This thread is to provide more info on the tuning kits available for 3rd Gens.

These kits are made to fit easily and are designed for the V6 3.0L and 3.5L engines.

Appearance The tuning gaskets for throttle body and EGR are only just visible at 1.6mm thickness, the one for the inlet manifold extends for about 5mm from it's perimeter.
It is grey in colour and looks good with the silver manifold.

Most noticeable is the fuel injection kit which replaces the plastic supports for the front and rear fuel rails. These are made of polished alloy and look much better than the black plastic.
There is some cabling near the fuel inlet, and is barely visible under existing hoses.

Performance The throttle body kit noticeably improves the low and mid range, by reducing heat build-up in the inlet manifold
The fuel injection kit gives noticeably improved throttle response from idle, as well as improving the flat spot between 1500 and 2500 RPM. After about 500Km the 'droning' that was so annoying from the sports muffler reduced to a low level.

You can also run on 95 octane instead of 98 due to the increased energy derived from better vaporising of the fuel. Those who use standard unleaded should also find improvement.
Anyone considering throttle body modification may find similar gains by using the fuel injection kit. :cool:

What's all this then?? :)

Hi EZ Boy

This post is a continuation of a thread from AMC Reception - you can find all the prelim. info there.
Its about deriving additional performance for 3rd Gens by improving temp. and fuel control.
Magna engines use high temp. air induction to help vapourise the fuel mixture, which includes oily crankcase fumes and often EGR (recirculation of exhaust soot directly into the plenum).

This also gives fast warm-up to minimise exhaust pollutants from the tail pipe using the catalytic converter. The hot intake limits the amount of dense air (20% oxygen) that can be consumed for good power from the engine.
The liquid fuel is kept cool to provide a predictable level of cylinder combustion control.

The atomised fuel is injected into the cylinder and the reduction in pressure changes this into a gas. It is only when heated that the fuel really starts to perform. The vapour pressure of Octane is less than 2kPa at 25 Deg C but increases to around 20 kPa at 70 Deg C.

This is how the heat reducing gaskets and the heated fuel injection system combine to improve performance

Another benefit is that before you had to use 98 Ron fuel - but this has a slower burn rate. You can now use 95 Fuel and achieve better throttle response. :cool:

can we see some pics, and how much would it cost for the fuel injector warmer to get all the way over to a nice place i call perth?

this fuel injection system sounds interesting. give us pics!!! and are they hard to install?

can we see some pics, and how much would it cost for the fuel injector warmer to get all the way over to a nice place i call perth?





:stoopid: im excited now :badgrin:

bump..... and picsorban :D

bump..... and picsorban :D
Ditto :doubt:

Hi Guys

I will try to answer all the above questions in this one post
Pics - yes, it will happen as soon as I can. The kits are designed to fit neatly and compliment the appearance of the engine.

The fuel injection kit fits to both front and rear fuel rails and takes the same skill as replacing the rubber 'O' rings on your injectors (which means removing & replacing the inlet manifold) You can have the injectors cleaned at the same time if you feel that they are due.

Costs of the throttle body kit, fuel injection kit and ignition/coolant earthing kit including all freight anywhere in Aust. & GST is $109 thanks guys :cool:

im very interested pending pics, since i have to take the plenum of i might also be botherd to change my rear sparkies and also clean my injectaz

well something to look forward on my holidays......a project :badgrin: lol btw picsorban :D

ill have one.

:bump:

and then?

any update on this one :confused:

Hi Guys
This is the Pic of the fuel injector kit. If you compare with your own engine you can see that the black plastic fuel rail mounts have been replaced with polished alloy adaptors - very neat

There is also 2 mounts for the rear fuel rail & some black cabling completing the kit that fits out of sight

Barry :cool:

[IMG]

is this a diy fitment or u need the expert to install everything. also 109$ to ur door? i think i'll get 1 :cool:

hey barry
will this princible work for a 6g72 quad cam 24v MIVEC engine?

Okay, so what these fuel rail spacers do is allow heat to conduct to the rail and heat the fuel which is beneficial right?


.

Hi Dark_magician
Thanks for your post.



is this a diy fitment or u need the expert to install everything. also 109$ to ur door? i think i'll get 1
__________________
~0) 2002 Ralliart Magna~0)
Qld. Repreznt




All kits are bolt-on and I include instructions. Most people do it themselves, but I always recommend that they use a Workshop manual for details. If you can change spark plugs on the V6, then you should be able to do this.

When you want to order, I just need to know if your engine has the EGR pipe that runs from the rear of the plenum to the rear exhaust. I'll PM you for the info.

Cheers Barry :cool:

I think we'd all like to hear a LOT more about this and in a LOT more detail. I know I'm listening :D

Are you a company? What other models do you cater for? Why Magnas? Where are you located?

