ralliarts excluded). This could just be that it is these models that are more often raced, I dunno. It all makes sense to me though.

kinda makes sense.....

although $1000+ (not sure how much a haltech is worht) dollars for 8kw aint exactly 'More Bang for ya Buck"

however it does open up a new avenue for further modifications i.e Turbo, supercharger, or further N/A tuning.

One thing I have noticed about the VRX is I think it has a baffled fuel tank, I used to noticed when cornering in my TE on a 1/4 - Empty tank I used to get bad fuel surge. I have yet to get fuel surge when cornering the VRX even when running on fumes! Its great.

The VRX also has a quick close ratio gearbox which makes accelleration more fun :D I just need the LSD from the ralliart and id be one very happy man.

Have you ever looked at a tri-flow muffler. They are hideously restricitive, there really could be an 8kW restriction there especially at high revs where it really strangles the engine. This idea could be determined by comparing part numbers on ecu's e.g. exec vs sports/vrx.

More in line with Samurai's point sorry but, If I did another Magna up all over again i wouldn't have any chip installed unless I was definitely going down the track of fitting a turbo, S/C or a worked engine (which I haven't ruled out)

Having installed the GReddy EManage at an approximate cost all up of $1200 for just under 9kw gains... that works out to around $130 per kw which is just not justifiable IMO. 9kw isn't that much really, not for a major component upgrade at a high price anyway.

Ok my install was done badly, and it needs a professional to look at it again, maybe then my opinion might differ. But unless you're going the whole hog in my verdict is that it's not worth it.

I am not trying to discredit the Haltech brand as I am not familiar with it, I am commenting on the EManage... just want to dispell the notion that it is a kick ass mod.

Stop theorizing, dude. My head is spinning.

There's always gains to be had and the nature of production models is that each car will vary slightly and when you look at the whole pack, they will vary heaps. Ego's car might be at the good end or bad end of a factory state of tune. I don't know but I'd hope it was at the good end as it's indicitive of the gains that people could see. Just note that his result is typical of what Unichip's give so that's not an unrealistic expectation.

I've also been told that the 3.0 has it's timing more advanced that the 3.5 so the 3.0 might not gain as much but until someone tries it, who knows.

And stop thinking about peak power. Who spends thair entire driving life in the 5000-6000 rpm range? It's the area under the curve you should care about. If I saw 2kW gain at peak and 22kw gain at 3500rpm, I'd be over the moon and not tell anyone what EMS i used.

kinda makes sense.....
although $1000+ (not sure how much a haltech is worht) dollars for 8kw aint exactly 'More Bang for ya Buck"


Ok theorising again....

standard exec 155kW. lets say my theory is correct so just a muffler swap doesnt make 163kW, lets say 159kW. Ego's car made 6kW atw, so whats that 8kW at the engine, giving 171kW total. Therefore a haltech for a TJ exec with muffler swap would make an extra 12kW, a greater gain than the already well tuned VR-X.

theory[/]

but yes Hyper, at $100 or more per kW, it is expensive, but thats N/A for you

Its not just the muffler that gives the Sports/VRX an 8Kw gain. Its the combination of the free flow exhaust and different camshaft profile that retards inlet valve timing and advances exhaust valve timing.

Its not just the muffler that gives the Sports/VRX an 8Kw gain. Its the combination of the free flow exhaust and different camshaft profile that retards inlet valve timing and advances exhaust valve timing.
For the TJ series 1's that is correct. From series 2 onwards they had the same cams. There's even a 1.5 in there somewhere. The 3.5 came in various tunes. 147, 150, 152 or 152, and now 155. The 155 is in the Exec and the muffler allows 163. I saw an 11HP increase from my muffler. That's about 8kW and that's on the 3.0l engine.

And stop thinking about peak power. Who spends thair entire driving life in the 5000-6000 rpm range? It's the area under the curve you should care about. If I saw 2kW gain at peak and 22kw gain at 3500rpm, I'd be over the moon and not tell anyone what EMS i used.

Im only using peak power for comparisons sake. What impressed me about The Ego's dyno was that there seemed to be gains accross the whole rev band. And therefore, making comparisons by quoting peak power is valid in this case IMO.

