Well, I've finished all the mods I had planned but I'm a little disappointed with the power output.

Here's what I've done:
17" rims with 235/45 Yoko C-Drives
Whiteline works suspension incl. Koni adjustables, whiteline front and rear sway bars, whiteline flatout springs.
K&N panel filter
RPW race extractors
custom 2.5" exhaust with high-flow cat and custom performance muffler (made by MRT performance in Sydney)
Unichip (tuned for 98RON fuel of course)

Since the Unichip was fitted and tuned on saturday I'm making 132.1kW at the wheels. Assuming about 25% driveline loss this means about 176kW at the fly. Being a TJ Sports I started with 163. Maybe I was being optimistic, but I was hoping for a bit more than that.
On the RPW website they claim that their extractors can gain 10-25% more power alone, and I remember a Unichip dealer telling me a couple of years ago that he guarenteed 10% more power. Now I'm not so naive as to believe that I would end up with 35% more power, but I would have thought 10-15% would be reasonable to expect.
The Unichip only picked up 4kW peak, but there was a bit of a spike before the tune and it's fattened out the power band a bit. The torque curved moved up pretty uniformly and if I'm reading the sheet correctly I have about 350Nm which I'm fairly happy with.
The car definitely feels a lot punchier, and it's certainly quicker, I'm just wondering whether I could have/should have gotten more power from the tune.
I guess it all comes down to that driveline loss. If it's 27.5% then I've got 182kW. If it's 30% then I've got 188kW. It's doing my head in.
Has anyone dyno'ed a stock TJ sports Manual. I'd really like to get an accurate idea of what the driveline loss is so I can know whether or not to be sad.
Cheers guys, and sorry for the whingy post.

Sorry to say IMO magnas run best stock. I'd like to say bolt-on mods do something to magnas other than sounding the goods, it's way too hard to get these puppy's moving . Bonafied ways of making her go quick would equate to ~8g+ for either a Sprintex kit or RPW single turbo.


If your not feeling me and still believe your bolt-on exhaust brought you 8kw gains; talk to Boosted Booya and ask him how cheaply he got 305kw at the treads...



(not planned to spoil your day, but do something more constructive with that dough!)

Sorry to say IMO magnas run best stock. I'd like to say bolt-on mods do something to magnas other than sounding the goods, it's way too hard to get these puppy's moving . Bonafied ways of making her go quick would equate to ~8g+ for either a Sprintex kit or RPW single turbo.


If your not feeling me and still believe your bolt-on exhaust brought you 8kw gains; talk to Boosted Booya and ask him how cheaply he got 305kw at the treads...



(not planned to spoil your day, but do something more constructive with that dough!)

i think thats a lil far off!!

u really havnt done a whole heaps of mods dude, i mean uve put a K'n panel in which wont do no more than standard cos ur still using the same air intake set up sucking in hot air, the extractors and exhaust system are really the only mods of value u have done for now,

IMO u really didnt need to get the unichip yet.

also its hard to compare what u final power figure is, cos we dont know what it was b4 all ur mods and every dyno is different, so u may have gained 15kw's atws which i think for the mods u have done is quite good.

basically what im trying to say is the mods u have done r only really gonna give some reall assistance is if u get cams, inlet manifold, bigger TB etc

Your power output is probably reasonable. I think you could get some more again by fabricating some kind of higher diameter cold air intake. This could be as simple as $20 worth of PVC and plumbing adapters from your local hardware store, replacing the over-the-radiator style factory intake. It does make a difference.

If you want more, realistically decide either a target power figure, or a target budget. :D

My manual TJ Sports, when stock, dynoed anywhere between 124kW and 112kW depending on the day, the dyno settings, and the phase of the moon.

Well without a dyno run on the same dyno as a comparative measure, you have no idea how much the car was producing beofre the mods. As they are a a mass produced vehicle the tolerances are pretty wide. Also since you already had the sports the gains from your exhuast arent going to be that huge. I wouldnt be unhappy with the gains you got. As for the extractors giving you 10-25% more power that is highly optimistic. While the unichip didnt give you huge top end gains it would have improved the midrange. To go further you really need to start thinking about a cam and or intake manifold. Then have the unichip retuned. Then you will start to see much larger gains.

