hey guys just wanted to know some info bout advance timing. wat it actually is and does and wat it would improe. can it be done on a kinda stock magna or would u need heavy mods for it. and also is it hard to be done and also will it harm or destroy naything in my engine.

thanks
Ash

Can't be done easily if at all for the 3rd gens. There's no knock sensor in the engine to
detect pinging if the timing is wrong. The second gens are easy, just loosen the distributor
nut and twist the cap. Advancing the timing also requires higher octane fuel to be used
together with a higher compression engine to take full advantage of the mods.

hey guys just wanted to know some info bout advance timing. wat it actually is and does and wat it would improe. can it be done on a kinda stock magna or would u need heavy mods for it. and also is it hard to be done and also will it harm or destroy naything in my engine.
Advanced timing is making ignition occur earlier in the power stroke. Advance it too much and you get pretetonation / pinging which is bad. Retard it too much and you'll loose power. In a 3rd gen it is achievable with a piggyback / replacement computer EMS. You don't need heavy mods to gain from it. Higher RON fuel allows a little more advanced timing.

Advancing the timing also requires higher octane fuel to be used
together with a higher compression engine to take full advantage of the mods.

Actually, higher compression makes it harder to safely advance timing. The higher the compression ratio the greater the likelyhood of detonation under normal conditions, and so you'll induce detonation with a smaller degree of advancement.

On PULP, you're not going to get more than about 6-8 degrees of ignition advance over the standard profile.

The other type of timing you can play with is cam or valve timing, where you alter when the valves open relative to the position of the pistons. This is what you see people talking about when discussing RPWs cam gears. Advancing cam timing will move generally move a power curve lower in the rev range. The opposite occurs when retarding cam timing.

Advancing the cam timing means you get the power coming in earlier? Interesting...

So if you took one of the RPW cams (which seem to produce more power when at 6 degrees retarded) and left it at 0 degrees, you would get the power out of the engine sooner at the expense of top end (and ultimatly max) power?

Cheers
Heath Young

Advancing the cam timing means you get the power coming in earlier? Interesting...

So if you took one of the RPW cams (which seem to produce more power when at 6 degrees retarded) and left it at 0 degrees, you would get the power out of the engine sooner at the expense of top end (and ultimatly max) power?
Yeah, it's a case of:
retarding means that the valve timing is later than the factory setup and can be better for top end
advancing means that the valve timing is earlier than the factory setup and can be better for lower end

I think John (WTCHME) should have a chart handy showing 0 degrees vs redarded.

I think John (WTCHME) should have a chart handy showing 0 degrees vs redarded.

and here it is (http://www.wermspowke.net/wiki/index.php/Image:Wtchme-dynos.jpg)

not the best advertisement though, as in this case power just fell over earlier at 0 degrees rather than coming on sooner as well.

Apparently the ralliart cams are supposed to be 6 degrees retarded(?) according to the autospeed article ages ago - no information in the factory manual so who knows...

Anyone tried moving their cam gears forward by one tooth?? If so what did you find?

Regards

One tooth would be a very very bad idea :P you can adjust cams through the use of a vernier cam gear and the adjustments are tiny, ie a couple of degrees over 360, whereas a tooth is much larger(depending on the number of teeth) Usually having a cam a tooth out will lead to either rough running or valves touching pistons :shock:

Matthius

My stage 1 cams were installed by RPW and they told me that they would be set to 6 deg retarded for best gains.

They should be set to whatever is required to give the best power.. 6 deg ret might be a good starting point, but you shouldn't just drop them in there set it to -6 and hope for the best.

i know this sounds stupid, as i know my mates TJ doesn't do it, but my TL has a sloted distributor both ends, i simply rotated mine round. easy.

i know this sounds stupid, as i know my mates TJ doesn't do it, but my TL has a sloted distributor both ends, i simply rotated mine round. easy.
Interesting...:confused:

interesting looking in manual 1 end of the base of dissy can be adjusted but other end is only a straight hole



might un do the top bolt see if it goes any better advanced a little

I had a look at the above pic the other day. I undid the top one obviously the bottom one will need to be undone as well. Problem is you cant adjust it unless your remove the bottom bolt all together. (If its adjustable at all). Would be intresting to see if it can be adjusted. Who knows may improve throttle response down low. You never know.

it will give me something to do to day or tomorow

I had a look at the above pic the other day. I undid the top one obviously the bottom one will need to be undone as well. Problem is you cant adjust it unless your remove the bottom bolt all together. (If its adjustable at all). Would be intresting to see if it can be adjusted. Who knows may improve throttle response down low. You never know.