For the TJ series 1's that is correct. From series 2 onwards they had the same cams. There's even a 1.5 in there somewhere. The 3.5 came in various tunes. 147, 150, 152 or 152, and now 155. The 155 is in the Exec and the muffler allows 163. I saw an 11HP increase from my muffler. That's about 8kW and that's on the 3.0l engine.

Yes, you're right. Its the Ralliart cams that have the 10% lift or something..

Im only using peak power for comparisons sake.
Yes, I wasn't referring to you. Lots of people talk about the $/kW rate but it's a narrow minded approach. Sure, you wouldn't pay $1000 for a stainless steel muffler that gives 2kW gain from 4500rpm to 6000rpm but that's not the nature of these mods.


What impressed me about The Ego's dyno was that there seemed to be gains accross the whole rev band.
Yes, it's a good result. You know, Revelstone2 saw a similar result with his Unichip and plenty of people were quick to say that 6kW wasn't much for $1200. His chart will be similar to what Ego's displays and that's what most of the systems will give and what they've been developed for. He said that the graph didn't explain what he felt in terms of an increase in drivability but no one listened to him.


Yes, you're right. Its the Ralliart cams that have the 10% lift or something..
Well, yeah. The Ralliart cams do have the increase in lift but when the 3.5's first came out, I suspect they still used the 3.0 cam specs. They then optimised them several times over series 1 and 1.5.

one VERY important point you all seem to be missing.

adding a ecu to a what would be considered as a stock car is a waste of time full stop.

these chips really start showing their worth when adding other mods such as porting polishing and the usual intake and exahust.

lets think of two ways of getting power. *go into daydream land now and imagine*

*story one*
benny has a stock te exec.. he wants power.. he has a stock system and has heard the ralliart has different chip, but doesnt know of any other of its changes.. he puts in a new chip and is unsatisified with the 8kw gain he got :( he's not happy, and thinks 1000$+ was a waste of time...
-in the particular story, UNLESS he has plans for other upgrades, i wouldnt add a ecu either.

*story two*
benny has one hell of a te exec.. exhaust, intake, ported polished heads and a full mandrel bent system has already been done. he's only seen a 20kw gain total over stock, and is keen on upping the compression and removing what in this case, could be the bottle neck in this car - its OEM ECU. Benny puts a new haltech unit in, and a good few hours on the rollers, and manages to gain, a further 30kw from its last dyno graph. THis was done because the eCU can now work with the whole "aftermarket" components of the system...
-this time we saw gains because your adjusting for what modifications you have.

guys, in all seriousness, 8kw from a stock ecu might be rat****... but maybe have a look at it from this prospective; *this is all theory, and may not reflect true values*

stock 3.5 = 155kw
3.5 stock + pacemakers + muffler = 161kw (OE ecu)
3.5 stock + pacmakers + muffler = 169kw (tuned to work with mods)

stock 3.5 = 155kw
3.5 stock + pod, extractors, muffler and a larger t/b = 168kw (running closed loop OE ecu)
3.5 stock + pod, extractors, muffler and larger t/b = 175kw (running a tuned setup to the modifiations done)

meh - if you can decypher it .. good on your.. my fingers are tired lol

Yes your right 1000+ for a piggyback ecu may be expensive considering you may only gain 8-10kw but in my opinion its well worth it. Its not going to be worthwhile on a stock car generally, and especially in the case of our magna's, the factory ECU isn't tuned too badly, while a little rich it isn't too bad.

ECU modifications are most beneficial, as Booya mentioned when you have a few modifications under your belt and the stock ecu may be finding it hard work this mods effectively.

Notice Adrian from Haltech mentioned that the biggest improvement when they tuned The Ego's car was driveability, not so much top end power. As Adrian described it felt like a new car.

Im fitting and emanage for a number of reasons, to tune my VRX to my current modifications (K&N CAI, Pacemakers, New Exhaust) & tune to BP Ultimate (RON98). If I pick up 10kw I will be more than happy :D

I will also be installing a Dry NOS kit probobly around a 60hp shot shortly, with the emanage I can run two maps, one for regular drivivng and the other a rich map for when im on NOS to ensure my engine isn't being damaged and at least the greddy emanage will be in place when Im ready to turbocharge / supercharge it.

