Ok my timing chain is due to be replaced and I'm getting the full timing chain replacment kit from Burson and it will cost me $255 to get now I plan to do it myself depending if I feel I can do it so I just want to ask something from you guys.

Do you 100% need to take the cyclinder head off to replace the timing chain's or can you leave it on.

Also would you recomend silocon as I know of the right type to use or would you recomend gasket goo for the timing chain cover.

Look forward to the reply's.

Cheers
Alex.
:bowrofl:

i think you would have to take the head off, i havent done it in my car but i have done it to 6-7 different engines while they were out of a car for my course i did. I dont really remember how exactly, but you dont wanna stuff up were your timing is you might hit the piston with a valve and **** up everything. (this is just from memory, i think all my course kind of merged together so now i cant really remember what does what, but i have an idea.) You wanna make sure you set the timing off of number 1 cylinder firing, i think. It wasnt that hard, but i would c what other ppl say, ppl who are more 100% sure

Nope you dont need to take your head off, if your chain has a link, ive done it on mine but i had the conveinience of the engine out, head was still on, just wach out when your doing it because of the chain tension.

cylinder head doesn't need to come off...

the big timing chain also doesn't have a link to take the chain off... the timing cover needs to come off... drain your coolant or it'll pour all over the place... the sump needs to come off or at least be lowered/levered so the timing cover can be taken off and put back on without damaging the head gasket.

your hardest task is working with the timing chain being so close to the car chassis... not really a lot of room.

You dont need a link to take it off, just make sure you line the engine up at TDC before you pull the chain out. All you need to do is remove the top cog on the camshaft and it will fall out more or less.

Doing it in the car is not a fun job though, there is bugger all room to do it. You will probably want to undo the side engine mounts and support the eengine with a jack so you can move it as you need to.

Just a note: Check the guides and the chain tensioner in the oil pump to make sure the plunger doesn't have too much play and that the ratchet (TR-TS models) still works! This will save you having to pull the thing apart again in 6mths.

Cummins.

Get a mechanic to do it :cool: :D

It is not the timing chain that rattles it is the balance chain. I am surprised that no one here has mentioned this.

You will not have to remove the head, remove the sump and front cover, be careful not to damage the head gasket that seals to the front cover section.

Remove the guides, all of them, remove the chains.

The dot on the top sprocket should be towards the rear of the vehicle, there from memory is 20 links to between the mark on the crank to the mark on the cam sprocket.

There will be 3 bright links on the balance chain as well, if your new kit does not have the bright links count them before you remove the chain, ensure the engine is at no1 TDC.

If you have paid the price you state then you have paid waaaayyyy too much for a kit.

While you are at it, remove the engine, it is not too hard, remove the balance shafts and use the eliminator kit to stop this happening again.

If you do not understand what I have said above take it to mechanic :D

When you replace the timing chain you get the CB chain too.
Only a real dope would replace only one LOL :)

Everyone seems to confuse CB chain noise with timing noise.

Good advice there though.

When you replace the timing chain you get the CB chain too.
Only a real dope would replace only one LOL :)

Everyone seems to confuse CB chain noise with timing noise.

Good advice there though.

Umm you are saying the cb chain to be the balance shaft chain?

Well this just in, it is the most common reason for rattle noise in Astron motors, believe me after having done as many of these as I have I should know.

Yes you get the whole kit by why not spend a few extra bucks and get the eliminator kit and solve the problem once and for all?

Half the kit becomes redundant but you will not have this noise for sometime and next time if you do it will really be the timing chain.

A small rattle at start up can be the timing chain, a rattle at idle is the balance shaft chain

BCX7 and cartman02au (and others) are shpot on as usual so I aint saying nothing except to agree with them :D :stoopid: :stoopid:

Umm you are saying the cb chain to be the balance shaft chain?

CB Chain - Counter Balance shaft chain.



A small rattle at start up can be the timing chain, a rattle at idle is the balance shaft chain
With the TR/TS normally not. The self-adjuster mechanism on the CB chain in them is a joke. I have had a stretched chain in a TR/S and it has rattled only on startup. It's because Mitsubishi in their wisdom did not put a ratchet mechanism on the tensioner. As soon as you turn the key off the tensioner retracts, unlike the timing chain one which is held out.

