Hey guys,

great site, been reading a lot in the audio section lately, a lot of helpful posts on preparing the front speaker (mdf template etc) - I did a search and read up on posts regarding rear speakers (interested in 6inch with template V 6x9's - I know which would sound better of course!) also found useful info, but I could not find what I really wanted...

I have noticed a LOT of members tend to just throw in the 6x9's even if they have subs, splits etc. Fair enough I say, as if I cannot do a reasonable job at a template to hold some 6inchers in the rear, then I will probably do the same thing! (I will give it a go, as I previously made my own box for subs in my silvia and it turned out well, will also be doing the panel for the front speakers)

My questions are: does anyone have a template for a panel to fit the 6inchers in the standard 6x9's spot? (rear) How hard is it to make? and if u have one and have pics, please post em.

Do 6x9's really sound that terrible? (when having subs in the back) compared to 6inchers and subs - or do the subs just make the 6x9's bass redundant, but u still end up with reasonable sound 'music' coming from the speakers?

Just to give an idea, my previous systems were budget but still reasonable and decent enough sound for me (decent JBL 6 inchers in front & rear of silvia - no splits! Clarion headunit & stacker, cheapie Saint 900W amp and 2 x 10inch Pioneer subs in very large box - basically took up most of the floorspace of boot. My wife's corolla is Jensen 4inch & 6inch in front & rear, JVC deck and 1 cheapie Boss 15inch sub in box & cheapie Boss 1000w amp to run it - still pumps hard though).

As the silvia's speakers and stacker went with new owner, I intend on using some old parts and some new, but again on a budget. With a baby coming along, I just want reasonable sound, but not large $$$!

I was thinking the best way to go is to use the 15inch sub in the Magna, I am buying a new JVC mp3 player (basic deck) which also comes with 6inch 200w 3way. (use these for the front). Then either buy the Pioneer 260w 3way 6x9's that are going for $88, or buy a reasonable 6inch for up to about $120 (eg: JVC 6.5inch 200w $100 if will fit or MTX 6inch 3way 260w $89, Pioneer 3way 220w $99 etc), and make the holder for the rear.

May still consider the 2 10's fitting in the boot, if it fits (as is very long, wide & narrow, would have to stand up - thinking it may just fit and therefore not take up much depth in the boot) I am used to more punchy quick bass (ie 2x10's), but even though the 15inch is a cheapy, think it may overall sound better in a large boot like the magna's (than 2x10's) - it pumps really hard in the corolla.

Note that I will not really be moving much with my budget - so please take this into account with feedback -

basically budget is:
$230 JVC Headdeck (new) includes 6inch speakers for front (HU & speak's already purchased)
$120 max for 6x9's or 6inchers as specified above and of course the usual cost for the rca's, cabling, fuse, mdf for parcel shelf, front etc (not counting this cost as not fussed about it - needs to be done and done properly regardless. Install will be me & a mate - done it before)

Opinions please on all of the above (both good and bad!)
and yet again, sorry for such a long post. :)

cheers.

6x9's mixed with a sub cancel out certain frequencies...i think they MITE be better on a separate amp/rca line, never run 6x9's off hu power (gets too much bass, once again with the cancelling)

jvc 6" go good. i have a set of 200w 4ways (even tho the 4 tweeters really dont do much) and they go good off the hu. altho i will need to amp my next set due to the fact they have bin pushed to hard, and the voice coil is starting to rattle...LOLZ

so yeah, id say get 6" and make the template, and get a phat sub. also consider splits for the front, as u will get drowned out with bass and hardly hear the words and other higher frequencies

6x9's mixed with a sub cancel out certain frequencies...i think they MITE be better on a separate amp/rca line, never run 6x9's off hu power (gets too much bass, once again with the cancelling)

jvc 6" go good. i have a set of 200w 4ways (even tho the 4 tweeters really dont do much) and they go good off the hu. altho i will need to amp my next set due to the fact they have bin pushed to hard, and the voice coil is starting to rattle...LOLZ

so yeah, id say get 6" and make the template, and get a phat sub. also consider splits for the front, as u will get drowned out with bass and hardly hear the words and other higher frequencies


cheers for that manifesto. was thinking of not running any speakers at this stage off an amp, the sub/s only... well that's not true actually... depends on what I settle on!