Thanks guys, you've pretty much confirmed what I was thinking.
I'm not at all unhappy with how the car feels, I was just expecting a little more power to register. Wasn't hoping for miracles, I realise I haven't done that much. I'm pretty happy with the spread of torque now. Planting it from lower revs feels more urgent now and yes, the midrange is awesome.
I took it for a run through the Royal National Park yesterday and I was very pleased. The suspension upgrade was worth every penny IMO. And with the extra torque it really punches out of corners.
I guess I just wanted bigger numbers for bragging rights. :fruitcake
I suppose just shy of 180kW isn't bad.

Not to be a party pooper, but your joy will last about a week, then you'll just get used to it lol I have 165kW ATW in my car and I barely notice it any more ;)

if u wanted a little more power cheaply i recomend u goy EZY boys bod box ( do a search ) will help car suck in more cold air, and possibly go buy some ralliart cams, they r very cheap could pick them up for between 300-500 i think u would notice a handy diference with those extra mods for not much $$ in relative terms

if u wanted a little more power cheaply i recomend u goy EZY boys bod box ( do a search ) will help car suck in more cold air, and possibly go buy some ralliart cams, they r very cheap could pick them up for between 300-500 i think u would notice a handy diference with those extra mods for not much $$ in relative terms

Thought about the pod box (been reading on here a while, just didn't post much before modding) but didn't think it was really worth it for a couple of kW. How big a job is it changing the cams? About how much for installation. Also problem with that is gotta get a retune after. More $$$. I was detemined to just do what I had planned and stop there. I don't want this to turn into a bottomless money pit, just wanted to liven the car up a bit.

in that case just be happy with what u got, i mean u got a car that will wipe 99% of any other V6/i6's out there and probably %50 of the v8's

in that case just be happy with what u got, i mean u got a car that will wipe 99% of any other V6/i6's out there and probably %50 of the v8's

I know.....cool huh! :cool:

Motors these days arn't that badly engineered, so bolt on mods do squat for the 1500-2000 dollars you end up spending on headers, cai, pods, exhausts, chips etc. It ain't no 308 with chunky crap headers, its a fine tuned engine in which almost all aspects have been engineered to their reliable limit.

Unfortunatly its how it goes. If you were to get 10% increase in power you would be one of very few (or you had a generous dyno, which is more likely).

They do have a rather average header design though. Not the worst...but definitely not the best and can be improved upon

They do have a rather average header design though. Not the worst...but definitely not the best and can be improved upon
No need to be so nice, the headers suck :D

If you were going to do cams you may want to go something bigger than the ralliart as the installation will be as much as the cams if you arent doing it yourself. Then you have to add tuning. On the topic anyone got a guide on the process of cam installation?

u really havnt done a whole heaps of mods dude, i mean uve put a K'n panel in which wont do no more than standard cos ur still using the same air intake set up sucking in hot air, th


i thought the magnas were cold air intake standard.....i just screwed down the plastic sight shield to the bonnet lock support to bounce the air into it thru the grille and then into the air intake

yer im gonna agree with the others, if u want alot more power u gotta spend up big.

but for gaurentee'd instant power just get nitrous :shock:

the cheapest mod for gain in power and torque is a turbo ( the kw/cost ratio)

ummm, what about nitrous?

anywho, like others have said, an oval filter with appropriate ducting or positioning will see a further gain as these will complement your existing mods, and not need a retune.

A high flowed tb is around $100, will greatly improve drivability.

have fun modding it !

and remember, the only real numbers that should matter is the quarter times anyways.

:cool:

Intake design on the magnas does not suit a nitrous system really well due to the intake design, but it has worked before for a couple others. Most people (including myslef) are after reliable, constant power-ups, not On-the-edge power such as nitro. Theres my 2c on that topic anyways

Power output for you car is on target for what i would be expecting. CAI, and intake manifold would be my next option, and get it retuned from there.

