Okay, i've been playing around with my car for a while, trying to get the dreaded 2.6litre fuel guzzler to be a bit less thirsty. So for the last couple months i've been trying differnent fuels, spark plugs, spark plug gaps and ignition timing. And gradually i've noticed improvements. I still drive the same, give it a boot every now and then, make sure the rev limiter is still working.

At the start of all this my car was getting 400-450km off a tank, the worst i got was 380 off 60 litres. so the first thing i did was replaced spark plugs with new ones, and changed to premium unleaded. the PULP 98 octane, on its own brought my car to just under the 500km on average.
After this i advanced the ignition timing quite dramatically, its at about 23-25 BTDC, its off the little gauge so i cant actually tell how far it is. but this too improved mileage and at the same time the throttle felt much more responsive.
I was pretty happy the fuel averages i was getting then, 520-540. A great improvement over what i used to be getting. But i couldnt stop lets see how good i can get it.
Next thing i tried was a bigger spark plug gap. NGK recommend a BP6ES (i think thats what it is) for the 2.6litre, this has a 0.8mm gap standard. I replaced this plug with a BP6ES-11 which has a 1.1mm gap. (yes i could have just changed the gap on the old oens but i didnt have feeler gauges on me) Ran these for 2 tanks no problems but fuel economy didnt really change. Started reading up about spark plugs on the net, bla bla bla bla bla. Came to the conclusion i'd try a colder Plug. In went the BP7ES-11. (one stage cooler plug. the higher the number after the BP the colder the plug).....1st Tank after doing this 570km's.
After a couple tanks i thought i'd try some "Ethanol enchanced" Premium Unleaded fuel called Boost98 from United Petroleum, just to see what all the fuss is about. Well lets just say i wont be going back to normal fuel. 620km's off 59.3 litres.
I still drive exactly the same as back when i was getting 400km's average. If anything i do less highway driving as i work closer to home now. Anyone whose seen me drive knows i dont drive like a grandma.

So to sum it up......Ultimate setting for my TR.

Advanced Ignition Timing: approx 24 BTDC
Spark Plug - BP7ES - 11. Colder plug with a bigger gap.
Fuel - BOOST98 10% ethanol
Well Maintained Engine

Good Luck.


http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/images/chartheatratingflowpath.gif

Some Info on spark plugs if anyones interested (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/techtips.asp?nav=31000&country=US)

So any ideas on what a V6 owner would have to do to get the same results, we don't run identicle plugs correct? (I know i've already talked to you about this but just for the benefit of everyone else).

..After a couple tanks i thought i'd try some "Ethanol enchanced" Premium Unleaded fuel called Boost98 from United Petroleum, just to see what all the fuss is about. Well lets just say i wont be going back to normal fuel...

I'm having great success with the ethanol as well. I whacked in some NGK's and Top Gun ignition leads then started running the PlusULP which is the 94oct fuel from United. Im now getting just under 500km from a tank compared to 400km.

Fantastic to see 620km from ur's!!! I might give it go and see what happens (i've got the feeler gauges on me this time hehehe)

So any ideas on what a V6 owner would have to do to get the same results, we don't run identicle plugs correct? (I know i've already talked to you about this but just for the benefit of everyone else).

The v6 actually runs the same plug with the bigger gap.....so it runs the BP6ES-11. Thats the plug i first changed to. Now im running a cooler plug, so maybe give that a go. The reason im running the cooler plug is due to the amount i have advanced the timing and the PULP fuel though. So without advancing i dunno if its really worth it.

I forgot to mention earlier, i've really noticed a difference since running the colder plug and ethanol fuel. the car seems to rev alot better from 3800-5500rpm.

u keep the timing up that high your going to burn out your valves

u keep the timing up that high your going to burn out your valves


Yeh what he said!! :nuts:

u keep the timing up that high your going to burn out your valves
I have no idea the effects of what you're doing, but if it was the case where you'd get both more fuel economy and power, why would they not include this stock?

:D Good work man... Hopefully i can advance the timing on my TS sometime soon.


u keep the timing up that high your going to burn out your valves

How exactly would that happen? and how long would it take to do major damage?



I have no idea the effects of what you're doing, but if it was the case where you'd get both more fuel economy and power, why would they not include this stock?

