A big "YO!" to my AWD brothers and sisters.

I've just begun making a set of headers to suit the AWD TJ and TL Magnas. Mandrell bending is hurting the price at the moment so I need to get some negotiating muscle to go back to the Mandrel Dude. These machines cost $500,000 and up for a cheapie (f*ck me!) and the guy knows he has to make his money - but we'll see :boxing:

The primaries will be 1.5/8" and are 700mm long into a 2" collector. I will be doing my absolute darndest to make these true EQUAL length primaries for maximum velocity and scavenging effort. This will be made entirely of 304 stainless steel. Marine grade 316 can be done too but that's VERY dear and will outlive the rest of the car....

If folks are keen please register some interest here or by PM. I understand that your interest is "interest only" and no obligation is implied :cool:

Interesting to see how many AWD's are actually on list too.

I'm trying to keep the price in the $400 range + fitting. :thumbsup:

Before you all ask I will no doubt end up getting dragged into doing FWD ones too. ;)


UPDATE April 28th

Stainless steel will no longer be used. The exhaust note on vehicles I've looked this week was deadset sh!t. Very tinny and hollow. I want a deep growl and I believe that's what other people want too.

So the extractors you develop for the AWD will also be suitable for FWD vehichles??? or you will be developing seperate FWD/AWD designs??

If they're mendrel bent, suit a FWD vehicle and are in the $400 (give or take a few dozen) price bracket then I'll be interested. I'll be looking at upgrading pretty soon, but I'll be keeping an eye on developments either way.

Do Pacemaker/RPW/whoever not make ones to suit the AWD, or do you just want to make better ones? :)

So the extractors you develop for the AWD will also be suitable for FWD vehichles??? or you will be developing seperate FWD/AWD designs??

If they're mendrel bent, suit a FWD vehicle and are in the $400 (give or take a few dozen) price bracket then I'll be interested. I'll be looking at upgrading pretty soon, but I'll be keeping an eye on developments either way.

Sure mandrel give a great bend without deformation, I'm still going to look at press bending some pipe just to see what distortion exists also try thicker walled under press. More research on press bending needed :think:

There are 3 main vehicle variants:

1) 3L auto and manual
2) 3.5L auto and manual
3) 3.5 AWD

Most of the pipework can probably be retained across platforms. The AWD is complicated by very limited underbody space around the rear bank. The 3L aren't as tall (motor/head height) as the 3.5L motors, so need to ensure safe road clearance.

My priority is the AWD at present as there aren't any viable options for us guys. Thanks.

Do Pacemaker/RPW/whoever not make ones to suit the AWD, or do you just want to make better ones? :)

Bingo :2cool:

good stuff Ian, all the best with it! :D

i'm keen to watch your progress and results even though i just bought some pacemakers, i wasn't willing to pay $600+ for customs :doubt:

Interest +1

intrest +1

Interest + 1.

Problems:
Only had the TL AWD 2 months and want to know the warrantee, insurance considerations?
Convincing the other half that will "assist" fuel economy :D

Really basic problems:
Really, REALLY heavy car!!
Automatic

AWD is awesome :P

I have seen the difference between a press bend and mandrel bend. Go with mandrel bend unless you wanna loose hp.

I have seen the difference between a press bend and mandrel bend. Go with mandrel bend unless you wanna loose hp.

Interest + 1.

Problems:
Only had the TL AWD 2 months and want to know the warrantee, insurance considerations?
Convincing the other half that will "assist" fuel economy :D

Really basic problems:
Really, REALLY heavy car!!
Automatic

AWD is awesome :P


Check with MMAL or your local dealer. They have to be able to prove that the mod contributed directly/caused the resulting failure. We have new rights as consumers ;)

Sure it's a really heavy car. I got away from a SV6 190kw commodore at Edgeworth yesterday morning at 140kph. Talk about your pis*ed off holden drivers :lol: :lol:

Fingers crossed the design is very similar and can be transferred over to a fwd 3.5L setup. It would be great to have a affordable and well designed (hopefully with dyno results etc to back it up) extractors available. Of big importance though would be clearance from the ground. I saw the hell killer (and recently bain with the pacemakers) went through with his rpw set scraping on absolutely everything and my car actually sits lower than his.

