We have a TP Mitsubishi Mangna (Carby) That has had a real bad day with Carbys, and were researching the idea of fitting a Weber to it instead as we have heard good things about them on the Astron engines. So far the most recomended Weber seems to be the 32/36 or the 36/36.
I haver also noticed reading around the forum that a few people seem to me using Ford XF 4.1 Carbys too. Our Aim for the upgrade is also to gain more power, and stop it chewing fuel as it is now.

I had been concidering the option of converting to EFI before the option of "Webering" the car up with a new Carby. So I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction on where to go from here?

:shock: What Weber Carby do I Use, The 32/36, The 36/36, Or the Ford XF 4.1?

:shock: Is the XF Weber easy to pick? Are all XF 4.1 Carbys The correct Weber one to grab?

:shock: What option is better, The EFI, The Weber 32/36, Or the XF 4.1 (Rejetted)? EG Power, economy ect?

:shock: How had is it to fit the TPS to the Weber carbies?

Thanks in advance! :cool:

Gday Halo

Earlier this year i was left in a similar position to what you are currently in at the moment. After some of my own research and some help from others here on these forums i managed to install a 32/36 Weber DGAV (waterheated choke). Others on these forums have installed 34 ADM webbers off xf falcons and a few others have switched the EFI system over to previously carb-ed cars

I think in terms of power and economy, EFI is by far the best option you can go for... be warned its a rather intensive install process (you will need to cut and switch half the EFI loom, change manifolds / cat convertor over to EFI revision, replace the original fuel tank with a EFI tank). Get a cheap EFI wreck and some beer time and you would be laughing

From what ive heard he 34 ADM weber conversion is easy. All thats required is an adaptor plate, a new airfilter assembly (or modify the original to suit) and with some small modifications you can get the stock magna throttle cam and TPS to fit. Get the jetting right and these carbs will make the Astron II shine. You can pick up a 34 ADM off any xf wreck for cheap (under $100) plus a reconditioning kit for another $30. Id say this upgrade would be good if your after decent high end power without the hassles of EFI

From my experience installing the 32/36 DGAV was very easy. All thats really needed is to get an adaptor plate + airfilter assembly, get the water heated choke (DGAV's) tapped into the heater lines (retaining drivability for those early risers out there), and the magna throttle cam and TPS can be modded to fit. While your tuning you dont really need to worry about jet sizes (im still using the stock jets and im getting decent fuel economy and power when needed). Installation is pretty much identical to the 34ADM. You can pick up a 32/36 weber off any 2ltr escort / cortina wreck for under $100 plus the $30 for a re-con kit. I beleive this carby is ideal when you want a replacement carb for the Astron. Id say this carb has more power and economy over the Mikuni. plus recondition kits are very cheap off the shelf. This is a simple carby that can be serviced by the novice.

Check this thread out for some interesting reading: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18161

Have Fun

-Wagon*

Hiya Wagon! Thx for the reply! :bowrofl: How much more "Zing" did you get from your Weber?

The XF sounds good, but there still seems to be some debate over what jets to use in it, and worse still, many seem to be having trouble getting the jets.
I'm thinking maybe the 32/36 may be the way to go, but still a little scared of the TPS issue. I don't expect there will be a shaft ready and waiting on the Weber, and if there is, I really don't expect that it will mech with the TP TPS. Someone mentioned that it had to be cut off a orig carby and welded on, ouch!

I hear the orig carbys on the Magnas are 32/35, whats the real diffrence between these and the 32/36's (Aside from 1mm lol). I would have expected the more complicated units (like the orig) would have performed better than the simple Webers.

Thanks again

Well i would say that i got more zing from the 32/36 than i did from the mikuni, well from looking at the mikuni's design is not hard to do either. I think its simplicity is its key to been a much better carburettor, and despite been simple they still retain decent fuel circuits. Even with stock jets my 32/36 has hardly any hesitation through the entire rev range (if anything the top end could be a little better, but i think a jet change on the secondarys would fix that) Also the webers do away with most of the emission controls anyways (hot idle compensator, Air injection system, EGR :redface: ect ect) so theres less smog related stuff bogging it down. In the end you get a much simpler, but better performing system after a weber conversion

In relation to the TPS a little bit of good ol DIY could fix that. All you need to do is weld on an extra shaft (to suit the TPS) to the primary throttle shaft on the opposite side of carb to where the throttle cam is situated. Then you can get some tin sheeting or some steel flat bar and bend that to suit (so that it can be bolted to the carb or the air cleaner assembly) Bolt the TPS to that and then tinker with its positioning in relation to the shaft to get it to work properly. If you need any more detail on what happens here you might have to get into contact with one of the auto boys... most of my experience has been with the manuals

Driving the 32/36 is fun. In combination with a set of extractors and the manual trannie it pulls hard from 2000 rpm up. Its something to keep in mind if you do alot of towing / carting around alot of gear whilst trying to keep economy in hindsight.