Come on now, no secrets on AMC ;)

Hi EZ Boy

Why Magnas? I have had an affinity with Mitsubishi cars since my TR 5-speed Manual that I found so great on long trips. This was an ideal way to test the new technology oils then emerging. I also used it as my mobile for installing electronic vehicle security systems. So when the time came to update it was natural to progress to a 3rd Gen TJ t/t with its adaptive electronics. Its really interesting to watch the EGO monitor display on a 3rd Gen. After a lot of research I came up with the performance tuning kit because I could personally test each system on a step-by step daily basis. I was also inspired to join AMC by the various problems owners reported, in the hope that I could contribute in some way.
I am located in western Sydney.

Secrets? I presume your question is motivated by your own involvement in the muffler trade.
The fact is that as engines become even more high-tech, the importance of the behaviour of improved oils and fuels is greater.
One of the most surprising outcomes of the kit was the reduced 'droning' from the fitting of a sports muffler, indicating more complete combustion.

So I invite anyone who had this problem to respond as to their experience, and whether they were, or were not able to find a solution. Cheers :cool:


QUOTE
I think we'd all like to hear a LOT more about this and in a LOT more detail. I know I'm listening
Are you a company? What other models do you cater for? Why Magnas? Where are you located?
Come on now, no secrets on AMC
__________________
* TJ2 AWD * FULL Twin 2" System * .

Hi swiggs


Quote hey barry
will this princible work for a 6g72 quad cam 24v MIVEC engine?


Havn't actually tested one of these yet - don't find that many over here.
If I get any info I'll certainly let you know Barry :cool:

Hi ReallyArt

Okay, so what these fuel rail spacers do is allow heat to conduct to the rail and heat the fuel which is beneficial right?

That's right. It's founded on a well-known principle that allows better combining of the fuel and oxygen to give more complete combustion. On the Magna I've found that you also need to improve ignition and coolant earthing and the throttle body gasket helps too. If you already have a thermal block, then that will work just as well. Barry :cool:

Secrets? I presume your question is motivated by your own involvement in the muffler trade.
Not at all, just breaking the ice. ;) My father runs and works the muffler shop. I run a carwash (2nd one getting DA atm), but I really luv tinkering with my Magna. Trying to retire so I can spend more time doing this!


The fact is that as engines become even more high-tech, the importance of the behaviour of improved oils and fuels is greater.
I agree. I don't believe mainstream 'performance' products and services have completely caught up with all aspects of the modern motor vehicle.

This thread is to provide more info on the tuning kits available for 3rd Gens.

These kits are made to fit easily and are designed for the V6 3.0L and 3.5L engines.

Appearance The tuning gaskets for throttle body and EGR are only just visible at 1.6mm thickness, the one for the inlet manifold extends for about 5mm from it's perimeter.
It is grey in colour and looks good with the silver manifold.

Most noticeable is the fuel injection kit which replaces the plastic supports for the front and rear fuel rails. These are made of polished alloy and look much better than the black plastic.
There is some cabling near the fuel inlet, and is barely visible under existing hoses.

Performance The throttle body kit noticeably improves the low and mid range, by reducing heat build-up in the inlet manifold
The fuel injection kit gives noticeably improved throttle response from idle, as well as improving the flat spot between 1500 and 2500 RPM. After about 500Km the 'droning' that was so annoying from the sports muffler reduced to a low level.You can also run on 95 octane instead of 98 due to the increased energy derived from better vaporising of the fuel. Those who use standard unleaded should also find improvement.
Anyone considering throttle body modification may find similar gains by using the fuel injection kit. :cool:





i guess ur right barry, bout the droning and the throttle response is great. ive only managed to install t/b gasket ,egr pipe gasket ,and the distributor earth cable. am yet to install the rest wen i get time again.

Hi dark_magician

Quote
i guess ur right barry, bout the droning and the throttle response is great. ive only managed to install t/b gasket ,egr pipe gasket ,and the distributor earth cable. am yet to install the rest wen i get time again.

Thanks for the feedback. Great to hear of such good results & it's only 1/2 completed!
When do you expect to finish ?

Cheers Barry :cool:

dunno,wen i hav time. mate can u produce some photo if possible for that blue wire where to attach not too sure so as the distributor assembly earth wire to throttle cable holder just wanna see if i did the right connection. ta :cool:

Hi dark_magician

The design is intended to be non-intrusive & pics don't show a lot but I will PM you something with more detail

Cheers Barry :cool:

can this be shipped to the u.s. ? sounds like a very good modification. i'm new to the forum, but have been reading posts for a while and find it great.

Hi lo1222



can this be shipped to the u.s. ? sounds like a very good modification. i'm new to the forum, but have been reading posts for a while and find it great.

Should be ok - will check on details & pricing & get back to you
Where in the US are you ?

What other mods have you done ?

Could you please confirm Throttle Body Inside Diameter in mm

Do you have EGR ? Yes/No
If so, there will be a gold - coloured metal pipe running from the rear of the plenum down to the rear exhaust manifold.

Will you be fitting the kit yourself ?

Thanks Barry :cool:

Hey Barry,

Can I purchase the gasket set on it's own? Are they ceramic gaskets? I'm putting a custom plenum on next week with the EGR being disabled (as it should be).