Iv tryed it and it does'nt do a thing :confused:

barometrec pressuer sensor controles timing

in higher altatude it advances the timing slightly

hmm

wonder if i can tap and trick it in to thinking its higher than it realy is

might gain a deg or 2

need a eletronics wiz ... it would be goot to have a variable resistor control on dash to alter timing when useing better fuels

might be a good add on to the cai and zorst

Yeah magnus if you could make the other bolt hole a sliding hole, it'd just be a case of twisting it like on the 2nd gens, hopefully anyway!

yea i was thinking that but i think the crank angle sensor controls the timing as well i think i would need to advance it as well

Should be easier just to remove the non sliding bolt. Should work in theory.

They've got crank angle sensors - adjusting the dizzy shouldnt change a thing except where the dizzy is sitting as the ECU will just cross reference to the CAS and see the difference, thats what I would assume anyway, otherwise I definately would have had a go already :P.

Matthius

I'm sure for 3rd gens that the timing reference is the Crank Angle Sensor, then the ECU adjusts it according to engine conditions. The dizzy only rotates at half engine speed and its signal to the ECU is when cylinder 1 is at top on compression stroke. If you read the Mitsu workshop manual on checking the timing it refers to "Base timing" from the CAS.

barometrec pressuer sensor controles timing

in higher altatude it advances the timing slightly

hmm

wonder if i can tap and trick it in to thinking its higher than it realy is

might gain a deg or 2

need a eletronics wiz ... it would be goot to have a variable resistor control on dash to alter timing when useing better fuels

might be a good add on to the cai and zorst



Thread mine, has anyone looked into this further?

Yeah - its been done, but it is a bad idea.

Someone was selling them a while back on Mitsubishi Club Australia. Opinions are polarised on this, so take it with a grain of salt and some input from experts.

Cheers
Heath Young

Yeah, like Heath said there's varied opinions on the subject. Those who've done the mod swear by it, and those with a wealth of experience with engines and mitsubishis (aka, Mitsiman) don't recommend it. Personally I wouldn't do it because I care too much for my car and want it to last.

There has been a lot of mis-information in this thread!

When tuning a timing map (similar to a fuel map) there are a lot of things to consider. Peak torqure occurs when the timing is SPOT ON.

Durring cruise and light load it is physically impossible to advance the timing so much that it pings (on most engines). That makes the old "turn it till it pings and back off" theory only good for WOT and up in the revs.

Say peak torque is at 38 degrees for a motor at 2000rpm and cruising. The motor is making 100kw. If you adjust the timing to 39 degrees btdc, the power doesn't change (noticably) but ifyou go to 40, 42 and then 45 the power decreases exponentially to say 98 95 and 80 respectivly. You have a 3 or 4 degree window where you get peak torque, but this can only be found on a dyno.

Now I can tell you right now, peak emissions, torque and power all happen at the same place, so the factory tune for cruise is very very very good, it is also reliant on the distributor/cas/trigger being set correctly and not over advanced.

The problem with that is, the top end of the scale has to be able to cope with the lowest common denominator, which could be bad fuel, hot days, etc etc. That means that anywhere which can cause damage if there is a problem will be retarded a little to compensate.

The ideal way to do it is with a completely reprogrammable ECU, but that is already stated.

Adjusting the distributor forward will negate the conservative top end but it will most likely cause a small decrease in fuel economy. At the most, put it forward 2 degrees, but no further unless you don't really care about economy.

Yeah, like Heath said there's varied opinions on the subject. Those who've done the mod swear by it, and those with a wealth of experience with engines and mitsubishis (aka, Mitsiman) don't recommend it. Personally I wouldn't do it because I care too much for my car and want it to last.


Whatever, Mitsiman just wants to sell Greddy's at what ever he sells them and I get the same gain for $20 and how the f**k can it hurt my car when the Air fuel ratios are at what tuning shops tune there cars to?????? And of if u go up a big mountain u turn it back to normal, u just have to be aware of it that's all. But what ever if you want to be closed minded so be it. And Mitsiman is the onlyone with a wealth of experience who acutally said it's a bad idea, Redcliffe Dyno and Peformance like it as a matter of fact and Bain knows who they are and there reputation.

