ok sat y got 130 atws ( graham west dyno) with cai TB and zorst on a 5speed 3.5 ...........

if i added highflow cat + rpw extracors+ ralliart cams ......... gave it a few weeks for the stock computer to learn and adjust ( how ever so little it does learn anyways) .

do u think i could break 140 atws?

then after a greddy be looking at 145ish ?

i know all numbers are pretty subjective but round abouts is what im looking for


reason for only installing ralliart cams is $420 installed in my car i cant complain with that for now ....... once i have done all other mods down the track ill look at stage 1 or 2 cams but for now ralliarts will do me


thnx for ur oppinions guys :)

I dont think the cams will do much but give you more torque..

More torque is better than more kw's for the magna's..

yup i agree ....... my current figures r 130 atws well ( 129.7) with 350nm

make some guess's ppl:P

I dont think the cams will do much but give you more torque..

More torque is better than more kw's for the magna's..
You can't increase torque without increasing power :P

Whether your peak power increases or not is the question, and there's only one way to find that out.

You can't increase torque without increasing power :P

Whether your peak power increases or not is the question, and there's only one way to find that out.
True!

I should rephrase that then.

I think you will get a crap load of torque earlier once you tune it with a greddy, but little in the way of kw gain.

do u think 140ish give or take with no greddy and 145 with greddy ( give or take) sounds bout right ?

one way to find out i ges:D

It's hard to say, mate.. 140kW ATW = 187hp ATW, which roughly works out to 187kW at the flywheel, give or take. Yet a Ralliart only makes 180kW at the flywheel and it's got a CR of 9.5:1 and some mild head work which you don't.

On the other hand you're on a dyno so your "real" power output could be +/- 10% anyway.

Just do it already :tantrum: :P Let us know how it goes!

im confident im about where a ralliart is ... was dyno'd same day as 2 ralliarts ... one had 124 atws ( auto) the other 134 atws with custom extractors zorst and cai (manual) ......

its all subjective i know:P but im just looking for guestimates:P

I'm only speculating the same as you, but I think your numbers sound about right.

w0w i didnt know magnas had such a power loss from engine to wheels, considering there like 1 foot from the engine...so really the ralliarts are losing like 50Kw (taxable HP i think its called)....gee so if the TR is making 124Kw at the fly, @ the wheels would be like 80 or something.......:|

It's hard to say, mate.. 140kW ATW = 187hp ATW, which roughly works out to 187kW at the flywheel, give or take. Yet a Ralliart only makes 180kW at the flywheel and it's got a CR of 9.5:1 and some mild head work which you don't.

On the other hand you're on a dyno so your "real" power output could be +/- 10% anyway.

Just do it already :tantrum: :P Let us know how it goes!


That isn't really true the magna gearbox only looses about 12% at worst so the power would be more like 165@flywheel

and why use the emanage they are crap better off putting in a haltech or microtech or something else of the like

Ralliart (auto) (180-124)/180 = 31% loss

Me (auto and assume 8kw gain with muffler) (155-110)/155 = 29% loss

Once again, its all dyno dependant.

I don't think any gear box/drivetrain is 88% efficient.

w0w i didnt know magnas had such a power loss from engine to wheels, considering there like 1 foot from the engine...so really the ralliarts are losing like 50Kw (taxable HP i think its called)....gee so if the TR is making 124Kw at the fly, @ the wheels would be like 80 or something.......:|

By my calculations, 87kw ATW

That isn't really true the magna gearbox only looses about 12% at worst so the power would be more like 165@flywheel

and why use the emanage they are crap better off putting in a haltech or microtech or something else of the like
How can you say an emanage is crap.. A haltech and emanage cost the same. They also produce the same results.

So where exactly are they crap?

I take it youre basing your opinion on no relevant data or actual use of either product?

I would class the haltech and Greddy on equal footing on any Naturally aspirated vehicle without a doubt.

If it was turbo'd, sorry to say the greddy wins out and the new Greddy Ultimate package, drool .. is even better. Got one of those coming for my magna now - gives me teh ability to remove the stock air flow meter without changing computer. Thank you very much just picked up I reckon another 10 - 20kw there alone and reduced spooling up times.

If it was turbo'd, sorry to say the greddy wins out
What makes you say that, David? Not disagreeing, just curious. I know the Haltech Interceptor can do boost control at the same RPM points that it uses for fuel and ignition maps. What does the Greddy offer that the Haltech doesn't?


gives me teh ability to remove the stock air flow meter without changing computer. Thank you very much just picked up I reckon another 10 - 20kw there alone and reduced spooling up times.
Curious how that works too. Does the new Greddy let you read load from the TPS but output a frequency so the ECU doesn't get confused, or am I way off the track?

Okay without making a lecture of it cause there is tonnes of technical stuff,

main ingredient is the Greddy has a injector calibration option allowing yo to use larger injectors and still do baseline tuning without having problems of pulling enough fuel out at idle. This means that if you go from say 100 to 300cc injectors, you place these numbers into the greddy and it recalibrates as the primary initial adjustment across teh board the new injector ratio of say 0.75%. This means the car is up and running just as if it was on the origonal injectors.