Mostly for reliability purposes... theres the potential to do major damage; theres no garantee that the owner of a vehicle would run 98ron on advanced timing all the time... so the timing had to be set at a safe level from factory for all conditions.

changing the timing changes the clyinders heat which can lean towards valves overheating-burining out

2 things that normaly burn valves are lean mixture and timing


normaly you would hear it ping. but if using hi rated fuels you wont hear it
the factory setting is 10deg btdc 23 deg in more than double
at the most 15 deg btdc unless using race fuels and nos ect

as for how long would it last ???? how long is a piece of string

Samurai? u got a defense to this?..

changing the timing changes the clyinders heat which can lean towards valves overheating-burining out

2 things that normaly burn valves are lean mixture and timing


normaly you would hear it ping. but if using hi rated fuels you wont hear it
the factory setting is 10deg btdc 23 deg in more than double
at the most 15 deg btdc unless using race fuels and nos ect

as for how long would it last ???? how long is a piece of string

I thought he was using cooler plugs, when burning the pulp wouldn't this mean the temps are lower? thereby returning the cyl temp back to an acceptable level by advancing the timing... but not perfectly, thats just what i was thinking when i read what you said, im probably totally wrong, also, how can you tell what is going to be safe and whats not with samurais ideas, trial and tears?

exactly nicko.......the cooler plug reduces combustion chamber temperatures by 70-100degrees celsius.

I've had the timing advanced for about 8 months now, it used to be on 16-17 now its a bit more.

Heat range selection is vital to ensure optimum performance of spark plugs.

A spark plug's optimum operating temperature is between 450 degrees C and 870 degrees C. Spark plug tip temperatures outside this range can occur when an incorrect heat rating is selected. Viz:

When the heat rating is too high:

The spark plug temperature remains too low and causes deposits to build up on the firing end; the deposits offer an electrical leakage path that gives rise to loss of sparks.

When the heat rating is too low:

The spark plug temperature rises too high and induces abnormal combustion (pre-ignition): this leads to melting of the spark plug electrodes as well as piston seizure and erosion.

NGK Spark Plugs pioneered the use of a copper cored electrode in 1958, which enables a spark plug to heat up quickly and also dissipate heat quickly giving an ultra wide heat range. It is essential to use a spark plug that fits a specific engine and its conditions of use.

As spark plugs are positioned in the head of an engine, their analysis can give a good indication of how your engine is operating.

hmmmm good work i see your Copy And Paste skills are pretty good.

Magnus i can see that once again u disagree with what someone has done, u seem to do that alot...thats fine, im not forcing anyone to do it, merely showing people what i have achieved with a bit of experimenting and knowledge.

I dont know what yur trying to achieve by posting what u just did, i've read it all before. I didnt just chuck a colder plug in for the hell of it, i put it in after observing what my other spark plugs looked like. And with the cooler plug they are just fine. I wasnt getting any preignition but they looked like i could use a cooler one, and thats exactly what i did.

Lets say my original plugs with the advanced timing were operating at 870degrees. That means i can put in a Spark plug upto 4 stages COOLER, as it will still keep it in optimum temperature. (So i could go from a BP6ES, to a BP10ES, if they even make those). The face i have only gone 1 stage cooler, i.e, BP7ES. Means it is still quite in the operating range, as each stage cooler reduces by combustion chamber temperatures by 70-100 degrees celsius.

Hmmm makes sense, how much are the cooler spark plugs worth?
Might try it myself, but probably not seen as i'm selling it soon.

exactly the same as normal plugs. i only buy NGK individual plugs, they cost about $2-$3 each. Dont waste my money on $50 spark plugs.

exactly the same as normal plugs. i only buy NGK individual plugs, they cost about $2-$3 each. Dont waste my money on $50 spark plugs.
So from what i can gather, putting in cooler plugs WITHOUT advancing the timing will have a negative affect right?
Might get my mechanic to do it for me :P.

i dont know if it will have a negative effect. the only reason i put a cooler plug was because i needed it.

Samuria;

add 5 degrees timing or advance it till it pings then back it off with ULP!
make a 2L stainless bottle and use vacuum line and a small nozzel and use it for water injection, use the vacuum of the manifold to draw the water in[1].
dont buy hiclones and dont buy anything but NGK 3 dollar each plugs!

you should see about 10 extra km per tank at least from the water vapour.