Whatever, Mitsiman just wants to sell Greddy's at what ever he sells them and I get the same gain for $20 and how the f**k can it hurt my car when the Air fuel ratios are at what tuning shops tune there cars to?????? And of if u go up a big mountain u turn it back to normal, u just have to be aware of it that's all. But what ever if you want to be closed minded so be it. And Mitsiman is the onlyone with a wealth of experience who acutally said it's a bad idea, Redcliffe Dyno and Peformance like it as a matter of fact and Bain knows who they are and there reputation.

That's because their reputation is built entirely on making XR6T's and V8's go fast.

I'd be surprised if they've seen more than half a dozen Magnas in their workshop since they opened. But whatever - like you said, it's totally reversible so at least you can minimise the risk.

Whatever, Mitsiman just wants to sell Greddy's at what ever he sells them and I get the same gain for $20 and how the f**k can it hurt my car when the Air fuel ratios are at what tuning shops tune there cars to?????? And of if u go up a big mountain u turn it back to normal, u just have to be aware of it that's all. But what ever if you want to be closed minded so be it. And Mitsiman is the onlyone with a wealth of experience who acutally said it's a bad idea, Redcliffe Dyno and Peformance like it as a matter of fact and Bain knows who they are and there reputation.
lol You always take offense anytime someone says anything about your little mod. It's funny as hell. If someone doesn't like it that's their loss, right?

Now now boys settle down. Its a good topic let keep it open..

Regards

lol You always take offense anytime someone says anything about your little mod. It's funny as hell. If someone doesn't like it that's their loss, right?


Pretty much its that you always bag everything and dont actually try it for your self :nuts:

But each to there own, it works, it's a cheap alternative

Pretty much its that you always bag everything and dont actually try it for your self :nuts:

But each to there own, it works, it's a cheap alternative
Where did I bag it? I said I value my car too much to try it. Sorry, maybe I should have put "IMO". :bowrofl:

Yeah, like Heath said there's varied opinions on the subject. Those who've done the mod swear by it, and those with a wealth of experience with engines and mitsubishis (aka, Mitsiman) don't recommend it. Personally I wouldn't do it because I care too much for my car and want it to last.

So does anybody know any of the bad points/concerns with this mod yet? :confused:

In theory it should work fine... but i'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind the dramas with it.

changing the dizzy will give false reading to the ecu about crank angle. while it's good if you wanna advance it, it's not so good when it comes time for the injectors to inject fuel.

changing the dizzy will give false reading to the ecu about crank angle. while it's good if you wanna advance it, it's not so good when it comes time for the injectors to inject fuel.

But advancing the ignition would then also advance the pulse timings of the injectors... meaning fuel is injected sooner if this was the case. Could it really be that bad? :confused:

Sorry... just trying to learn :P

But advancing the ignition would then also advance the pulse timings of the injectors... meaning fuel is injected sooner if this was the case. Could it really be that bad? :confused:

Sorry... just trying to learn :P

yes, but your valve is only open for a certian amount of time. your ecu knows this and will make sure that it does not squirt fuel on a closed valve. chaning the crank angle means the injectors will fire, but possibly on a half open/closed valve.

yes, but your valve is only open for a certian amount of time. your ecu knows this and will make sure that it does not squirt fuel on a closed valve. chaning the crank angle means the injectors will fire, but possibly on a half open/closed valve.

Righto! got it... :)

So thats why spark advance is electronically controlled... so there is no change to crank angle readings during advance.

it's not all that bad, but a aftermarket piggyback does this without changing the injector timing.

moving the dizzy forwards or backwards is just the pov mans way or doing it.

So there would have to be an ideal point at which both the ignition timing and injector pulse could be optimised right? ie, a point of advanced ignition and injector pulse occuring right as the valve is fully open, or just before. etc.. unless thats what the factory specs are dead on... which i highly doubt.

injectors do fire on a closed valve. it keeps them cooler

im running advanced timing on my TR2.6 dont know how far, but no pinging on 98ron but it will on 95ron in 4th gear at 1500rpm full throttle. thats a pretty extream example but i could probly go harder (more timing) but i'd hate to burn out my rings. (hot curry anyone?)