Good luck with your future magna modding :D

If you were going to do cams you may want to go something bigger than the ralliart as the installation will be as much as the cams if you arent doing it yourself. Then you have to add tuning. On the topic anyone got a guide on the process of cam installation?

it really depends on what he is after, if u can geta set of ralliart cams and can install them urself i think its as good an upgrade as any..... $300 for cams plus installing urself gets ua lil more power and more torque with standard ECU!!... 300 bux for that is as good a mod as any comparing with some of u who pay 300 for an RPW flowed TB when u could do that at home in 10 minutes

Thanks for all your input guys. I don't think I'm gonna do any more mods, for a while atleast. That's why I got the chip, cos it's supposed to be the last thing. I just wanted to stop spending!!. Problem is, the more I read this forum, the more I want to do..... Bloody enthusiasts and your infectious enthusiasm!
Yeah there is more I'd like to do (cams, inlet manifold, throttle body, etc.) but I only did these few mods to stop myself buying a new car. I just wanted to make the Monstabishi feel like new hotness. I guess I've achieved what I wanted, but once you start you just get that bug. It's driving me nuts. I know there are better things to spend money on, but this is so much fun. I broke up with my fiance a few months ago and now this is my passion. I'm torn between spending on the car and saving for investments. Arrgggh.
Well, you only live once and I'm still young. I'm getting excited about my car now so I guess that's the priority for a bit. Isn't it awesome when you jump in after a new mod and feel that difference? I love it.
Dammit.....me=modding addict
I'm gonna do a few looks mods over the holidays. Planning on painting the console, coloured lights for console, clear side and front indicators. Maybe paint the brake calipers and some engine parts. Hopefully that will keep me happy for a bit, doing some cheaper stuff. Dad's a mechanic so I can use the workshop at his work, hoist and all, to make things easier. Should be a good chrissy.
Well, that's my drunken rant over. Thanks again for you input.
Aaron

got a quarter mile track near you? cos i wanna see some times :D

Well, that's my drunken rant over. Thanks again for you input.
Aaron

Arrest this man! P.W.D.!

it really depends on what he is after, if u can geta set of ralliart cams and can install them urself i think its as good an upgrade as any..... $300 for cams plus installing urself gets ua lil more power and more torque with standard ECU!!... 300 bux for that is as good a mod as any comparing with some of u who pay 300 for an RPW flowed TB when u could do that at home in 10 minutes

Cams arn't what i would consider a bolt on mod, and unlike bolt on mods, a good cam profile makes a noticable difference.

Ive inquired about throwing ralliart cams in a normal magna, wont be half as cheap as most you guys think. Goodluck getting the standard ECU running these cams ... :nuts:

Ive inquired about throwing ralliart cams in a normal magna, wont be half as cheap as most you guys think. Goodluck getting the standard ECU running these cams ... :nuts:That depends on your point of reference lol the piggy-back ECU purchase and tune will be your largest expenditure. You can swap the cams without cracking the heads so actual installation costs are fairly minimal.

As long as people know its not going to cost $300 dorrah for Ralliart cams in your average magna...

Well my power issues are solved. I just put my "Australian Magna Club" sticker on the back window (almost straight). I'm just off to get the Unichip retuned to take full advantage of it. Should be good for about 10kW at the wheels methinks :dancin:

Ive inquired about throwing ralliart cams in a normal magna, wont be half as cheap as most you guys think. Goodluck getting the standard ECU running these cams ... :nuts:



As long as people know its not going to cost $300 dorrah for Ralliart cams in your average magna...ummm no....... these run on standard ecu!! they r ralliart cams thus they run on standard ecu!, i know of numerous cars which have done so, also ralliart cams r 500 retail ... costs me 300 trade and a afternoon to install them so i think its very worthwhile nod for those ppl who dont wanna throw endless money ino their car

ummm no....... these run on standard ecu!!

1) New ralliart cams = $300 trade price
2) Afternoon to install your cams = $0
3) Price to get recon'd heads in your magna = ~$2g's
4) Your face when you turn your car on = Priceless



they r ralliart cams thus they run on standard ecu!

Does the ralliart have the exact same ECU as exec? Jeez you tought me something..



rofl :bowrofl:

i dont know why u have to be a smart ass about at and get so defensive but hmm


u tell eddy wreckewrs that their cams didnt work with a standard ecu ........ considering they raced it at mallala, oh and u tell jason when he was at mitsu they didnt put ralliart cams in a TJ 1 engine ... :)

Just trying to make people understand you cant just slap in cams like a bolt-on mod :shock:

its already been done dude

Bolony

Bolony
Why can't it be done?

It can be done but whos to say you will get the gains if the ECU doesn't know anything has happened to the engine? Im going to hop out of this thread while I can.

