ok, i did a search and couldn't find an answer...

Anyone attempted to eliminate the balance shafts without taking their motor out?

What should i be expecting without balance shafts? power, responsive-ness, perhaps a saving in fuel?

what kind of damage does not having balance shafts do? (probably need engine mounts sooner, or could this even crack the block where the mounts are from the harmonics that these shafts are supposed to suppress?)

i've heard that eliminating balance shafts is the cheapest mod ($20 for a kit) that can be done to an astron, allows the motor to rev easier and higher, and can even provide up to 12kw atw (i highly doubt that much though)

Cheers,
Bill

Anyone attempted to eliminate the balance shafts without taking their motor out?

I dont believe it would be possible, the shafts would be too long to pull out and there isnt much clearance between the front of the engine and the body. I recall when doing a front timing case on a friends a few weeks back how big of a b*tch that was to do and that was fairly small.



What should i be expecting without balance shafts? power, responsive-ness, perhaps a saving in fuel?

Have fun finding an answer to this, when I was looking at doing it not many people had done it and even fewer gave answers!!!

I was going to do it, but the current engine I am using is as rough as guts anyway :)

There isn't much mass to a balance shaft, and most of the mass is around the centre of the shaft. I wouldn't expect to see any power increase. I have pulled my shaft and made a kit to suit, but I did alot of mods durring the rebuild and although it was like chalk and cheese after i broke it in and gave it a squirt, it was more the fresh engine and other mods contributing to the performance.

It wont make a much rougher idle, if at all, although I would do it. Not because of power or responce, but to simplify the motor. Less moving parts, less strain on your oil chain and perhaps less engine noise because most people dont replace the end shell bearings on the balance shaft.

Go it dude, but its hard to do it while the motor is in.. the timing chain cover is a pain in the ass and you have to loosen of the head or sump to do it properly.

Ask TM-Terror about his motor.By the way what about the oil pump?It is driven by one balance shafts!

no its a chain from the crank which drives the pump directly, which then has gears which drive the balance shaft i though?

Actually, the oil pump is driven by the chain. One of the gears makes up the balance shaft. A BSEK contains a new stub, to replace this.

It isn't possible to remove them without removing the motor. You need to pull the timing chain off before you can access the balance shafts.

As for power, I've heard 11hp, which is about 8kW.

You can’t gain power from removing rotational mass, that’s like gaining power from lightening your flywheel. It helps acceleration, but not due to increased power. I don’t think 2kg of close rotational mass will make a noticeable increase, but it’s still not going to hurt.

I worked out for my car, 1kg of mass from the very outer diameter of my flywheel would equal 21.XX kg equivalent mass from the chassis.

Now the balance shaft rotates 1:1 with the crank, like a flywheel but the balance shaft isn't wider than 10cm so the mass is very close to the axis, not like a flywheel which is a good 300mm diameter.

You’re looking at roughly the equivalent mass of 10kg removed from the car in regards to acceleration, meaning if you have a car jack, take it out and you will notice more of a difference, but you'll be frigged if you get a flat :badgrin:

You can’t gain power from removing rotational mass, that’s like gaining power from lightening your flywheel. It helps acceleration, but not due to increased power. I don’t think 2kg of close rotational mass will make a noticeable increase, but it’s still not going to hurt.

I worked out for my car, 1kg of mass from the very outer diameter of my flywheel would equal 21.XX kg equivalent mass from the chassis.

Now the balance shaft rotates 1:1 with the crank, like a flywheel but the balance shaft isn't wider than 10cm so the mass is very close to the axis, not like a flywheel which is a good 300mm diameter.

You’re looking at roughly the equivalent mass of 10kg removed from the car in regards to acceleration, meaning if you have a car jack, take it out and you will notice more of a difference, but you'll be frigged if you get a flat :badgrin:
No, it rotates 2:1 in an Astron motor

as sidewinder puts it

O RRY :bowrofl:

20kg equivalent mass then, at best, thats using a small cars weight and a generous balance shaft weight and weight distrobution along the axis.