So does anybody know any of the bad points/concerns with this mod yet? :confused:

In theory it should work fine... but i'm interested in hearing the reasoning behind the dramas with it.
Here is what Dave from RPW had to say about it.


Let me clarify exactly what I am talking about one more time and hopefully people will see exactly what I am referring to.

The barometric pressure sensor does more than just alter ignition timing. It is also used as a baseline setting for the injector duty cycle ratings. Just ask teh poor buggers in the USA who have been using superhcargers pushing THROUGH the air flow meter and having lots of wonderful problems with fuel and ignition and check engine lights etc.

The point I am making that on a 100% power run on a dyno sure you can probably tune around the ignition timing to stop it pinging. But what happens when as someone said, its a hot day, theres more people in teh car and say you are at 70% throttle under high load. The car could be pinging and you woudl never know as 90% of detonation occurs below an audible level.

Its fine to say if its pinging, just wind it down or turn it off, but how will you know if its pinging if its not quite audible, you got your stereo pumping with your mates in the car etc.

I think you can see my drift.

Then theres the effect it has on the injector duty cycles - variations in the barometric pressure also effect the injector sizings as a baseline factor in the ECU before it starts applying correction ratios.

This is the main thing I am most concerned about as you could with large changes in atmospheric conditions, start to create a horrible scenario with the ecu.

Now the reality is that the majority of people who would consider this type of item, are not people who woudl be purchasing and bringing there vehicle to me to have it fitted. I don't lose or gain sales (Well depends on how many people break engines) with people using this item.

I am only making these comments because I know how an ECU system works. I know the mitsubishi manuel only refers to the Barometric pressure sensor in reference to ignition timing, I too have read my manuels. But it only has to advise in the manuel for fault sourcing and referencing. It is not goign to go into a full blown description of each inter related item and how it correlates to the next phase of tuning.

If you have had any experience in tuning aftermarket ECU like Haltech, Motec and piggy back systems like I have, you would have a much better understanding of how a modern day ECU works and all teh variables that are involved.

Anyway I am not going to say anymore on this subject at this time. I think I have said everything i need to. Its now the "Customers" choice of whether they wish to try it or not. It may in 90% of cases work out fine. But for those 10% that it doesn't, make sure you save.

I think you need a refresher course in how a 4 stroke motor works. Injection and ignition occur during different "strokes".

Don't give advise if you don't know the topic.....

well duh :nuts: ... of course they do, but the crank angle sensor tells the ecu where the motor is currently at.

I'm in the process of helping a mate build his own ECU for his sigma (www.megasquirt.org) Already hearing success of another guy using the system on his sigma turbo.

at the moment I've got the source code (not the source code that comes with the system - some other guy has wrote another program that has more features - cant remember the url) and had looksie through, and well the crank angle sensor tells the ECU alot of info about when it needs to fire injectors and when spark needs to occur. changing the crank angle sensor puts the injector timing off - which is not so bad - but is a problem.

well duh :nuts: ... of course they do, but the crank angle sensor tells the ecu where the motor is currently at.

I'm in the process of helping a mate build his own ECU for his sigma (www.megasquirt.org) Already hearing success of another guy using the system on his sigma turbo.

at the moment I've got the source code (not the source code that comes with the system - some other guy has wrote another program that has more features) and had looksie through, and well the crank angle sensor tells the ECU alot of info about when it needs to fire injectors and when spark needs to occur. changing the crank angle sensor puts the injector timing off - which is not so bad - but is a problem.

Serious question.. why, in that case, do all the piggy back ecus intercept and modify the CAS trigger signal to alter ignition timing?