-Wagon*

OK sounds good! Thanks :D
Is there anywhere to add the fast idle for the AC?

ummm... On the 34ADM's yes... on the 32/36's no.

It was something I was looking for when I installed my 32/36 but i found that the engine still runs the same anyways. The idle step up is there to prevent the engine from stalling out but the 32/36 has an anti-stall valve installed so stalling out shouldnt be a problem. If your concerned thou you can always compromise by just upping the idle by 50 - 100 rpms to counteract the air-con compressor kick-in if you want.

-Wagon*

I think in terms of power and economy, EFI is by far the best option you can go for... be warned its a rather intensive install process (you will need to cut and switch half the EFI loom, change manifolds / cat convertor over to EFI revision, replace the original fuel tank with a EFI tank). Get a cheap EFI wreck and some beer time and you would be laughing
It isnt quite that bad.
The EFI loom plugs in on the passenger side under the dash.
The EFI fuel pump goes straight into the tank (as long as it is an unleaded model), but lines need to be modified.
The entire exhaust needs to be replaces up until the rear muffler. The rear muffler has a flange foward of it, undo it there.

Of course, you need all the EFI goodies, apart from that it isnt too bad (as far as a major job goes).

It isnt quite that bad.
The EFI loom plugs in on the passenger side under the dash.
The EFI fuel pump goes straight into the tank (as long as it is an unleaded model), but lines need to be modified.
The entire exhaust needs to be replaces up until the rear muffler. The rear muffler has a flange foward of it, undo it there.

Of course, you need all the EFI goodies, apart from that it isnt too bad (as far as a major job goes).


Thanks Guys, OK ***Calling All Carby To EFI Buffs!***

Done some research at the wreakers today, I currently have a TM (Thats the late version, Unleaded) that I have already converted from Manual to TP Auto trans. Also had to a small reabuild on the trans a few weeks after I installed it by changing the valve body and trans oil filter. All good now! Also converted it from a standard dash to a electronic dash too.

This is project three! EFI. It seems the bolt holes are there for the air cleaner, but no holes for the EFI fuel filter, I may just use the single hole that the current filter uses instead, or drill some. How did you guys get around this?

Also found the same issues with the exhaust pipe, the EFI exhaust manafold is almost a set of extractors, this should be a small improvement before I even start, I'll do that as stage one and install the EFI exhaust system first, that way the car can still go back on the road untill I get all the parts for the EFI.

Stage two will be the wiring loom, again I can pretty much install all this, and the computer while the car still runs on the carby with no power fed to the computer. I do need a little advice here as the car has had a Carby TP Auto trans fitted that has diffrent gear ratios to the EFI version, thus I won't be able to fit a EFI Trans computer as the computer will get the wrong speeds off the two pulse generators. Bugga! the one interconneted bit from looking over the diagrammes is the TPS, it connects to both the EFI computer (All three pins, thats 5v, Gnd, and signal out), and the Auto trans computer (Just the signal pin) am I right here? Do I just dissconect the 5v and gnd pins from the Trans computer, then tap all three onto the EFI computer, leaving the signal pin on the Trans computer too?

Stage Three will be the main EFI install, here I have a major issue with the fuel line, on the TM it does appear to have the newer fuel tank with the two panels (One for pump, one for gauge) but the main fuel feed line has bare ends to rubber hoes and a hose clamp on the TM (and I gues all the other models that are carby), and on the TP EFI, it has screw on fittings on both ends of the fuel line (High pressure), also it is longer in the engine bay reaching almost all the way over to the drivers side, instead of stopping near the wiper moter. How did you guys get around this? I "Could" remove the TP fuel line but by looking at it, I recon the screw on fitting won't pass through the small gap between the firewall and the front crossmember (Or what ever that thick beam is). And wouldn't be able to fit it on the TM for the same reason. Maybe undoing the crossmember a little and jacking the car up will allow me to pass the fitting through the gap? Or did you just add the fittings to the existing fuel line?