Fingers crossed the design is very similar and can be transferred over to a fwd 3.5L setup. It would be great to have a affordable and well designed (hopefully with dyno results etc to back it up) extractors available. Of big importance though would be clearance from the ground. I saw the hell killer (and recently bain with the pacemakers) went through with his rpw set scraping on absolutely everything and my car actually sits lower than his.

My wire patterns sat no lower than stock piping just used the space better to achieve longer runs and equal lengths before the collector. This saw 700mm primary pipes achievable in this template.

I'm back in negotiations with purchasing a muffler centre so this will make things a hell of lot easy. Things like: "hoists" and "pipe cutters" etc are very handy indeed. :thumbsup:

My wire patterns sat no lower than stock piping just used the space better to achieve longer runs and equal lengths before the collector. This saw 700mm primary pipes achievable in this template.

I'm back in negotiations with purchasing a muffler centre so this will make things a hell of lot easy. Things like: "hoists" and "pipe cutters" etc are very handy indeed. :thumbsup:

looks like I'm stalking you tonight off to bed after this post got a server to repair all tomorrow :(

great to hear about the height being the same as stock, the question is how physically different is the awd setup to a fwd 3.5l setup and do you think it will be easy to transfer your research and design over?

either way great to see someone else making the effort to give us magna owners a few more options.

looks like I'm stalking you tonight off to bed after this post got a server to repair all tomorrow :(

great to hear about the height being the same as stock, the question is how physically different is the awd setup to a fwd 3.5l setup and do you think it will be easy to transfer your research and design over?

either way great to see someone else making the effort to give us magna owners a few more options.

I haven't crawled under a 3.5fwd, I do own a 3L man fwd though. I'm sure someone can spare their car for a day or two in the name of science...

My wire patterns sat no lower than stock piping just used the space better to achieve longer runs and equal lengths before the collector. This saw 700mm primary pipes achievable in this template.

I'm back in negotiations with purchasing a muffler centre so this will make things a hell of lot easy. Things like: "hoists" and "pipe cutters" etc are very handy indeed. :thumbsup:

You buying a muffler centre, i think rpw headers mite be cheper then a whole muffler shop hehehe. U know ill be buying a set of ya headers when ya make sum for me 3litre.

You buying a muffler centre, i think rpw headers mite be cheper then a whole muffler shop hehehe.

You know I don't do anything by halves or take short cuts :lol:



U know ill be buying a set of ya headers when ya make sum for me 3litre.

I'll run up a set (like it takes 5seconds :doubt:) for my TF after I've done the AWD ones, and dyno before and after for all the powerheads out there.

The TF will probably get a slippery and a turbo early next year if I don't sell it first. I know plenty of people will sign up for it once it's turbo'd :)

I haven't crawled under a 3.5fwd, I do own a 3L man fwd though. I'm sure someone can spare their car for a day or two in the name of science...

If you want to come over to my house you can spend all the time underneath it you want. ;)

If you want to come over to my house you can spend all the time underneath it you want. ;)

You're on! I'll have a bow-peep tomorrow arvo at 3pm anyways ;) Hope you can't get any sleep tonight because you're too excited :lol:

You're on! I'll have a bow-peep tomorrow arvo at 3pm anyways ;) Hope you can't get any sleep tonight because you're too excited :lol:

haha slept like a baby :D but tonight might be different after I put a few miles on the new TB. :cool:

count me in if they come in @ around $400

Brett

Count me in also at around $400.

Gerry

CHANGE OF PLAN

I am not going to use stainless for the headers. I have listened to a few stainless headers and full systems on falcadoors during the week and am NOT IMPRESSED with the exhaust note. The stainless make it sound very 'tinny' and you can hear the pulses in the headers.

Kind of like a tuning fork one owner explained to me. Back to old mild steel then hey.

HPC anyone? :D

Sure mandrel give a great bend without deformation, I'm still going to look at press bending some pipe just to see what distortion exists also try thicker walled under press. More research on press bending needed :think:



Hey have you tried bending the pipes full of sand ? this gives you a lot of pipe wastage but you end up with a bend close to what mandrel bending produces, just summin I learned from a tradey at work making his mini extractors.

Matthius

Hey have you tried bending the pipes full of sand ? this gives you a lot of pipe wastage but you end up with a bend close to what mandrel bending produces, just summin I learned from a tradey at work making his mini extractors.

Matthius

Very interesting indeed!! Now my brain's really FULL!

Very interesting indeed!! Now my brain's really FULL!


