my car is having the Greddy E-Management System done tonight, needs to be done at night for some reason. The system is already installed with the ignition and injection harnesses. Picking it up tomorrow and it will come with dyno sheets. I probably will put up the results on thursday/friday.
Keeping my fingers crossed, also Booya what the go on your install at present? Is it done yet or what?

Good luck mate - fingers crossed you feel the difference!!

Manual

Let me just say
VERY IMPRESSED
unfortunatly i have been unable to give it a real test yet due to work and uni but i can definatly feel the difference.

I have a dyno print out that I will hopefully scan in 2morrow and find a way to put it up but yeah my Magna is FAST!!


Summary 140kw at the wheels (187.5hp), remember my car is also an auto and this was done with premium unleaded fuel.


I don't really understand the torgue though, hopefully someone can help me with this.
Torque Slave Nm before Greddy: 1215.3
Torque Slave Nm after Greddy: 1289.1

Is someone able to let me know if these torque figures are good?


Yeah so hopefully i can put up more info 2morrow

What other mods u got done dude?

K&N ram pod air filter
lukey muffler
pacemaker extractors

not very much really
why?

just curious as to what else was done

140kW at the wheels? man, thats insane. Well done.

Yeah, some of us are headed in your direction so we're trying to sus out realistic expectations from modifications. Whilest power is the bragging rights that people use in the pub, torque is the interesting figure. I'd hope to get a torque print from our dyno day but I'm not complaining that we didn't. Tractive effort is what they'll be talking about. RaymondC or ca18escort will be able to explain the maths better. Sounds like about a 8% increase in torque. Not too bad I guess.

Torque will give you drivability and throttle response, but power is where accelleration comes from.

There has been alot of discusion on Power vs Torque. But for quick acceleration you need bothe.

Picture riding a mt. bike uphill in 5th gear, you will need more torque(strength from your legs) to get up the hill as the peddles are moving slowlly,

but if you where in 1st gear you would need less strenght as the peddles are easier to turn but you would need more power and revs.

So the more torque you have, the faster you will get the car off the line and moving, and the more power you have the quicker it will keep moving.

Anyone agree or dis-agree?

power is where accelleration comes from.

That's not strictly true. There's a saying 'Torque get's you going, power keeps you going.'. Torque is the ability to pull. The more torque, the more you can pull and the harder you can accelerate. Power is a function of work over time and torque is work. At our dyno day recently, my car pulled the highest amout of power, (just). It's a 3l Magna. If we sat it next to TBuTchers car or philtrids car, it would run a close second in a quarter mile run. The 3.5l engines have 20% more torque and it would show.

and another good example is if you have two cars.

Bothe are auto RWD. One is a 5.0L V8 and the other is a 2.0 I4.
They bothe produce 150kw.

The V8 will rip a burnout buy just hitting the brakes and stepping on the gas. this is because it has enough torque to spin the wheels without needing to rev out for more power.

But the 2.0L will need to rev out in nutral and then dump it in drive to start ripping a burnout, this is because it needs to rev to get enough POWER to spin the wheels.

ok i've said enough, sorry for boring anyone :)

ok i've said enough, sorry for boring anyone

That's not boring, that's a good practical example. I think I might nip out and test this theory!

ok i've said enough, sorry for boring anyone


NO WAY! that was bloody brillant!! more more!! 8)

see, even i learnt something ;)

Hi,
I would be very interested to know what sort of power it made before the tuning. What additional stuff did you get with the E-Manage, for example did you get the Windows software to unlock the other options such as the 16x16 air correction maps or the addition ignition module or did you just use the 5 rpm settings? What was the cost of the thing installed and tuned. From what I can tell it is a very good option because it allows you to use it like the Apexi S-AFC initially and then basically upgrade it to something quite like a full engine management solution it also has add on touch sceens that can be added to sure as a real time display.