Does fuel economy worsen with the fuel rail spacers?

Thanks.

P.S. Dark Magician, hows your kit going? Anyone else got the kit on yet?

Hey Barry,

Can I purchase the gasket set on it's own? Are they ceramic gaskets? I'm putting a custom plenum on next week with the EGR being disabled (as it should be).

Does fuel economy worsen with the fuel rail spacers?

Thanks.

P.S. Dark Magician, hows your kit going? Anyone else got the kit on yet?


I have had the kit on for 2 days, so can't comment much. Only changes so far, is the exhaust drone is not as noticable as it was before the kit.

Hey Barry,

Can I purchase the gasket set on it's own? Are they ceramic gaskets? I'm putting a custom plenum on next week with the EGR being disabled (as it should be).

Does fuel economy worsen with the fuel rail spacers?

Thanks.

P.S. Dark Magician, hows your kit going? Anyone else got the kit on yet?



Hi EZ Boy

The ceramic gaskets are available separately. They can be made for a custom plenum but I will need a template from you for that. Same price $25 delivered.

The fuel economy remained the same on my TJ2 even tho I was getting improved throttle response.

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=383983&postcount=60

Hey Barry,


P.S. Dark Magician, hows your kit going? Anyone else got the kit on yet?




the kit is doing wonders as said b4 droning is cured specially right now hot weather i cant hear any droning n e more. with fuel economy usually with 95ron i cant get 500k's on a full tank. but now i can get more out of it and this is on a hot brissie weather :cool:

hello barry, thanks for the reply. as for the info you requested, the shipping would be to norfolk, virginia. my current mods are 65mm high flowed throttle body, short ram intake with k&n pod filter, engine grounding kit, ported exhaust manifolds, some kyb shocks and struts, and some exhaust work soon. pricing custom cat-backs from shops in my area. thanks. oh, and i do have an egr. :D

hello barry, thanks for the reply. as for the info you requested, the shipping would be to norfolk, virginia. my current mods are 65mm high flowed throttle body, short ram intake with k&n pod filter, engine grounding kit, ported exhaust manifolds, some kyb shocks and struts, and some exhaust work soon. pricing custom cat-backs from shops in my area. thanks. oh, and i do have an egr. :D

Hi lo1222
Oh, and by the way, welcome to the club - trust you will enjoy your stay with us.

I am sending you details for shipment by Private Mail

Cheers Barry :cool:

hello barry, thanks for the welcome. i e-mailed you some info because i have been unable to pm on the site for some reason but hopefully i'll get some help with that soon because i let the site know of my problem with this. i believe i will enjoy my stay here, the site is interesting and very informative. :D

Hi Barry,

I am currently in the market for a few little mods to go onto my car, and i would like to get my hands on one of the fuel rail kits for my TF 3.0L Man 1997.

You can send me a PM of the details for payment and postage etc.



Cheers

is there any dyno slips yet i would like to see one
before and after

Hi Barry,

I am currently in the market for a few little mods to go onto my car, and i would like to get my hands on one of the fuel rail kits for my TF 3.0L Man 1997.

You can send me a PM of the details for payment and postage etc.

Cheers


Hi Nick

Thankyou and I will get that info off to you shortly

The kit will work best if you have a hi-flow air filter like the K & N Panel or Pod

Cheers, Barry

is there any dyno slips yet i would like to see one
before and after

Hi Magnus

Sorry, I havn't needed to get a dyno report as I rely on the feedback of people actually using the kit - came close once or twice though, through the generosity of people like Black Beard

Some of the benefits like reduced exhaust droning and less soot in the tailpipe don't show up until ~ 250Km, but the increased throttle response 1500RPM - 2500RPM is immediate and repeatable and is greatest when using hi-flow air filters and CAI.

You can also get better economy at the pump by using 95 instead of 98

With the Fuel rail kit and V6 Ground tuning I am currently running standard unleaded with barely noticeable difference

I hope that helps

Cheers, Barry

i know this is a very very old thread but i was just curious,
it says that you will be able run the car on 95ron instead of 98ron, but if its a 3rd gen how would it effect it at all as there is no knock sensor.

i know the knock sensor stuff has been covered a thousand times but i couldn't find anything that mentioned anything that included barry's mods and the knock sensor.

if its just coz this post is so old, or the mod has been upgraded or what not, just let me know.
just was a bit curious thats all.

i know this is a very very old thread but i was just curious,
it says that you will be able run the car on 95ron instead of 98ron, but if its a 3rd gen how would it effect it at all as there is no knock sensor.

98 Ron is generally regarded as the best all-round fuel, with more energy in the burn
The fuel rail tuning kit raises the temp of the fuel - and so increases the energy, and also gives a slight combustion timing advance

So, you can use Ron 95 and get similar or better performance than Ron 98

i know the knock sensor stuff has been covered a thousand times but i couldn't find anything that mentioned anything that included barry's mods and the knock sensor.

The tuning kit performs brilliantly in the 2nd Gen, where the combustion advance combines perfectly with the timing effects of the knock sensor

if its just coz this post is so old, or the mod has been upgraded or what not, just let me know.
just was a bit curious thats all.


