Well, the superchargers been in for about a month now and the pain of parting with the cash has almost gone but the buzz of driving the car hasn't. The fit and finish of the kit is impressive. Looks just like it's installed from factory.

I had a dyno done and it was down on what I expected but this is probably due to the fact that I still have the standard exhaust and also the clutch is slipping a bit. The dyno guys recommended fitting a 3" cat back system. The power was 168.5kw atw

All that aside however, the thing pulls (and sounds) like a jet. We don't have a drag strip in Canberra but I did some preliminary 0-100km times and averaged 5.58 seconds. Quarter mile times would be interesting because the power doesn't drop off all through the rev range and pushes hard all the way to red line.

For an independant review, ask Daniel (Cummins), he had a drive on the weekend:P




.

Well, the superchargers been in for about a month now and the pain of parting with the cash has almost gone but the buzz of driving the car hasn't. The fit and finish of the kit is impressive. Looks just like it's installed from factory.

I had a dyno done and it was down on what I expected but this is probably due to the fact that I still have the standard exhaust and also the clutch is slipping a bit. The dyno guys recommended fitting a 3" cat back system. The power was 168.5kw atw

All that aside however, the thing pulls (and sounds) like a jet. We don't have a drag strip in Canberra but I did some preliminary 0-100km times and averaged 5.58 seconds. Quarter mile times would be interesting because the power doesn't drop off all through the rev range and pushes hard all the way to red line.

For an independant review, ask Daniel (Cummins), he had a drive on the weekend:P




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After VRX II gave us a small sound clip from eons ago.. Think you could provide a few?

Drive by, in cabin, at idle etc.

Most people on these forums are all talk, its good to see some arent. :thumbsup:

Thats awesome. I assume its the standard installation? How much did it set you back in total??

In my opinion, it's a pitty these kits don't produce better dyno figures. Don't get me wrong - I know a dyno output isn't the "be all and end all" when it comes to performance of a car, but it is probably the most widely recognised measure of performance. All I'm saying is - I think this kit would be alot more popular than it currrently is if it were producing kW at the wheel figures of 200+. Hell - we've got two (maybe more) 3.5L's making over 200kW at the wheels NA now.

i want one. 168 doesn't seem right, but lose a bit from the slipping of the cluch. but i still wont one. thoes times are cool 0-100 5.5 hell yeah

i whish i had the funds to do it now. just i always feel i should save my money

Thats awesome. I assume its the standard installation? How much did it set you back in total??

In my opinion, it's a pitty these kits don't produce better dyno figures. Don't get me wrong - I know a dyno output isn't the "be all and end all" when it comes to performance of a car, but it is probably the most widely recognised measure of performance. All I'm saying is - I think this kit would be alot more popular than it currrently is if it were producing kW at the wheel figures of 200+. Hell - we've got two (maybe more) 3.5L's making over 200kW at the wheels NA now.

Comes down to cost aswell Black Beard.

Those NA cars pushing 200+ fwkw's have had more than 8k spent on them.

If he upgrades his clutch and puts in a custom 3" exhaust then im sure those figures will rise to around 200 atw's..

Comes down to cost aswell Black Beard.

Those NA cars pushing 200+ fwkw's have had more than 8k spent on them.

If he upgrades his clutch and puts in a custom 3" exhaust then im sure those figures will rise to around 200 atw's..

Bain, i havnt spent 8K on my engine, hell it hastnt even cost me half of that. Parts for my engine came to just under $2800 (thats for all parts used and includes a pair of new ralliart heads that i bought off of a guy on these forums for a really good price)

I admit i saved a reasonable amount by screwing the engine together myself but that should have only saved me $1500-2000 in labour but all up if i had to pay sumone over here to do it, it wouldve been around $5000 total.

Bain, i havnt spent 8K on my engine, hell it hastnt even cost me half of that. Parts for my engine came to just under $2800 (thats for all parts used and include a pair of new ralliart heads that i bought off of a guy on these forums)

I admit i saved a bit by screwing the engine together myself but that should only have saved me $1500-2000 in labour.

then god damn!!! you should share how the hell you did it soo damn cheap! ahha.. here we have kids spending 1k on cams and 1k on a plenum and getting a measly few kw increase for 2k! Come on! I know you have spent ages researching and trialing and testing. But help the comunity! not everything you know or have done... just a few little tit bits mate!:D

No worries Bain, I'll get some audio happening. The whine of the supercharger really is something.