Thanks Snowball for that info. :P I was thinking that the chain is reused.But wasnt sure about that kit! :doubt:
But how well will the motor run without balance shafts.?

the shaft is there to balance out the crank because it was designed unbalanced. its just a shaft which spins with the crank alongside, with a profile to counter the crank weights.

as sidewinder puts it

O RRY :bowrofl:

20kg equivalent mass then, at best, thats using a small cars weight and a generous balance shaft weight and weight distrobution along the axis.
I'll measure and weigh my old ones.

take a photo of the gearing and shaft too, ill do a few calculations and give a closer estimate if you want.

I'll try. These were removed after catastrophic failure. The C-guide splintered, and took out the upper balance shaft, so it's pretty impressive.

Well everybody is right on this one.
Yes the balance shaft chain drives the oil pump
Yes the ratio is 2:1
Yes removing it makes very little difference.

I spent sum time looking this up to find out what to do with rebuilding the block in my avatar.
The shaft were put in by mitsu to smooth out vibrations at idle and at the higher end.
Removing them makes a slight difference to the pick up of the engine and gives the feeling of better responsiveness. This is at the price of a slightly rougher idle and some small vibration as the revs rise, mostly undetectable.

You can by the kit 4 about $30 on line (ebay) which includes the stub shaft and gaskets or the whole kit for about $80 including eveything except new shafts.

If your drag racing the car I'd say take em out but if shes a daily driver like mine I chose to leave them in.

Try this guy and price elswhere for comparison. He may not list em at the time you check but he does stock em, so email him if neccesary

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Ringwood-Auto-Parts

:D :D

is their shell bearings at the end or a full spigot type bearing? either way it needs to be changed with a rebuild.

Yes. Although mine's a daily, the damage caused to the upper bearing would mean I'll need to resleeve it every 10,000 or so km. Therefore, I need to delete mine.

I think a few guys removed theirs and reckoned that they saw a gain without any increase in engine vibration.

:bump:

so there is not really a definitive answer to this... haven't heard a comment from someone who has actually deleted them in their own car! maybe i'll have to be the first to comment when i do it, i know exactly what my car feels like to drive atm.

after we fuel injected my mates sigma, a few months later we deleted them and now the motor is very responsive. this has got me interested in deleting them from my motor.

ohh, and going back to my year 11/12 physics... KW is really newton-metre per second (nm/s)... so because the motor can rev easier and is more responsive, and KW incorporates a time factor, you would ultimately have more power/KW (not torque - which is measured in nm)

There isn't much mass to a balance shaft, and most of the mass is around the centre of the shaft. I wouldn't expect to see any power increase. I have pulled my shaft and made a kit to suit, but I did alot of mods durring the rebuild and although it was like chalk and cheese after i broke it in and gave it a squirt, it was more the fresh engine and other mods contributing to the performance.

It wont make a much rougher idle, if at all, although I would do it. Not because of power or responce, but to simplify the motor. Less moving parts, less strain on your oil chain and perhaps less engine noise because most people dont replace the end shell bearings on the balance shaft.

Go it dude, but its hard to do it while the motor is in.. the timing chain cover is a pain in the ass and you have to loosen of the head or sump to do it properly.



so there is not really a definitive answer to this... haven't heard a comment from someone who has actually deleted them in their own car! maybe i'll have to be the first to comment when i do it, i know exactly what my car feels like to drive atm.