Be greatly appreciative of any help you can all provide here. I Know its a big job, but so was the Trans convertion, and this is proberly a little easier really (Me hopes).
I got a good deal from a wreaker here to provide a "Kit Package" of all the parts for the convertion for $180. Heres the list I have come up with so far:

Inlet man. Knock sensor. Mas sensor. Air cleaner. Fuel pump. Fuel line. Ignitor. Distributer. Loom. Exhaust man. Exhaust pipe. Main computer. Fuel computer. Fuel filter. Throttle Body. Purge Tank.

Thanks agin for all your input, it's a great help. :D

what happened to your old manual gearbox?

We chucked it, It was a TM Manual for a starter, and secondly the syncro was stuffed on 2nd and 3rd. It was stauffed since I got it 5 years ago, but I learned to drive it. I just used two fingers on the gearshift to change into those gears, when it was ready to change, it changed. was painful waiting up to 2 seconds for the shift from first to second!
I also got lazy and just wanted a easier car to drive, now I want a little of the power back by adding EFI! The TP Trans is sweet, I was warned off the TM and TN trans rather strongly!

Ok, Am I heading for a problem, a few threads here are mentioning that the EFI heads are diffrent to the carby ones, EG Higher compression on the EFI (9:1, as a pose to 8.8:1 on the carbies). I have replaced the head twice on the TM now and no one ever asked if it was a EFI or Carb, is there any way of telling the diffrence from the outside? What have I got, and if I do have a 8.8:1 head, will this cause issues for EFI? HELP! :shock:

with an uneducated guess, couldnt you just shave the carby head to get that higher compression?

Ah yes, but is it a carby head!?

I seriously doubt that the difference in compression between the heads will cause problems for the EFI from working properly. To my knoledge the EFI heads in the 1st gens were of the same CR of the carbies (8.8:1) only change in compression was in the EFI revision of the Astron II in the TR series 2 magna (with a CR of 9.0:1) but i think that there may be something different in the piston design or somehting... i beleive Astron Boy may have a little more info regarding this. In the end its only a difference of .2 in the CR, so any loss is gonna be somewhat minimal.

-Wagon*

Thx again Wagon. Anyone got any light to shed on my "extended" post on page 1? :D

First gens are identical internally, regardless of injection system.

I'm changing my exhaust manifold over to the EFI gear, as the carby one was cracked. (No suprises) So far, the only problems I've encountered were from the sedan to wagon changes.

I am actually writing a detailed tutorial for this to put on my wiki shortly but here goes:


This is project three! EFI. It seems the bolt holes are there for the air cleaner, but no holes for the EFI fuel filter, I may just use the single hole that the current filter uses instead, or drill some. How did you guys get around this?

The two bolt holes are there for the EFI air filter, there is a third one which mounts to the engine mount. Some cars have a bracket which mounts to the engine mount, some the actual engine mount is different. In the latest conversion job I have done I just used the 2 front bolts to do it as the engine mount didnt have a hole for the bracket.

You can bolt one of the holes through for the EFI filter (same as the carby one), but the bottom hole is there on carby TPs, just not threaded.



Also found the same issues with the exhaust pipe, the EFI exhaust manafold is almost a set of extractors, this should be a small improvement before I even start, I'll do that as stage one and install the EFI exhaust system first, that way the car can still go back on the road untill I get all the parts for the EFI.

You will need to exhaust from the manifold through to the flange before the rear muffler (it unbolts there). The carby uses a split join in the middle, the EFI has flange joints onto the cat.



Stage two will be the wiring loom, again I can pretty much install all this, and the computer while the car still runs on the carby with no power fed to the computer. I do need a little advice here as the car has had a Carby TP Auto trans fitted that has diffrent gear ratios to the EFI version, thus I won't be able to fit a EFI Trans computer as the computer will get the wrong speeds off the two pulse generators. Bugga! the one interconneted bit from looking over the diagrammes is the TPS, it connects to both the EFI computer (All three pins, thats 5v, Gnd, and signal out), and the Auto trans computer (Just the signal pin) am I right here? Do I just dissconect the 5v and gnd pins from the Trans computer, then tap all three onto the EFI computer, leaving the signal pin on the Trans computer too?

