Hey guys,

Exams are nearly over, which means I will be working a bit more, which means money...

Which means I can start to get excited about chosing an amp/sub package to compliment what I already have... which isn't that much really:

Solid little HU (50x4, 4v)
Focal 165kp (TN51 tweets) 6.5" splits up front
Eclipse 6x9 point source 2 way in the back (wagon remember)
Lots of dynamat extreme...

What I want is to expand on this to provide myself with a neat little SQ system. At the moment, its not quite loud enough (starts to clip at 80% vol) and I think the sound could be much fuller and better sounding with more bass required.

I don't want to be overpowered by bass, which is why I've been a bit hesitant to buy a sub, but I've since learnt that mid-bass will never really make up for the sound a larger speaker makes. I also want my bass to blend in and be a part of the existing sound, not be separated at all by a large difference in frequency. I listen to everything. Dance, hard rock, mellow, D+B... everything. I'm leaning towards a good quality 10" for precision and a bit more of a subtle bass sound... but I need advise on this.

So what I need/want to do is:

- Amplify what I have
- Decide on a sub size (9? 10? 12?)
- Choose a sub
- Amplify it

How much power will I need for the four speakers (4x50 rms enough)?
What size sub?
What brands could you recommend?
Resistance? What does this even do? I understand the electrical side of things but how does resistance change sound?
What kind of amp should I match up to it?

I'm looking to spend under $1k for the lot, but I'd rather pay less and go 2nd hand.
Anyone with stuff to sell, please let me know.

I know the sub topic has been done to death, and I have done a search but it seems there's mixed opinions on the topic. Thanks in advance,

Danno

:bump:
schbump

if you don't want over powering bass, but enough to increase it slighty so that it sounds even better, 10", any higher, the bass will start to becomes more powerful, as for the amp/s, all i can say, the more you pay the better quality

So you have a pair of focals being powered off a headunit? :bowrofl:

Theres the first problem, get any amp to power the focals and you will see the biggest improvement.

What valaxy66 said isnt true.

You could have a 15" in your setup and it will still sound fine (As long as its a decent quality 15)
The way to get a system balanced is with gains, it doesnt matter what size the sub is and if you start pickin a sub depending on what size it is, then your going to have problems.

165kp they have a power rating of like 80w or something dont they? maybe more cant really remember. And a headunit may say it puts out 45 watts, but im pretty sure thats max and prob not even that.

Either way you are SEVERLY underpowering your focals.

I reckon, get a 4 chan amp, bout 75 watts each chan, use 2 chans for the focals, and bridge the other 2 chans to power a sub and keep powering the 6*9s off the headunit.

This way you only need to buy a sub and amp.

Firstly resistance.

Resistance does not change how a speaker sounds. a 4ohm SVC sounds the same (neither better) as a 1 ohm dvc etc etc.

What does change is the load your amp 'sees'
If you are going to get a 4 channel amp and run the fronts of two channels and the rears bridged off two channels. You need to realise you're limited to 4 ohm loads. (As the amp is bridged it cannot play below 4 ohm loads.)

So you can get any 4 ohm single voice coil sub. Or any 2 ohm dual voice coil sub.

I will assume you'll be looking at 4 ohm SVC and will only want one.

(the difference is that if you buy a dedicated monoblock these can be "loaded down" to 2 ohms and 1 ohm loads where the amp will produce a lot more power at the expense of control.)

Nevertheless, I would still look for a powerful 4 channel. The more power the better. (but dont buy Boss as most of these power ratings are bull)
At the lowest end would be a Jaycar 4x50 or preferably a Jaycar 4x100 (new range)
Now the Jaycar amps are good, but by no means great. Whether ul notice this difference is up to your ears.
Besides that other quality amps: Zapco, Soundstream, Phass, Tru Tech, DD, Arc Audio, Alpine older series, Audison.
Or the typical Pioneer, Alpine, Cadence, etc etc

Anyway in terms of power I'd be aiming for 4x100w rms or more. This will give your sub around 400 w when bridged, and give your fronts 100 w rms which they will love. Even if you dont use this power the headroom is what keeps the system 'noise' low. And lets your speakers see clean power. A 4x50 will do the job but will be running very hot which leads to problems.


