Hey,

I've got a 98 TF Sports and I've noticed (pretty much since I bought it) that there's this bizzare steering problem with it... It kinda pulls with the contours or lines in the road... For example, if there's a ditch or a bump in the road, the steering will pull into the ditch and I'd have to pull the wheel back to steer out of it. As a result, it feels like i'm driving on some crappy dirt road out west, when it's local streets or highways!!

I've drawn a pic to try and explain it better... How it pulls with the shapes/bumps in the road.. Anyway, I know it's not right, cause we have other magnas/cars that I've driven that don't do it... Hell, even my old '89 Falcon didn't do it!

Also, while i'm here (it might be related) the ride is as bumpy as all crap (i know it's a sports, but you can feel every little bump you go over).

So you reckon it's a problem with the power steering? Or suspension? or something else? I've already been to 2 mechanics, who "couldn't find anything wrong" or said "it's cause it's a sports model", and also took it to a tyre shop who said "it's just cause the roads are crap". Ideas?

Cheers,

BOZ

Ur kidding right?

Its called gravity....

It's called tramlining. Every car will do it. Cars with hard suspension will do it more so. Everyday on the way to work I stop at some lights where the road has been repaired, and the seem is maybe 1cm high. But it pulls the steering wheel like a mofo. It use to do a bit stock, but does it more so lowered.

To fix it, put really **** shocks in it and have your car handle like a boat. But most people accept the tramlining.

so your saying every car does it? funny, cause my old man has a KJ verada and it doesn't, my mum has a TL Magna and it doesn't... I even owned a VL Calais with superlow suspension, and it still didn't get carried off into the ditches and **** like my sports does. I've driven heaps of cars, hell even the new 380, and none of them pull the steering around like mine.

I think you guys might be thinkin of something else... Cause i know it aint right... Anyone else with a TF sports experience the same problem?

BOZ

it sounds like tramlining, but it sounds more severe than normal.. have you taken it to a suspension place?

When was the last time you got a four wheel alignment done? If it wasn't recently it could be worth doing.. poor alignment can lead to all kinds of weird handling problems. Also, perhaps make sure your tyre pressure is reasonable.

ok, cheers cthulhu... that's pretty much pointed me in the right direction

I'll book it in tomorrow to the local suspension place, see if they can help me out

get a wheel alignment sounds like you have toe out my maverick was following the road so i got it checked and it was 12mm toe out it should of been 2mm toe in...

My Tf sports dosent do what you have said ( I bought it new) but yes you feel every bump in the road , if you think thats bad go and get a commodore with fe2 suspension ( sports cops use and you fell like your back on a push bike with no suspension)

incredible...i just got on here to post almost the same thing......my KJ seems very "sensitive" to contours in the road, I have trouble relaxing behind the wheel, feels like it is going to go off the road at times.......

BUT....i have payed very close attention to how the entire car reacts to certain situations.

When leaving work the other day, I took notice of how the steering reacted when I pulled out of the driveway, front wheels went down into the gutter....sterring wheel wobbled from left to right.....not unusual, I know all FWD do it....but this was alot worse to what ive experienced...(ive had 4 FWD cars)....then, creeping out, the back wheels went into the gutter.....STRANGE...the steering wheel wobbled left and right again....even going out my dirt driveway.....which is quite uneven, the steering is pulling all over the place......

Now, before I did the gutter test (you know the normal gutter thingi thats on all driveways)...I took it to Launnie Mitsu, got the Service Manager to take it for a spin......mind you...he took it for a 4 minute drive, on some of the smoothest roads in launnie, (down invermay road, out onto the highway (northern inlet), along forster street, back to mitsu).....he got out of the car, went around and pushed up and down on all four corners of the car, looked at the wheels (tyres).....and said...the tryes on the front seem very flat accross the tread, not as rounded as the back ones (which are almost at legal wear limit)....then said he reckoned it was the tyres that were making the car seem "lively" on the road.....he booked it in for a wheel align.......and it didnt make any difference whatsoever.

now...since then I have also done a simple check......I got hold of one of the front wheels, and with all my strenght, pulled the wheel left to right like trying to turn the steering by hand.......I was getting about 4 different clunking\knocking sounds.......is this normal? - I am expecting mitsu to say yes....gee they even think the grinding type noise I get in the front brakes at times(which have new pads) is "normal"

oh, and dont forget, the KJ's have really soft suspention, so it has nothing to do with stiff suspention

Im taking the car back in tomorrow and gonna have another chat with the Service Manager, gonna change the tyres from front to back to rule out "the front tyres being quite flat accros the tread"......geez, ive heard some wierd things, but that takes the cake! - all tyres are standard size

I used to mention to my missus as to how well my old TJ handled, how the bumps in the road hardly affected it....but the KJ is really starting to peev me off!

There is one other thing happening in the front end, so ill mention it here.......EVERY time after starting the car, and putting it into drive - I travel about 5-6-7 metres, and I get a noise in the front left hand side........now this happens every single time the car is started, and i start to move off, it never ever does it if i just start the car and leave it idling - i let it idle for a couple minutes the other day...and it didnt do it until i started to move off.......i never does it when travelling - Service Manager said it is the ABS pump priming itself.....does this sound right?