As written on my site:


The self-adjuster runs off of oil pressure which pushes out the tensioner that holds the chain tight. Unlike the main timing chain tensioner, the balance chain tensioner does not include a "ratchet" mechanism to hold the tensioner in place when oil pressure is lost (e.g. when the engine is switched off), therefore the tensioner doesnt tension the chain when there is low oil pressure (like at startup) and can cause the chain to rattle.

http://magna.trynsave.net/index.php?title=Self_adjusting_bs_chain

can the balance shaft removal kit be fitted while the engine is still in the car ie: unbolt 3 engine mounts and tilt up passenger side for access i done mine 6 months ago (both chains tensioner and guides) and it sounds like i need to manual adjust the balance chain again its a pain

how does the eliminator kit work??

$255 is pretty bloody pricey for a chain kit, mine cost $89 off ebay via a melbourne car shop. :D

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Ringwood-Auto-Parts_Mitsubishi_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQftidZ2QQtZkm

They also do the elimination kit for $30 :)

how does the eliminator kit work??
You get a shorter stub shaft to go on the rear of the oil pump, a block for the right hand side shaft (where it used to go) and a shorter chain.

can the balance shaft removal kit be fitted while the engine is still in the car ie: unbolt 3 engine mounts and tilt up passenger side for access i done mine 6 months ago (both chains tensioner and guides) and it sounds like i need to manual adjust the balance chain again its a pain
It would be pretty hard as you need to pull the shafts out (well you could leave the RH one in if you were shonky)

$255 is pretty bloody pricey for a chain kit, mine cost $89 off ebay via a melbourne car shop. :D

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Ringwood-Auto-Parts_Mitsubishi_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQftidZ2QQtZkm

They also do the elimination kit for $30 :)
Smart man Ol' Fart - Rob at Ringwood is the man!

Can get them at Bursons not much more that that if you know the right people, same with Sprint in Adelaide.

You can get the shafts out with engine in and all mounts except the rh one off but is a prick of a job and would not recommend it.

You can leave the rear shaft in I guess, personally I would not do this.

I think some have missed my point, most of the time, 95%, the balance shaft or counter shaft what ever you wish to call it is the one that causes the rattle.

The eliminator kit for the TR/S does not block the hydrolic tensioner though, last one I did I used a bit of steel rod that I fitted into the hole for the tensioner hole and secured it with a grub screw to block the oil passage.

This has all been very interesting thank you all for your replies on this subject.

The kit from bursons that I was going to get was a complete kit chain, guides and gears etc that's why it was $255.

Eliminator Kit this is the first I have heard of such a kit and not mentioned to me by mechanincs.

Getting a mechanic to do it well I can be looking at about $500 to $900 for them to do it some wanted to take the head of some didn't so you can see why I'm looking to maybe do it myself.

If anything when that cover comes off I want to replace anything that will need to be done like an overhual so it will last a very long time again.

Also is the water port still there where the sigma water pump use to be. ?

Cheers
Alex.

Also is the water port still there where the sigma water pump use to be. ?


yes it is.

also, if you dont ever wanna have a rattly chain again, use the eliminator kit... i'm taking my motor out of my car solely just to remove the balance shafts

also gives me a reason to paint my engine bay black to match the rest of the car

This eliminator kit I can not find one bit of info on this kit anywhere as in what is involved in what way does it fix the problem etc.

Does it make your motor run rougher ?

Damm that bloody water port is still there on the TR/TS engines crap makes no sense either.

I'm looking at a timing chain kit on ebay but the guy is not giving me straight answers to "is this a complete kit including both chains and both sets of guides" how hard is it to answer a question that simple with a Yes or No. He also sells the eliminator kit as well for $29.00 and the timing kit for $99.00 .

This eliminator kit I can not find one bit of info on this kit anywhere as in what is involved in what way does it fix the problem etc.
the eliminator kit comes with the few bits to remove the two balance shafts these motors have. it comes with a new little stub for the oil pump to remove the shaft behind it, a replacement chain that only goes around the crank and oil pump, and a sleve to plug up the oil gallery for the top balance shaft...

some will say it give you more "power" or at least reposiveness cos there is less weigh of moving bits in the motor...

the other reason is there is no need to have chain guides, etc and bascially eliminates the chain that causes the rattles... the actual timing chain has a guide that automatically tensions the chain... whereas this chain that is being eliminated relys on the fact that evey so often when the chain becomes noisy, you have to adjust the guide from the little access hole in the timing cover - which most people dont do.

as for making the engine more rough, that is debateable... i've done it to a sigma or two in my time, and it wasn't too bad, and i'd guess in a magna it would not be that bad either. maybe i can get someone with a magna and deleted shafts to comment on this... i'm doing it because i can, but it wont be for a little while though... maybe later on in the year.

check out this: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27965

Thanks for that BCX7.

I just brought the chain and guides kit from the guy on ebay for $99 all I need now is to see if I can find a guy who is not going to rip me off in replacing this for me in the Geelong area.