For the rears, run them off the headunit and go down to jaycar and purchase a non-polarised electrolytic capacitor to highpass the rears. Ask for one that will give you around a 150 - 300hz highpass cut.

this is to keep the bass away from the 6x9's as you want it all coming from your sub to avoid cancellation.

As for subs, too many to pick from. But anything that can handle 300 w + will suit the amp nicely. You arent after a huge sound.

Need to factor in a lot of things. (I'll use jaycar just because its cheap, but a specialist car audio shop can also help you out)
You WILL need
2 x 5m rca =~ $25 each from jaycar (More for stinger etc dont pay too much on rca's though)
4 gauge RED cable through to the boot.
4 gauge BLACK cable (short run) for grounds
fuseholder and fuse at the engine bay
ring terminals to connect to battery/ground point (and possibly to amps)
Speaker wire - Doesnt need to be too thick. Jaycar stuff is good. But you dont want to be running through stock wires.
Sub wire: Buy Jaycars chunky speaker wire.
Sub box - I'd recommend a small sealed enclosure for ease of use. Make your own or buy a hand made one. (I wouldnt recommend prefab as its needs to be solid) A decent custom box from a store (not made to spec) is around $110. DIY will chop that down.

You gonna install it all yourself. I'd recommend it as you will lose a lot of ur $$ at a store.

Then you shouild be looking at door preparation which is very important for good sound. Deadening, baffles, etc.

Peace

Tim

if you listen to rock, you can't have a 15, it moves to much air

if you get a 15, you'll have to listen the music quite loudly otherwise it will bass out at lower volume, i don't know with a 12, but 10 good amount of bass at lower to mid volumes, higher volumes, it won't be enough

i get my facts from owning and using a 10 pioneer, and currently using a 15 in pioneer

Tim, He is still going to have Problems with 6x9's bottoming out from Under shelf Pressure from the sub, So we need to address that problem first, if the 6x9's are sealed off from the boot, their Bass response will be Naturally Band passed, Would it not ??

if you listen to rock, you can't have a 15, it moves to much air



This has been proven a farse, a Well Tuned 15 inch sub will have a similiar Response time to any other speaker..
Why do you think at Rock concerts do they use Huge 15 inch or 18 inch PA Drivers..
A Subs Response is determined by the Quality of components used , Tuning and power provided.


This Subject has been the sore point on CAA for a while...

Sure if you stick a Poor Quality 15 inch sub into a Non tuned enclosure then sure Mechanical resistance will take Place..

yea, they play it loudly, in yoru car, if you play your music low it basses out to much

well at the moment, i've got a 15 in, maxium watts is 700, tell me how to tune it, or tell me what sub to get.

it's fine, when i play volume 21 plus ( doesn't basses out, sounds good) but between 10 - 20, especially during rock songs, it tends to bass out

I will PM you to stop Thread hijacking..

Tim, He is still going to have Problems with 6x9's bottoming out from Under shelf Pressure from the sub, So we need to address that problem first, if the 6x9's are sealed off from the boot, their Bass response will be Naturally Band passed, Would it not ??

Can you expand on this please? What do you mean 'bottoming out'?
If I say it's for danstraz's sake too ;) lol

Ok, When you have a Sub in your Boot, especially a Ported enclosure that is rear facing, the Air Pressure from the sub will push underneath the cone of the 6x9's causing them to be sucked in and out when the Bass is pumping, combined with the Movement already being caused by the Signal being sent to the 6x9's this will lead to over excursion and a nasty Crackling sound or distorted bass from the Voicecoil hitting the Bottom of the Magnet it sits above.. Also called Bottoming Out..

pm sent so I'm not highjacking ;)

"if you listen to rock, you can't have a 15, it moves to much air

if you get a 15, you'll have to listen the music quite loudly otherwise it will bass out at lower volume, i don't know with a 12, but 10 good amount of bass at lower to mid volumes, higher volumes, it won't be enough

i get my facts from owning and using a 10 pioneer, and currently using a 15 in pioneer"

Okai, I think of myself as a nice guy, but sometimes when people make idiotic statements like this I cant help myself.
Please dont give stupid advice like that, which is complete bull****, especially when you dont know what your talking about.

valaxy66 the reason why your subs do that is because they are cheap quality (No offense)

Bring any rock songs or whatever and come listen to my 15" PG Titatium sub and youll see the sub size doesnt matter.

