Changeover from 3.0 to 3.5L...

What am I in for? especially as far as the ECU goes? so many people have told me I should do it and now I have an opportunity to, I need the collective brains here to help where ever possible.

Thanks in advance :)

if i were you i'd sell up and buy a manual TJ or convert yours to a manual :)

rather than buy a 3.5 :D sorry not what you asked but yeh.....

I'd wait a while. You might be able to upgrade to the 3.8L engine that will be in the new Galant if it fits. Surely there are other engines out there that are better than the standard 3.5L? I would have thought upgrading from the 140kw to the 147kw - 155kw 3.5L is not a major difference? It really depends on what you want out of the car mate. Are you keeping it auto?

Well with my other mods ported over i think it is probably worth while... especially if I drop better cams in while I am at it.

Hrmm.

Reason I ask is because depending on how much power you are gonna give it, I would think those 4 speed auto's would only take so much. I mean they are considered pretty unreliable in stock form, just wondering if anyone knows how much they can take before crapping emselves?

Changeover from 3.0 to 3.5L...

What am I in for? especially as far as the ECU goes? so many people have told me I should do it and now I have an opportunity to, I need the collective brains here to help where ever possible.

Thanks in advance :)

He has the opportunity now ;) and by the time the 3.8's are cheap enough he will probably want a new car.

I was thinking about this not long ago as I can get a rolled 03 magna for around $1000 probably less, with engine running. Was a bit hesistant as I have no experience and i'm in yr12 this year and probably not the best time to think about learning to do an engine swap.

Iv looked into this a bit myself, and i know mate who works at a mistu dealer and he said it can be done in a day if you use a TH 3.5 because they run the same cam profile as the TE/F so no need to change ecu, you also must run 98ron fuel because the ignition timing is advanced more in the 3.0ltr ecu, not sure about engine mounts yet

i say go for it man!! its more fun :D better than buying new.. at least when ppl see ur tf they'll go hey thats the dood with the 3.5 conversion... more street cred than a stock th/tj etc. ;)

thats my bit :)

Ahh thanks guys (esp THSmoker) I needed some positives... heck I have pressed forth with other mods and got there in the end... I would like to think I can do this too... as I was saying to Choonga before... I have skills in IT, Human Services and Plastics manufacturing... car mechanics and electronics was never my strong point, which is why I sought out this club and so far it has seen me through everything.

I'm feeling good about this one.

What is the legallity of an engine swap? You have to do new brakes and stuff?

Ahh thanks guys (esp THSmoker) I needed some positives... heck I have pressed forth with other mods and got there in the end... I would like to think I can do this too... as I was saying to Choonga before... I have skills in IT, Human Services and Plastics manufacturing... car mechanics and electronics was never my strong point, which is why I sought out this club and so far it has seen me through everything.

I'm feeling good about this one.
I say go for it mate!

What better way to learn about engines and stuff then by building/reconditioning and planting it in your engine bay.

Id be happy to help you out on weekends and such (i wont mind the drive either!).. Ive got a Haynes workshop manual still (until this dood comes back from overseas)

What is the legallity of an engine swap? You have to do new brakes and stuff?
Getting new DBA slotted rotors fitted saturday morning and bendix pads... cant wait... but no I would doubt that brakes would be a drama... maybe engine numbers and Vic Roads stuff and those sorts of things... oh and possibly insurance.

i'll come along too! and do my trademark lie down ont he floor and occasionally try and undo a wheel nut..:bowrofl:

What is the legallity of an engine swap? You have to do new brakes and stuff? You arent allowed to put an engine in that is older (build date) than the car.

For example: I could put a xr6T engine into an XF, but not an XF engine into a T

*edit* forgot to add - In regards to RTA stuff a simple 80 change over form is all thats needed for an engine swap (from memory)

I say go for it mate!

What better way to learn about engines and stuff then by building/reconditioning and planting it in your engine bay.