The dyno figures are dissapointing but I'm pretty confident that that'll all change with the exhaust upgrade. I stood there and watched when they did the dyno and there's no way the 2.5 inch standard exhaust is keeping up with what's been sent to it by the engine and S/C.

If everyone checks out the thread about "what you've spent modifying your car" I reckon $7800 on a supercharger is good value in comparison to most mods.

Bain, i havnt spent 8K on my engine, hell it hastnt even cost me half of that. Parts for my engine came to just under $2800 (thats for all parts used and include a pair of new ralliart heads that i bought off of a guy on these forums)

I admit i saved a bit by screwing the engine together myself but that should only have saved me $1500-2000 in labour.

Come on Jason:P your case is a little different. If someone without allot of Mechanical knowlage goes to get complete work done, it will cost a fair bit of money. 6-8K for about 140-160kW at the wheels is the average cost for Magnas these days.

It's different if you have very good sources or access to equipment...most people don't.:D

then god damn!!! you should share how the hell you did it soo damn cheap! ahha.. here we have kids spending 1k on cams and 1k on a plenum and getting a measly few kw increase for 2k! Come on! I know you have spent ages researching and trialing and testing. But help the comunity! not everything you know or have done... just a few little tit bits mate!:D


Agreed 100%

You keep telling every1 about your hi-po engine, why not tell us a few things...
where u got it all, how much it set you back, where you got it done..

or are you worried that other people out there will do the same and you wont be so 'unique'
anymore ?


Congrats on the supercharger upgrade ReallyArt !
Now how's about some vids !!

Come on Jason:P your case is a little different. If someone without allot of Mechanical knowlage goes to get complete work done, it will cost a fair bit of money. 6-8K for about 140-160kW at the wheels is the average cost for Magnas these days.

It's different if you have very good sources or access to equipment...most people don't.:D

U dont need many tools to screw an engine together, the most expensive and needed tool is a good torque wrench. Im sure People would be surprised if the actually tried and engine rebuild that it isnt very difficult. Use the factory workshop manual and its quite easy.

Hell weve got guys converting autos to manuals etc but everyone seems scared to put a engine together, when there about the same difficulty.

One thing i have noticed is prices for labour and machining seem to be alot dearer on the east coast than they are here in my area. Even parts differ alot in price, as a example i had a certain supplier?auto parts shop try to charge me $33each per iridium sparkplug here in adelaide but i was able to get them thru the local parts shop in my country town for $19.5each.

U dont need many tools to screw an engine together, the most expensive and needed tool is a good torque wrench. Im sure People would be surprised if the actually tried and engine rebuild that it isnt very difficult. Use the factory workshop manual and its quite easy.

Hell weve got guys converting autos to manuals etc but everyone seems scared to put a engine together, when there about the same difficulty.

Could very well be the case, but realistically, even with the best workshop manual a person without previous mechanical knowledge (but a passion for driving fast cars) would not be able to rebuild an engine without on hand assistance.

Not arguing with you, just sharing my point of view...but having said that I would sure love to attempt it one day (just not on my car, maybe a cheap thrash box to practise onlol ).

then god damn!!! you should share how the hell you did it soo damn cheap! ahha.. here we have kids spending 1k on cams and 1k on a plenum and getting a measly few kw increase for 2k! Come on! I know you have spent ages researching and trialing and testing. But help the comunity! not everything you know or have done... just a few little tit bits mate!:D

Its called doing sumthings yourself, grab a factory workshop manual and give it a go. Ask the many number of guys on here that ive helped out for nothing. When they have seen how easy doing stuff was they cant work out why "they" didnt try it themselves earlier. :)

Damn you ReallyArt for putting ideas in my head.

Just had a very interesting conversation with the sales manager from Bullet Performance here in Qld (Authorised Sprintex installer up here).

Could very well be the case, but realistically, even with the best workshop manual a person without previous mechanical knowledge (but a passion for driving fast cars) would not be able to rebuild an engine without on hand assistance.

Not arguing with you, just sharing my point of view...but having said that I would sure love to attempt it one day (just not on my car, maybe a cheap thrash box to practise onlol ).

You got it in one. I learnt to build a engine when i was 13yrs old, i stripped and rebuilt a 998mini motor. :D
Thats how ya gain knowledge, by getting in and giving it a go, just like anything in life really.