Their are 10 inch subs that move more amounts of air then many many 15" subs.

So how does your logic of a 15" sub moves too much air sound work then?, because by this logic these top quality 10" subs like diamond audio one should sound completly crap, when it has been proven that its prob the best sounding sub you can buy.

What happens if you have two 10" subs, will this then sound crap because they move too much air compared to one 10" sub?

He is Saying that his 15 inch Has too much Bass and sound laggy, this is Because Mechanical Resistance seems to be plaguing his system, he has a 15 inch sub in a Generic Enclosure.. Even with a pioneer 15 inch sub, this can be eliminated by the correct installation and Correct Signal...

Port size will have a lot to do with percieved 'lagginess' and boominess from resonant peaks.
Anyway I suggested a sealed enclosure and at the moderate levels suggested there shouldnt be any problems with damage to rear cones.

The major problem comes from the big buildup of pressure caused by ported boxes in small boots. My mates 6x9's were ripped apart by his subs. Now uses 6" splits in sealed pod boxes on the parcel shelf.

Nevertheless As long as the frequencies aren't the same (highpass the rears) there will be no cancellation. Since rear fill is only going to be low powered off the headunit it is not there to dominate or blend anyway. The fronts should be doing this. the rear fill should always be just that (fill). You can even afford to play them mono, or not at all. But it all comes down to how much power you have at your fingertips and what you want from ur system.

Thanks heaps for the detailed replies... I'm really busy, but I'll post soon wit a few more q's. Cheers guys!

Ok, to continue on with what tim was saying about what I want for my system...

I want a true sounding system at all volumes and a broad centralized stage.

To achieve this, I was originally planning to have a 6 speaker system comprising of front splits, splits in the back doors and 6x9's in the tailgate (remember I have a wagon).

I may change my mind once the speakers I have are amped, but I think I'm going to need a sub to complete the imagery of the sound (if I'm talking bull here tell me). Without subs or speakers on a low pass, I don't think I'd be able to produce a sound as true and full as I would like.

I do like the stage to sound equal where I sit as well, not overpowered by the front. I spose this is just personal preference, but thats how I like it.

Bearing this in mind, I think I should either:
1. Buy mids for the rear doors, run them through the front stage and amp the lot (4ch)
2. Buy splits for the back doors and amp the lot (6ch or 4ch with 6x9's and rears in parallel)
3. Buy a sub and amp the sub and fronts (3ch) leaving the 6x9's off the deck
4. Amp the existing speakers and add a mono and sub
5. Work towards a 6.1 channel system

A friend has #5 as above running fronts and 6x9's off a 4ch amp, rear doors off the HU and a mono powered sub. I haven't had a chance to really listen to it, but he loves it.

I also need to chose a good 10" or 12" sub. I'm keen to get a sealed enclosure with a single good quality SQ 10" (from what I've read and learnt), but I have no idea where to start.

Any advise is appreciated to no end... thanks heaps guys.

Cheers,

Danno

Ok personally I would try and steer clear of surround sound setups in cars. Even if you have a dvd player and big screen up front 95% of the time you will be listening to music while driving. So the surround sound will offer no benefit.

Until you get your front stage amped and a sub, dont put too much focus on anything behind you. I'd try and get as much 'meat' up front.
If you get enough power up front things will fall into place and the sub will blend in very nicely making it seem like the sub is up front with you.

If you have any midbass playing behind you ALL the sub bass ill be dragged back with it, this is very bad for staging.