Id be happy to help you out on weekends and such (i wont mind the drive either!).. Ive got a Haynes workshop manual still (until this dood comes back from overseas)
Cheers mate... hey look whatever I cando to get this happening the better and if people want to be involved better still... hrrrmmm what am I gonna drive in the meantime lol

Time to Rent-a-bomb lol

Cheers mate... hey look whatever I cando to get this happening the better and if people want to be involved better still... hrrrmmm what am I gonna drive in the meantime lol

Time to Rent-a-bomb lol
where's gav when you need him? :bowrofl:

hrrrmmm what am I gonna drive in the meantime lol
Time to Rent-a-bomb lol Get the engine, get it rebuilt.. the changeover should take a weekend at the most!

Proper planning is the key.. new bolts, nuts etc etc cause i will bet a 100 bucks there will be one bolt that just doesnt want to come out.

We can have a go at port an polishing the heads with a dremel! :bowrofl: (jokes)

We can have a go at port an polishing the heads with a dremel! :bowrofl: (jokes)
I was thinking wet-or-dry and turtle wax! lol

I want to see what SlickTH has to offer also as he seemed interested in being involved... i just hope dropping in better cams is viable and worthwhile.

Yeah looks like I am going to need to do my homework... it is probably more the electricals which are concerning me... MarkH believes I might have issues there and I know I have the basic carputer set up... hope that is not going to be a headache.

Where on earth would I store the engine!? hrmm

You thought of putting a tiptronic or something in? Will the 3.0l gearbox break quicker with a 3.5 in it?

You thought of putting a tiptronic or something in? Will the 3.0l gearbox break quicker with a 3.5 in it?
I'd like to think it could handle it... not thought about tippy... would be more inclined to keep it simple stupid... but as I said I am looking on knowledge from others more than my own here.

where's gav when you need him? :bowrofl:
Doing similar... I'm trying to fit a 2611 in place of a 2555...

Does the TF run a invec'sII auto? not sure i thought all 3rd gens did, oh and you should gain some KW's with the advanced ignition timing too

all 3rd gen auto's run invecsII, suppsodly the magna auto is good for 230-250kW but u would have to do alot of n/a work to get it to that stage

i say buy the engine, while its not in the car port n polish, stage 2 cams, new valve springs and cam gears, get aftermarket piggyback and should be putting out some nice power atw :)

']all 3rd gen auto's run invecsII, suppsodly the magna auto is good for 230-250kW but u would have to do alot of n/a work to get it to that stage

i say buy the engine, while its not in the car port n polish, stage 2 cams, new valve springs and cam gears, get aftermarket piggyback and should be putting out some nice power atw :)
actually the auto is rated (from mitsubishi) at 220kw's... same with the tiptronic.

Save a bit more and go Manual, since the engine is comming out anyway, you can bolt the new box and LSD in then just lower the car onto the engine/drivline :D

I would try going a manual conversion, someone had most of the bits for sale not long ago cant remember name, zelios kit black with 19's

well i have decided on a worked 3.5 ltr in my tf instead of working the 3ltr i am keeping the 3.0l gearbox since i have already done the manual conversion i am just getting an LSD... waiting to see if i can find a hole verada smashed for pieces ie interior, bars etc,

I dont see a problem dropping in a 3.5l straight in, the timing is a bit different from what I've read, but realistically it is a 3.0l bored and stroked a bit, so at the most it would just require a piggyback ecu to run to its full potential.

I don't understand this timing issue. Are we talking ignition timing here?

The 3.0 ECU uses advanced timing relative to the 3.5 so if it was used on a 3.5 it needs PULP yet;

the engines share the same compression ratio
the 3.0 piston heads are a better design
the 3.0 doesn't need PULP
a 3.0l still sees the same power gains from a piggyback ECU as a 3.5
and from what I'd seen, the TH engine still used the same cams from the 3.0.

The 3.0 is not as efficient in the lower rpms as the 3.5 (as can be seen by the lower peak torque rpm, and the general torque delivery etc...), so the 3.0 needs more advance in those areas. (More efficient = less advance, generally...)

Cheers,

Dave

Efficiency or torque? The torque would be due to the displacement.

The engine will have higher torque output because of increased volume. However, as we are drawing a greater volume through (what I assume are) the same ports, with the same cam profile, the 3.5's air intake velocity will be greater at lower rpms. This in turn will fill the cylinders better at lower rpms, hence greater Volumetric Efficiency at those rpms...