[1]
when driving, dont throttle past around 10in/hg which will still draw water in, at wot nothing will be drawn in. jet the vacuum line with a aquarium screw type restrictor until 1 tank of water lasts about 2 tanks of fuel.

you can use a coke bottle or your washer bottle just tap another hole in it so that it still has washer abilities.

yes that was a cut and paist from www.ngk.com.au
1 step cooler in plug shouldnt be a problem but having the timing up that high might

all this talk about fuel economy, is making me thirsty!!
i have the V6 motor, now i was averaging 550 - 600 a tank (65 litres..)
i have dropped some bosch super 4's into the motor (about 3 years ago, never need to adjust these things) and i am averaging now around 700 a tank..
no fiddling or nothing!
not sure if this is what anyone wants to here but thats all i did,

oh and the V6 motor HATES ethanol fuel..
it stall and cuts out, revs funny, no way i am putting that stuff in my car again!

could be your ecu reading that there is more ethanol in the fuel. my TJ did the same thing for the first tank and then it was fine

Ok, a question to samurai... you say that you advanced your timing to around 24deg btdc. Is it 24deg when the spark advance cut is earthed? or is it 24 deg when unearthed?

btw, can i ask how you estimated 24deg? did you just double the length from tdc to 10deg then add roughly 5? (if you know what i mean... sorry for the crap explanation)

The reason i'm asking is because i was wanting to do this mod myself, but upon checking my timing i find that when the advance cut is unearthed, my timing jumps from around 16deg to 24deg. but when earthed is sits fairly steadily on 4deg.

So if i was to advance the timing to say 10deg unearthed, would that mean it would spike to 28 or 29deg?

I'm just wanting to know how to safely advance the timing...

Cheers.

Not sure of the exact degrees, but you need to earth it otherwise you can't safely advance the timing. You need it steady to get it right.

i only get 350 clicks per tank from my V6, im spewing.

oh and the V6 motor HATES ethanol fuel..
it stall and cuts out, revs funny, no way i am putting that stuff in my car again!
I've been running mine about 2/3 of the time lately with 95octane 10% ethanol, and haven't noticed any negative side effects.

Firestorm just to add to your PM, my timing mark was sittin pretty much in the same spot without the connector earthed, originally it was on about 8 BTDC, so i went out to 24. If your's sits on 16 to 24deg unearthed, i'd probly advance it to about 10-12 with the connector earthed.

btw car is still gettin 600km's + from a tank.

Completely OT, but Samurai I just noticed your front blinkers, are they the standard clear and orange with some sort of tinting happening? I assume from the looks of it that the outer edges are tinted darker, with a lighter tint through the center? I was just mocking up something like this last night, any tips on what you did?

i only get 350 clicks per tank from my V6, im spewing.

tell me about it, thats what I get :( Have you tried to troubleshoot it at all? I've had a new o2 sensor, better spark plugs, replaced leads, differenet fuels, etc. Can't work it out :(

Kim

yeah i have actually, changed fuel filter, changed driving style, im going for plugs, leads, air filter, and fixing the O2 very soon.

Completely OT, but Samurai I just noticed your front blinkers, are they the standard clear and orange with some sort of tinting happening? I assume from the looks of it that the outer edges are tinted darker, with a lighter tint through the center? I was just mocking up something like this last night, any tips on what you did?

yeh standard clear indicators with tint aroudn the outside. i actualyl copied it off some dude a 6-7months ago.

i get 400 - 420 if push my car to the limit, i just changed my inigition leaders and this week coming up i will changing my tires, so hopefully it improves it.

hmmm weird, every time i get spark plugs changed (every about 20000-30000km) it starts to run fine, when i try to put higher octane fuel in, it chews through plugs and drops mileage by quite a bit.. i might talk to my mechanic about using other spark plugs, he probably gets the really cheap ones..

i get 400 - 420 if push my car to the limit, i just changed my inigition leaders and this week coming up i will changing my tires, so hopefully it improves it.

make sure every fortnight you go to the sevro and check your tyre pressures this little factor will also help save fuel:)

']make sure every fortnight you go to the sevro and check your tyre pressures this little factor will also help save fuel:)


Correct.

I drive large Km to and from work each fortnight from up northern QLD (one way trip is 900Km) and I always ensure my tyres are checked before each trip to or from work, and I always set them at 38PSI front and 36PSI rear.

When running on normal unleaded, I average 410 from 55 litres
on 95 octane I get 500km from 55 litres,

and
on BP Ultimate 98 octane I get 580-640Km from 51 litres.