Cheers, Barry

Hi Barry,

Just regarding my last PM unfortunetly my computer has shat itself and because of the holidays I won't be able to use my work one, so my mobile is the only way you can contact me.
Very keen on getting your kit as I have heard alot of positive things about it.

Cheers

Attila

Hi Barry,

Just regarding my last PM unfortunetly my computer has shat itself and because of the holidays I won't be able to use my work one, so my mobile is the only way you can contact me.
Very keen on getting your kit as I have heard alot of positive things about it.

Cheers

Attila

Hi Attila

Thanks for the mention

I will be getting more serious with the kits after the Xmas break - and I will let you know when I have a kit ready

The new kits have some minor improvements so will be well worth waiting for

Cheers, Barry

The new kits have some minor improvements so will be well worth waiting for

Cheers, Barry

Begs the question from a satisfied kit owner: What are the minor improvements ?

Also, I've never seen much information about your engine control switch. Can you please explain what it actually does ?

Thanks.

Begs the question from a satisfied kit owner: What are the minor improvements ?

There is a change to a slightly different alloy plus it is a little easier to fit

Also, I've never seen much information about your engine control switch. Can you please explain what it actually does ?

I discovered that the EGO sensor draws excessive current, even when it is no longer needed - so the EC switch reduces the current drain from the battery once the EGO sensor has reached operating temp

It also helps stabilise the EGO response, which can be seen if you have an EGO display

Thanks.
Barry

Would be interested in installing all three kits on my car Barry.

What is the pricing on the new kits, and i have a 2004 TL ES t/t, is it ok for this one?

Could you possibly PM me with a price to WA and i assume instructions come with.

Thanks and best regards,
birchy

Would be interested in installing all three kits on my car Barry.

What is the pricing on the new kits, and i have a 2004 TL ES t/t, is it ok for this one?

Could you possibly PM me with a price to WA and i assume instructions come with.

Thanks and best regards,
birchy

Hi Birchy

Pricing on all 3 kits incl deliv is $219.50, and yes they come with instructions
If you PM me with your details, I will organise everything for you

Thanks, Barry

Begs the question from a satisfied kit owner: What are the minor improvements ?

There is a change to a slightly different alloy plus it is a little easier to fit

Also, I've never seen much information about your engine control switch. Can you please explain what it actually does ?

I discovered that the EGO sensor draws excessive current, even when it is no longer needed - so the EC switch reduces the current drain from the battery once the EGO sensor has reached operating temp

It also helps stabilise the EGO response, which can be seen if you have an EGO display

Thanks.
I have read good things about your kits whilst reading through this forum, but until now I hadn't come across this thread. I would be extremely interested in these kits. Hopefully they would be ideal for my situation.

To understand what I have so far done to my magna, see http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52542

Probably a stupid question, but what is EGO?

EGO is exhaust gas oxygen.

I also fail to see how heating the fuel 'increases its energy' - heating the fuel actually causes its energy value to fall (fewer KJ/ml, KJ/Mol stays the same as we are comparing molecular weights - the energy value of a fuel is FIXED - even a basic senior highschool understanding of chemistry proves this), the decreased tailpipe soot is a byproduct of running the engine lean, not some magical benefit obtained using aluminium alloy and pixie dust.

Most people with a rudimentry understanding of fuel injection insulate the fuel rail - I had a Saab turbo that used to heat its fuel rail really well, it used to boil the fuel and vapour lock the stupid thing. Also used to ping its ass off before I ran a fuel COOLER.

Earthing kits are also similarly cast under the same cloud. The only thing of merit are the thermal insulating gaskets, but suggesting people remove the heater hoses off the throttle body will cause a nice buildup of PCV vapours inside.

EGO is exhaust gas oxygen.

I also fail to see how heating the fuel 'increases its energy' - heating the fuel actually causes its energy value to fall (fewer KJ/ml, KJ/Mol stays the same as we are comparing molecular weights - the energy value of a fuel is FIXED - even a basic senior highschool understanding of chemistry proves this), the decreased tailpipe soot is a byproduct of running the engine lean, not some magical benefit obtained using aluminium alloy and pixie dust.

Most people with a rudimentry understanding of fuel injection insulate the fuel rail - I had a Saab turbo that used to heat its fuel rail really well, it used to boil the fuel and vapour lock the stupid thing. Also used to ping its ass off before I ran a fuel COOLER.

Earthing kits are also similarly cast under the same cloud. The only thing of merit are the thermal insulating gaskets, but suggesting people remove the heater hoses off the throttle body will cause a nice buildup of PCV vapours inside.
As always HeathYoung, I am glad when you post replies on threads. You have another way of looking at things and always bring good information to the discussion.

I thought that the main reason car manufacturers ran the heater hoses through the throttle body, was to reduce the time it took for the engine to reach its operating temperature, from a cold start. Less time on choke.

But, I am sorry to ask, what is PCV?

