I was told something interesting today.
once extractors are installed into a car (we'll use or magna's as an example of course) the engine in theory will run more efficent due to the fact that there is less resistance equaling more power.
Now because the engine is running more efficiently , this in turn causes the engine to run more rich, thus hindering power and a loss of fuel economy which is exactly what i have found.
Obviously if your in the know correct me, if not talk to a mechanic which is what i'll be doing tomorrow.
If this is true, to get the desired performance upgrade out of your car, you must re-tune it to run leaner and back to it's original setting to get the performance

That sounds logical as most cars run richer than needed. I guess that's manufacturers security against a TT Magna episode. Getting retuned with a new management system would appear to be a logical step to overcome this and add performance. This is what Booya found but he didn't have extractors at that stage.

Makes sense...also makes sense as to why our cars gave a big kick after the timing advance.

Makes sense...also makes sense as to why our cars gave a big kick after the timing advance.
yeah but that doesn't change the fact that the car is still running to rich, we just advanced the spark timing which in it's designed point is quite retarded, sorta like u ay paul 8)

LOL :p you're as subtle as a kick in the nuts

To be honest that is not a correct scenario and usually works the opposite.

The theory is correct in the fact that extractors, especially tuned design does improve breathing and efficiency of the vehicle. Because they "Extracto the air" hence the term extractors, they do pull more air through the vehicle and in fact normally lean the car out.

Most cars run rich from the factory and as such, the reason why you can do a lot of modifications to them and still be safe on air/fuel ratio's

Now to the second part ofthe question - how it can run rich / lean.

If the vehicle runs a MAP - Manifold Activated Presure Sensor (Example 1.5 lancer) and when they start running better with air mods they run lean as the car is on a fixed fuel curve that has no adjustment and they lean outas more air is pulled without any additional fuel.

The magna's are different though as they run the famous MAF sensor which registers air flow volume. As you do more air mods to the vehicle, it will at light throttle and medium throttle still register air and adjust the fuel curve.

At WOT - they do go to a fixed fuel curve but once again being so rich it is never normally a problem.

I hope that helps clear things up a little. The only real time there is a problem is in the USA where they run Cali Mod vehicles whcih use up to four O2 sensors and two cat convreters or more where running rich is major issues.

Australian Cars are called Federal Spec Models which do not have the same problems

Ok now I am confused ! so are extractors worthwhile or not :?:

Sorry mechanically at a kindergarden level :cry:

Yeah, they're worth while. By design compared to factory they have to be better.

Forgot about the loop scenario. That's what the O2 sensor is there for.

Cypher, this thread wasnt intended to put the extractors down, it was just an interesting thought.

Extractors are definitely worth it that's for sure. I'm assuming that any/all problems myself and Jason had have all been patched up now and they're as good as gold :D

Thanks for clearing that up Dave.

So basically...our cars already run rich, and by doing this we're leaning it out a little which effectively brings it down to what it should be anyway?

So basically...our cars already run rich, and by doing this we're leaning it out a little which effectively brings it down to what it should be anyway?

Yeah but it sounds as though the ECU will adjust it accordingly. The ECU has tables or maps that get looked up so it knows what to do accordingly when the air mass increases. Sounds like as they run rich, the mods we do lean it out from being rich but still not so lean that it's passed the stoic. ratio but the stock ECU tries to compensate by increasing fuel anyway.

So, more air and fuel = bigger bang. May suck more juice but I'd suggest driving normally on say regular before and after. Chances are that it may suck more mix in which means you need less foot down and the difference might not be noticeable. Besides, if anyone here is doing mods, I don't think you'll be worried about the side effects of economy if we drive like maniacs anyway :lol:

In terms of petrol consumption - how much worse off will you be after putting extractors on?

Probably not much. Killbilly, did you notice anything? I know that's something that I'll monitor and mention as soon as I know.

I didnt notice any difference in economy to be honest.

I've noticed a little worse economy, and after hearing wot i did, i thought it was an interesting topic.
i used to get 10.1L per 100 km's, now it's up to around 11. It will be interesting to see what happens when i get my throttle body on

i have pod/t/b/extractors and muffler and the fuel consump hasn't changed at all - i still get my 300km/s to the half tank line!! more if i take it easy!!

Manual

A few things to remember, the extractors are illegal as far as EPA is concerned unless they have been certified not to increase emmissions and also not to hinder anti pollution systems.