Sounds like he did. :D
Or does he mean the Charade :redface:

but he also said that he did the balance shafts at the same time as other mods... i wanna know what i should be expecting only from deleting the shafts

yeah my engine has had the balance shafts removed but its hard to tell what effect it has had because i bought this engine with the mods already done, its a TR magna engine with the roller rocker setup. but it definately is quite a bit more resonsive than my old engine and maybe slightly lumpier at idle not noticably, a little bit like a WRX.
id recommend it if you rip the engine out to do a rebuild. but from the sounds of it its not worth ripping the engine out to just do that.

id assume that it would free up a few kw's at high revs because of the reduced drag on the engine, because the engine at 6000rpm is driving the balance shafts at 12000rpm.

yeah my engine has had the balance shafts removed but its hard to tell what effect it has had because i bought this engine with the mods already done, its a TR magna engine with the roller rocker setup. but it definately is quite a bit more resonsive than my old engine and maybe slightly lumpier at idle not noticably, a little bit like a WRX.
id recommend it if you rip the engine out to do a rebuild. but from the sounds of it its not worth ripping the engine out to just do that.

id assume that it would free up a few kw's at high revs because of the reduced drag on the engine, because the engine at 6000rpm is driving the balance shafts at 12000rpm.
I'd say you would find that the difference is more so from the engine.
My TR EFI donk is noticably more responsive and is rougher at idle than the engine that I used to have.
When I build my brand new block up I will be using the TS head and rocker gear with the TN pistons, should increase compression to almost 10:1

id assume that it would free up a few kw's at high revs because of the reduced drag on the engine, because the engine at 6000rpm is driving the balance shafts at 12000rpm.
i'm hoping so... my motor is very crap over say around 4500... and it's not really a big mod nor an expensive one. i'm soon probably gonna look at a cam, extractors... but wondering if this mod is worth the effort... knowing me, i'll still do it anyways lol

basicly this kit is to eliminate the chain rattle for good is it not.

I have been in contact with the guy on Ebay not easy to get a proper answer from this guy but I brought the chain and guides kit from him today for $99 and I asked him about the eliminator kit and this was his answer to me when i asked "does this kit eliminate the noise chain sendrome.

Quote:-
Alex..The balance shaft elimination kit ..Eliminates the balance shaft only..There still is 2 chains..
I believe it is for when the balance shaft stuffs up its rear bush..Which is a pain to repair..
If you have no problems other than a noisy chains..You do not need the Balance shaft eliminated..
Cheers

Rob Mills
Ringwood Auto Parts

End Quote.

basicly this kit is to eliminate the chain rattle for good is it not.

I have been in contact with the guy on Ebay not easy to get a proper answer from this guy but I brought the chain and guides kit from him today for $99 and I asked him about the eliminator kit and this was his answer to me when i asked "does this kit eliminate the noise chain sendrome.

Quote:-
Alex..The balance shaft elimination kit ..Eliminates the balance shaft only..There still is 2 chains..
I believe it is for when the balance shaft stuffs up its rear bush..Which is a pain to repair..
If you have no problems other than a noisy chains..You do not need the Balance shaft eliminated..
Cheers

Rob Mills
Ringwood Auto Parts

End Quote.


Blah Blah Blah, funny how a person who I think does not even know that a Magna is a Mitsubishi can make such a positive comment. Mr Ringwood WRONG!!!!!

Yes you may as well remove the shafts, it will stop the problems you have had and many have had with the balance chain rattle.

You will not notice the difference in idle, power etc. You will notice the difference with no rattles.

You will not notice the difference in idle,

As in you will never notice the rougher idle ?


Blah Blah Blah, funny how a person who I think does not even know that a Magna is a Mitsubishi can make such a positive comment. Mr Ringwood WRONG!!!!!


Yeah he never gave me a straight answer till I told him to answer the question straight forward instead of bloody riddle's.:confused:

k dude i have read all tha posts and a lot of ppl are just giving opinions not real advice.

i have done it. the balance shafts are there to compensate for the badly balanced engine design. taking them out will not make an extremely noticeable shudder or anything, however it will give u significant performance gains. taking out tha 2kg or more of rotating mass will def improve horsepower. it will be like switching off ur aircon seriously. its less mass for ur engine to turn therefore less power is wasted in doing so... and u will not lose momentum like u would lightening flywheel either.