It depends on your tastes mate. Go to a show and have a look around at what's there. Being a wagon your bass will be enhanced anyway due to the rolling effect of the sound waves. You can check out what's in my sedan if you want...here's a link. Let us know what you think and hopefully it might give an idea of a good setup. I haven't run it in a SQ comp yet because there hasn't been one here in Albany, however all the guys who hear it cream their pants at the quality. All speakers are run off of amps except the 6x9's in the boot - they come straight off the head unit. Good luck finding what you want bro. I would recommend 12" subs and a Crossfire amp to match (that's my next upgrade). That's the best all-round setup I've found and I can listen to rock music, metal, anything and the bass isnt too over-powering at all. I found it was simply a matter of tuning the Gain on the amps to balance them all out and then if absolutely needed adjusting it all on the head unit output levels. Again though that's my personal opinion, and to get an idea find another wagon with a decent setup and have a look.

Here is that link:
http://www.carstereo.com/installs/photo_gallery_album.cfm?home=yes&photoid=18460&galleryid=1373

Delete the 6x9 Idea in the rear Gate.. It will rattle like hell without some severe sound deadoning and it will make the Gate far too heavy for the Struts to lift up and Support


Your going good with the Splits in the front doors but in the Rear doors I would drop down to a 2-way Co-Axial with an Adjustable tweeter mount and get the Woofer Angled upwards.. You dont sit in the Back seat so splits are not really necessary.

Since you plan on Getting a Sub, I would go for a 6inch 2-way in the rear gate on a Custom Baffle.
I put a set of 6x9's in a friends TE Wagon and Even when running them off the Head unit they made the Locking Mechanism and the whole rear panel flex badly. We Solved this by using an 5mm MDF Spacer, Some Spray on Sound deadoner and a whole heap of time even then the lock still rattled we then had to fit heavy duty Struts to hold up the tail gate



Tim, I think he is trying to aim for a Non Biased Sound system, not a Surround system meaning he wants equal sound from all around, not an SQ based system where the Front end is strong but a system where all stages are equal..

Delete the 6x9 Idea in the rear Gate.. It will rattle like hell without some severe sound deadoning and it will make the Gate far too heavy for the Struts to lift up and Support...Tim, I think he is trying to aim for a Non Biased Sound system, not a Surround system meaning he wants equal sound from all around, not an SQ based system where the Front end is strong but a system where all stages are equal..

Hit it on the head there... I want a system that sounds equal and full throughout the car... I know this isn't 100% achievable but I'm sure I can do what I can to get it close. Atm I have faded to the rear for a more central stage (if that makes sense) or neutral sounding system as far as volume is concerned. As far as the sound goes, I'm trying to fill in the gaps in the music. I know I have a long way to go, but I know I need a slightly stronger lower end at the moment, which is why I'm going to need a sub and 1 or 2 amps.

Magnat, the 6x9's are in and running, sound really well balanced.

The tailgate only just stays open as it is with all the dynamat in it... I'm really happy with the 6x9s (eclipse, top of their line) and I like the fact that they fit in the factory spots. I want to be able to hear them too, as part of the system, not just as fill to compliment the splits and the sub. Doesn't rattle yet, but I have a feeling that an amp might change that.

So I still need to decide whether I'll need one amp or two, whether I'll need speakers for the rear doors or not and what sub to buy.

If I don't power the 6x9's and pull a 4ch into 3ch for a sub and splits, will I end up with a system that's dominated by the front stage? How can I achieve this full, neutrally staged sound throughout the car?

Thanks heaps guys,

Danno

There is no such thing... :)
A soundstage can only 'stage' when its in front of you.

2 point sources (left and right) are essential to stereo imaging.

When you hear a band they dont simultaneously play behind you. Nor do they have speakers behind you to surround you (nightclubs and some concerts are exceptions, many nightclubs use mono speakers as its impossible to plan a room with left and right in mind when people face every direction

The easy thing about car audio in comparison to theatres and living rooms is that you know where everyone is and you know what the environment is.
The audience is always up the front facing forward.

As stereo is only 2 channels having extra sound coming from behind you is a waste.