Serious question.. why, in that case, do all the piggy back ecus intercept and modify the CAS trigger signal to alter ignition timing?

well, the main reason is to alter ignition timing.

however... i am quite certain from the source code, that injector timing (ie the pulse width, duty cycle) is also dictated by not only throttle position, but also crank angle. upon looking around on various forums, it is because each injectors duty cycle is calculated, and apparently the cylinder that is at intake had it's injector at the specific duty cycle (as per fuel map), but the other cylinders, with a closed valve have a reduced duty cycle - this is to save just that little bit more of fuel at a lower engine speed/nice throttle use. the reasoning also given for the feature was to stop the injector putting in fuel on a closed or semi closed valve, thus making the vaporised fuel turn into fuel droplets when the engine is not hot. however i imagine that the valve would rather hot quick that it would not matter anyways.

perhaps normal injection systems do not do this. i am certian older injections systems dont, but maybe by the 3rd gen, they might have? one would think any of the car manufacturers would be doing stuff to help reduce the amount of fuel (even if it's only small saving - it all add up eventually) used considering it's only gonna get more expensive. just like turning off injectors coasting down a hill with closed throttle. that's only been bought in recently.

Edit: also like to point out that EFI is a learning curve for me... well not so much efi and how a motor works, but more so the specifics how to a ecu does it's job, even stuff like signaling from sensors, and outputs on a electronics level rather than a mechanical level.

by the way hows yours going sports any problems? been a few months now

by the way hows yours going sports any problems? been a few months now


Going well no problems at all, yeah it's been a few months now, cant remember how many lol mine must be ones of those 90% of engines that RPW arnt gonna get to rebuild........

Going well no problems at all, yeah it's been a few months now, cant remember how many lol mine must be ones of those 90% of engines that RPW arnt gonna get to rebuild........
Geez you're a wanker.

Geez you're a wanker.


Well I thinks thats a banning offence hey, I got banned for something like that in a thread like this but each to there own

i think its clear really, anyone who wants checp power at what ever costs gets this lil timing thiongy,

anyone who is serious bout building their car to a certain standard and power level will not touch this ..

bottom line figure out what group ur in

Well I thinks thats a banning offence hey, I got banned for something like that in a thread like this but each to there own

No... he's simply stating a fact. lol J/k guys.

Well if the mod only gives an advance of around the 2deg mark... i cant see it doing any serious harm anytime soon. :confused:

If mitsubishi design the engine that way,its for a reason..... If you want more power then take it to a performance shop. You can take it to the local dealer and they can change it by computer and everything will still work like it was set from factory. Go a head play around with but all its gonna do is cost you big dollars if it F*cks up.

dont forget guys mitsu have emmision laws to consider.. they can make there motors give higher outputs but they need to keep to a standard with in the law.

the quickest way to make more power is to get rid of the cat convertor but they need to be on car by law

Well I thinks thats a banning offence hey, I got banned for something like that in a thread like this but each to there own

I reckon ban everyone on this thread and be done with it.

I reckon ban everyone on this thread and be done with it.

lol... thats a little too easy.

Why dont mitsu drop the sohc design... why not get with the times and go twin cam? That would be the easiest way for them to increase power outputs, also allowing for a decent variable cam timing system.

As for the ignition timing subject... some people (like me :P ) can't afford to spend the big bucks on performance mods and are willing to give anything a try for more power. I've managed to get my car down to an 11sec (stock rated time 13.8) 0-100 time (with much room for improvement) and have barely spent $500 on performance mods. So yeh...

Not having a poke at anybody here but... being a car enthusiast/tuner i think means taking risks sometimes, and i have a 'feeling' that most of the people in this thread would probably like this mod if they tried it. You can choose to believe one persons theory, but theres no evidence as of yet to show that the mod does more harm than good. A change of only a few degress shouldnt cause any detonation as the cars arent exactly running on the absolute 'limit'... if youre not smart enough to run a higher octane fuel after tampering with your ignition timing then its your problem. I think anybody can take $10K and have a performance shop build a monster... but the ones that do their research and have a go are the true enthusiasts. But anywayz... probably best leave this subject be...

cars with knock sensors do knock before the timing is retarded and none of these cars have any problems...how many people in here hear cars driving past pining there asses out..

i hear then all the time and most of the time its due to carbon build up or running crap fuel.

i have one of these timing things on my car and ive been running efuel for the last 10 tanks and had no problems..

the idea of these things were to use when using high octaine fuel

the magna ecu has no way of knowing if your running 91 octaine or 98... thus is why these were made to get the most out of 98octaine fuels.

any mod chip that you fit will either add more fuel and advance the timing.. what else can they do to give more power?