Not sure on the TR engine how you get around the tensioner for the balance chain though, have not done an eliminator kit on a tr/s motor.

I came across this while trying to find proper information on the elimintor kit funny thing I can't find one bit of info on those kits.

But this more or less tells people you would also need to replace the oil pump at the same time as this is what causes the chain to rattle and if you don't then you will be doing that chain again in about 3000 to 16,000 km’s.



Mitsubishi 2.6 TR / TS
Timing Component & Oil Pump Assy

The Mitsubishi Magna 2.6 TR & TS models were fitted with a revised design of the timing and balance shaft chain assembly, in conjunction with an updated oil pump. This revision included a hydraulic tensioner unit for the balance shaft drive chain, and a ratchet mechanism incorporated to the oil pump/tensioner plunger. This ratchet mechanism was designed to maintain tension on the timing chain at initial start up, until oil pressure was sufficient to support the plunger under normal operating conditions.

Frequently these engines are being submitted for timing assembly replacement, due to severe timing noise being present. After all the timing components have been replaced, it is not uncommon for the vehicle to be back in the workshop again after only a short time in operation (normally between 3000 to 16,000 km’s) exhibiting the same timing assembly noise symptoms.

Investigations have revealed the root cause of this condition lies primarily with the amount of wear of the hole in the oil pump, which houses the timing chain tensioner plunger. The pump is constructed with alloy, whilst the tensioner plunger shaft is manufactured from steel.

The wear in the oil pump housing appears to be caused by a number of contributing factors. When the engine is new, the tensioner plunger sits almost completely into the oil pump housing, providing a large surface supporting area. As the timing component progressively wear under normal operating conditions, the tensioner plunger extends to remove timing chain slack, as it is designed to perform. This leads to less support (shorter surface contact area) between the oil pump hole and the tensioner plunger.

Now during cold start up (remembering the ratchet unit is holding the plunger at extension) when oil pressure support is minimal, the chain vibration places high lateral load on the tensioner plunger, and due to its’ extended state, wear of the alloy oil pump hole commences. Following repeated instances of this occurrence, the oil pump hole wears to a point where the tensioner plunger has too much lateral movement for the incorporated ratchet assembly to maintain its’ grip (the ratchet teeth are fairly fine). The tensioner plunger and ratchet mating teeth may then ride across the top of each other’s surface, wearing the mating teeth. The combination of the worn ratchet mating teeth and the worn oil pump tensioner housing, render the tensioning system ineffective.

As a result, the timing chain (operating in a loose state), whips off the camshaft sprocket and bounces along the straight chain guide. The chain in due course wears through this chain guide, resulting in the severe timing noise. In addition, extensive wear may be noted on the tensioner pad, and curved chain guide.

At this time when new timing components are fitted, it is imperative to check and replace the oil pump. **

If the oil pump is not replaced, and new timing components are fitted, it is common (as mention earlier) that the engine will operate correctly for a limited period of time. This is due to the fact that all the timing components are new again, and the tensioner plunger is set almost fully back into the oil pump housing, at a zone of the hole which does not have any significant wear. As the timing components begin to settle under operating conditions and the tensioner extends, it reaches the worn section of the oil pump hole, and the same timing component failure is experienced.

Subsequent replacement of the timing components (without replacing the oil pump) will result in failure at shorter intervals, as the wear in the oil pump housing becomes more extensive.

The options to repair the oil pump/timing assembly are limited, as the problem with the oil pump must be addressed. As the OEM oil pump for this application is quite expensive, many mechanics and engine reconditioners, are opting to retrofit the engine to the earlier model (TM,TN,TP) oil pump/timing assembly setup. This is achieved by purchasing timing kit number AMBTK3, along with a new TM-TP oil pump, part number AM4G54* (the price of the aftermarket AM4G54 oil pump is significantly lower than the OEM TR,TS series oil pump).

* Correct mounting bolts will need to be utilised.

** Some repairers have undertaken to fit a steel sleeve to the worn OEM oil pump tensioner housing. This is reported to be successful, however suitable tubing and specialised tooling may be required.


This info comes from the following link :- ( http://www.australdistributing.com.au/pages/techtips/mitsubishi.html )

It would also seem that Mitsubishi tried to rectify the problem but failed to find out the real cause maybe.

I had 2 mechanics also tell me that the oil pump would have to be replaced at the same time and 1 mechanic mention buying the old pump from a TM to TP as there cheaper to buy as the TR/TS are over priced.

Also I think this should be made a sticky post as there is now alot of information on the subject.

I have seent this article before but I disagree in a lot of ways.