IF I use the 15, which is the way I am leaning to - can run a set of speakers off the amp and also the sub (amp is 4 ch). As I want rear speakers as fill only (for a little sound, make it a little more surround) would it then be better to use half of amp for front speakers?
ah ... so many Q's!!! (If I can build this holder for the 6inchers in the back, will definitely get the 6inchers and maybe still run the fronts off the amp?!) and the other half for the sub..

IF I use the 10's which is looking less likely, would still use the better of the cheapie amps (much of a muchness but think the Boss 1000w should be better!) and run the subs only off the amp, no speakers off it, as I had this in the silvia and still sounded okay (but smaller car obviously, so different).

And I can always lower the bass if the subs are going to drown out the music.
Unfortunately, although I would like to - splits not an option at this stage (maybe later down the track - would rather wait and not buy some crappy cheap ones and spend the money on reasonable plain old 6inchers for now)

thanks again for the feedback. :)

keep 'em coming!!!

jaycar kevlar splits - rated better than any split up to $600... the jaycar splits come in at a very nice $140...(christmas prezzie material! beg ur folks :P)

6's, 4 of them should run ok off the hu providing they arnt those bs speakers that companies bring out that say they are like 400w or anything (they chew power, sound crap...)

that jvc headunit is great. BUT if u can save up another $70 get the next model up (same as myn cant memba model number...) it has a separate sub out rca line.

15's in my opinion is mainly just wank factor...better off with 2*12's OR one 12 in a custom box (specificaly designed for that sub, as each sub has diffrent box size requirements. too big, looses punch and sounds muddy, too small, sound gets distorted in pitch etc.)

oh yeah one more thing, dont splurge on subs/speakers and get a crappy amp. the amp gives the speakers the signal and the speakers interpret it. u get good speakers with crappy signal = crappy sound. not as good speakers, good amp = decent sound etc :D

jaycar kevlar splits - rated better than any split up to $600... the jaycar splits come in at a very nice $140...(christmas prezzie material! beg ur folks :P)

6's, 4 of them should run ok off the hu providing they arnt those bs speakers that companies bring out that say they are like 400w or anything (they chew power, sound crap...)

that jvc headunit is great. BUT if u can save up another $70 get the next model up (same as myn cant memba model number...) it has a separate sub out rca line.

15's in my opinion is mainly just wank factor...better off with 2*12's OR one 12 in a custom box (specificaly designed for that sub, as each sub has diffrent box size requirements. too big, looses punch and sounds muddy, too small, sound gets distorted in pitch etc.)

oh yeah one more thing, dont splurge on subs/speakers and get a crappy amp. the amp gives the speakers the signal and the speakers interpret it. u get good speakers with crappy signal = crappy sound. not as good speakers, good amp = decent sound etc :D


yeah, pity bout the amps, that I already bought them a few years ago (will have to wait a little while longer now!). so seeing as I am not going to fork out for 2x12's, in ur opinion do u think out of what I have, that the 2x10's may be the way to go?

Yeah I might be able to squeeze another few $$ and get the Jaycar splits then, but as far as the headunit goes, as have already purchased it, will not be changing my mind... :cry:

...I have to draw the line somewhere as will have other more important costs (the baby and also a few small things I want to do to the magna - re-tint, lower, fix a dent - more $$$$ - I did get the Magna at a bargain price though as bought from family friend - apart from the dent is in immaculate condition - I am getting off-topic here!!!)

cheers again for ur comments & feedback manifesto.

anyone else??? :)

--"6x9's mixed with a sub cancel out certain frequencies...i think they MITE be better on a separate amp/rca line, never run 6x9's off hu power (gets too much bass, once again with the cancelling)"--

you may be able to sort this out by being carefull with the cutoff frequencies on the high and low pass filters in the system. might be hard depending on the gear you are using though.