So its worth it to me to pay about 10 cents/litre more for the really good fuel, especially when I need that little bit extra "getup and GO" to pass outback Aussie roadtrains.

ok i just wanted to check coz i get pretty crappy fuel effeciency with my 4cyl, 12.5-13L/100kms so i checked my timing today to see. The picture below shows where the mark was but this was without the timing advance cut terminal being earthed. so estimated at 13deg BTDC right which is the mitsu spec for the engine. So how am i supposed to acurately get it anywhere near 20deg BTDC when it only measures up to 10. OR am i supposed to measure it when earthed which is supposed to be 5deg BTDC to spec and change the earthed reading, in which case what earthed reading is equivilant to 20deg unearthed BTDC?

If anyone can understand my jargon then thou art a better man than i, and thanx in advance, if theres a reply.

take dissy out and turn it 1 tooth
this is not recomended

take dissy out and turn it 1 tooth
this is not recomended
not recomended? i only want to take it to about 18deg BTDC. why is that so bad? If you have any other suggestions as to how and lean my mixture out please do tell. i am more than willing to listen to any suggestions. my car is running rich and i cant think of any other ways to lean it out.

timing wont chang the running rich you have other problems get the o2 checked

i should have mentioned but the reason im looking for any obscure reason is that ive tried everything that i can think of. It has a new oxygen sensor, its regularly serviced, timming chain has been replaced a couple of years ago, tyre pressure is fine and checked regularly, ive tried running a slightly thinner oil in 15w40 to see if that makes a difference, and nothing, i mean nothing has helped my fuel effeciency, it simply still runs rich.

go get it put on a gas bench

wont this simply tell me what i already know?? that its running rich. im not 100% sure coz ive never used one before but from what i hear its basically an FTIR analyser which i have worked with before and all it tells you is composition of exhaust gases.

Just a quick question, is the A/T Mode button pressed? what does it do?

Just a quick question, is the A/T Mode button pressed? what does it do?
A little PWR light will be displayed on your dash, and when you press the accelerator it'll kick down quicker/to a lower gear than normal. It will also rev right out to 5500 rpm under full acceleration.

yeah, basically just makes the car rev a little higher before changing gears.

Hmmm... perhaps thats why i havent been getting good milage everyweek... ive only had the car for 3 weeks and just noticed last night that the button was pressed... no light on dash so there was no way for me to know... :(

wont this simply tell me what i already know?? that its running rich. im not 100% sure coz ive never used one before but from what i hear its basically an FTIR analyser which i have worked with before and all it tells you is composition of exhaust gases.
How do you know that your car is running rich by the way cos without putting it on a gas bench I have no idea how you'd know. The only way to lean out the efis is to change the fuel maps on the ecu. Or possibly to lower the fuel pressure, I don't advise doing this.

How do you know that your car is running rich by the way cos without putting it on a gas bench I have no idea how you'd know. The only way to lean out the efis is to change the fuel maps on the ecu. Or possibly to lower the fuel pressure, I don't advise doing this.
i hooked up a voltage meter to the oxygen sensor and while driving measured the varying voltage. It is running rich beleive me.
and the excessive carbon deposits which keep building up around exhaust and other similar not very scientific methods.

Old fashioned way of checking for richness - check the spark plugs!
grey/tan is normal
white is lean
black is rich or oil burning

- - assuming you have the normal plugs in the car of course.

Replace the O2 sensor, then recheck voltage output. If no change, suspect faulty ECU - it has a "default" fuel setting when it cannot read O2 sensor output.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4971/12857061wn4.jpg

looks to me like hes adding to it...

i hooked up a voltage meter to the oxygen sensor and while driving measured the varying voltage. It is running rich beleive me.
and the excessive carbon deposits which keep building up around exhaust and other similar not very scientific methods.

Or your O2 sensor is on it's way out. Unleaded fuel will leave black deposits no matter how it runs.
Neither method you have used is telling you much, except that maybe your O2 sensor is gone.

Regards, Andrew.

Or your O2 sensor is on it's way out. Unleaded fuel will leave black deposits no matter how it runs.
Neither method you have used is telling you much, except that maybe your O2 sensor is gone.

Regards, Andrew.
The thread is 2 years old I'm sure he's fixed it by now

hahaha that pic is great.

']The thread is 2 years old I'm sure he's fixed it by now
:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl:
what else is there to say??

']The thread is 2 years old I'm sure he's fixed it by now


Considering it resurfaced after someone else posted, why don;t you go and make a smart ass comment about that person instead.
Do you have anythign useful to add?

Regards, Andrew.

humm, after reading all this I might have to have a play with the v6....

My Magna TR SE does 315K per 50L Tank... Any suggestions ?