Cheers
paul

Here's something nice to summarise.. nicked from autospeed.com

[quote:d062709756]So power is the critical determining factor for maximum acceleration, and torque is necessary for driveability. This can quite clearly be seen in looking at the types of engines used for certain applications. Trucks and industrial vehicles use engines with large amounts of torque with a fairly flat torque curve, but relatively little power. Racing and sporting vehicles use high revving engines, with high power and relatively little torque in comparison to their power outputs. That is why you have F1 having engines revving to over 18000 rpm. And there's no use doing that if to maximise acceleration all you needed to do was maximise the amount of torque you had![/quote:d062709756]

I guess what's more important than the height of the torque curve is the length and position of the torque curve which will determine how much and where you have your power.

Actually phonic, the inability to pedal as fast in 5th as you do in 1st gear comes from a lack of power - the low gearing magnifies the torque.. another quote :)

[quote:d062709756]An interesting example - by appropriate gearing, you can get a human being to generate a lot of torque at the driven wheels at extremely low (like about 1 km/h!) speeds. The ability to hold this torque at higher revs is power, and the fact that a human being does not generate much power is the reason that a human-powered vehicle are not able to accelerate quickly at any but the very lowest speeds.[/quote:d062709756]

From a straight-line performance point of view I'm more impressed that his peak power went up around 16% :) (assuming ~ 120kW before) And any which way you look at it, that's not bad from just a tune.

But I'll defer to the physicists for the technicalities..

Hmmm... I don't think F1 engines are a good example. They have many cylinders, have small capacity's per cylinder and use light weight components. They have to rev high to do anything cause their internals have no momentum.

You're right about the torque curve. Numbers and up being for bragging rights but don't tell the whole story. Whether a curve is good or not comes down to the shape, range and location over the rev range. These factors tell a better story that numbers alone.

Guys,
The thing that you need to remember is that torque and power are related by a fixed ratio with regards to RPM. I can't recall the equation of the top of my head but I think it is something like


HP= Torque* RPM
----------------
5252

The reason that F1 engines make heaps of power it because the torque curve is very high in the rev range.

Cheers
Paul

Another interesting reason that F1 cars are made the way they are...

One of the limiting factors within an engine is that you don't want the piston to break the speed of sound (basically, if you do, you get horrible vibrations and most engines will rattle themselves to bits) so this means if you are going to rev hard (as is 16k) you need to have a very very very short stroke.

The piston is stationary at top dead center, accellerates, then back to 0 at the bottom, so if you have a long stroke, and reving really high, that piston is going *** quick.

This is why F1 cars are (typically )V12's - each piston is tiny (small stroke and bore) so they don't pass the speed of sound.

P.S. I love F1 mechanicals, I can read about them all day.
(My brother just graduated Areospace Engineering, so he basically studyed things like this for 4 years - damn cool to talk to him about it all)

-Dan

[quote:201ab18f2b]This is why F1 cars are (typically )V12's - each piston is tiny (small stroke and bore) so they don't pass the speed of sound.[/quote:201ab18f2b]

hmmm.. which race cars have that V10 variant then?? :?

i though the F1's were 10 cylinder??

oh well, you know your F1's so id imagine your right :D

HP= Torque* RPM
----------------
5252


Of course that is for Torque in ftlbs rather than Nm. The metric equation is

kW = Nm * RPM
----------------
9549

Hi Phonic

You have just used my std explanation for torque :) . Very descriptive talk.
I'd add, that big torque gives you smooth driving with lower revs, where as hi power is mainly achieved by hi revs - generally. I personally prefer more torque than power. Hi torque figures come with bigger engines - difficult to get torque out of a puny 2 liter pot, more kWs yes, but not torque. Unless you have a turbo, of course.
But they are funny stuff these kW and Nm. You do need'em both to get going, difficult to simply put them in to separate buckets and say, this is this and that is that.
BTW, those torque readings - thousand something??? I thought we had torque readings around 300 Nm???? Could some one explain what units are those? :?:




There has been alot of discusion on Power vs Torque. But for quick acceleration you need bothe.