Also, i have read that by reversing the polarity of either the 6x9's or the sub (i would reverse the 6x9's) this problem can be overcome. this came from what i think is a pretty reputable source and it makes perfect sense to me anyway. in theory this setup should actually constructively interfere with the frequecies (ie make them louder) however, in practive this may not be the case.

having said all this i would probably go with 6.5" all round too, but it might not be worth making the bracket to suit (i plan to put 6x9's in my car too, i am lazy).

hope this helps

also, can someone point me to a review of the kevlar jaycar splits. i cant find anything on the internet.

Use your stock 6x9 speaker as guide, use MDF and cut to size. Use the existing holes to secure it down and cut a 6inch hole in the middle. Make sure the MDF is thin though so you can put the factory grill back over the top.

Jaycar splits are ok for the money. $300 is where the next level of better sound is with Boston Type S, Hertz HSK 165's, Vibe SA60's, Morel Pulse 6 etc. The staging will be much better with splits and give you a level of sound that is way better than the coaxial. Defusers and deadening will help the mid range response alot.

A single 12inch sub will be enough. For smallish systems a 3 or 4 channel amp is enough to power the front stage and a sub. Avoid the boss amp, if I told you that it is was tested at under 30WRMS per channel ( BA1000 ) would you buy that over say the jaycar 4 x50WRMS which is $40 more? Subs can be had for under $200 boxed. The Kicker ES 12inch in a perpex box from JB is only $199, is rated at 125WRMS so needs minimal power to run. :D

www.jaycar.com.au i think has some in user comments? cant memba...read my info in a hot 4's special audio edition i think


DONT REVERSE POLARITY! THIS CAN AND WILL DAMMAGE THE VOICE COIL!

my mates voice coils melted because he turned them up abit too loud, speakers were moving the opposite way to wat theyr meant to, ac current gets turned to dc, coil melts lol...

same as dont use the "loud" setting on ur head unit. this increases the frequency peaks which can also turn the ac current into dc causing coil to melt, not to mention do extreem dammage to your ears (as the peaks become un-natural and yeah...)

--"6x9's mixed with a sub cancel out certain frequencies...i think they MITE be better on a separate amp/rca line, never run 6x9's off hu power (gets too much bass, once again with the cancelling)"--

you may be able to sort this out by being carefull with the cutoff frequencies on the high and low pass filters in the system. might be hard depending on the gear you are using though.

Also, i have read that by reversing the polarity of either the 6x9's or the sub (i would reverse the 6x9's) this problem can be overcome. this came from what i think is a pretty reputable source and it makes perfect sense to me anyway. in theory this setup should actually constructively interfere with the frequecies (ie make them louder) however, in practive this may not be the case.

having said all this i would probably go with 6.5" all round too, but it might not be worth making the bracket to suit (i plan to put 6x9's in my car too, i am lazy).

hope this helps

Unfortuately the only way to overcome this concellation would be to have both parties running off amps with phase control. If the sub and rear fill are 90degrees out of phase then reversing the polarity will adjust 1 party 180degrees but in the end they are still going to be 90degree out of phase and thus.. cancellation.

Best thing to do is HP your rear fill at a high value. 100-150Hz is a good mark. Most subs are low passed at 100Hz or below so that helps the sub bass cancellation problem. :D

www.jaycar.com.au i think has some in user comments? cant memba...read my info in a hot 4's special audio edition i think


DONT REVERSE POLARITY! THIS CAN AND WILL DAMMAGE THE VOICE COIL!

my mates voice coils melted because he turned them up abit too loud, speakers were moving the opposite way to wat theyr meant to, ac current gets turned to dc, coil melts lol...

same as dont use the "loud" setting on ur head unit. this increases the frequency peaks which can also turn the ac current into dc causing coil to melt, not to mention do extreem dammage to your ears (as the peaks become un-natural and yeah...)