The reason some californian and other states require more than 1 cat is that Bensine in ULP is more harmful then the lead, it needs to be heated to about 1000 deg to kill it otherwise it can be carsnogenic (would not have a clue how to spell it lol)

Dave is right is saying the extractors or headers as some call them will allow the motor to breath better thus the car having been rich to begin with will not suffer for the extractors.

Having the MAS, may be able to meter more air thus a little more fuel, the O2 sensor does not operate under heavy load or acceleration either.

so how long till the tuned length ones from rpw are gonna be avalible ?

Mal: It's Carcenogenic :)

Thanks KB I knew I could count on you to correct me lol

The new race design series was tested initialy on Maneul's car but we needed to modify some of the piping.

That is being done now and then we will be rechecking the system on the car again. Once that is done in around 2 weeks we should then begin production and selling of the system

Should make for a great Christmas present!

Gentlemen, ladies.

I hate to interrupt your intense discussion, but I would like to correct/amend something here.
It appears that Maneul (Manuel?) was indicated as the designing aid with this product. If so, I must have then been the unfortunate guinea pig!
I actually purchased the Race Tuned Length Headers with HPC on 31.07.03 from Aussie Magna, Blake. I installed them my self, obviously.
I was very satisfied with the performance and quality of the product. But not with the design.
Isn’t that the same, you might ask? Not really.
Let me explain.
The front bend of the flexi pipe sits very low in the engine bay. Every bigger hump or ditch or parking lot tyre stopper scrapes the bend and eventually damages it badly.
The standard pipe sits nicely in the semi-round cavity between oil sump and gearbox. The RPW Header’s flexi sits some 40-mm lower, and happens to be the lowest part of the whole cars’ under body. Not good!
Ok, you might say that: “Yee, but your car is lowered too much”. Well, it’s not illegally low – and besides, just think about it. Having headers in the first place means that the vehicle is subject to multiple modifications. Correct? That would include suspension as well. Unless, of course, RPW Headers are only for standard suspension cars. But I would doubt that very much.

I brought the matter up with David of RPW and eventually he agreed to have the problem rectified by asking me to take my vehicle to the actual manufacturer of these headers.
So I did last Saturday. And like too often happens – despite of what we agreed over the phone with the factory, that they would have new design ready for me and so on – this never happened. So, the Killer Mobile is now sitting there for at least a week to have the headers re-designed. I certainly hope that the new design will be a DESIGN, not just bunch of pipes and bends welded together.
(Correct new design of the header is definitely in the best interest of RPW – because, if I get another run around, all 500 Aussie Magna members will know about it!)

Yours in anticipation with no much patience left

PS. Headers/USA, Extractors/GB+Ozland. Just a different name.

Actually the system you purchased was our older tuned length street design not our newer race design.

The difference between the two system is that the older street design runs a shorty header which merges just before the sump and then has a single pipe that becomes the flex pipe bolt up to it.

The newer race design as three pipes merging underneath the sump pan from which then goes into a single flex pipee.

essentially the main difference is that the race header manifold section is approx 150mm longer in the length of the primary pipes before merging into the flex pipe.

I still don't know why you have had the problem you had. With all the systems we have sold yours is the only one that I have had a report on them being too low.

The new design you are referering to is not the same as the new design "Race Header kits"

What we agreed to do for your car was remake the flex pipe with a tighter bend to reduce the depth and raise it higher into the motor so that you had more clearance at the front of the motor.

You are still going to be using the older "Street Design" short header and at no time were we providing a complete new system like the new race design. The only difference was the modifying of a new flex pipe to rectify your clearance issues.

I hope this clears up the misunderstanding as your issues and the clarification fo the new header designs are completely seperate and non related.

We can all understanad your frustration which is why we offered via our manafacturer to have the situation rectified. I have not heard from you since and whilst we again all appreciate your frustration, hopping onto a forum without speaking to me first is not the best way to get a manafacturer to help you out.

David Thomas
www.rpw.com.au

For starters it is a pity that he has to have his car off the road for a week, I wold not have this happen in a pink fit with out a replacement.
Second if they were street design why the hell are they some 40mm lower.
As for problems in the past, 1 member I know of was told to grind his lower control arm support to have clearance issued sorted out not to mention the problems with forgotten o2 sensors.
Sorry but if and when I choose to get extractors I will get a set that have been or are able to be certified fitted.
Again a real pity as this is something good where people are making mod products for these cars it is just a pity that customers have to do so much friggin around to get problems rectified, to the extent of some of the Vic members.

Again to clarify - the isue with the system being too low is a ocmplete new one to us.