I also fail to see how heating the fuel 'increases its energy' - heating the fuel actually causes its energy value to fall (fewer KJ/ml, KJ/Mol stays the same as we are comparing molecular weights - the energy value of a fuel is FIXED - even a basic senior highschool understanding of chemistry proves this), the decreased tailpipe soot is a byproduct of running the engine lean, not some magical benefit obtained using aluminium alloy and pixie dust.

Most people with a rudimentry understanding of fuel injection insulate the fuel rail - I had a Saab turbo that used to heat its fuel rail really well, it used to boil the fuel and vapour lock the stupid thing. Also used to ping its ass off before I ran a fuel COOLER.
.

In fact, during a dyno test on my car the plastic engine cover was removed and gave us a 2 hp increase ATW due to the reduction in temps around the fuel rail.

As always HeathYoung, I am glad when you post replies on threads. You have another way of looking at things and always bring good information to the discussion.

I thought that the main reason car manufacturers ran the heater hoses through the throttle body, was to reduce the time it took for the engine to reach its operating temperature, from a cold start. Less time on choke.

But, I am sorry to ask, what is PCV?

PCV is positive crankcase ventilation, oil vapours, water vapour etc that end up acidic or contaminate the oil are routed into the intake and burnt in the normal combustion cycle - the heater hoses are there for a few reasons - one is warmup time, another is to stop the PCV vapours condensing onto the throttlebody and reducing the bore diameter and making the throttle blade sticky.



Cheers
Heath Young

I also fail to see how heating the fuel 'increases its energy' - heating the fuel actually causes its energy value to fall (fewer KJ/ml, KJ/Mol stays the same as we are comparing molecular weights - the energy value of a fuel is FIXED - even a basic senior high school understanding of chemistry proves this), the decreased tailpipe soot is a byproduct of running the engine lean, not some magical benefit obtained using aluminium alloy and pixie dust

Yes, you are quite correct in your chemistry comments
I used the word “energy” to simplify the understanding of how the kit works, as many young magna owners would not have the experience of, say a course in that subject

The Fuel Rail Tuning kit was first developed when I fitted a high-flow air filter to my TJ2 and found a definite flat spot at around off-idle to 2500 rpm
This is because the original (restrictive) air filter forms part of the intake tuning – limiting the air going in gives an effective enrichment, as well as reducing emissions

I did a lot of research and found that heating the fuel by a specified amount causes the fuel to better combine with the intake air, giving improved combustion and noticeably better torque (and no more flat spot)

Actually what is happening is that the fuel is enriched in terms of air/fuel ratio, thus giving the improvement in torque AND the responsiveness of the improved combustion of the fuel

This is evident on a permanent EGO sensor display, which I use constantly in all my developments as I on-road test

In fact the response shows similar to what you would get with an accelerator pump
(I know – I didn’t believe it at first, either!)

Heating fuel for improvement has been around since before you and I were born – it’s just that engineers have been trying to do it across the whole rev range, whereas the Magna loss in power is best solved by doing it at the fuel rail
(I’ll have more to say about that later)
At higher revs than 3000, the kit transfers less heat thus giving cooler fuel injection

No, the kit does NOT cause the engine to run lean – just the opposite - in fact it is now so effective that you can now run your Magna in the lower rev range (and lower throttle opening) and still have the ‘pick-up’ that you should have, without the need to ‘tramp on it’

In fact, only recently I came across a reference to American Mitsubishi where the fuel is run below optimum temp in order to reduce fuel vapour emissions, and this is what gives excessive sooty deposits at the exhaust pipe

Of course now you can see that, when the whole design is implemented, that the engine is running better than before, with NO increase in raw fuel required

With more than 70 kits in use, the performance is well proven

Additional benefits are less soot and EGR deposits on spark plugs and soot than can clog up TB’s and mufflers

I’ll answer the rest of your post when I get some more time

Regards, Barry

Hmmm... I take it that you are talking better fuel atmomisation (and hence distribution) by increasing its temperature closer to that of its boiling point? Heating fuel will increase its volume, but decrease its energy per ml, effectivly reducing its octane rating, not increasing it. It will also cause the engine to run leaner.

EGO indicates how well the fuel is combining with the air (oxygen more specifically) in the combustion cycle - the fuel would burn better (more completely) if it were more atomised - in essence, giving the apparent effect of richening the mixture (shown as a lower oxygen content in the exhaust) without increasing the fuel consumption. Good, BUT have you measured EGT's with and without the kit installed - I would expect that EGT's would be higher with than without the kit (indicating leaner mixtures, despite what the EGO meter shows).

Fuelling higher (richer) during times of high IAT's is a good safety measure to prevent pinging and excessivly high EGT's - overfuelling is a good way to get borewash (ugh) - but if you have the fuel too hot, you risk some nasty stuff happening.

High EGT's despite a healthy looking EGO will still burn valves and put holes in pistons. Not that I am saying that this is an issue with your kit (I wouldn't think that it would have that much effect) but on engines running close to the edge (supercharged, with that massive hot manifold over the top of the rail, or turbocharged engines) the EGTs are already nasty enough. People have melted catalytic converters already with the SC kits - either running too rich - low EGT (but fuel lights off on the surface of the cat = melted cat) or too lean - excessive EGT's = melted cat.