Here is the complete ***** of the job. I used a loom from another car, it unplugs just behind the dash (on TP anyway). To do it properly you will need to remove the dash, passenger kick panel and blower.

The EFI only uses the speed pulse generator which screws into the old speedo cable connection, so wrong signals shouldnt be an issue there.

The ECU and Transmission control share wiring, so you should be OK with anything there - problem is though if you have a TM/N non-EFI gearbox an auto TN EFI or TP wiring harness wont plug in AFAIK!



Stage Three will be the main EFI install, here I have a major issue with the fuel line, on the TM it does appear to have the newer fuel tank with the two panels (One for pump, one for gauge) but the main fuel feed line has bare ends to rubber hoes and a hose clamp on the TM (and I gues all the other models that are carby), and on the TP EFI, it has screw on fittings on both ends of the fuel line (High pressure), also it is longer in the engine bay reaching almost all the way over to the drivers side, instead of stopping near the wiper moter. How did you guys get around this? I "Could" remove the TP fuel line but by looking at it, I recon the screw on fitting won't pass through the small gap between the firewall and the front crossmember (Or what ever that thick beam is). And wouldn't be able to fit it on the TM for the same reason. Maybe undoing the crossmember a little and jacking the car up will allow me to pass the fitting through the gap? Or did you just add the fittings to the existing fuel line?

Two options here - proper and hard and fast:
1. Install all the fuel lines from the donor car (proper)
2. Cut the fuel lines off the donor down from the screw connector. Use high pressure rubber nhose and clamps to join it to the car and screw connector. You need to do the same up front with the filter. I did this after getting the idea from a Nissan Pintara, that is exactly how their EFI system is done :)

Ok, Am I heading for a problem, a few threads here are mentioning that the EFI heads are diffrent to the carby ones, EG Higher compression on the EFI (9:1, as a pose to 8.8:1 on the carbies). I have replaced the head twice on the TM now and no one ever asked if it was a EFI or Carb, is there any way of telling the diffrence from the outside? What have I got, and if I do have a 8.8:1 head, will this cause issues for EFI? HELP! :shock:

TM-P heads are all basically the same and have 8.8:1 compression ratio. There is no problem using a carby head on EFI and vice versa.

The compression changed in the TR/S - carby was 8.8:1 and EFI 9.2:1 (this is why when I rebuild my car it will be getting a TR/S head). these are marked M8/M9.

First gens are identical internally, regardless of injection system.

I'm changing my exhaust manifold over to the EFI gear, as the carby one was cracked. (No suprises) So far, the only problems I've encountered were from the sedan to wagon changes.

The EFI ones crack too but are easier to weld.

I am interested if you get a performace gain, if you do I might just change my exhaust from cat back and leave the front section stock :)

I seriously doubt that the difference in compression between the heads will cause problems for the EFI from working properly. To my knoledge the EFI heads in the 1st gens were of the same CR of the carbies (8.8:1) only change in compression was in the EFI revision of the Astron II in the TR series 2 magna (with a CR of 9.0:1) but i think that there may be something different in the piston design or somehting... i beleive Astron Boy may have a little more info regarding this. In the end its only a difference of .2 in the CR, so any loss is gonna be somewhat minimal.

-Wagon*
Actually the combustion chambers are slightly different in TR/S EFI heads. When I pull my head off my donor engine, I will take a piccy of it for y'all.

The ECU and Transmission control share wiring, so you should be OK with anything there - problem is though if you have a TM/N non-EFI gearbox an auto TN EFI or TP wiring harness wont plug in AFAIK!


Two options here - proper and hard and fast:
1. Install all the fuel lines from the donor car (proper)
2. Cut the fuel lines off the donor down from the screw connector. Use high pressure rubber nhose and clamps to join it to the car and screw connector. You need to do the same up front with the filter. I did this after getting the idea from a Nissan Pintara, that is exactly how their EFI system is done :)


But on high pressure lines, wouldn't these hose clamps blow off?
I would rather replace the lines completely, but I'm afraid I may not be able to get the EFI line out, or get it into the TM through that gap?

But on high pressure lines, wouldn't these hose clamps blow off?
I would rather replace the lines completely, but I'm afraid I may not be able to get the EFI line out, or get it into the TM through that gap?
That is what I thought would happen, but I looked at an injected Pintara and that is how it is done. I used the type that screw down and screwed them tight. It still doesnt leak.