The haltech, unichop or any other system does not have this function and once you hit a certain injector size over stock usually around 25% larger, you have problems at idle and low rpm with not being able to pull enough fuel out at idle.

Secondly the greddy has two maps the main air/flow map which is like the haltech TPS V RPM working on the air flow meter frequency output values.

But it also has the secondary injection map which you can use to directly add injection timing and ignition timing / retard ignition timing on the output side of the ecu not the input which means that you can adjust to your hearts content without exceeding the programming limits of teh stock computer and hitting an error code.

This is teh bare bones of it but you can see my point.

Now the new ultimate - all I can say is wow and wow.

It has half the functions of a full haltech ECU package whilst still working with the stock computer includign now tempature compesnation, completely takes over injector and igniting timing so that the stock computer becomes nothing more than a surrogate referencing computer only for idle speed, air conditioning and other functions like that.

I still love the haltech though fantastic tool and like it a lot. But really it was only designed for as a piggy back unit to retune stock computers in there natural state ie N/A or turbo if stock turbo.

The greddy was designed from a different point of view of being able to work with turbo conversions.

wow this thread is getting interesting!!!:cool:

in regards to the greddy .... personbally ill probably go what ever is do-able and for the right price at the time .... im wanted to make a quick NA not a monster NA racecar:P ... lol i mean im on the budget of a 19yo so im limited :(

only one way to find out if it would crack 140 atw's with just extracors high flow cat and ralliart cams ..... id be VERY cut if i could only scrape 140 with a greddy plus alll the abive though :(

By my calculations, 87kw ATW

*does what residents of springfield did when rocket to hit comet landed on only bridge out of town*

ya-hu hu *grabs collar and pulls repetitivly*

87Kw.....wow...thats like.....not...good...at all......*starts to cry*

thanks for the info though

He's stumbled upon the 3rd dimension! hoi-glayben!! That's exactly wot I was thinking when I wrote that :)

yeah...anyway...

I'd be suprised if you didn't crack the 140kw. The greddy will make a lot of difference, if not much to peak power, it will to torque and fuel consumption.

I guess id you do the comparison...The ralliart power plant is stock apart from extractors, headwork, exhaust and tune. You'll have more free flowing extractors, headwork i doubt would be all that fantastic being a mass produced car, you'll have the cams, you have a better exhaust. You will lack the tune for all of this which may start to be come the limiter. My guess is you'll go just under 140kw.

With an after market ECU, I can imagine a more than usual increase, the tune will take account for all the mods, especially the cams. I'm putting $10 down on 148kw ATW

It will be very interesting indeed....

How can you say an emanage is crap.. A haltech and emanage cost the same. They also produce the same results.

So where exactly are they crap?

I take it youre basing your opinion on no relevant data or actual use of either product?


I have had alot to do with aftermarket ecu's and well out of all the different ones that the workshops i have had dealings with (these guys have the fastest cars in there classes) funny car top doorslammers and so on so forth and they have done dyno testing them themselves on all the different ones and every time the emanage came up as the least tuneable. And these guys know what there on about, unlike some others who claim to know. Yes i know funny cars and doorslammers dont have ecu's but these guys own workshops that do big hp motors for circuit racing and other forms of drag racing.

So thats were my info comes from top name workshops from round australia !!

im confident im about where a ralliart is ... was dyno'd same day as 2 ralliarts ... one had 124 atws ( auto) the other 134 atws with custom extractors zorst and cai (manual) ......

its all subjective i know:P but im just looking for guestimates:P
didnt have CAI... had a pod that was fokin with the MAF sensor...

without the pod there is a FOOKLOAD more power... and the zorts is stock, just less resonators... that will ALL change VERY soon... then we'll see what it pulls ;)

I have had alot to do with aftermarket ecu's and well out of all the different ones that the workshops i have had dealings with (these guys have the fastest cars in there classes) funny car top doorslammers and so on so forth and they have done dyno testing them themselves on all the different ones and every time the emanage came up as the least tuneable. And these guys know what there on about, unlike some others who claim to know. Yes i know funny cars and doorslammers dont have ecu's but these guys own workshops that do big hp motors for circuit racing and other forms of drag racing.

So thats were my info comes from top name workshops from round australia !!
So youre comparing a Piggyback ECU (Greddy eManage) with a complete refit of an aftermarket ECU (Haltech). In one hand you have apples and in the other oranges.. If youre talking about that, then yes there are far better aftermarket ECU's available.

But how about we compare apples with apples and lets talk Piggyback ECU's which is what part of this thread is about.

Haltech have only just introduced a tuneable Piggyback ECU for the Magna, it pulled a massive (insert sarcasm) 7kw gain on a standard Magna. Pretty much the same as what the Emanage Unit does.

This being a Magna forum i would think you would need to compare piggyback ECU's that are compatable with ... magna's...


Unichip
Haltech
Greddy
If i had my choice of the lot, i dont know what I would chose. If i could get a pro Haltech tuner to do a custom tune, probably one of those as its a bit newer in the technology stakes..

In my discussions I have been referring to the Haltech Interceptor piggy back units from the start. Easy thing to get confused with but just clarifying that.

