Hey,

I'm finally getting serious about extractors. I can't justify RPW and have narrowed it down to pacemaker and advance headers.

Advance:
1 5/8 primaries, press bent. Interference design. 2" secondaries.

Pacemaker:
1 1/2 primaries, mandrel bent. Tuned design. Unknown secondaries

Given I've got a 4 speed auto, I think better mid torque would be more beneficial from an interference design. If i had a manual I'd probably opt for a tuned design coz I would be able to keep the revs in the upper band.

So yeah, I'm thinking Advance (plus they're local in adelaide!). Has anybody got any other reasons why I should or shouldn't go with these??

**EDIT** This thread isn't meant to be a 'my extractors are better' **** fight. I just what peoples opinions on what they think would be better for MY car

i was the prototype car for advance headers, bloody good (compared to ralliart stock headers)

more torque throughout the range (although im manual) from what i can feel

mine may be slightly different to yours though, as you have an edited product from mine (being the first built)

talk to mike, mikes a good bloke :D

or adam from fishers (he's the dealer for them :D)

good luck :thumbsup:

i recently heard from the local mitsu parts dealer they have walker/lukey extractors fore magnas now ... for 400 ish or something .... dont know the stats of it though and neither do they ... they r only new and i cant find anything on the net , so a phone call would be in order if u really wanted to know ..


i think if walker has put the time and effort into making a set then i reckon they would be worth a look as they would know they have to compete with pacemaker so these must be up to a certain standard .

Pacies, there the only mass produced extractor I've seen in AUS with the stem into cone secondaries, plus press bent is nasty. There seems to be a bit of negative sentiment in AMC towards pacies but you compare them side by side to most extractors and they **** on them, the fact that magnas dont seem to pick up much is probably due to a decent factory design. I watched my friends 302 XE pick up 15kw on our dyno between pacies and stock.

Matthius

Pacies, there the only mass produced extractor I've seen in AUS with the stem into cone secondaries, plus press bent is nasty. There seems to be a bit of negative sentiment in AMC towards pacies but you compare them side by side to most extractors and they **** on them, the fact that magnas dont seem to pick up much is probably due to a decent factory design. I watched my friends 302 XE pick up 15kw on our dyno between pacies and stock.
in normally aspirated engines, mandrel bending is not required, and can result in a torque loss

proven on my mates dyno :)

']

talk to mike, mikes a good bloke :D



My manager at work knows him and recommended him....and with my managers cred with racing/prepping/modding cars, it's not an opinion I'd throw away :)



Pacies, there the only mass produced extractor I've seen in AUS with the stem into cone secondaries, plus press bent is nasty. There seems to be a bit of negative sentiment in AMC towards pacies but you compare them side by side to most extractors and they **** on them, the fact that magnas dont seem to pick up much is probably due to a decent factory design. I watched my friends 302 XE pick up 15kw on our dyno between pacies and stock.


I've seen reports showing the 'lack' of flow between press and mandrel. It's bugger all difference, and considering the advance primaries are slightly bigger I'm not too concerned about press bent.

Pipe over cone is a +ve for pacies though.



i think if walker has put the time and effort into making a set then i reckon they would be worth a look as they would know they have to compete with pacemaker so these must be up to a certain standard .


I forgot about these. I'll defiantely investigate since I might be able to score employee discount frome someone.

My manager at work knows him and recommended him....and with my managers cred with racing/prepping/modding cars, it's not an opinion I'd throw away :)
mike was the guy who used to design the genie headers, back when THEY were the shiz...

knows his stuff, and based the design on the ralliart high comp engine, so the flow would be better for a verada/ exec auto i would imagine?

To add to the confusion:

Lukey:
1 3/4" primaries, pressbent. Unsure of what design it is, tuned or interference (my guess is tuned). These are a bit more expensive than the advance headers. However unlike the pacemakers and advance headers, the primaries are butt welded to the plate. The piping doesn't go through the plate, so isn't as strong.

Only pluses are the 1 3/4" primaries.

damn was hoping lukey/walker would have made a really top product anbd not just a good product,


i think pacies have it,

']in normally aspirated engines, mandrel bending is not required, and can result in a torque loss

proven on my mates dyno :)How the heck do less restrictive bends lose torque? And if you say back pressure, so help me I'll come down there and smack you :P

How the heck do less restrictive bends lose torque? And if you say back pressure, so help me I'll come down there and smack you :P
back pressure... lol :P


nah, im not sure... i think he said it was mandrel bending makes it TOO unrestrictive (on low - mid power N/A Engines), therefore losing the SYPHON effect we all desire and confuse with backpressure... ;)

wouldnt press bend potentially cause a restriction in the piping and therefor not be as effective for air flow ?

and kind of defeat the purpose of the extractors to some extent

if they do press bends cos a mild NA dosnt build up enough pressure to get the gass's out quikly ...wouldnt it be the soloution to make the piping smaller but mandrell bent?

so many poduvts so many different theories:S

yeah, who knows what these people who study this stuff mean... lol

all i know, is i got 2kW out of my extractors, same as what Ralliart410 got with his extractors off ;)

95% of the people I've spoken too say mandrel bending won't do much at all unless your pushing out massive air and making massive horsepower.