At the rear of the car, because the carby line is rubber and the line from the fuel pump on EFI is rubber, I cut a long bit of metal fuel line (8cm or so), inserted it in each one and clamped the hell out of it with those hose clamps to make a hose joiner :p

It sounds dodgy but it works.

Replacing the fuel lines *may* involve removing the fuel tank, but then again considering the amount of work involved in the rest - it aint that bad. The fuel lines run under the car too, there isnt really a gap for them to go into :)

Replacing the fuel lines *may* involve removing the fuel tank, but then again considering the amount of work involved in the rest - it aint that bad. The fuel lines run under the car too, there isnt really a gap for them to go into :)

The gap I'm talking about is the gap between the main beam that runs along the bottom of the firewall, in the engine bay. Where the fuel lines go from running along the underside of the car, then turn "Up" into the engine bay. They follow the floor lining, then come up through a small gap between the lining and the support beam. This is where I recon the fittings may not fit through. I remember having to run the Trans cable through that gap and it was a major pain in the butt.

The gap I'm talking about is the gap between the main beam that runs along the bottom of the firewall, in the engine bay. Where the fuel lines go from running along the underside of the car, then turn "Up" into the engine bay. They follow the floor lining, then come up through a small gap between the lining and the support beam. This is where I recon the fittings may not fit through. I remember having to run the Trans cable through that gap and it was a major pain in the butt.
I know the lines you are talking about now. If you feed it from the front it should be OK, the fitting at the back is on a rubber hose.

I know why I did it the way I did now - laziness LOL

I thought both ends had a hose on them, if you remove the hose that leaves you with a threaded nut on each end, proberly the same type on both ends. Wouldn't it be easier to thread the line in from the middle of the car. Then its just the bit that sits in the engine bay that needs to be thread in past the gap?

Has anyone tried this, do both the pressue lines and the return lines need to be fitted, or just use the existing return?

I thought both ends had a hose on them, if you remove the hose that leaves you with a threaded nut on each end, proberly the same type on both ends. Wouldn't it be easier to thread the line in from the middle of the car. Then its just the bit that sits in the engine bay that needs to be thread in past the gap?

Has anyone tried this, do both the pressue lines and the return lines need to be fitted, or just use the existing return?

The rear is clamped anyways, there isnt a threaded nut. There is a rubber hose from the fuel lines with the threaded nut on that. The front the threaded nut is on the metal (well that is how my factory EFI Elante TN is done).

The return lines are the same, you just need a slightly longer rubber hose than the carby one at the engine end.

OK Kool, Thx man.

Would I be right in saying the TM wont have a hole to allow cold air into the air intake behind the battery. I did have a peek at mine but saw no hole, mind you it would still suck freash air around the headlight ass.

Also has anyone got any idea where I take the 5v feed for the TPS (Throttle position) from? Either The ECU or the TCU

Would I be right in saying the TM wont have a hole to allow cold air into the air intake behind the battery. I did have a peek at mine but saw no hole, mind you it would still suck freash air around the headlight ass.

My Carby TM has the hole between headlight n battery, but its plugged with some rubber thing.
Not that it bothers me, since i get my air from the other side at the moment :P

OK Kool, Thx man.

Would I be right in saying the TM wont have a hole to allow cold air into the air intake behind the battery. I did have a peek at mine but saw no hole, mind you it would still suck freash air around the headlight ass.

Also has anyone got any idea where I take the 5v feed for the TPS (Throttle position) from? Either The ECU or the TCU
I'd replace the engine harness, no need to worry where to get it from then - taken care of by Mitsi

I'd replace the engine harness, no need to worry where to get it from then - taken care of by Mitsi


I wish it were that easy! There's the orig TM wiring, then part of the TP loom for Auto trans. I'm afraid I'll have to raid another TP at the yard and seperate the EFI wiring and add that to the rest.

I wish it were that easy! There's the orig TM wiring, then part of the TP loom for Auto trans. I'm afraid I'll have to raid another TP at the yard and seperate the EFI wiring and add that to the rest.
That does make it hard.
I know when I did my last Carby to EFI Conversion (TP to TP), I just replaced the engine harness :)

As for the 5volt for the TPS, I dont think it would matter too much

I'd recommend replacing the entire harness, with one from a TN rather than trying to patch them all together.

Though, mine is going to be a bastardisation, as I can only get a TP harness, and they don't always align to the TN interior harnesses. (I kept my modified wagon harness, though.)