I have replaced countless kits and never had any issues 3000 - 16000 k's later.

It is a fact the oil pump should be checked, and replacing with a TM-P one is not an answer as they are less volume output and also have a tensionor for the balance chaing to prevent this problem happening.

and replacing with a TM-P one is not an answer

I would agree there in a way as in I would not want to get a part from an older model I would much prefer for the same model as you have pointed out there's a difference in oil volume being pumped.

I will have too see how much one cost's before I consider replacing it.

ok just got quoted $540.00 from Mitsubishi. :shock: stuff that option :rant: can only get geniune oil pumps damm.

Also while I was on the phone with that I asked how much they charged to replace the timing chains and guides and was quoted $1250.00 :shock: and they funny thing was he mentioned the oil pump would be replaced as well and I asked why and was told that if I want the chain and guides to last another 200000 ks then you would want it or the chain might need replacing alot earlier then expected depending on the condition of the oil pump.

For me I'll just get the oil pump checked out to see if it's still ok if not get secound hand from a car with low k's.

Yes the timing chain kit arrived today very happy with it.

Something else I found out today and that is that I got told that it would be safer to replace the timing cover with a new one due to the old water pump port coroding the timing cover as it can make out that you might have a blown headgasket and cost money later on as it common for these to leak with new gaskets and it's cheaper to get new then reco.

So the elimination kit requires a new oil pump?

So the elimination kit requires a new oil pump?

Nope it needs to be modified in some way but should come with the kit as mentioned before in this thread.


comes with a new little stub for the oil pump to remove the shaft behind it, a replacement chain that only goes around the crank and oil pump, and a sleve to plug up the oil gallery for the top balance shaft...

Unless when your oil pump is checked and is showing signs of not pumping to good due to wear then you might need a new pump and this is not cheap and I have found out that people are getting oil pumps from the TM/TP model magna's as there cheaper to buy then the TR/TS model were I was quoted from Mitsubishi Geelong $540.00

Cheers
Alex

PS. Will this ever be a sticky thread ? :bowdown:

:shock:

What engine model does the TS 2.6L have? will the eliminator kit on ebay work for this model?

What engine model does the TS 2.6L have? will the eliminator kit on ebay work for this model?

a TS 2.6l is the same motor used in many cars, including first gen magnas... TM, TN, TP, TR and TS all have this same motor, was even used in sigmas... there are differences between the TM, TN, TP motor and the TR, TS motor... things include different oil pump, roller rockers, different shaped combustion chambers (ts especially). this motor is refered to as the 4G54 or 4G54b Astron motor

hope this helps

You mean from this guy on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/MITSUBISHI-MAGNA-BALANCE-SHAFT-ELIMINATION-KIT_W0QQitemZ4585381115QQcategoryZ10400QQtcZphotoQ QcmdZViewItem

I have brought the timing kit from him for my TR.

The kit will work on all MITSUBISHI ASTRON ENGINES as he has stated for 4cyc only.

You can see the box for the chain and this is much shorter as it will only go around the oil pump cog and the crank cog.

things include different oil pump

Yes the difference between the TR/TS and the TM/TP is that the TR/TS pump a larger volume of oil where the TM/TP pumps a lower volume of oil but still works 100% .

if u were looking for the eliminator kit rob at ringwood auto parts sells them on his ebay store, he also sells a suspenion kit for the front swing arms and a steering kit as well i think and a few other little things for the older magnas.

if u were looking for the eliminator kit rob at ringwood auto parts sells them on his ebay store, he also sells a suspenion kit for the front swing arms and a steering kit as well i think and a few other little things for the older magnas.


I posted a direct link to him already I brought the timing kit from him and a few other parts as well he's very cheap and still offer's the same quailty the bigger guys offer. Just don't ask him for advise.

Yes I got my car back this evening and all is good so far no rattle at start-up and no rattle when engine is warmed up nice and quite and even alot less vibration with the new rear engine mount.

Was told to expect the rattle back at start-up for a few secs and then go quite as this is very common after around 3 to 6 months.

Now it turned out the guy that I brought the car off either did this himself or to someone else before selling the car put in secound hand timing chain and guides. Now when putting everthing back they stuffed the oil pump by installing the gears the wrong way causing the chain to run on an angle and stuffing the guides up very quike and they also cracked the timing cover and did something to the balancer pully as it wouldn't come off and ended up being damaged try to get it off. :rant:

The mechanic was right about the timing cover corrsion as it was leaking as it couldn't make a proper seal anymore and the water was leaking out the bolt hole and I couldn't see it at the time as it was very little. Plus it was cracked half way up the cover.