the front balance shaft comes out no worries take off oil pump and just pull it out. the oil pump is still driven by tha chain so dont worry. the rear balance shaft needs to be removed and cut off so that the original cog can bolt back onto tha block. this is a job that will need the engine removed or repositioned to do it coz the shafts are probably 25 - 30cm long.

trust me if u have the dedication its worth it. probably one of tha cheaper modz if u do it urself.

i have done many other modz msg me if ur interested

oh and most power increase would be noticeable at low rpm coz the engine can idle up easier

k dude i have read all tha posts and a lot of ppl are just giving opinions not real advice.

i have done it. the balance shafts are there to compensate for the badly balanced engine design. taking them out will not make an extremely noticeable shudder or anything, however it will give u significant performance gains. taking out tha 2kg or more of rotating mass will def improve horsepower. it will be like switching off ur aircon seriously. its less mass for ur engine to turn therefore less power is wasted in doing so... and u will not lose momentum like u would lightening flywheel either.

the front balance shaft comes out no worries take off oil pump and just pull it out. the oil pump is still driven by tha chain so dont worry. the rear balance shaft needs to be removed and cut off so that the original cog can bolt back onto tha block. this is a job that will need the engine removed or repositioned to do it coz the shafts are probably 25 - 30cm long.

trust me if u have the dedication its worth it. probably one of tha cheaper modz if u do it urself.

i have done many other modz msg me if ur interested


No and NO and NO,

I do not know where you get significant performance gains from removing 2 kg or rotational mass, I would chalange you to even see a noticable gain on a dyno.

Yeah, no it will not increase horsepower, it will remove the drag and let the engine climb in revs faster, similar to a lightened flywheel.

I agree removing them will not cause a noticeable vibration in the engine, those who say it does have obviously not done this before, the only place you will notice a vibration is at higher revs.

The engine is not badly designed, it is a huge motor for a petrol powered 4cyl, thus the balance or counter shafts to smooth things up.

yes, yes and yes...

you definitely gain power.

if your motor were to produce more power, this is really the only answer i have for it... i still would like someone to maybe confirm if this might be valid...


ohh, and going back to my year 11/12 physics... KW is really newton-metre per second (nm/s)... so because the motor can rev easier and is more responsive, and KW incorporates a time factor, you would ultimately have more power/KW (not torque - which is measured in nm)

yes, yes and yes...

you definitely gain power.
pffft
You may gain a minuscule amount of power but what your 'seat of the pants' are telling you is power is just a more responsive engine, due to the removed inertia of the balance shafts.

yes, yes and yes...

you definitely gain power.

If your car is so slow that you have to remove the balance shafts to blow the dust of your bonnet, well then the balance shaft is the least of your problems.

You clearly do not have mechanical knowledge so please do not give advice that is so incorrect and mis informed!:nuts:

And you will not have more torque either, for example if you loose some weight from your flywheel you will loose some of the momentum from the spinning mass, you loose torque. I have proven this on a dyno on several occasions. You increase the engine's ability to rev quicker so it appears to have more power

hmmmm.....mal i believe that you would gain a couple of hp plus as you say a more responsive engine which is also desireable. The reason i believe a hp gain however small will be the result is because it is not simply like lightening the flywheel as many people think due to the fact that the balance shafts are ancillary devices just like alternator or steer pump or a/c for that matter. The shafts are not part of the crankshafts weight and as such cannot be considered part of the crankshafts rotational mass.

1. I do have mechanical knowledge
2. My advice is not incorrect or misinformed.
3. thank u mon junior u just proved my point.

the diameter of the balance shafts is simply not great enough to affect torque in any noticeable way like that of the flywheel. Removing balance shafts does produce extra hp and does not reduce torque noticeably at all.

i had this done on my old sigma all they did was put a small chain that went from the crank to the oil pump gear and it never rattled again till my sister jacked the car up on the sump to change a tyre:nuts:

i had this done on my old sigma all they did was put a small chain that went from the crank to the oil pump gear and it never rattled again till my sister jacked the car up on the sump to change a tyre

And what was the diference after this was done like was there a noticeable vibration etc.

it virtually made no noticeable vibation changes, and made a slight acceleration differnce but was deffinitly worth it to get rid of that bluddy rattle

:bump:


took my balance shafts out yesterday... haven't driven the car cost i've been fixing lots of other things on it.

cant wait to experience the lack of balance shafts.