I've played around with turbos for a while, and I can tell you what happens when EGT's go sky high :doubt: due to leanouts caused by boiled fuel in a rail.

Hmmm... I take it that you are talking better fuel atmomisation (and hence distribution) by increasing its temperature closer to that of its boiling point? Heating fuel will increase its volume, but decrease its energy per ml, effectivly reducing its octane rating, not increasing it. It will also cause the engine to run leaner

No, we are not talking about Octane rating of fuel (Mon, Ron) here
We are talking about the Octane that is part of the makeup of fuel:

“The atomised fuel is injected into the cylinder and the reduction in pressure changes this into a gas
It is only when heated that the fuel really starts to perform
The VAPOUR PRESSURE of OCTANE is less than 2kPa at 25 Deg C but increases to around 20 kPa at 70 Deg C”

i.e. you can’t have a vapour pressure of a number!

EGO indicates how well the fuel is combining with the air (oxygen more specifically) in the combustion cycle - the fuel would burn better (more completely) if it were more atomised - in essence, giving the apparent effect of richening the mixture (shown as a lower oxygen content in the exhaust) without increasing the fuel consumption. Good, BUT have you measured EGT's with and without the kit installed - I would expect that EGT's would be higher with than without the kit (indicating leaner mixtures, despite what the EGO meter shows)

No, there is no problem with EGT’s – it was quite obviously normal

Fuelling higher (richer) during times of high IAT's is a good safety measure to prevent pinging and excessivly high EGT's - overfuelling is a good way to get borewash (ugh) - but if you have the fuel too hot, you risk some nasty stuff happening.

No, again – no problems whatsoever

High EGT's despite a healthy looking EGO will still burn valves and put holes in pistons. Not that I am saying that this is an issue with your kit (I wouldn't think that it would have that much effect) but on engines running close to the edge (supercharged, with that massive hot manifold over the top of the rail, or turbocharged engines) the EGTs are already nasty enough. People have melted catalytic converters already with the SC kits - either running too rich - low EGT (but fuel lights off on the surface of the cat = melted cat) or too lean - excessive EGT's = melted cat.

There is MINIMAL interaction between the temp of the fuel rail and the surrounding items
like hot manifolds, but for safety margins and peace of mind in S/c applications I recommend that owners use insulative wrapping on the exposed fuel lines, thermal gaskets and the earthing/grounding kit

I've played around with turbos for a while, and I can tell you what happens when EGT's go sky high :doubt: due to leanouts caused by boiled fuel in a rail.

Remember, I have had these kits operating in member's cars for over 2 years - and no design problems
Cheers, Barry

Posted by Heath Young - post #51

"The only thing of merit are the thermal insulating gaskets, but suggesting people remove the heater hoses off the throttle body will cause a nice buildup of PCV vapours inside"

I have never suggested that people should do this - can you please clarify where you saw this mentioned

Thanks, Barry

Copping a bit of stick lately barry?

Copping a bit of stick lately barry?


Ever since you tried to shoot his Earthing kit down...

Answer to comments Posted by heathyoung

“Most people with a rudimentry understanding of fuel injection insulate the fuel rail - I had a Saab turbo that used to heat its fuel rail really well, it used to boil the fuel and vapour lock the stupid thing. Also used to ping its ass off before I ran a fuel COOLER

I have never said that my kits are specifically designed for forced induction applications – so I ask you to explain the nature and direction of your comments

My kits were designed for the average AMC’er who wants to gain some extra performance and have their Magna running as good as it can – but not with the risk and expense of turbos and S/chargers

However, now that you have brought the matter up, I would recommend that the thermal gasket kit and the earthing/grounding kit would aid substantially in stabilizing and improving the final outcome

Part of the reason why n/a Magnas respond so well to fuel modification is it’s common-rail transfer design – similar to what you find on high efficiency diesel injection systems – small feeder lines and LARGE supply lines in series formation - perfect for temperature optimization

Sorry to hear about your Saab turbo, but that is an entirely different set-up to the n/a Magna

“Earthing kits are also similarly cast under the same cloud. The only thing of merit are the thermal insulating gaskets,

Is that the Earthing kit that was featured in Performance Buildups magazine, and showed positive step by step DYNO results that doubters usually ask for?

- That was fitted to a magna ?
- That I have also proven in independent testing on my own TJ2 ?
- Under a cloud ? I don’t think so

“but suggesting people remove the heater hoses off the throttle body will cause a nice buildup of PCV vapours inside.”

Again, I must ask you where you got this from – as you must realise it is not good practice to do this

Barry

Answer to comments Posted by heathyoung[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]My kits were designed for the average AMC’er who wants to gain some extra performance and have their Magna running as good as it can – but not with the risk and expense of turbos and S/chargers


what risk ? what expense?