Yeh that's true man, but when a tuner properly tunes the car on a dyno with an interceptor or the like, they get the maps perfect. In my case, the tuner said he removed heaps of fuel after 4000rpm and I should see a big difference in fuel economy even when flogging it regularly. And I did. Fuel consumption went down to 9.9 combined cycle, this tank I've been flogging it pretty much everywhere and my consumption is 10.9, highest one stage at 11.1. So I'm just saying that yes, they need to put more fuel in to create more bang (obviously) but there are alot of other things a tuner does to your car at the same time.

Yeah with proper tuning you account for the varying conditions throughout the rev range and can adjust accordingly (fuel ratios and timming).

With the timing mod, you are modifying one set parameter (and using that ratio for the whole rpm sweep) while it might produce gains, it won't be ideal across the whole rev range.

If mitsubishi design the engine that way,its for a reason.....

+


You can choose to believe one persons theory, but theres no evidence as of yet to show that the mod does more harm than good. A change of only a few degress shouldnt cause any detonation as the cars arent exactly running on the absolute 'limit'... if youre not smart enough to run a higher octane fuel after tampering with your ignition timing then its your problem.

+


the idea of these things were to use when using high octaine fuel

the magna ecu has no way of knowing if your running 91 octaine or 98... thus is why these were made to get the most out of 98octaine fuels.

Pretty much a summary of the issue. Its widely known that magna's run pretty rich already, and they can only deal with 91 ron fuel. Heaps of people only use 95 anyway as personal preference, some even 98. Advancing the timing with a higher octane fuel is a tried and proven way of getting that extra little bit out of each bang, with the known risk of detonation. By doing this mod and advancing the timing a conservative amount (far from the limit of detonation) and checking air fuel ratios on a dyno, it's a relatively safe way to see some benefits from running a higher octane fuel, with the obvious risks involved.

A bunch of people have been running this mod now and thrashing their cars under plenty of circumstances without any adverse affects. Sure it marginally messes up other parameters going into the ecu but so far these haven't caused any problems for anyone involved. If you simply chuck it in and get greedy with how much you advance the timing you will cause damage no questions asked, but if you do it safely it's obvious you can see some cheap gains.

People have to be pioneers of everything, and until someone actually destroys an engine by advancing their timing a conservative amount with this mod it's only fair that people stop bashing it.

I don't think anyone's "bashing it" Merely stating that most people care too much about their cars to attempt this mod with the risk involved. Each to their own tho.

+



+



Pretty much a summary of the issue. Its widely known that magna's run pretty rich already, and they can only deal with 91 ron fuel. Heaps of people only use 95 anyway as personal preference, some even 98. Advancing the timing with a higher octane fuel is a tried and proven way of getting that extra little bit out of each bang, with the known risk of detonation. By doing this mod and advancing the timing a conservative amount (far from the limit of detonation) and checking air fuel ratios on a dyno, it's a relatively safe way to see some benefits from running a higher octane fuel, with the obvious risks involved.

A bunch of people have been running this mod now and thrashing their cars under plenty of circumstances without any adverse affects. Sure it marginally messes up other parameters going into the ecu but so far these haven't caused any problems for anyone involved. If you simply chuck it in and get greedy with how much you advance the timing you will cause damage no questions asked, but if you do it safely it's obvious you can see some cheap gains.

People have to be pioneers of everything, and until someone actually destroys an engine by advancing their timing a conservative amount with this mod it's only fair that people stop bashing it.


:clap::clap: VERY WELL SAID :clap::clap:

Did anyone even read my post :roll:

Did anyone even read my post :roll:
Yes, and i thought it was a fantastic explanation :).

Thanks, that is all :badgrin:

Its a trade off. If you want more power, throw it forward. If you want the good fuel econ, keep it stock.

There are a lot of people on here saying what to do, but I wonder if they have any experience/knowledge other than just reading it elsewhere.

Did anyone even read my post :roll:
Yeah but they probably didn't take it in :bowrofl:

Yep - if they don't like it they don't take it on board. Selective deafness.

Try telling someone their HID kit is illegal and dangerous :rant:

Or that 3rd parabolics are a downgrade in lighting performance :nuts:.

Meh - all you can do is try...

Cheers
Heath Young

Question is this do you try guess it?

Even tho i dont have a replacement/piggyback i was thinking of taking my TP down on the dyno and check the air/fule and timing considering the mods done worth it or not?