I'm real happy with the work he's done he's used the right stuff for the gaskets and has gone over everything and re-lubed parts before putting everything back together and has torqued all the bolts on the timing cover and oil pan and is a neat and tidy job and all was done while the engine was still in the car and the cyclinder head also still on the engine.

Total cost of all this came to $650 in total.

If there's anyone in Geelong on this forum email me if you want to know who did this.

I'm now very happy with my Magna :D

I've got the same rattle problem with my TP Magna.

I was wondering whether someone could post clearly how to install the eliminator kit. I don't wish to remove the engine or move it as I don't have the equipment for this. Is it possible to install the kit without moving the engine? I take it the rear balance shaft is hard to take out with the engine in place? Can the shaft be left in but not connected? Or can the shaft be cut when its coming out to avoid moving the engine? How long does it take to fit the kit?

The rattle drives me nuts, thats the main reason why I want to do it. A performance increase would be a nice bonus, even if its slight, but if there's none then that does not matter if the rattle is gone!

I guess if someone could post the above information in a detailed way and with the questions answered, and any other info it would be greatly appreciated. Not to mention the fact that it would help out a lot of other people too who wish to do this. Its been spoken a lot in other threads but clear detailed instructions and workarounds (like not removing or moving the engine) are not posted.

Thanks!

I was pondering this when Mine was being done but it came down to vibration if the eliminator kit was installed and thought the magna engine vibrates at idle already and would make this worse with the kit and would only suit someone biulding the engine for performance only.

the engine will have to come out to do the eliminator kit as the shaft has to come right out and I think there are a few other things that need doing as well.

the mechanic in Geelong that I went to had done 3 other magna's and all 3 owners came back after a few weeks to a month wanting the timinng chanins back on due to the increased engine vibration and i even contacted one of them and had a look at there car and I didn't like what I felt .


In the long run it's just better to get the timing kit and new timing cover if your is still the original you can get the timing kit off ebay alot cheaper then an auto shop I did saved a heap of money.

You can't disconect one of the balance shafts coz the oil pump drives one of the shafts. Best bet is to drop the motor into the ocean (drain the oil first) and put in a low low low km's quad cam 3ltr, now u fink im jokin but after u spent yer money on chains you will have to do it again soon coz i don't recon the kits are not as good as they used to be. I have tensioned the balance shaft chain and had no luck eliminating the noise. I believe both will emit the same type of noise when worn out. So you will have no option but to change them again in the future. Why they used chains instead of belts is beyond comprehension.
The cordia 4g62bt uses balance shafts also, infact their near identical systems, i wouldn't be suprised if the blocks were the same.
Now about that quad cam 3ltr....

ooops, i forgot to mention the cordia uses belts... and i don't want to sound like a geek but yer local library might have the workshop manual yer after, if not they can get it in fer u.







When i win lotto im going to get a new bum, coz mines got a hole in it...

Its mainly a cost thing, because if I can install the kit without taking the engine out its going to be like $40 or something... lol. Apparently the kit comes with a new chain so it can skip the balance shaft and run the oil pump. Dropping in a quad cam 3.0L would probably cost close to what the car is worth. Getting another timing chain kit is an option but rather a pointless exercise, as you're not resolving the problem just temporarily masking the eftect. I'd rather spend $40 on solving the problem than a couple of hundred each time the bloody thing starts rattling again. Slight vibrations don't worry be, its the sound of the clunky chain. I've lived in country areas most of my life and corrugated roads give a lot more vibration than the engine ever could, and they don't worry me either :)

Well you have no choice but to take the engine out.

If you buy the complete timing chain kit and make sure every little part is in there then you shouldn't go wrong. Also when you take things apart and make sure to check things like for example the oil pump as it seems this happens alot and is the cause of chain rattle after a few months to a year as the rod for the giud on the oil pump can have wear and gets stuck and doesn't come out enough to get rid o fthe slack in the chain. The gears will also need checking for wear as well.

Your timing chain shouldn't rattle again for another 150000 to 200000 again if done right. This is what Mitsubishi calls a "Major Service" it's a normal service plus the replace your timing chain and guides and replace the gears and replace the oil pump plus some other stuff and is why they charge nearly $2000 for it.:shock:

Yes, basically it is a partial engine rebuild. Why not go the whole hog and replace rings, check piston clearances (rebore and new pistons if worn too much) and check crank bearing clearances (regrind and new shells). Grind the valves and have the head/block refaced by a machine shop. Engine ends up as new, total cost $1500 (if you do it yourself) but cheaper if crank/bores don't need redoing. Worth it!