So what do yu's all think?......not about my mega long post...but with whats happening to my beloved car?

OKAY!!!...I just Googled the term "tramline" this is one thing it returned...intersting!

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_879/article.html

and another:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=47

but i dont think this addresses why my steering is so sensitive a LOW speeds.....these articles refer to highway travel....nor does it seem to indicate why my steering is so affected by the rear wheels (remember where i mentioned the gutter) - oh, and the tyres on the front a in near new condition

Increased castor angel can make tramlining more noticeable.
And with the turning, the wheels by hand its not unuasual to here a knocks, which are usually isolated whilst driving, what you actually want to look for is "play" in the tierod ends, ball joints, wheel bearings, and control arm bushes

Just thought i'd put this in too......this wa in the last link i posted



Imagine a worn suspension that allows a front wheel and tire to swing between the recommended 1/16-inch of toe-in and 1/16-inch of toe-out when it encounters a rut in the road. This 1/8-inch difference in the direction that the tire is pointed will result in the vehicle tramlining. Replace the worn part to remove the play and you will significantly reduce or remove the tramlining. Many drivers with higher mileage cars have reported that replacing worn suspension components has eliminated tramlining and made the car drive like it is new again...which I guess it essentially is!

Well, at least I ain't alone anymore :P I can feel your pain man.

I've got mine booked in at the tyre place tomorrow morning... he's also a general mechanic so he'll give suspension/brakes/etc a look.

Also, Ricbec - a funny thing is, I too have a noise when I take off, and have been told on these forums that it could be the idle belt/pulley. I've noticed my old man's KJ does it too.

And also I have a brake noise, but it's a squealing noise, not a grinding sound. I've been told by a heap of mechanics now that "it's normal" but I recently got someone telling me I need my discs machined or replaced to stop it.

I'll keep you posted with news from the tyre/mechanic dude.

BOZ

Well, that was a waste of time.......

Had it back into Mitsu today, they had the wheel align redone - got them to swap tyres from fron to back, the tyres that were on the front are some unknown brand to me, but what was on the back are the original factory tyres (done well too, 87000 k's), so the Service Manager felt that those tyres wernt too "square" as he said....so I figured i'd put that to the test and swap em round - pretty much did nothing....maybe an extremely slight improvment......

What really bugs me though, is the steering even seems to be affected by what the back end is doing.....another example was when leaving the dealership, they have speed humps, going over thos slowly, and on slight angle, the front wheels pushed the steering from side to side.....which I know is normal....but it is definately worse than I have experienced.....but when the back wheels went over them...i got almost exactly the same "wobble" in the steering wheel....that, I have never personally experienced.

I am seriously hoping that the dealership isnt trying to pull the wheel over my eyes!! :) , as its up to them to fix it if there is a problem - I mentioned the term "tramlining" to the Service Manager - and he just had a blank look on his face, like he had never heard of it, and I mentioned how either tyres, or worn suspention components could make it worse, and he immediately replied with that they checked all the suspention and steering when I had it in last time......the funny thing is, I never asked them to look at steering suspention, only wheel align....and he never told me either that they had done further inspection on the car.....so i dunno whether to believe him or not!

I suppose my next move would have to be to take it to an independant suspention\steering joint and see what they have to say.....

Bozza - I take it you car has ABS....is it a hydralic sounding noise, sounding like it is coming from the left hand side of the car?

Can anyone tell me what is it that controls feedback through the steering wheel, and what controls the wieghting of the wheel?, is it the power steering unit?

I got my car back today from the tyre place, they said that what's causing the tramlining and steering bizzareness are the actual tyres... They reckon that the tyres I have on my rims now are too wide (225/55/R16) and that the standard size on the TF sports should be 215/60/R16. Also, they're all pretty worn, so I guess they're due.

So, I've got it booked in for Monday to get 4 new yokohama's, 215/60/R16, for about $150 a pop. Plus a wheel alignment too. Then I'll see if it's fixed.

They did a 45-point safety check, and they said the tyres are the only major thing that needs replacing. But they did say that "the front struts were noisy", so my front struts etc might need overhauling in the near future.

I'll let you know if it fixes it. But Ricbec, it sounds like my problem might be a little different to yours. And sorry man, but I have no idea about how power steering works - all I know is to keep the fluid topped up! :P

Also, it's not a hydraulic sound, more of a groan... it's the engine i'm pretty sure, it's coming from right near the belts. Only happens between 1200-1400rpm too.

OK guys well i'll let you know how the new tyres go.

BOZ

sorry bozza i assumed you had original size tyres on your car, that is a big cause of tramling (also known as tramtracking) i have a 320i BMW at home with 235/4017 tyres on it, and it tramtracks like you would not believe.
And Ribec, when a wheel alignment is done, the suspension and steering is always checked over first, as if there is any play, etc in any components, you will never get an accurate alignment. thats why they said they checked it before. And for your wobble over speed bumps, i realy don't think its something to worry about, you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. But i'll see what i can find out for you
And Also its the castor angle that gives you the majority of steering feel etc

Mine does it also. Sometimes it nearly rips the steering wheel out from your hands (keeps you awake though)... I have had 3 alignments and 4 new tyres to no avail. Delaers wipe their hands clean of the problem. Maybe in my case it just the Ralliart's suspension by design.