I really will stress this point as it would be a shame to see you blow your money on things that wont give you an audible benefit. Especially when ur using my old equipment ;)

You have two ears on the side of your head they both face forward. They have evolved to sense hear full range 20hz-2khz forward horizontal movement very well (so we can hear the cheetahs stalking us through the jungle.:p) If you have enough volume coming from your front speakers the sound will be loud enough and will naturally surround you. As it would at a live band.
When you listen to a live band the acoustics of the venue provide ambient noise. Each enviroment has its own acoustic signature the car is no different. But all of this is recorded into the CD itself in stereo.

Im a firm beleiver in recreating the sound as it was meant to be heard.
Now imagine you are watching a band from the audience you shut your eyes and can pinpoint the vocalist in the centre up front, backup vocalists to the left of the stage, drummers up the back right, guitars up the front right.
When you shut your eyes in an SQ system you want to recreate this realism. It is possible to do using two speakers to recreate this exactly in a car.

Now imagine you walk from the audience up onto the stage next to the vocalist. the Vocalist is behind you half a metre, the drummer in front of you the back up vocalists to your direct left the guitarist to your direct right.

Now in a Dolby 6.1 arrangement all this sound is encoded at the sound engineering studio and could duplicate this fairly well. So when you are sitting there at home listening to this you can shut your eyes and your ears will think you are there. If you could do this in a car then it would be amazing. But since we only have 2 channels of music (left and right) we cant reach this same effect.

Instead what you will hear with all four speakers playing 2 channels:
The vocalist coming from in front and behind you
The drummer coming from in front and behind you
The guitars coming from your right, but being stretched out all the way from the front of the car to the back of the car.
As your brain tries to piece it all back together it will give up and go "Crap this isnt real at all" It's just too much for the brain to handle so you wont be able to pinpoint anything. just be a big muddle of sound

Everytime I jump in my car and listen to some quality music it is like the person's face is right there on my dash. I can point to her.

With all these waves coming from everywhere with a strong rear stage you will lose this effect, essentially you are losing all the imaging in the track and most importantly losing the main thing anyone wanting SQ is out for.

Recreating what you'd hear if you heard it live. Or recreating what the artist intended you to hear.

Happy to explain anything in more detail about nature of sound, I actually find it very interesting how humans percieve sound and what it does to emotions etc.

But not happy to have you running strong rear fill if ur after SQ :p . Put the money where you'll hear it.

Note: I will accept that low levels of rear fill can have some good effects to do with staging, but as long as they are low enough so you cant notice them. As soon as you hear it coming from the back over your fronts it is too loud. Rear fill 'can' improve your centrestage. Ideally is should be ran in mono, and rear fill is always good for rear passengers. Although mine dont complain... (i cant hear them complaining anyway)

Peace

Tim

I have been in some NightClubs where they used front and Rear aswell as stereo left and Right.. The Dj is up front and Central so all the Ravers generally face Forwards but the Sound goes all around you and have great left and right Phasing ...

The Conundrum is you want an Equal staged system..

To be really honest I would go for a Simple Front and rear set up with a Sub in the Middle..

Front Splits.. Amp them and the rear 6x9's from a 4 Channel Amp..
Then run a MonoBlock to power the Sub of your choice..
Having said this, what about Security it is a Wagon, people are gonna see a Huge Enclosure with a Sweet sub in it and will want to take it with out your permission.

How much space Are you willing to give up for this install ??


Is it possible for you to post up a Photo of the Rear of your wagon??? ( preferable from the Tail gate open perspective facing the rear of the Back seat)

We may have to look at stealth Enclosures to solve this issue...

As a DJ, I will tell you those '4-way surround" setups are only running the rear Mid-highs as an Ambient (about 20-30% of the main FOH speakers), and usually in MONO.

The subs crank at 100% down the back, if there are any.....
One place I worked at ran a 22ms delay on them, and added some echo as well.

That said, there was a place I worked at that run every speaker at 100% level, and in stereo.
Was a circular dancefloor, so if you were dead in the centre, it sounded awesome.

And remember, if you are playing vinyl, it's all mono source anyway. In which case, pound away at whatever level will not get noise complaints!

The old system at home sydney was run mono. Basically all vinyl source too.

Thanks that is exactly what I meant..