Dave

Yeah, that's all probably true and explains why the 3.5 will be torquier but doesn't explain why one would need to use RON98.

Lesser VE generally means more ignition advance. Therefore, if using a 3.0L computer on a 3.5L engine, the 3.0L computer has ignition timing programmed for that lesser VE. Since the 3.5L needs less advance, the 3.0L computer will more-than-likely overadvance the 3.5L engine at lower rpms. The only (and arguably a bit dodgy) way of countering that overadvancing is to give it some slower-burning (higher octane) fuel.

Cheers,

Dave

Mate I tried to send you another PM but your inbox is full again... I hope you get this... but I am also hoping I can get some of these concerns ironed out here too by our members in the know.


Hey mate, sorry I haven't been in touch... just wanted to let you know I am still interested in the engine... just a bit green about what I am in for as far as converting from the 3.0 to 3.5. I am not a mechanic so it is a bit foreign to me... but I am still keen. My main worries are the electrics (carputer), transmission and maybe the engine mount positioning and whatever else might trip me up etc

Looking at getting Stage 1 cams to fit possibly as well... do you have any advice? I was going to go Ralliart cams but someone suggested I go one step better. Not sure really on what to do.

Do you think I will need new stem seals and all that stuff... or is that a given? treat me as if I know nothing lol... I am just hoping to fit a square plug in a round hole and hope to hell it works.

Anyway... speak about it soon ok
Cheers mate

Is this still going ahead? just intersested to see how hard it is to do. i'm interseted in doing it, however i'm more of a sheep, much easier to follow in someone elses footsteps.

I wouldnt be bothered Upgrading to a 3.5, I would do mild rebuild of the 6G72 with a Piggy back Computer and a 5 speed stuck behind it.. your car would absoluely hammer if you did a Manual conversion and a Race-rebuild..

The gains of getting a 6G74 really don't add up to all that much if you carried the same planned mods on your current engine.. Hell for the amount of money you look like spending, Just supercharge your current engine...

The gains of getting a 6G74 really don't add up to all that much if you carried the same planned mods on your current engine.. Hell for the amount of money you look like spending, Just supercharge your current engine...

From memory he was going to get the engine for something like $1100 (please correct me if i'm wrong). If you can get a supercharger for that price magnat i suggest you get it. the sprintex one is like 7 times the cost of this engine (once again correct me if i'm wrong).

Sure Engine $1100, Cam work another $1000, Chip, Another $1000, Various other essential Pieces needed for it to work..$ Who knows.. Engine mounts may aswell be replaced at the same time....

I wouldnt be bothered Upgrading to a 3.5, I would do mild rebuild of the 6G72 with a Piggy back Computer and a 5 speed stuck behind it.. your car would absoluely hammer if you did a Manual conversion and a Race-rebuild..

The gains of getting a 6G74 really don't add up to all that much if you carried the same planned mods on your current engine.. Hell for the amount of money you look like spending, Just supercharge your current engine...
Whilst the 20% increase in torque is a great gain and is native to the engine, it is hard to justify an engine swap unless the engine is cheap and the labour can be done by yourself. It's a fair comment to S/C the engine. Mind you, some of us like NA engines so 3.0 -> 3.5 is the best foundation to base something on.

:bump:

Did any of this end up happening?
I'm looking into this and after some advice on what needs to be replaced. I didn't really find a clear answer, anyone able to help?

Yeah, I should have got a second opinion... but I abandoned the project most unfortunately as I was advised it was too much work and effort involved in doing it by my mechanic at the time. I did not get enough conclusive information from wherever I asked on whether it could actually be done without too much heartache enough to make my mind up... I am not a mechanic and just had no idea. The negatives outweighed the positives.

It was too risky for me... but saying this and I cant say much at the moment sorry, but I believe the same thing is being attempted at the moment... I await the results to hopefully find out if it really could be done reasonably and what was involved.

read so far then got bored......

I believe that if you fit one of the engines from say a KE or KF or as said KH / TH you will be fine.