One more thing....don't design them like the pacemaker headers. I mean pacemaker headers work really good and sound nice but they can leak. ITs because the end of the headers don't slide into the flex pipe. Both side [the flex pipe end and the header end] have a flat surface. You know what I am trying to say right?

One more thing....don't design them like the pacemaker headers. I mean pacemaker headers work really good and sound nice but they can leak. ITs because the end of the headers don't slide into the flex pipe. Both side [the flex pipe end and the header end] have a flat surface. You know what I am trying to say right?

There's no overlapping of the pipes? Is that what you're trying to say? :)

Overall fit.

Would it be possible to make them a drop in fit.

With the pacemekers you have to cut a bit of pipe and the flange off the old system and weld onto the new one so the join from the new extractors to the erxisting system can be done.

If the new extractors are the correct length and a flange is fitted then the whole system will be a drop in job.

Also make sure that the pipes pass through the flanges and are welded on the outside. I'm sure that there was a post about this some time ago.

If you are dropping the stainless idea the material cost saving would cover the drop in fit.

You'll kill Pacamakers then.

Good luck with ther project.

Can you send me my AWD extractors yesterday!!!!

Gerry

Yeah thats what I meant the header plugs into the flex pipe. So "overlapping" would be the right word."

Would it be possible to make them a drop in fit.

I think the problem with that is that to make it mate up with the factory pipe/flanges, you're limited in the length of the primaries. I suspect that's one reason some of the extractors you can buy have rather short primaries. One of the reasons EZ Boy wants to make his own (I hope he doesn't mind me speaking for him here) is because he feels the primaries are too short on most of the extractors available and wants longer (and tuned length) ones. Making extractors to suit the factory pipe and flanges is always going to be a compromise.

I think the problem with that is that to make it mate up with the factory pipe/flanges, you're limited in the length of the primaries. I suspect that's one reason some of the extractors you can buy have rather short primaries. One of the reasons EZ Boy wants to make his own (I hope he doesn't mind me speaking for him here) is because he feels the primaries are too short on most of the extractors available and wants longer (and tuned length) ones. Making extractors to suit the factory pipe and flanges is always going to be a compromise.

Exactly that. A bolt up system would be fantastic but I need to look more at this area of the project. I'm just spending so much time in the office lately but I'll get my hands dirty again soon.

If you guys would like some more reading on header design, one of my favourite sites is www.headersbyed.com

Have a look and tell me what you think. I think he's onto something here.

I don't know why I didn't notice this thread before.

Well I'll be putting in my interest because the Pacemakers doesn't sound like it will satisfy my needs. I need gains in the lower RPM range rather then at the top end, which I hear having longer primaries will make the difference. Also I didn't like RPW's offering after I heard about some additinal information about it.

I have been looking into the offering by D&T Performance in Adelaide, they specialise more on the LS1 engines, but they seem to have a decent complete system for the Magna (http://www.dtperformance.com.au/magnavrx.htm) available, however no one here has had it installed probably due to the costs.

I personally am not concerned about a bolt up system since my plan is to overhaul the whole exhaust from the headers to the tip anyway.

i thought somone did? black magna with dual cannons..... cant remember his username tho!

im def looking in to the D&T system, will call them tis week for a price on both systems (dual and single mufler)

Black Advance has the set up.

He has two Cannons though, totally different setup I was speaking of. Hmm, says he uses Pacemaker extractors, hmm then maybe the D&T system isn't what I want then.... :confused:

The second concern is the piping, the D&T system I was talking about has each header coming into a cat with twin inlets and comes out with a single bigger outlet, I would say similar to having twin cats.


Going off topic now I know, but it seems most setups have Pacemaker extractors going to the OEM piping, and the OEM piping where the two header piping merge really isn't that great. That was what caught my attention with the D&T System as they have totally custom piping.

Which was?


Ahh it's just a personal matter. Nothing to concern you of.

Going off topic now I know, but it seems most setups have Pacemaker extractors going to the OEM piping, and the OEM piping where the two header piping merge really isn't that great. That was what caught my attention with the D&T System as they have totally custom piping.

My plan is to dispense with the entire piping from head to cat and do my best to have a decent merge pipe for the secondaries. The primary collector will also be as long and gradual as I can fit under the car.