I wish Jason from Hot4s got his head out of his A$$ and looked at other brands. All you see is Sony vs Pioneer vs JBL vs Jaycar vs DLS vs JL with sometime Polk throw in.

Reversong polarity will not damage your speakers. What will damage them though is trying to match the volume produced by something that is in phase to something that is out of phase. Speakers move in and out. Xmax is there measurement and say is something has an Xmax of 10mm then it has an Xmech of 20mm.

Same with the loud setting, all you are doing is making the amp clip and sending your speaker a distorted signal not allowing proper cooling to your voice coil. It something is in phase, reversing the polarity and thus changing a speaker 180degrees in phase will make the speaker noticably quite. It is like facing a sub forward into the cabin, then rear load against the tale lights. To make the forwards facing sub as loud as the rear loaded one, you will need to turn the volume up and clipping will usually follow, then a busted voice coil.

Use your stock 6x9 speaker as guide, use MDF and cut to size. Use the existing holes to secure it down and cut a 6inch hole in the middle. Make sure the MDF is thin though so you can put the factory grill back over the top.

Jaycar splits are ok for the money. $300 is where the next level of better sound is with Boston Type S, Hertz HSK 165's, Vibe SA60's, Morel Pulse 6 etc. The staging will be much better with splits and give you a level of sound that is way better than the coaxial. Defusers and deadening will help the mid range response alot.

A single 12inch sub will be enough. For smallish systems a 3 or 4 channel amp is enough to power the front stage and a sub. Avoid the boss amp, if I told you that it is was tested at under 30WRMS per channel ( BA1000 ) would you buy that over say the jaycar 4 x50WRMS which is $40 more? Subs can be had for under $200 boxed. The Kicker ES 12inch in a perpex box from JB is only $199, is rated at 125WRMS so needs minimal power to run. :D



that is a very good idea, Mr charisma, very good thinking, I will attempt this. Yeah I will make sure the wood is thin (but still strong enough) as from reading other threads I understand that apparently there is not much clearance to the standard grill (but I am thinking that if I ended up with the JVC's they should not be as 'tall' as say other brands (MTX, JBL etc) ...

look I appreciate all u guy's comments/advice/feedback etc - even from reading this short thread I have picked up more, have a little bit more of an understanding (I am no audio expert!) ....
but respectfully, I was after suggestions specific to my situation...

...meaning all of the q's intially asked above ^^^ please, please no suggestions of 1 x 12 or 2 12's cause as I said at this stage I will be making use with what I have already and only be adding the couple of speakers ...

...so with all due respect, can I ask again under the current scenario as stated, what would be my best bet (out of the 2x10's, 15 etc)
I get the jist of the rear speakers - will try to fit 6's for sure, only throw in the 6x9's if desparate.
...For the fronts I realise splits would be best - depending on timing (and stuffing around) I may still go with just 6's in the front as well, for now. IF this is the case - would it still be better to run the fronts off the amp and the subs in the back as well? (and not bother running the rears off anything)

please ask me if u don't know where I am coming from!! :confused: :)

thanks again and sorry to be anal!!!

Dont be afraid to ask. Another way of doing it is to make the baffle and mount the 6 / 6.5inch speakers underneath through the hole. Do this by cutting out the hole so the surround is not going to hit the edge. Hop in the boot and use screw to mount the speaker with the cone (s) facing the cabin and the magnat in the boot. All you need is a baffle to make the mid range and lower end audiable.

To make your car sound like your at a concert you need splits up front for accurate staging. They should also be amped if possible and as for the sub no headunit puts out enough power to run a sub so that will need to amped as well. A good 4channel amp will do this no worries.