The Rears were still used
This is what I have in my Car , Front Rear and Sub and I have had no compliants what so ever, unlike when I ran an SQ system and the Back passengers Complained all they could here was High Pitched Treble and Deep Bass... Now I have gone " Night Club" all people are happy.

Culture Beat have Continoous fading left to write on their Album I could not Bare to listen to it just with Splits and a Sub..my 6x9's are essential, even if they are only just audible..

Thanks for the detailed replies fellas, it's a bit to get through, but its really interesting. Just joined up to CAA, so I should be able to learn a bit more there...

Tim, your old equipment is being very well looked after. I just wish I'd spent less on the 6x9's which will probably end up being rear fill lol

So say I found a 4 channel amp, about 4x100 wrms @ 4ohms and bridgable, could I run my splits and a sub by bridging two of the channels and run the 6x9s off the deck, at reasonable levels?

If I did this, how would I run the rear stage mono?

Will the 6x9s distort at higher volumes?

Cheers,

Danno

Did you post on CAA??

Most of the Guys on there will tell you to do what Tim has said to do...


What deck is Heading the system up, does it have Sub out ???

Nah, havent posted up there yet...

Tim's old JVC (3 pre outs, 4v, sub out).

It's a nice unit, but I really need an amp. The speakers start to sound good when the volume's at about 70%, but any higher than 80% and it starts to clip. As far as amps go, I'd like one of Tim's soundstreams or something similar (if he wants to sell). 4 channel, min 100wrms per channel. I've been looking at eclipse, they have a 4x125wrms for a reasonable price... but I'm still looking.

I wont know the deal on my SS until I get the whole system up and running. It really depends how much the new mids can take.
But I'll let you know.

A 4x100 will be a great starting point. More power gives you more options. BUt 4 channel amps are really flexible.
I use 3 atm.
At one stage I ran my whole system off one amp. The mrv-405 (4x45) This now runs main tweets and ambients.
The other SS is bridged to run the subs.
The other SS is only running the mids with two spare channels that I use for playing around with other speakers.

Anyway, I'd get your amp first then work your way back from there. I'm not sure how much u wanna go out with sound, but if you're serious with it the best way is to do it right the first time, save up if you need to.

Anyway should work well, look forward to the results.

CAA is a goldmine - Especially for 2nd hand equipment.

Peace

Tim

Thanks tim, magnat, mitsi monsta and ascension (spelling? sorry).

I was fiddling with the fader today and came to terms with not having as much sound coming out of the boot... I see what you mean about being able to pinpoint where the sounds are coming from. I'm going to try having the 6x9's off the deck and amp a sub and the front stage off a 4 channel... when I manage to find one...

How do I run the 6x9's in mono?

I still have too decide on a nice 10" or 12" so any recommendations are more than appreciated. After SQ, so something with dual 2ohm voice coils or a single 4 ohm?

Just one last thing... one of the guys on caa is selling diamond hex 6" mids and I might be needing some (I'll explain later). If I run these instead of the focal mids off the focal xover, will I need to play with the tweeter levels much? Only because the xovers only give 7db of play.

Cheers guys...

Danno

Schbumpity shbump
schfifty five
schiggidy shiggidy shwa

Focal gear is best to be run with Focal Cross overs as they are usually Tuned to each components individuality ,so No I would not get the Diamonds then run them of a Focal Cross over..

Rears being run in mono is not a necessity. Off the headunit you wont be able to do it. I wouldnt worry too much about it (not worth buying a small amp just to run them in mono) but if you could do it easily I would.

You can run with different xovers, but it's not ideal.
I'd wait a while on CAA things pop up frequently, so no need to buy things too quickly.

You shouldnt have too many problems with the tweeter levels if you did this though. But if you were to buy the mids eventually you would start looking for the matching tweets and a matching xover and it gets very exxy. (Been there done that :p)
Sometimes better to just wait for the right set to show up.
Unless you're running active which gives you that flexibility.

Peace

Tim

Cool, well that only leaves me with amp/s and sub to choose I spose... Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.

Cheers,

Danno

P.s. Tim, keep me updated if you're keen to sell either of the soundstream picasso's.