To be sure all you would do afterwards is get your emissions checked to ensure no lean out is happening.

As for mounting, all is identical in every way.

Legality, you simply advise of a new motor, most Vic Roads would not know the difference between the engine numbers either way, they would simply see it as a TH with a new motor in it.

Can not see why the job could not be done in under a day, only thing, change the trans to a manual while you are at it.....

read so far then got bored......

I believe that if you fit one of the engines from say a KE or KF or as said KH / TH you will be fine.

To be sure all you would do afterwards is get your emissions checked to ensure no lean out is happening.

As for mounting, all is identical in every way.

Legality, you simply advise of a new motor, most Vic Roads would not know the difference between the engine numbers either way, they would simply see it as a TH with a new motor in it.

Can not see why the job could not be done in under a day, only thing, change the trans to a manual while you are at it.....

I've already got a manual :P
And it would be TransportSA for mine :P
Wouldn't you need to change the ECU and BCM for it to all talk to each other properly though?

Sorry mate, was more thinking of HyperTF original post, did not see how long ago it was.

To be honest, I can not see there being any problem with the 3.0 to 3.5, especially if you run a unichip as then the small adjustments can be done and you do not need to start changing things like ECU etc. Would be cheaper that way, the sensors are the same, the wiring is the same as it changed on the TJ from memory.

Ok.. This is getting confusing with 2 theads going. :P I think one needs to be closed...

Anyway, What's this about a uni chip? (I only konw of them)

What do they do, how are they installed and tuned?

Edit: So you're saying this (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4584453290&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) engine would be no good for a TF cos it goes from TE ->TW??? :confused: How can this be so if you say they changed plugs???

Ok, this in itself would be ok, you would have to use the wiring harness from your motor anyway, the TW has a set of solonoids above the front fuel rail as well as slightly different set up on the TB.

You would use your top half manifold and the Tm off your car and then I can see no problems

Ok, this in itself would be ok, you would have to use the wiring harness from your motor anyway, the TW has a set of solonoids above the front fuel rail as well as slightly different set up on the TB.

You would use your top half manifold and the Tm off your car and then I can see no problems

All sounds ok... Still gotta convince dad though... you're helping though Mal!! :thumbsup:

What does Tm stand for?

i know this is an old thread and all...

but there was no issues wat so ever with changine the 3.0 to the 3.5.

some said there was a difference with the inner cv bracket or somthing but everything just bolted right up. even used the same loom

just thought id let any one know that was looking to go down this path :D

oh and ecu difference i got no idea sorry i just used the haltec

i know this is an old thread and all...

but there was no issues wat so ever with changine the 3.0 to the 3.5.

some said there was a difference with the inner cv bracket or somthing but everything just bolted right up. even used the same loom

just thought id let any one know that was looking to go down this path :D

oh and ecu difference i got no idea sorry i just used the haltec

I'm headed down this path soon, just waiting for work to slow down a bit (too buisy atm). I'll also be using the 3.0 ECU (in combination with a Unichip) on a TJ sprots/VRX 3.5.

From what I understand the major differance was that the 3.0 ECU ran more advanced timing down low then the 3.5, so once you retune to suit it all works fine.

Meh, your using the ralliart engine from memeory, obviouslly you would have had to pull back the timing accross the range a touch to compensate for the higher compression. :P

So there was no problem with the top engine mount? I was told there might have been a difference between the two engines due to the 3.5's higher block hight, but looks like this is compensated for in the block rather then the mount.

Let us know of the final results once it's all finished. I'm expecting approx. 130kW at the wheels once it's in.

yeh i used the same engine mounts aswell

not sure how they are tuning it but yeh i'll leave that to them :)

yeh i used the same engine mounts aswell

not sure how they are tuning it but yeh i'll leave that to them :)

Ahh good stuff, I less item I need to buy..lol

I think it's a worthwhile conversion if you get the engine for a good price. The 3.5 is a lot better on fuel not to mention the power advantage. I have a TJ while my brother had a TE with the 3L. Both auto's and on average mine chewed 2L/100km less, especially in traffic. Both cars were running perfectly.