I'd love to enter this debate but i'm a bit busy pulling pieces of metal from the bores of my supercharged engine.

what risk ? what expense?

I'd love to enter this debate but i'm a bit busy pulling pieces of metal from the bores of my supercharged engine.

HA HA - GOLD :bowrofl:

Cheers

In fact, during a dyno test on my car the plastic engine cover was removed and gave us a 2 hp increase ATW due to the reduction in temps around the fuel rail.

Hi Knotched
Unless you actually measured the temp of the fuel in the rail, while insulating the temp sensor from the ambient air, you won't have a true reading

It's more likely that, by removing the cover you have allowed the hot air to soak the area around and onto the fuel rails - and actually raising it's temp

Cheers, Barry

It's more likely that, by removing the cover you have allowed the hot air to soak the area around and onto the fuel rails - and actually raising it's temp

[x] defies all common logic
[x] 2hp difference is runs is negligible

I'm not gonna involved in semantics, but I will report my experiences, I have had ALL of Barrys kits for some time now, and can only comment on them as a whole, as they were all done at once.

-Definantely noticed a difference in low-rpm throttle response/power, could hang onto taller gears a bit more often without feeling laboured. IMO the bum dyno is a rather inacurate tool for measing top-end power, but low-rpm response/feel is something that can be gauged fairly accurately. This was with a k&n panel filter.

-To be honest I can't remember too clearly about exhaust drone or tailpipe soot, as I got a straight-through rear muffler not long after the kits, and then re-did the whole exhaust. But I can say tailpipe soot seems at a minimum in general.

-I think I can say with some authority fuel-rail overheating is NOT an issue with Barry's kit. I've done a number of full track days, including an absolute scorcher with 40 deg ambient, no issues. If thrashing around a track all day in 40 deg temp isn't a good enough test, I don't know what is.

- I recently recorded 140 front wheel kw with just a full exhaust. From memory Mike (Black Beard) got a similar result with basic bolt-ons and Barry's kits. Now I don't consider this concrete proof, as there are few variables. However given these results I would not be surprised of Barry's kits do indeed add a few kw up top.

Now to be honest back when I was contemplating getting Barry's kits, I was on the skeptical side, thinking the claimed benefits would be so negligible they would be intangible. But I decided to take a punt on a couple of undred bucks and give Barry a go. The results impressed me, I can wholeheartedly recomend Barry's kits.

[x] defies all common logic
[x] 2hp difference is runs is negligible

Exactly...


My 2c on the hot vs cold fuel is, warming the fuel may increase power, but only because the AFR's will be leaner than the factory rich tune. Warm fuel is more vaporised when injected, meaning it is less dense for given mass. Cold fuel will be more dense, giving a richer AFR on the same tune, although it will cool the inlet air before the valve as it is injected (doesnt work on direct injection).
I think the best setup for power would be a cold fuel setup with hot plugs. If you use the coldest/most dense air/fuel, and expand it with residual heat form the last combustion (hot piston crown or spark plug) then you'll get the highest cylinder pressures.

Chisholm, how much is Barry paying you for the advertising? :P J/k mate lol.

[x] defies all common logic
[x] 2hp difference is runs is negligible

Hi piv

Well, the Magna engine itself often defies common logic :badgrin:

It depends on how it was done - was the cover removed while the engine was still running, or was it done in 2 runs , allowing heat soak

If it gained 2 hp, was it done while monitoring fuel temp...

Was the bonnet up or down at each run...

Was there a cooling fan in use at each run...

Exactly...


My 2c on the hot vs cold fuel is, warming the fuel may increase power, but only because the AFR's will be leaner than the factory rich tune. Warm fuel is more vaporised when injected, meaning it is less dense for given mass. Cold fuel will be more dense, giving a richer AFR on the same tune, although it will cool the inlet air before the valve as it is injected (doesnt work on direct injection).
I think the best setup for power would be a cold fuel setup with hot plugs. If you use the coldest/most dense air/fuel, and expand it with residual heat form the last combustion (hot piston crown or spark plug) then you'll get the highest cylinder pressures.

Chisholm, how much is Barry paying you for the advertising? :P J/k mate lol.


Well after 2 1/2 years of research and trials in real world conditions, my view is that the improvement gained in combustion from better vaporised fuel far outweighs that which could be gained by a cold charge and a hot plug

You would get quenching of the flame front and a sooty combustion

Hot plugs can give the possibility of hot spots, causing pre-ignition

Unless, of course you are under the assumption that hot plugs PROVIDE heat to the combustion - they don't - they are rated to operate in a desired temp range that already exists in the combustion chamber

They are also there eg for helping to burn off EGR deposits, as compared to the 3.0L 3G V6w/o EGR which runs a colder plug

Why did you mention payment! - now I'll have to send him a six-pack at least !! lol

Hot plugs can give the possibility of hot spots, causing pre-ignition

Unless, of course you are under the assumption that hot plugs PROVIDE heat to the combustion - they don't - they are rated to operate in a desired temp range that already exists in the combustion chamber

They are also there eg for helping to burn off EGR deposits, as compared to the 3.0L 3G V6w/o EGR which runs a colder plug


The ralliart magna runs the same "heat" range (1 range colder) plugs as the 3.0L 24valve magna engine.