We have sold these systems to a lot of magna owners along with USA Galant / Eclipse owners with the 3.0 engine and no one has advised us of them being too low before. I don't see what more we can do other than to have a look at his car (Which we are doing) and to see what we can do to fix this one UNIQUE SITUATION. If you want to complain about us fo rthis then I cannot stop you but I would ask this - what more can I do.

As for the week to rectify the problem - I have not spoken with the manafacturer and I do not know how he is fixing the system. The origonal plan as per my own discussion was to remake a new flex pipe only but the looks of it he may be updated to the newer race design series that we are making now. IF so then to his benefit for he will be getting a better system. But no means is he a guinie pig - the system is already made and had to be only modified in one area which I was not happy with.


The issue with the inner control arms being modified is not a new one and considering how much clearance we had in teh car to start with was not a real problem. The inner control arm had several grooves that stuck out which was a total of 2mm and grinding those two grooves away did not in any way effect the strength of teh system. This was the only side effect of trying to retain a tuned length system.

We spend a lot of time and money on developing these systems and it gets frustrating when people start bagging a product without knowing how much time we spend trying to get it all right. If there are a minor issue we have always endeavoured to work it out aka - we immedietly lined up the repair / replacement of this persons car with our manafacturer.

David Thomas

how much are the extractors gonna cost me?

??????
What!!!!!!!!!
I ordered and paid for RACE Headers. Not Street. Cost me 875 AUD.
NOW I'm baffled!
Blake said he would do a good deal for me for these brand new Race Headers, which were couple of hundred dollars dearer then the “older” Street ones.
Steam is coming out of my ears!!! :evil:
Unfortunately the invoice does not specify what I was supposed to get. But the price should indicate something.

When I mentioned about the design, I meant that when the Factory will start to work on my case, they would do it properly and maintain the tuned length principle. I did not mean that they would give me the actual, real Race Headers. Because to MY knowledge I ALREADY had them. To bend the flexi pipe at the flange will not work – there is already a steep curve. Mr J’s idea was to move the flange up and replace part of the Flexi to accommodate the created style.
Besides, I asked MR J at the Factory if he could simply replace mine with something else they have to avoid costly, fiddly repairs. He said they don’t have anything but this!
I really don’t know what is happening. David, maybe you better contact Mr J and ask him….
If there is the real Race Headers on offer, I’m delighted to get them. You can have my “Street” ones back….. :idea:

But – I never said the product was inferior as such! It provides excellent power increase even on low revs and performs beautifully, not just looks such.
Besides, I did inform you via e-mail that I have been in contact with Mr J. That mail could have been lost in to the ethernet, who knows.
Should we do our laundry on the Forum? Well – debatable. I’m not as young as most Forumists here, probably twice the average age. If I feel like being treated badly – I want other people know about it. So these poor young guys wouldn’t go and do the same mistake and waste their hard-earned money!
Actually, I have been itching to tell all Forumists about the Headers since so many have been asking about them. But I just could NOT promote a product, which obviously was not up to standard. Unique, you say – I know, I am….
And I never said you are NOT acting on this case. You are. I only wanted people to know NOT to rush in to purchasing this item BEFORE it has been properly scrutinised. But as you can see from my comment above – I have been mislead to believe owning the Race Headers. Confusing, eh.

Ball is on your court Mr Thomas. Rectifying my unique situation might gain you plenty of happy customers. Trust me – if I’m satisfied with this – or any other RPW product, I WILL be mouthing and bragging about it to the end of days.

OK,

As far as I am aware as I am in constant contact with Dave - the Race Tuned Length Extractors are not finalised yet - my car will be test fitted with them when they come back from the east.

However, I have contacted blake on your behalf in regards to getting in touch with you killer to see exactly what you have purchased.

I don't think it is appropriate to be discussing how the situation is to be resolved on the public forums.

RPW has a direct number of ( 08 ) 9443 1719.

Please feel free to contact dave and discuss these matters personally.

Emails are not the best forms of communication in these situations.

I hope you sort out the issues with your car and when you do have all the answers to questions and issues raised from these extractors - please let us know the outcome, just in the mean time - keep the discussions on a product with the supplier until issues are resolved.

And hey - I am the same as you (killer) - if a product works well for me I will let the world know it - however, i will not brag about it until it is working at perfect potential.

Please I hope you understand - and if you have any issues with anything I have said - please contact me via PM or email and I will respond within 24 hours.

Regards
Manual

This situation is being looked into and results will announced at a later date.

if anyone has any querries please feel free to e-mail, thansk guys :D