This is gunna be my crowning achievement - esp with so many eyes on me now :freakingoutwithoverloadsmiley:

Piping,
Great idea.
I like your idea to get round the mindset that the connection point has to be where the original joint point is in the system.
If the system joint has to be cut and shut somewhere why not make it as far back as possible.
One thing to watch out for is that the flexible joint area should really stay close to where it currently is. If it is moved back there will be a magnified vertical movement from the engine rocking motion.

Making the primaries and secondaries as long as possible, check the tuning math, should really do big things to the mid range torque and power.

I remember fitting a "Race" Ford Mexico system to a an Escort 1100 for a short while before the 1600GT was to go in.

An amazing difference. Literally lifted the top speed by 10%. Near where I lived there was a very very long uphill grade on the motorway between Southamton and Portsmouth to go over the Downs. Before the car would just do 70mph, 110- 112 kph terminal at the top of the hill. After was 79 - 80 mph, ie around 125 - 128 kph.

I suspect that if you have the lengths and sizes optimised that the mid range gains should be at least equal to the RPW system.

I really want to get back the "lost" AWD power and some.
Also get some fuel economy.

Not to break you balls but are there any developments? :poke:

Not to break you balls but are there any developments? :poke:

Hey there Players!

Picked up the financials from the Muffler Shop I'm buying. Looks good. Got a heap of $$$ from the Bank to buy him up. Now the ball's in the Lawyer's court drawing up contracts etc.

Couple of weeks and we'll pump out a set. Got the pipe 3D done and the flanges - thanks for loan of the stock logs. Anything has to be better than these lumps of sh!t.

That's the score at present. Will continue to update us I know more.

So which suburb is the shop located? will gladly be a test subject... Live in NSW south west sydney.

How did the exhaust shop negotiations go? :confused:

Hey there Players!

Picked up the financials from the Muffler Shop I'm buying. Looks good. Got a heap of $$$ from the Bank to buy him up. Now the ball's in the Lawyer's court drawing up contracts etc.

Couple of weeks and we'll pump out a set. Got the pipe 3D done and the flanges - thanks for loan of the stock logs. Anything has to be better than these lumps of sh!t.

That's the score at present. Will continue to update us I know more.

u know ill be seeing you there some time soon, might put my exhaust off for a few weeks now and come see what this new shop of yours can do for me :)
good luck with it dude
jaz

STILL in negotiations. We met his asking price - despite the ratsh!t financials, now he seems to be moving the goal-posts. Since we have the money together just sitting there we might tell him to cram it and we start up on our own.

Personal Note: Buying a business always takes a FnCKING LONG TIME. So don't quit your job UNTIL the contract is signed and in your back pocket!!!!

STILL in negotiations. We met his asking price - despite the ratsh!t financials, now he seems to be moving the goal-posts. Since we have the money together just sitting there we might tell him to cram it and we start up on our own.

Personal Note: Buying a business always takes a FnCKING LONG TIME. So don't quit your job UNTIL the contract is signed and in your back pocket!!!!


True......goodluck with ur business.

True......goodluck with ur business.

In a BAZAAR twist of fate, this afternoon we had our offer accepted to buy the Muffler place when just 10mins ago ANOTHER muffler shop has come to us for sale! Ahh! Decisions, decisions. God moves in mysterious ways, and I luv it :D

Yay Yay Yay. Can you buy even just one, pretty pretty please! :dancin:
Good luck again.

In a BAZAAR twist of fate, this afternoon we had our offer accepted to buy the Muffler place when just 10mins ago ANOTHER muffler shop has come to us for sale! Ahh! Decisions, decisions. God moves in mysterious ways, and I luv it :D

Or even *bizarre*. Because a bazaar twist of fate would be..well, that would be bizarre. :)

pedants, the lot of you!

:bowrofl: ........even better. Pick whoover has experience in these things and good customer service.

How's the business purchase going??

Lots of anxious AWD owners here, well one at least, all waiting to get rid of the power sapping exhaust system front end!!!

Gerry

Here it is (sort of - I'm a prick aren't I?)...

Take over is 1st July, fresh start for the financial year and all that. Dad puts in his resignation tomorrow - he's been wanting to shove this job up his boss' ar*e for quite a while now.

Dad will work the shop mostly, I'll come in several days a week to help out and A/H to work on my projects. Dad is a fitter/machinist/turner etc with 30years experience so I'm expecting big things from his work ;)

Exciting times!

Are you going to do any Dyno testing before and after to see how successful the design is?

Are you going to do any Dyno testing before and after to see how successful the design is?