I just wanted to relay what I was told over the 10 or so days I was egarly trolling around for a way to get ralliart cams in cheaply; also to make people understand cams are a whole different kettle of fish and shouldn't be played with..

i was always under the assumption magna ECU's r slightly self learning to a certain extent,

when u have driven a double figure number of diferent magnas u can really tell the diference as to howe they drive, they are also able to adjust to a certain extent to mods, if ans when u want to get more out of ur exsisting mods then u get a piggy back and tune it all.

curious who u enquired through ? i worked for a mitsu parts dealer and the boss of the parts department aswell as the mechanics all said ralliart cams would be a great cheap way to go ,.....

one of the mechanics who said so knows his **** as he has spent lots of money on his magna and has stage 2 cams tuned with a unichip

EDIT

also take into account RPW STAGE 1 cams are able to be installed and run with nice gains WHITHOUT a piggy back

It can be done but whos to say you will get the gains if the ECU doesn't know anything has happened to the engine?
True but it will still gain. Fuelling will be adjusted to suit and should probably be handled by the ECU easily if the cams are as mild as we're led to believe.


Im going to hop out of this thread while I can.
Don't worry, no one is saying you're an idiot or anything. It's been done before, that's all others are saying.


also to make people understand cams are a whole different kettle of fish and shouldn't be played with..
And that's sound advice.

i was told that you can put stage 2 cams in a falcon and it will run with a standard ecu, with gains to be had, sure you would get more gains if you tune it as well.

_stonesour_ said,
also ralliart cams r 500 retail ... costs me 300 trade

can u do this price for us in the club.

i was always under the assumption magna ECU's r slightly self learning to a certain extent,

Nope, they definatly dont write back to the map. By self learning, like a true after market ems can, means that there is constant feedback from a o2 sensor for the fueling map and that the ecu changes its fuel map itself. Similarly with a knock sensor and the timing maps. There is no factory ECU which is self learning that I know of.

Magna ECU's simply feed back the o2 sensor readings at idle and below 2700(guess) rpm so when your driving normaly the AFR stays at a clean crisp 14:1. Once you give it some curry, reguardless of mods, it reads 3 sensors and picks a 3d point from a map and fuels and sets ignition timing accordingly.

MAF, CAS(or similar) and RPM are the only sensors being used by a motor past 50%, factory ecu's just dont have enough processing power to use any more imputs. Its why if you have a very cold morning and give it a punch it hesitates some times. This is because the coolant temp sensor is disregarded in open loop, but used in closed loop when the ecu isn't having to deal with alot.

There is no factory ECU which is self learning that I know of.The computers in the LS1s and XR6T have some manner of self-limiting ability. The LS1 chip will learn around mild mods unless instructed otherwise with LS1edit or similar, and the XR6T has a target torque output which it tries not to defeat. I'm not sure exactly how these work, but their behaviour is documented.

oh, and target AFR in closed loop is 14.7:1 not 14:1 :P

The computers in the LS1s and XR6T have some manner of self-limiting ability. The LS1 chip will learn around mild mods unless instructed otherwise with LS1edit or similar, and the XR6T has a target torque output which it tries not to defeat. I'm not sure exactly how these work, but their behaviour is documented.
They feed back at higher throttle applications, still not a learning ECU.


oh, and target AFR in closed loop is 14.7:1 not 14:1

Depends if your after lower emissions or torque at low rpm. while 14.7 is roughly the stoichiometric(for petrol) ratio, where the best amount of air is burnt per fuel, its not the most powerful ratio.

Nope, they definatly dont write back to the map. By self learning, like a true after market ems can, means that there is constant feedback from a o2 sensor for the fueling map and that the ecu changes its fuel map itself. Similarly with a knock sensor and the timing maps. There is no factory ECU which is self learning that I know of.

Magna ECU's simply feed back the o2 sensor readings at idle and below 2700(guess) rpm so when your driving normaly the AFR stays at a clean crisp 14:1. Once you give it some curry, reguardless of mods, it reads 3 sensors and picks a 3d point from a map and fuels and sets ignition timing accordingly.

MAF, CAS(or similar) and RPM are the only sensors being used by a motor past 50%, factory ecu's just dont have enough processing power to use any more imputs. Its why if you have a very cold morning and give it a punch it hesitates some times. This is because the coolant temp sensor is disregarded in open loop, but used in closed loop when the ecu isn't having to deal with alot.