Actually just read to what you were referring to.

When it comes to the "Re Tuning" of vehicles with stock ecu's and mild mods, fitment of a full aftermarket ecu woudl produce maybe 1 - 3 kw more power than the equivelent greddy / haltech interceptor unit simply because there aer not enough mods yet to require all the advanced tuning options of a full ECU system.

But as to the suitability of the greddy unit - when you have a FWD magna pulling 11 secs with a greddy e-manage and perfect driveability, I don't think anyone can argue that the greddy isn't capable of doing the job.

Whilst I agree they will never match a full ECU system in some ways, in many ways its not needed and with the more modern cars, it can actually drive worse on the road as the stock factory computers are geting smarter and more powerful that make the afteramrket cheap computers look positively ancient.

But as to the suitability of the greddy unit - when you have a FWD magna pulling 11 secs with a greddy e-manage and perfect driveability, I don't think anyone can argue that the greddy isn't capable of doing the job.
I think that also has to do with alot of the components you have upgraded in the engine aswell Mitsiman.

Without stronger internals theres only so much you can squeeze out with a Piggyback ECU.

Very true - although remember there are no forged components in this engine at all. They are all semi improved components and just good solid foundations.

The point I was more making was that regardless of the internal components, the greddy has teh capability to do high level tuning very accuratly. that was all I really was trying to say. Those that say it don't, if you aer comparing directly against a full ECU haltech / Motec system than absoloutly correct. They are a much higher level end user setup but for 90% of the people on these forums - those systems are not necessary.

ok then AMC geniesis:P.........


take a gues at what computer would best suit me , with mods of extractors, high flow cat, 2.5inch zorst, cai, flowed TB ( possibly a larger TB ) and ralliart cams ?

bare in mind im only 19 so im obviously on a bit of a budget ( trying to make it quick(ish) not a race car so id be looking at the "bang for your buck" category of piggy backs ..

ideas?

what bout wolf3d ? ... i have heard some bad news about it but i also know ppl who know their stuff and say its not a bad unit for price and would do me good

what bout wolf3d ? ... i have heard some bad news about it but i also know ppl who know their stuff and say its not a bad unit for price and would do me good
The age old saying, you get what you pay for.

Rather than decide which unit to get on here. Go and speak to a few tuning shops and see what they use.

You need a good tuner to get the max out of your piggyback. If its not put on the rollers to tune, then stear clear..

I woudl class regardless of who the person is either the Haltech Interceptor, Greddy Emanage or the Unichip if you cannot find any good tuners on the above. Personally Haltech has the best options in the east coasts due to lack of greddy tuner support.

Wolf - I am not a personal fan of but woudl requrie the same work as a haltech full ECU package to install and tune.

ok thnx alot for ur help guys!!:D i ges only ne way to find out what i will get in the end ..keep u posted

Hey stonesour,

where can you get ralliart cams so cheap? Im not worried about installation just need to know where to get the cams!

Hey stonesour,

where can you get ralliart cams so cheap? Im not worried about installation just need to know where to get the cams!
blakie... gimme a fortnight and then pm me.. ill have a spare set ;);)

pm sent

I guess id you do the comparison...The ralliart power plant is stock apart from extractors, headwork, exhaust and tune. You'll have more free flowing extractors, headwork i doubt would be all that fantastic being a mass produced car, you'll have the cams, you have a better exhaust. You will lack the tune for all of this which may start to be come the limiter. My guess is you'll go just under 140kw.
You forgot the increase in CR which doesn't account for nothing and the adjustment to the MAF sensitivity or working range.


Haltech have only just introduced a tuneable Piggyback ECU for the Magna, it pulled a massive (insert sarcasm) 7kw gain on a standard Magna. Pretty much the same as what the Emanage Unit does.
10kW gain here :badgrin:


But as to the suitability of the greddy unit - when you have a FWD magna pulling 11 secs with a greddy e-manage and perfect driveability, I don't think anyone can argue that the greddy isn't capable of doing the job.
That's always been a good point.


take a gues at what computer would best suit me , with mods of extractors, high flow cat, 2.5inch zorst, cai, flowed TB ( possibly a larger TB ) and ralliart cams ?
eBay has those resistor things going real cheap. The owners there swear by them.

If you can get to a tuner familiar with an e-Manage then that's a good start. Don't ignore the Unichip as it's a proven performer even if it's all but flexible. Haltech's Interceptor is a neat unit and allows you to tinker with it but it's not cheap so bang for your buck it runs second to a Unichip.


I woudl class regardless of who the person is either the Haltech Interceptor, Greddy Emanage or the Unichip if you cannot find any good tuners on the above. Personally Haltech has the best options in the east coasts due to lack of greddy tuner support.
Agreed. There's great support for the Haltech and APS piggybacks on this side of the country however the e-Manage is only really done by backyard people and the odd tuner after money from something they've never touched. I'm sure there are a couple of tuners over here, (Brisbane at least), with the nouse to give a good result but good luck finding them.

as far as im aware there are more greddy tuners round adelaide than there are unichips tuners i think ............. i think there r very few places in adelaide that do the unichip.... i know turbo tune on south road do though