Absolutely. I'm wanting to use a hub dyno if I can, but I see that RUF Performance run 2 dyno sat's a month for $50 on a 4wd dyno. Mostly WRXs etc. This place is at Ingelburn (rebirthing capital of Aust), bit of a worry. Might look elsewhere....

Wow, it wasnt me busting your chops this time :noway: Cant wait for this to come to fruition, very very very keen, can finally after extractors fit my unichip, yay! Since with a Unichip they have to tune on a dyno we could possibly do a before and then the after would be included in the fitting of the chip. Also congratulations on your purchase! :clap: :bouncin:

This might have been covered before, but will your custom AWD headers fit FWD models too? Or will FWD custom headers follow later? I'm keen, but happy to wait. :)

This might have been covered before, but will your custom AWD headers fit FWD models too? Or will FWD custom headers follow later? I'm keen, but happy to wait. :)

I don't have a 3.5" FWD to look under but the subframe and sump should be identical. If they're not a direct bolt-up between platforms, I will look at making it so, otherwise I will follow with separate headers.

I will probably run a budget line of headers too, press bent ones if we can bent without too much distortion. My pattern has a few bends so we will see. I will press the first set of awd one's for my car to see the fit etc.

I'll call them Silver Headers or something that doesn't scream "BUDGET" or "POVERTY" because they won't be in that category at all.

I don't have a 3.5" FWD to look under but the subframe and sump should be identical. If they're not a direct bolt-up between platforms, I will look at making it so, otherwise I will follow with separate headers.


Both Zaphod and I are more than happy to give you a look under our cars and/or being Guinea pigs... :cool:

Absolutely. I'm wanting to use a hub dyno if I can, but I see that RUF Performance run 2 dyno sat's a month for $50 on a 4wd dyno. Mostly WRXs etc. This place is at Ingelburn (rebirthing capital of Aust), bit of a worry. Might look elsewhere....

Suprised you say ingleburn is like this.... I live down the road at campbelltown and always thought the western suburbs were alot more proficent at the rebirthing tasks... lol

Anyways if your in the area give me a shout... Keen to have a squiz at what you come up with.

i'd love to support your bussiness, but dunno if i can wait that long !
good luck with everything btw !



any ideas on when testing / production for customers will begin ?

i'd love to support your bussiness, but dunno if i can wait that long !
good luck with everything btw !

any ideas on when testing / production for customers will begin ?

Thanks! We are taking over 1st July. Will be a week or two before the 1st set of press bents are done as basic designs for the mandrel system. Have to squeeze some Dyno time in there too.

:bump:

Yep. Looking at buying a complete engine (6G74) to work around. Flange plates being organised tomorrow. Cool.

Cough :bump:

Any updates?

YES!! Updates!! Hooray!

Primaries for the front manifold have been fitted and the collector made. I have acquired some aerosol can HPC paint - sorry BLACK or BLACK only :( I actually wanted red or something a little different but anyways...

The flanges are HUGE 10mm thick never gunna warp or move plates of armour.

I had 5 x pics of the header to show everyone tonight but I f**ked up when trying to transfer the files :doh: Worse still I lost movies footage of my daughter - that really peeves.

I only work one day a week at the shop, next wk I'm moving house so there'll be no progress that day. I have to squeeze in work on the headers between jobs. Sux but that's what puts food on the table atm.

On a side note I hope to churn out the first welded up ABS plastic pod box next week. Will post pics of that too.

BLOODY BUSY BOY, not EZ Boy :doubt:

Any idea of cost yet?

We all await your progress with baited breath...

Cheers
Heath Young

Yes, baited breath. Still very keen!

EZ Boy

I too am very keen on what you are doing as well..

Are you in the Newcastle area??

cheers

Anything happening?????????????????????????????

Gerry

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im dying here! Well, not really but still interested!

I know I know!! Arr!!

As some of you know I was to pickup a bare 3.5 for making headers off. This has stalled, due to a car being parked infront of the loading bay we need to access at the storage shed. I understand the car is being towed this weekend so HOPEFULLY we'll pick it up next week. We were going to smash the window and roll the car away, but it's on bricks.

I'm at the shop this Tues guarding the fort while dad indulges at a Melbourne Cup do. I'll be doing some more work on the front bank (minor tweaks) ready for my nice, shiney, METALCATS. I have the stainless mufflers and tips ready too. This has REALLY tested my patience. I'm an instant gratification dude.