Bozza, yes, maybe our problems do differ, time will tell! - hope the new tyres fixes it for you! - but about the noise your hearing, just curious - does it happen only when cold - or is it there all the time around 1200 - 1400rpm? - I just ask because a similar issue has been covered here before regarding that.........ill try to dig it up if it does only happen cold, mine has a groan when cold at 1200rpm



I'll let you know if it fixes it. But Ricbec, it sounds like my problem might be a little different to yours. And sorry man, but I have no idea about how power steering works - all I know is to keep the fluid topped up! :P

Also, it's not a hydraulic sound, more of a groan... it's the engine i'm pretty sure, it's coming from right near the belts. Only happens between 1200-1400rpm too.BOZ

yeah, it's pretty much only when cold, or while it's warming up to normal operating temp... After that (once it's warm) you can't really hear it.

Cheers for your help dude.

Mine does it also. Sometimes it nearly rips the steering wheel out from your hands (keeps you awake though)... I have had 3 alignments and 4 new tyres to no avail. Delaers wipe their hands clean of the problem. Maybe in my case it just the Ralliart's suspension by design.

im sure ralliarts come with 225's as standards and stiff suspension = tramtracking

my advice if u dont want to sacrifice handling is to spot the potholes and drive in a way to minimise it

im sure ralliarts come with 225's as standards and stiff suspension = tramtracking

my advice if u dont want to sacrifice handling is to spot the potholes and drive in a way to minimise it

Possibly. Ever since I did an upgrade on the suspension, its been a lot harder in controlling the car to the point that I think something is not right (Isn't the point of upgrading the suspension is to create better control? No I didn't just lower the suspension, and only dropped it ~15mm).

Anyway I'm saving up for some new tyres (~$250 each) then I'll do another wheel alignment and see how it goes....if things don't improve, I'm swapping to VRX springs, then continue removing the other modded components until I am happy. What an expensive process....*sigh*

What makes things worse is I live in Sydney, home of the most awful roads, and to get to work I have to drive on one of Sydney's worst roads, Liverpool Road (Hume Hwy) through Bass Hill, other alternative is the ultra bumpy Canterbury Road :rant:

I have had this problem on my TH, I had good Yokahama tyres on then I went to povo turanzas and my car pulled over bumps and stuff. check your tyres and pressures coz sometimes crap tyres will do this. Also if you have a worn ball joint you can get what is known as bump steer. Because of play in the ball joint (movement) steering geometry is changed enough for a split second causing all sorts of steering hassles

Well, I've just had new yokohama S306's put on all 4 wheels, and had a 4-wheel alignment, and everything seems fine now. Steers nicely, no noticeable tramlining, and smooth enough with the sports suspension.

And I'm guessing the main reason behind it is that my old tyres were too wide (225/55/R16's) for the rim, whereas the new yokos are 215/60/R16, which is what it originally came with.

Anyway, I'm a happy man now... Now I gotta save up again for the major service comin up :( Ahhh it never ends :P

BOZ

I have had the same problem on 2 previous cars. On both occasions it was the tyres. Wider tyres with solid bands running around the tyre will cause tramlining. Change your tyres to ones that have breaks or gaps in the longitudinal ridges, and the tramlining will most likely go away. A lot of cheaper 'performance' uni-directional tyres will cause tramlining.
I know what you mean, it really ruins your driving experience.

Hope this helps

Bozza - heres the link to the groan you are experiencing:

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18676&highlight=groan+engine+cold

STILL going with my steering issue - glad to see yours is good now, I may have to wait till i renew the tyres to a better quality brand before i can go any further - I dont think I am making a mountain out of a mole hill - the speed hump story was just an example, i have trouble explaining things with cars, I know what im feeling, just cant describe it right - just feels weird!

anyway, like i said before, ill stop into a suspention & steering joint and get another opinion i think!

Cheers for that man.

Yeah, I'd definately get a second opinion hey... But I still think that it's different to what I was going thru... My guess is that it might have something to do with your suspension.

Good luck... BOZ

Maybe your driving a sports model on crap roads? lol


My car does similar to that, only it tries to straighten itself out when im going around a bend, it pulls, then releases, then pulls, then releases....

I just assume its becuase the sterring is so light

Yeah - Ive been thinking the same thing bozza - mainly because I have had experiences where the back end "wobbles" a bit, cant think of a better way to describe it, and the steering wheel seems to "wobble" in the opposite direction - if you understand what I mean, it may just be the spring/shockie combination - possibly even maybe it has had a single shockie replaced in the past - giving and uneven ride.........lol...i think alot dont i!! lol

Trust me - im not losing sleep over it - im just the type of person who NEEDS to know what is happening to his car - whether it is normal behaviour (with the car that is, not me :D )or not!!