Picture riding a mt. bike uphill in 5th gear, you will need more torque(strength from your legs) to get up the hill as the peddles are moving slowlly,

but if you where in 1st gear you would need less strenght as the peddles are easier to turn but you would need more power and revs.

So the more torque you have, the faster you will get the car off the line and moving, and the more power you have the quicker it will keep moving.

Anyone agree or dis-agree?

Sorry - F1 engine is 3000 cc V 10..... ;) Some 850 - 900 Bhp @ 19000 RPM, or less if Minardi...
No big deal about that, but you're right about piston speeds. At some stage physics laws apply and pistons go walkabout if their speed is too high. Sad sight. :cry:



Another interesting reason that F1 cars are made the way they are...

One of the limiting factors within an engine is that you don't want the piston to break the speed of sound (basically, if you do, you get horrible vibrations and most engines will rattle themselves to bits) so this means if you are going to rev hard (as is 16k) you need to have a very very very short stroke.

The piston is stationary at top dead center, accellerates, then back to 0 at the bottom, so if you have a long stroke, and reving really high, that piston is going *** quick.

This is why F1 cars are (typically )V12's - each piston is tiny (small stroke and bore) so they don't pass the speed of sound.

P.S. I love F1 mechanicals, I can read about them all day.
(My brother just graduated Areospace Engineering, so he basically studyed things like this for 4 years - damn cool to talk to him about it all)

-Dan

BTW, those torque readings - thousand something??? I thought we had torque readings around 300 Nm???? Could some one explain what units are those? :?:


Those torque readings is torque at the wheels, not the engine. That torque value has been multiplied by the gearing.

[quote:ec88a1eefa="Killer"]BTW, those torque readings - thousand something??? I thought we had torque readings around 300 Nm???? Could some one explain what units are those? :?:


Those torque readings is torque at the wheels, not the engine. That torque value has been multiplied by the gearing.[/quote:ec88a1eefa]

spot on! now all we need is raymond or paul to work it out for us, as they need the practice, hehe

Yeah, and Raymond. Were you involved with the SAE effort by your uni down there?

Al,
The easiest way to get a Torque curve from you dyno printout is to do up a simple spreadsheet that will conver the speed to RPM and then using the equations above work out what the torque will be. Cookie, if you can tell me what rpm you are doing in 3rd at say 80 km/h and Haydn I think the autos were done in 2nd I have allready got your HP figure in the spreadsheet so I will be able to do a comparison.

Cheers
Paul

For sure, I'll let you know tonight. I think it's around the 4000 mark.

okay here is the dyno sheet, i hope that i can upload it, never done it before, i also hope that the quality is acceptable
just let me know if it is not working

It didn't work, make sure that you click on the add attachment button.

Cheers
Paul

P.S. Any idea on the other questions I asked:

Cost

Configuration, Do you have the additional Support software and/or the ignition add on or are you just using the 5 pre set rpm adjustments.

Initial HP Figures

i updated it, i think it works now
i purchased the ignition and injection harnesses too. I didn't have to buy the windows software becuase the place that did it for me already had the software so they just used their copy.
Cost $920 for main unit, injection harness and ignition harness
$200 to install the main unit, injection harness and ignitin harness (all wiring included in this price)
$175 for dyno tuning
Total cost
$1295 i suppose that isn't too bad


I think that the dyno sheet should answer most questions though

Just looking at the dyno graph you only really got around 5-6% increase in power over the rev range which for the $1200 is allright. I guess you can't tell the drivability on a dyno graph though.

Cheers
Paul

Yes. the Autos where done in 2nd.

The pic of the Dyno chart is a bit hard to read...
Maybe you can email someone a beter quality one and they can host it for you... :) I would but Im FULL on my page atm. :(
Haydn

i was also wondering about this high torque figure, is there anyway to convert is back to the values that everyone is familiar with?