Theres also the another view of press bent, it slightly flattens the pipe out on the outer extremes and squashes in on the inner extreams. Gas moves faster (and more of it) around the outer extreme than the inner extreme (simple physics, take a look at any river and where the flow slows and drops sand to form sandbars). It doesn't make it better, but means the restriction isn't around the point of the highest gas flow.

With mandrel, the outside of the piping gets stretched and has a thinner thickness, making it not as strong. Hearing of all the 3Ls bottoming out with the mandrel bent pacies and not breaking them, it probably means **** all, but its still another point.

It's probably worth buying all types of extractors, measureing, analysing and choosing the best, then offloading the rest onto other AMCers ;)

Anyways, back on topic....

95% of the people I've spoken too say mandrel bending won't do much at all unless your pushing out massive air and making massive horsepower.

Theres also the another view of press bent, it slightly flattens the pipe out on the outer extremes and squashes in on the inner extreams. Gas moves faster (and more of it) around the outer extreme than the inner extreme (simple physics, take a look at any river and where the flow slows and drops sand to form sandbars). It doesn't make it better, but means the restriction isn't around the point of the highest gas flow.


Press bending adds two extra angles inside the pipe work, this will create friction as air doesn't turn without force. Have a look at a press bend when you get a chance, there is a large step on the inside of the bend on the entry and exit - this hump is not desired in any flow situation, do you ever see large water pressure pipes that are press bent, they're always mandrel.

Matthius

RPW Race Extractors ftw!

I know what both mandrel and pressbent looks like. I totally agree, it isn't desired at all, as is any turbulence which causes drag and friction.

We all know mandrel is better, it's just at what point does it become really necessary and when does it hinder performance, especially on mid horsepower cars like magnas. As always it's price vs performance vs producability vs reliability

Anywho...I don't want to turn this into a mandrel vs press bent thread, its been done to death.

RPW Race Extractors ftw!

Are they worth the $200 extra? :)

Damn it there needs to be some definitive testing done!!

Are they worth the $200 extra? :)

Damn it there needs to be some definitive testing done!!

Id say no and ive got the much payed out pacemakers on my car and my old engine made 171.2kw's @ the front wheels with them.... Hmmm so they cant be that bad. :badgrin:

Mandrel bent extractors are always going to be better than a press bent where the bend are so close to the cylinder head itself.

No comparison here - pacemakers over the advance headers hands down. Any non tuned length system especially a press bent system is never going to match a well designed tuned length mandrel bent system.

The smaller diamater pacies aren't bad to work with and are essentially the same diameter in a way to the non mandrel bent larger advance units. So it really comes down to tuned length V non tuned length - and on the magnas they love there tuned length setups for sure.

Of course - you can always buy the RPW Race headers - :badgrin:

The verdict is in...

I'm getting Pacemakers because:

1. Long primaries
2. Good quality welding and bending
3. Excellent value for money.

The main drivers for the decision were primary length, diameter (for performance), quality and price (for keeping me happy). The Pacemakers have 1 1/2" diameter primaries, not fantastic but I'll live with it. And for getting the whole lot installed for $1000, I don't think I'll be getting a better price.

I really feel sorry for people who go into a shop and ask for 'extractors'. If theres anything I've found, its that not all extractors are created equal. Walk into a shop and ask for 'extractors' and you could come away with something thats totally inferior to something that costs less.

I researched pretty much all the extractors for 3rd gen magnas and have primary and secondary specs, and pics for pretty much all of them. I'll post in the 3rd gen FAQ or a thread here when I get around to it.

And for getting the whole lot installed for $1000, I don't think I'll be getting a better price.
I hope you don't pay that much. They're around the 300 - 400 mark off the shelf and 100 - 200 for fitment.

Sorry...$1000 for extractors + high flow cat + 2.5" press bent fitted.

Mind you thats not far off the price that some people want to charge :doubt:

Mind you thats not for off the price that some people want to charge :doubt:
Haha... yeah, that's right.

That's a more reasonable price. I think you'll be happy all up. Feel free on dynoing before and after too :D

Hmm. Sorry to hijack, but I was quoted $1500 for Pacemaker extractors, 3" high flow cat, 2.5" press bent straight through system split into dualies with all tips and brackets etc included. Does that sound about right?

I was going to say it sounds pricey, then I noticed it's a dual system, so yeah that's probably in the right ball-park.