Ben, i havent said that the 6kW gain that The Ego's car saw was crap. I fully understood that given his car was stock thats a pretty decent result. When I said it was an expensive way to gain power i meant from a stock car point of view, but of course other mods are needed to bring out the most of a new ecu, and when talking serious n/a mods, thats when it does get expensive.

One thing i think you all missed in regards to the Sports/VR-X 163kw motor over an exec is if i remember corectly, that motor has roller rockers. as well as different exhast and exhaust manifod, and different ecu programing to suit as you mentioned earlier

One thing i think you all missed in regards to the Sports/VR-X 163kw motor over an exec is if i remember corectly, that motor has roller rockers. as well as different exhast and exhaust manifod, and different ecu programing to suit as you mentioned earlier

I'm fairly sure you're wrong. The Sports/VR-X certainly doesn't have a different exhaust manifold to the lower models, and as for a different exhaust, it has a different rear muffler to the exec, but the remainder of the piping is the same.

The Ralliart has a different exhaust manifold. But even it has the same muffler as the VR-X if I'm not mistaken. It also has hotter cams and a very mild dose of head work. Whether it has roller rockers or not I haven't got a clue. :D

nah, pretty sure the roller rockets are same all the way from the 3.0L through the 3.5L

Ok theorising again....
Ego's car made 6kW atw, so whats that 8kW at the engine, giving 171kW total.

If you gain 6 kw at the wheels you gain 6kw at the engine, your gearbox, diff and driveline draw x power - it doesn't matter how much extra torque you force through it, the first change in loss will occur when something breaks from excessive force.

Car = 130 kw, has 20kw loss for 110 at the wheels
owner modifies the car to gain some more horses
car now has 140kw with 20kw loss and 120kw at the wheels.

I can post dyno sheets showing these in practice if anyones interested, but your driveline won't change it's power loss except minutely as temperatures change. The only real change to wheel loss can occur in your tyres themselves eg: if your sidewall wasn't flexing to it's maximum on the dyno first run and you increase power output therefore loading the tyres more you might get a higher loss reading, by and large though tyres cop an absolute beating on the dyno and are nearly always at maximum flex when under load.

Matthius

one VERY important point you all seem to be missing.

adding a ecu to a what would be considered as a stock car is a waste of time full stop.



Simply put, a new ECU enables you to get the most out of your other mods, but doesn't achieve much by itself.

Z

I've just checked the service manual, it seems there was a cam profile change from the first lot of 6G74's (TH) to the second lot made (TJ+) as we all know. However there doesn't seem to be any cam profile changes made within the TJ range, the different power output in the various series would be due to the better tune in the ECU.

So in fact, the power differences between the TJ Sport/VRX models compared to the standard models would be because of the exhaust and possibly a different ECU tune. There doesn't seem to be any changes in other areas as some have said, ie. the headers (Headers are the same).

Car = 130 kw, has 20kw loss for 110 at the wheels
owner modifies the car to gain some more horses
car now has 140kw with 20kw loss and 120kw at the wheels.


Really? I always thought it was some kind of ratio.. like the gear box would convert xx% of its input kinetic energy to heat/sound/deformation or whatever.. :confused: Learn something new every day :cool: usually..

I've just checked the service manual, it seems there was a cam profile change from the first lot of 6G74's (TH) to the second lot made (TJ+) as we all know. However there doesn't seem to be any cam profile changes made within the TJ range, the different power output in the various series would be due to the better tune in the ECU.
That's right. It appeared that Mitsu changed the cams then revised the ECU later on on the base but did cam and ECU from the start for the VR-X.

Really? I always thought it was some kind of ratio.. like the gear box would convert xx% of its input kinetic energy to heat/sound/deformation or whatever.. :confused: Learn something new every day :cool: usually..

yeh, i just always thought that a percentage loss occured, and that was always the case, no matter how much power it had
:confused: