The used (30,000K) ralliart heads I purchased on ebay finally arrived today - interestingly enough, they have only very minimal work done to them over standard. No apparent porting work, all that has been done is some valve shrouding has been removed (mechanically) around the intake valves. This is roughly 3mm, cut with a circular cutter (sharp edges and everything).

Interestingly, the exhaust valves are quite a bit larger than the intake valves - could be some scope for improvement there - the exhaust valves juuust fit in the head.

Overall, the head design is pretty good, there appears that if you were to gasket port match you would be removing quite a bit of material. Removing the sharp edges around the intake valves would be a good start to reducing any potential detonation.

Unfortunatly, it looks like the head may have dropped a valve at one stage, although the seller claims the head was cleaned (unlikely, it was pretty dirty).

Also, been reading up on the hydraulic lash adjusters - complicated little bits of kit, they are filled with fresh diesel, rather than the engine oil - so all of these things about people with noisy lifters being changed with oil... Not true, at least on this engine.

I will have some photos up tomorrow for anyone who is interested, and I will also CC the combustion chambers to work out the static compression ratio of these heads when fitted to a standard block. Due to the material removed from around the valves, it would be less than 9.0:1. With the factory limit of 0.2mm deck height reduction (combined block and head), the most you get is 8 thou deck on the head - probably increasing the compression ratio up to 9.4-9.5:1.

I would love to hear from anyone who has done head swaps on these engines, and what pitfalls they have encountered - hyraulic lash adjuster noise? The need to change valve stem seals?

Anyone else who is considering doing the swap - with the price of labour and Mitsubishi's ridiculous price for gaskets - eep!

Cheers
Heath Young

That's an interesting read. If you're bored feel free to take some pics of the ralliart head and your stocker so I can put them up on the wiki. The cc info will be interesting also.

That's an interesting read. If you're bored feel free to take some pics of the ralliart head and your stocker so I can put them up on the wiki. The cc info will be interesting also.

pics pics pics :D

heath

can you check the actual p/n of the ralliart springs compared to "standard" magna vavle springs - according to the manual - the installed height and pressures of the same . .. . . ..

next can you measure the valve seats - ID and OD of the 45 deg seat, and ID at the port (underneath the seat insert). . . ..

also the OD of the seat insert

it may be worth while spending some time on the throats . .. .

can you take some pics of the short side raddius and the vavle itself .. . . .

are the guides cast iron?

Some more information and pictures...

I rang mitsu on a price to fit these heads, and was suprised that it was a sub-$1000 labour job - $800 was the 'worst case' price. They required me to have the heads skimmed (~$100 pair), and I am getting them stripped, decoked, inspected, valves relapped, reassembled and tested ($150-$200).

The big ticket items were (very suprisingly) the VRS kit (Valve Regrind Set) which consists of (AFAIK)

2 Head Gaskets
2 Intake Gasket
2 Exhaust Gaskets
1 Plenum Gasket
1 TB Gasket
12 Intake Valve Stem Seals
12 Exhaust Valve Stem Seals
6 Oil seals (around spark plugs)
1 Distributor 'O' ring
2 Rocker cover gaskets
1 water pump seal
1 thermostat seal

All for a bargain price of $692.65 (WTF?!!!)

...And a timing belt ($163.35)

If anyone can do a better price for a genuine Mitsubishi VRS kit + Timing belt - PM me! Please!


Pictures: (Apologise for the quality of these - they are resized from an 8mp camera)

They pretty much speak for themselves.

Exhaust Port - you can see that the exhaust port is smaller than the exhaust manifold (this is good, you never port-match the two, the 'step' makes for better exhaust scavenging (forms a partial vacuum due to the venturi effect, and also acts like a one-way valve).

Intake Port - there is some scope for enlarging the intake ports (need to get an accurate idea of if the intake manifold ports are smaller or larger than this - but gasket matching here would help a little.

Exhaust Valves - Quite large! And very little problems with valve shrouding due to their size, it is obvious why if the timing belt slips the exhaust valves hit the pistons!

Intake Valves - note the work around the valve (around its circumference) - this is the extent of the headwork performed on a Ralliart head. Not suprising, considering this is a production head, but I would have expected more.
You could possibly fit larger valves here, but the attendant drop in charge velocity would make it a slug at low RPM. (But could easily increase top RPM HP considerably).

The short side radius on both intake and exhaust is quite large, it could be dropped lower to increase top end power, but at the expense of low end torque. The exhaust port is pretty daggy, and could really use a polish (to prevent carbon buildup).

The best thing that could be done to these heads would be a 3 angle valve job - increase the small opening airflow even furthur, but you risk sinking the valves furthur into the head (as they have a 'normal' 45 degree grind). Removal of some of the sharp edges off the chamber would also be a low-cost and relatively beneficial mod. (But would reduce the compression ratio slightly)

Speaking of compression ratio - angle milling the head would allow you to run considerably more compression on the engine without running into issues with exhaust valves hitting pistons - you would howver have all of the attendent issues with changing the angles of bolt holes, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds etc.

Cheers
Heath Young

Heath...

how much did you pay for these ?


also, do you remember who they came from ? a name, or which state they came from ?

can ya drop me a pm ?

cheers
Nath

The big ticket items were (very suprisingly) the VRS kit (Valve Regrind Set) which consists of (AFAIK)

2 Head Gaskets
2 Intake Gasket
2 Exhaust Gaskets
1 Plenum Gasket
1 TB Gasket
12 Intake Valve Stem Seals
12 Exhaust Valve Stem Seals
6 Oil seals (around spark plugs)
1 Distributor 'O' ring
2 Rocker cover gaskets
1 water pump seal
1 thermostat seal

All for a bargain price of $692.65 (WTF?!!!)Around $600 of that is just the head gaskets. They are fantastically expensive pieces of kit.

Head Gaskets for that price ??

PM me mate, i can do those gaskets for 1/4 of that price!

Head Gaskets for that price ??

PM me mate, i can do those gaskets for 1/4 of that price!oops, maybe I was doubling.. list price is $300 a gasket, or $300 a pair?

I really should know.. I've had my heads off 3 times now lol

well, i'd get em for $160 a pair !

Yeah where are you getting all this done in sydney?? Sign me up for a re-build!

i was going to buy thes heads lucky i didin't buy them, farr to much stuffing arround.

$300 a pair for the Original Equipment head gaskets.

Person who sold these was a Jason someone, in QLD - purchased off ebay for $1250. Probably paid too much but meh. They were apparently from a Ralliart with 30,000Klms that had been crashed, and the engine mount had been broken off the block, hence why the engine was torn down.

Hunter - these heads are being done in Newcastle, by a mob named HB Sales, ((02)4927 6266) in Islington, as recommended by the local Mitsubishi dealer (Hunter City Glendale).

I am still finding out if the ECU can be reflashed to the Ralliart program, no real reasons why not (apparently it removes the immobiliser function - no idea as to why though).

Cheers
Heath Young

$300 a pair for the Original Equipment head gaskets.

Person who sold these was a Jason someone, in QLD - purchased off ebay for $1250. Probably paid too much but meh. They were apparently from a Ralliart with 30,000Klms that had been crashed, and the engine mount had been broken off the block, hence why the engine was torn down.

Hunter - these heads are being done in Newcastle, by a mob named HB Sales, ((02)4927 6266) in Islington, as recommended by the local Mitsubishi dealer (Hunter City Glendale).

I am still finding out if the ECU can be reflashed to the Ralliart program, no real reasons why not (apparently it removes the immobiliser function - no idea as to why though).

Cheers
Heath Young

why dont u just run YOUR standard ecu with a piggyback of some sort?

I am still finding out if the ECU can be reflashed to the Ralliart program, no real reasons why not (apparently it removes the immobiliser function - no idea as to why though).
Have you pulled apart you're ECU? Does the chip have anything written on it? Wonder if Mitsubishi's can be played with via the ODBII connector?

Only TH's can be reflashed and there r very very few ppl around that can do it ... and they would all be workers or ex workers of mitsu

Pity you cannot reflash then... Oh well.

Piggyback - I have reservations about these, mainly because I have heard a few horror stories, and the fact that I have to go to a 4WD dyno (on average, these cost more in dyno time than a 2WD), the state of tune depends on the experience (or otherwise) of the tuner.

Fitting a Ralliart ECU on the other hand, you have maps that are optimal for the car... And no insurance/legaity problems.

Cheers
Heath Young

Wonder if Mitsubishi's can be played with via the ODBII connector?
Don't think the are compliant, are they?

Fitting a Ralliart ECU on the other hand, you have maps that are optimal for the car... And no insurance/legaity problems.


i may have read the thread wrong but aint u getting aditional head work done ontop of whathas been done to the ralliart heads from factory ?

ull get better results out of a decent retune for ur car than just a generalised ralliart map, cos dont forget every car is slightly different and the ralliart map would be tuned to not chew fuel aswell to a certain extent.

also ur car aint no rallyart would still be missing the cams and the extractors from the ralliart ... so in a sense ( being picky) it would still be untuned... just get a greddy or unichip off ebay or the for sale section on any forum and take it to a DECENT tuner

the ralliart map would be tuned to not chew fuel aswell to a certain extent.
Every car is tuned to chew fuel. They do this to assist in keeping engine temps down.


also ur car aint no rallyart would still be missing the cams and the extractors from the ralliart ... so in a sense ( being picky) it would still be untuned... just get a greddy or unichip off ebay or the for sale section on any forum and take it to a DECENT tuner
Weren't the Ralliart cams left in the Rallirt heads?

If anything, more air in will be better for the amount of fuel already being injected. More air for an already rich mix = more bang.

I agree though, I'd still go a Unichip / Haltech tune, (or a e-Manage if you have a local tuner that does them).

(or a e-Manage if you have a local tuner that does them).
i got question sorry to hijak

in adelaide basically every tuner does the greddy but we only have 2 ( from memory) who does uni chip tunes ... are we just complete opposite to the rest of australia ( no smart ass comment s from the vic:P boooo)

in adelaide basically every tuner does the greddy
Gee, unlucky for some :bowrofl:

Rude. Oh well, good one.

i may have read the thread wrong but aint u getting aditional head work done ontop of whathas been done to the ralliart heads from factory ?

ull get better results out of a decent retune for ur car than just a generalised ralliart map, cos dont forget every car is slightly different and the ralliart map would be tuned to not chew fuel aswell to a certain extent.

also ur car aint no rallyart would still be missing the cams and the extractors from the ralliart ... so in a sense ( being picky) it would still be untuned... just get a greddy or unichip off ebay or the for sale section on any forum and take it to a DECENT tuner

The only headwork I was looking at getting is to get the head decked 0.15mm to increase compression ratio (from 9.0 to 9.4 or so, as per Ralliart specs). Maybe a bit of mild port work, but depends on what is going to be sacrificed - reducing the port velocities at low RPM costs torque down low - with an extra 130kg (+my fat ass) to carry around, low end torque is reasonably important.

Cams are already in the head (ie it is a complete unmodified Ralliart head - complete with Ralliart Cams, nitrided valve springs etc), and I do have a brand new set of Ralliart extractors (see my sig).

The only non-ralliart parts are the high-compression pistons with anodised tops. BUT my reasoning is that if you can run 220Kw out of the engine with standard pistons (ie. supercharger) 180kw shouldn't be too much of a stretch (unless it runs waaaay lean).

As for the generalised Ralliart map - not chewing fuel whilst being tuned to a (minimum) of 180Kw and 333nm sounds just fine and dandy to me :)

I am trying to keep as close to the factory specifications because, well... they work. Supercharging is a little exxy and a lot too thirsty for this little black duck.

Cheers
Heath Young

We have to find out the type of chip used in ECU to see if we can dump it, flash it onto a standard ECU. :pray:

Time for google methinx.

heath

below is some flow data from a mob in the USA that do 3000 gt's


Flow bench measurements, stock TT head, cfm
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
0.100" 86-93 77-80
0.200" 165-179 151-164
0.300" 223-230 191-200
0.400" 246-262 195-216
0.500" 249-256 196-219
Values from Barry King (Team3S) and Pat (aka PWR on 3SI).
Max vol. flow at 8000 RPM, 100% VE each cyl. bank = 210 cfm.

Flow bench measurements, stock NT head, cfm
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
0.100" 84.1 73.5
0.200" 169.0 156.5
0.300" 219.9 185.4
0.400" 233.3 191.1
Values from Paul Prentis (PPE Engineering LLC).
Max vol. flow at 8000 RPM, 100% VE each cyl. bank = 210 cfm.
Flow bench measurements, ported NT head, cfm
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
0.100" 90.6 96.2
0.200" 174.9 183.5
0.300" 242.3 210.8
0.400" 260.5 218.8
Values from Paul Prentis (PPE Engineering LLC).
Ferrea 1-mm oversized valves installed.



hope that is useful - may be useful to look throu some of the cam manufactruers data re lift required.

re the ecu - does the magna have a "flash" type memory - if so then it should be relatively easy to change the maps to a ralliart version. . . .

regds

simon