Was just wondering, instead of removing the engine to take out the shafts, couldnt you pull out what you can then cut it and then remove the rest ?

Well kids... balance shafts are out... and after driving, i've come to the conclusion that:

MY CAR IS NOT THE SAME CAR BEFORE I STARTED :D :D :D

After driving my car for a bit...

heres my take on things

Noise Changes:
*Exhaust is deeper
*motor roars instead of whines
*there is a slight whine that reminds me of a turbo spooling lol
*EVERYTHING RATTLES - those balance shafts actually do something!
*there is a deep noise from the front... i'm thinking induction noise? either that or a harmonic thats vibrating the car at the right note.

Driveablity changes:
*it just hauls up to 6-7k rpm, then the carby just leans out lol i guess the stocko carby cant do it
*i have a digital dash, and the digits now light up 2-3 digits at a time... almost like the tacho cant actually update as quick as it needs to.
*by the time your in the redline, the digits light up 5 at a time :D
*lost a bit of torque that is made up in the high end by power

Other changes:
*steering wheel has this slight vibration, as does everything
*mirror slightly shakes all the time just like having my subs at a moderate volume
*KICKBACK IS FUN :D VERY VERY FIRM :D

So i take it that its a mod worth doing ?

I have an efi i wonder if i would get simmilar results.

Yeh I can vouch for BCX7s car, its surprisingly different, I didn’t think it would do a lot but woah, straight off the line it just pulls like crazy, and yeh sounds completely differently too, well worth the mod!

Did it get rid of rattles or make more?

and FWIW, after taking mine out I noticed:

1) Less chain noise, which is good because I only want to hear my stereo..

2) Quicker/More responsive revving, which is good when there are girlies and you need to rev it up (maybe drop the clutch) to show them how manly you are.

3) Slightly deeper induction note (although I also fixed an air leak on the intake so that could have helped.

Just my 2.6 cents.

Tim.

Did it get rid of rattles or make more?

more! the shafts are there to eliminate them!



2) Quicker/More responsive revving, which is good when there are girlies and you need to rev it up (maybe drop the clutch) to show them how manly you are.

correct, that is very important... if only i had a clutch...

kickback + loud exhaust still makes the hot bittys look at my sex on wheels :D

Well done guys. Anyone thinking about doing this mod, it is definately worth it!!
I have been building up 2.6's with and without balance shafts for years.
The only thing I can definately say is response difference was awesome.
At one stage removing balance shafts and machining the head (on a late model big port scorpion) to increase compression from 8.2 to 9.2:1 I had a rear wheel horsepower increase of 18hp.
My current starion has a 2.6 without balance shafts with programmable efi, turbo and custom everything and reliably makes 470hp at the flywheel.
They definately help with response and the only real noticable vibrations are harmonics at around 2500rpm. Balancing the engine helps a lot to minimize this.
Just to clarify the chain rattle, I have found that the timing chain is a bigger cause of the rattle. When you first start the car there is no load from the oil pump chain tensioner until you get oil pressure.
I have found that if you shim up this tensioner it stops the chain flapping around and eliminates the noise.

My current starion has a 2.6 without balance shafts with programmable efi, turbo and custom everything and reliably makes 470hp at the flywheel.



pics pics pics

I'll get some pics up soon. Just waiting to get my computer back home.

Wow
Shouldn’t you be getting every thing balanced before you eliminate the balance shafts?
Aren’t they there to stop unbalanced parts damaging the engine?
Mine came out when I had a full blueprint rebuild, the crank, flywheel, ect were all computer balanced and material was taken off to correct the balance.
Like adding led weights to your rims when they get balanced.