Now i wont go in to details on here as to why we used colder plugs in the ralliart but i can assure you after many many hours on the development dyno at MMAL we decided to go the one range colder on the ralliarts because of the "possiblity" of thrashing/continual high revs the ralliart might be subjected to.

Well after 2 1/2 years of research and trials in real world conditions, my view is that the improvement gained in combustion from better vaporised fuel far outweighs that which could be gained by a cold charge and a hot plug

You would get quenching of the flame front and a sooty combustion

Hot plugs can give the possibility of hot spots, causing pre-ignition

Unless, of course you are under the assumption that hot plugs PROVIDE heat to the combustion - they don't - they are rated to operate in a desired temp range that already exists in the combustion chamber

They are also there eg for helping to burn off EGR deposits, as compared to the 3.0L 3G V6w/o EGR which runs a colder plug

Why did you mention payment! - now I'll have to send him a six-pack at least !! lol

How would the flame front quenching occur? The same as water/methanol injection?
There should be no combustion occuring at the next inlet stroke, otherwise we'd get backfiring.

Hot plugs increase combustion chamber temperatures, by means of less heat dissipation. :nuts: Each range up or down has the ability to alter the combustion chamber temps from around 60-100degrees C. Learn how they work before commenting pls.

The ralliart magna runs the same "heat" range (1 range colder) plugs as the 3.0L 24valve magna engine.

Now i wont go in to details on here as to why we used colder plugs in the ralliart but i can assure you after many many hours on the development dyno at MMAL we decided to go the one range colder on the ralliarts because of the "possiblity" of thrashing/continual high revs the ralliart might be subjected to.


because of the "possiblity" of thrashing/continual high revs
That sounds like one good reason to me

what risk ? what expense?

I'd love to enter this debate but i'm a bit busy pulling pieces of metal from the bores of my supercharged engine.


hahaha broken pistons lol


you dont need a fuel rail kit.... the fuel with a sprintex kit on the car is heated up enough....


come to think of it... the whole engine bay gets well done thanks to the hot plate

what you need is an engine bay airconditioner :P

I also fail to see how heating the fuel 'increases its energy' - heating the fuel actually causes its energy value to fall (fewer KJ/ml, KJ/Mol stays the same as we are comparing molecular weights - the energy value of a fuel is FIXED - even a basic senior high school understanding of chemistry proves this), the decreased tailpipe soot is a byproduct of running the engine lean, not some magical benefit obtained using aluminium alloy and pixie dust

Yes, you are quite correct in your chemistry comments
I used the word “energy” to simplify the understanding of how the kit works, as many young magna owners would not have the experience of, say a course in that subject

The Fuel Rail Tuning kit was first developed when I fitted a high-flow air filter to my TJ2 and found a definite flat spot at around off-idle to 2500 rpm
This is because the original (restrictive) air filter forms part of the intake tuning – limiting the air going in gives an effective enrichment, as well as reducing emissions

I did a lot of research and found that heating the fuel by a specified amount causes the fuel to better combine with the intake air, giving improved combustion and noticeably better torque (and no more flat spot)

Actually what is happening is that the fuel is enriched in terms of air/fuel ratio, thus giving the improvement in torque AND the responsiveness of the improved combustion of the fuel

This is evident on a permanent EGO sensor display, which I use constantly in all my developments as I on-road test

In fact the response shows similar to what you would get with an accelerator pump
(I know – I didn’t believe it at first, either!)

Heating fuel for improvement has been around since before you and I were born – it’s just that engineers have been trying to do it across the whole rev range, whereas the Magna loss in power is best solved by doing it at the fuel rail
(I’ll have more to say about that later)
At higher revs than 3000, the kit transfers less heat thus giving cooler fuel injection

No, the kit does NOT cause the engine to run lean – just the opposite - in fact it is now so effective that you can now run your Magna in the lower rev range (and lower throttle opening) and still have the ‘pick-up’ that you should have, without the need to ‘tramp on it’

In fact, only recently I came across a reference to American Mitsubishi where the fuel is run below optimum temp in order to reduce fuel vapour emissions, and this is what gives excessive sooty deposits at the exhaust pipe

Of course now you can see that, when the whole design is implemented, that the engine is running better than before, with NO increase in raw fuel required

With more than 70 kits in use, the performance is well proven

Additional benefits are less soot and EGR deposits on spark plugs and soot than can clog up TB’s and mufflers

I’ll answer the rest of your post when I get some more time

Regards, Barry

sorry i dont see the point of heating the fuel rail either, the fuel is constantly being returned to tank, so it would take friggin ages to heat it ALL upto what ever temp you are chasing, sorry but id like to see dyno sheet with/without before id put money on it.

'Barry' has been absent for a long time now as far as i know, so good luck trying to get an answer bud

No real point to be honest in dragging this up after 2 years, is not adding to the arguement