What took you so long!! I was a lone soldier yesterday!

They feed back at higher throttle applications, still not a learning ECU.
From what I've read, the LS1 ecu returns to near factory power outputs after simple induction or exhaust mods gradually over the course of a few hours driving time, rather than reverting immediately. However an ECU reset (remove power) reverses this change temporarily. Are you sure there isn't some volatile memory recording these adjustments?



Depends if your after lower emissions or torque at low rpm. while 14.7 is roughly the stoichiometric(for petrol) ratio, where the best amount of air is burnt per fuel, its not the most powerful ratio.Yes, I know. The point of closed loop though, is to run the engine most efficiently (from the point of view of most complete combustion and emissions production), since power production isn't a concern at low throttle openings/low load situations. I think you'll find that all modern factory ECUs tuned for petrol rather than gas, including the Magna, aim for 14.7:1. You said 14:1 so I was correcting your small mistake :)

The only learning that the 3rd gen Magna does is with the Invscs (sp?) transmission. Open loop operation isn't considered learning.

The only learning that the 3rd gen Magna does is with the Invscs (sp?) transmission. Open loop operation isn't considered learning.
Pretty much, But I doubt the learning ability of the transmission.

Pretty much, But I doubt the learning ability of the transmission.

I know what you mean, but it does adapt to a certain driving style over time. The problem is when you start changing the way your drive frequenttly, this is when it can second guess it's self and stutter a bit. I remember with my old auto TF, if I drove smoothlly (conserving fuel) it would change gears earlier in general, then if you suddentty started to give it high throtle it would change up prematurlly and then downchange alsmost immeadiatlly wasting time.

In general at least with my TF it did adapt to driving style but did it gradually over time.

But I doubt the learning ability of the transmission.
It definately does. Even my mates Neon would do it and it was a manual. I thought it was strange but when it was service once he knew that Chrysler had disconnected the battery (for some strange reason).

It definately does. Even my mates Neon would do it and it was a manual. I thought it was strange but when it was service once he knew that Chrysler had disconnected the battery (for some strange reason).

Huh? :eh:

Huh? :eh:
It's ECU learns stuff and it feels rough after an ECU reset. I don't know why, I thought it was weird but he'd done it a few times.

It's ECU learns stuff and it feels rough after an ECU reset. I don't know why, I thought it was weird but he'd done it a few times.

Ohhh you mean ECU, TC and myself where comenting on the TCU (transmission control unit).
You confused me when you mentioned your mate Neon was manual and it wasn't adapting lol

forget it, all been said.

Ohhh you mean ECU, TC and myself where comenting on the TCU (transmission control unit).
You confused me when you mentioned your mate Neon was manual and it wasn't adapting lol
probably just reads from a sensor which is faulty for a few days, then realises and doesn't.

Ohhh you mean ECU, TC and myself where comenting on the TCU (transmission control unit).
You confused me when you mentioned your mate Neon was manual and it wasn't adapting lol
Yeah, I know what you meant. From what I understood our 3rd gens ECU also looks after the transmission whereas the 2nd gens had two seperate units.

Yeah, I know what you meant. From what I understood our 3rd gens ECU also looks after the transmission whereas the 2nd gens had two seperate units.

I believe you are right. :P

I believe you are right. :P
Which was strange because the 3rd gen looking ones from Japan have seperate ECU / TCU's :confused:

Well this just goes to show what happens when you let a thread loose in the wild. They turn feral and get huge.

Hang on...that's cats. :confused:

How is a modest computer such as a engine control unit supposed to learn by the way? what does it write too if its chips are R-O? certainly i don't have a hdd in my magna...

and the auto isn't learning your driving method, you put your foot down, it drops a cog - easy.

How is a modest computer such as a engine control unit supposed to learn by the way? what does it write too if its chips are R-O? certainly i don't have a hdd in my magna...

and the auto isn't learning your driving method, you put your foot down, it drops a cog - easy.What an astonishingly ilinformed post. Totally apart from any learning ability the 3rd gen Magna ECU uses some kind of semi-volatile memory to record the presence of sensor faults.

The auto does adjust to driving styles. If you drive aggressively it will change down earlier and change up later.

Well this just goes to show what happens when you let a thread loose in the wild. They turn feral and get huge.

Hang on...that's cats. :confused:
And ol'fart at a buffet :P