You and your ideas, mine doesn't run to rough with out them!

Yes though, it probably wuldn't have been a bad idea.

Pretty filthy and messy but here it is.

Wow
Shouldn’t you be getting every thing balanced before you eliminate the balance shafts?
Aren’t they there to stop unbalanced parts damaging the engine?
Mine came out when I had a full blueprint rebuild, the crank, flywheel, ect were all computer balanced and material was taken off to correct the balance.
Like adding led weights to your rims when they get balanced.

it's not that bad... i dont think it needs balancing... the shafts are there to shut the motor up moreso than balance it. there is a harmonic at about 2500, but it's outwieghed by the fact it continues to haul right past the redline to about 7k

OOk, so somewhat of a threadmine,

I was looking through ebay just before, stumbled accross BSEK.

Mine's rattling again (tensioner needs tightening) and im thinking, maybe I should just piss the shafts off altogether.
Thing is i'm not overly keen on once again ripping the engine out to do it, so can it be done with the engine on an angle like how you'd go about doing the timing chain?

What exactly needs to be done? what I gather from here,

timing chain removed
balance shaft chain removed
remove upper balance shaft
remove lower balance shaft
use chain from BSEK from crank to oil pump
close timing case

obviously this is a very simple way of saying it, but BASICALLY is this how it's done? very interested in doing it very soon...

I think a lot of the changes you guys are reporting has more to do with other thing you did during and after the stripdown , than just removing the balance shafts.

There isnt a modified Sigma in the country that still has balance shafts. We have been ditching them for 20 years.

As to any noticeable differences. As stated reduced chain noise. Little difference to vibration and little difference to performance.

Umm, instead of running an elimination kit, you can just go buy yourself a Canter (truck) oil pump, they used to run the 2.6 back in the day and never ran harmonic balancers at all, saves an elimination kit, and the gearing on the canter pump is bigger which will lower your oil pressure by about 20psi. Perfectly fine to run in a 2.6 seeing as they are such a big 4cyl

Umm, instead of running an elimination kit, you can just go buy yourself a Canter (truck) oil pump, they used to run the 2.6 back in the day and never ran harmonic balancers at all, saves an elimination kit, and the gearing on the canter pump is bigger which will lower your oil pressure by about 20psi. Perfectly fine to run in a 2.6 seeing as they are such a big 4cyl

Sorry but no, the kit is used to block off an oil passage as well as provide a chain to run from the crank to the oil pump. As this chain is short with will not rattle (plus is not under much load)

You can use the canter oil pump I guess, that will only solve the part where you place the blind shaft in the oil pump.

The kit is worth bugger all to buy and you are far better doing it.

Yeah the kit is heaps cheaper to do... mine was more if you wanna go all out and eliminate your shafts. When I rang mitsi, they had the short chain for the pump as a part of it as well, I just had to ask for it. Ill get a pic of the canter one for all to see....
You will note how much bigger the drive gear on the pump is compared to a magna one if someone has a pic they could upload?
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m200/D-NYD/canteroilpump.jpg

Thanks guys, sounds like this is what im looking at doing because I really am sick of the stupid rattle on what effectively is a baby engine.

so one last question, can the actual shafts be taken out with the engine in or MUST the engine be removed for the process?

Thanks guys, sounds like this is what im looking at doing because I really am sick of the stupid rattle on what effectively is a baby engine.

so one last question, can the actual shafts be taken out with the engine in or MUST the engine be removed for the process?

engine must come out to get the shafts out of the block.

Mate, I would NOT put that one on my car, the oil pump pulley is WAY to large and the oil pimp will slow down too much.

The proper one for the Magna has a large pulley on the crank and small on the oil pump to spin that little bugger up nice and fast for good low down pressure.

The eliminator kit is avail for around 30 - 40 bucks, just use that and do it properly