I will be doing this conversion in the next couple of weeks, to my Wifes TE Altera. Its getting a 3.5ltr with Ralliart cams, I also have the GTVI KH ECU, so I will compare the two ECU's on the dyno and let you know.

this has to take the record for the biggest thread mine!!

this has to take the record for the biggest thread mine!!

yeh well this never got answered so i told my findings to help any one out that was querying it

Quick Q thats sorta relevant: My KE engine (3.5) is 225,000 Old was thinking of getting a new(er) one soon and put in (mine rattles to buggery), but after reading this not sure whether something from a TJ/TL/TW will run properly (cam profiles different)? I dont like my chances of finding a reasonably low Km KE/KF/KH/TH engine these days.

Advice appreciated.

Quick Q thats sorta relevant: My KE engine (3.5) is 225,000 Old was thinking of getting a new(er) one soon and put in (mine rattles to buggery), but after reading this not sure whether something from a TJ/TL/TW will run properly (cam profiles different)? I dont like my chances of finding a reasonably low Km KE/KF/KH/TH engine these days.

Advice appreciated.

A newer 3.5 will run on your old ECU, but you might need a piggyback (interceptor) type of ECU to get it to run optimally (to correct any ignition and air/fuel ratios that need fine tuning), plus you get a bit more power. :)

Sorry to bring this up again, so if I put a 3.5l in my ole TE 3.0l all I would need for a successful conversion is the motor and the ecu, does the ecu plugs match the older models is my next question?

Sorry to bring this up again, so if I put a 3.5l in my ole TE 3.0l all I would need for a successful conversion is the motor and the ecu, does the ecu plugs match the older models is my next question?

Just keep your old ECU and fit a Unichip, e-manage or the like to correct the ignition and fuel timing. My 3.0 ECU ran the TJ sports/VRX 3.5 fine before the Unichip got tunned, it was massively rich, but ran none the less. :P

Yeah but if I could get a ecu really cheap with the motor then would it fit straight over???

I really need to know if the plugs are the same, and if it controls things like cruise control and the speed thingy, and things like that.

Dont really want to upgrade to a unichip at the moment, so if I could just swap over the motor and ecu then that would be great!

Cheers for any responses.

hate to do this but im about to do the 3.5 in the TE 3.0 in the next couple weeks to and need to know what im needing to do

A 3.5 in a tf would be a ripper! Due to the fact they're around 120kg lighter then the tj/tl's.
Especially with a manual it would fly!

hate to do this but im about to do the 3.5 in the TE 3.0 in the next couple weeks to and need to know what im needing to do

Pretty sure this and many other threads cover this rather well

yeh I have read this engine change over on a couple other threads but no one seems to know what is actually involved I keep reading different things and makes me confused haha I just want a nice simple yes it will work yes the ecu will be fine and no you don't have to worry about the timing advance and running 98 octane fuel

Thread bump.
Looking at a TJ 3.5 into a 99 TH 3.0 auto.

Are the engine looms the same, can I just slam the engine onto the current auto and just swap ecu's (using TH loom)? Or will I need to swap engine looms from the TJ over to the TH?

yes it will work, use the injector loom from the 3L, use your current ecu, and the 3L's alternator(iirc) bracket. I ran 98 fuel for peace of mind, and later had a ralliart tune flashed to my ecu.

If you swap ecu's, you are likely to run into the immobilizer. Unless you want to delete the immobilizer code, I'd recommend keeping your original ecu. One thing to note, I don't believe (but I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong) that all ecus are flashable. You will need to see if you have a certain marking if you want to flash (MH7202F on the IC's off the top of my head)

Can anyone confirm if the body loom is the same TH-TJ. I have a complete TJ that will be a donor car to a TH. TH is 3.0l auto, no abs, no air bags, no cruise control.
TJ is 2003, with abs and airbag and cruise.

I'm going to swap the engine loom, ecu, locks and BCM. Do i need to swap more than just the engine loom that goes through the firewall, or will the TH have plugs on body loom for cruise control?

Is swapping the entire steering column a easy way to go to change the locks around?