As for subs it should not be a question of 1x 12 or 2x 12's but how much power at what ohmage do I have on offer. With all 4 channels the minium load across 2 bridged channels is 4ohm which limits you to either, A single 4 ohm coil, 2x 2ohm coils or 2 x 8ohm coils. It will be a lot cheap to get the above combination in 1 sub being is Single 4 ohm coil or Dual voice coil and have DVC 2ohm / 8 ohm coils. DVC 4ohm will not work if it is bridged but can work if you run it sterio. You will only really have enough power for a single decent 10 or 12inch sub on your budget.

6x9's and Subs can live in Harmony

I have 6x9's and Two 12inch subs in a Custom enclosure..
The Frequency cancellation comes when the 6x9's and Subs are given the exact same Signal, this is where a Deck with Sub out comes in Handy..

The 6x9's are tuned to handle the Lower Midbass while the Subs handle the sub Bass..

The only problem with this setup is when you are cranking at High to Extremely loud levels, the 6x9's have a large Surface area and the Air Pressure from the Subs push the 6x9's into over excursion, to deal with this, you simple fade the system forward a little...

It can be done with very suprising results..

also, can someone point me to a review of the kevlar jaycar splits. i cant find anything on the internet.

I couldnt find any when I was looking, so I went and had a listen to them for myself.

They are good, but lack a big chunk of mid bass. Tweeters can be a liiiittle bit bright as well.

MUCH better off buying 2 6.5" Kevlar woofers (CS2230 - they are sold individually, not in pairs), a pair of super tweeters (CS2210) and 2 crossovers for the tweeters (CX2640). This setup sounds HEAPS better and isnt priced to badly either. You can check the prices on Jaycars website. I personally think this combination is equal with a lot of high end splits ive listened to.

Cheers
Pete

sorry for straying off topic again, but in my mind 180 degrees out of phase is what you want, not 90 degrees. it is late so maybe i am not thinking right. I figure the cancellation of frequencies comes frome the fact that the rear of the 6X9 is in the same space as the front of the sub. so 180 degrees out of phase should do it.

Also, MANIFESTO. Can you please explain how reversing the polarity turns AC current to DC? are you reffering to clipping? When you say AC do you mean the current varying with the frequency being produced or do you mean AC like in a house?

sorry, that one confused me a bit.

Oh, and i read about the reversed polarity solution in a polk audio sub manual. i am pretty sure they know what they are talking about. they would not recomend something that will cost them in warrenty claims.

Reversing Polarity on Speakers does not result in frying them..

When you Reverse polarity it masks harmful frequencies meaning a Clipped signal can be sent but un noticed due to reduced audible distortion

Speaker Travel is set by the speakers motor structure and surround, direction is Irrelevent unless you are talking speakers that share the same enclosure is involved where Reverse polarity can cause Mechanical stress and therefore Break down

in General you can run speakers in opposite Phase with no damage

Some people run Tweeters in Reverse Polarity as it increases the percieved High range of them...

In some Bizzare Cases, installing speakers with Reverse Polarity can enhance Audio performance...

sorry for straying off topic again, but in my mind 180 degrees out of phase is what you want, not 90 degrees. it is late so maybe i am not thinking right. I figure the cancellation of frequencies comes frome the fact that the rear of the 6X9 is in the same space as the front of the sub. so 180 degrees out of phase should do it.

Also, MANIFESTO. Can you please explain how reversing the polarity turns AC current to DC? are you reffering to clipping? When you say AC do you mean the current varying with the frequency being produced or do you mean AC like in a house?

sorry, that one confused me a bit.

Oh, and i read about the reversed polarity solution in a polk audio sub manual. i am pretty sure they know what they are talking about. they would not recomend something that will cost them in warrenty claims.

It is very hard to tell exactly how out of phase speakers are, if the are 50deg out if you reverse the polarity you will make it 130deg out. Phase control on amps are the best way but take a long time. HP/LP filters with a 12db / octave slope ( or more ) are the best.