You got it in one. I learnt to build a engine when i was 13yrs old, i stripped and rebuilt a 998mini motor. :D

Hrmmm, where did I leave that trading post laying aroundlol

Bain, i havnt spent 8K on my engine, hell it hastnt even cost me half of that. Parts for my engine came to just under $2800 (thats for all parts used and includes a pair of new ralliart heads that i bought off of a guy on these forums for a really good price)

I admit i saved a reasonable amount by screwing the engine together myself but that should have only saved me $1500-2000 in labour but all up if i had to pay sumone over here to do it, it wouldve been around $5000 total.

Sorry bud, but you are an exception. YOu do all the work yourself, you have the tool and machinery to do it.

Show me 1 other 170 - 220 kw ATW's NA car thats been built for 5K... not gonna happen.

Sorry bud, but you are an exception. YOu do all the work yourself, you have the tool and machinery to do it.

Show me 1 other 170 - 220 kw ATW's NA car thats been built for 5K... not gonna happen.

Ur a memeber of the australian ford forums, theres a few NA 6 falcons on there with 170+ kws at wheels that have been done for under $5000 also plenty of old 5l VB-VL commos pushing that sort of power for under $5000 but i know where ya mean mate :)

People play with fords and holdens more, so thats were there knowledge base is but realisticly screwing any engine together is the same no matter what brand it is. Parts prices are a different story but as i said before (and sum guys on here will agree) that if you price around and do your homework you can get parts cheaper than what you might think. :)

Anyway ReallyArt enjoy your car, as we all have magnas and they really are a great car to own and drive :P Looking forward to hearing the sound clips.

Ur a memeber of the australian ford forums, theres a few NA 6 falcons on there with 170+ kws at wheels that have been done for under $5000 also plenty of old 5l VB-VL commos pushing that sort of power for under $5000 but i know what ur getting at mate :)

People play with fords and holdens more, so thats were there knowledge base is but realisticly screwing any engine together is the same no matter what brand it is. Parts prices are a different story but as i said before (and sum guys on here will agree) that if you price around and do your homework you can get parts cheaper than what you might think. :)

Anyway ReallyArt enjoy your car as well all have magnas and they really are a great car to own and drive :P Looking forward to hearing the sound clips.
There's also thousands more performance "bolt ons" available to those cars which are half the price that magna ones are.

There's also thousands more performance "bolt ons" available to those cars which are half the price that magna ones are.

You obviously havnt read my posts properly. I stated about shopping around and used my iridium sparkplugs etc as a example.
By me shopping around, i saved $81 on a set of 6 plugs ($19.5ea compared to $33ea quoted in adelaide), my pistons, i got for for under $300 with rings. My pacemaker extractors i got for $380 (was quoted up to $600 at some places in adelaide) Cams cost me $600 for the pair made to the grind i wanted (originally quoted $800 but talked them down)

My engine build up didnt happen overnight, i hunted around for good prices and also sorted the crap from the cream, so to speak until i had what i needed. Its like anything we buy, ya never take the first price you see or get quoted. :)

You obviously havnt read my posts properly. I stated about shopping around and used my iridium sparkplugs etc as a example.
By me shopping around, i saved $81 on a set of 6 plugs ($19.5ea compared to $33ea quoted in adelaide), my pistons, i got for for under $300 with rings. My pacemaker extractors i got for $380 (was quoted up to $600 at some places in adelaide) Cams cost me $600 for the pair made to the grind i wanted (originally quoted $800 but talked them down)

My engine build up didnt happen overnight, i hunted around for good prices and also sorted the crap from the cream, so to speak until i had what i needed. Its like anything we buy, ya never take the first price you see or get quoted. :)

i agreed with every bit you have said. even the doing it yourself part. Just let us know what you have done to get the car to the stage its at.. or even near. e.g. Cams, heads, pitson, ecu and all that kinda stuff and to what kinda spec. I like to pull things apart and try and do things myself. Like i made my own exhuast and air intake. i know their small things but i try.. ahha i once pulled off my intake plenum and all and then i got stuck trying to put it back together. had to call up clarion magna to come help me put it back together.

help us! :D

You obviously havnt read my posts properly. I stated about shopping around and used my iridium sparkplugs etc as a example.
By me shopping around, i saved $81 on a set of 6 plugs ($19.5ea compared to $33ea quoted in adelaide), my pistons, i got for for under $300 with rings. My pacemaker extractors i got for $380 (was quoted up to $600 at some places in adelaide) Cams cost me $600 for the pair made to the grind i wanted (originally quoted $800 but talked them down)

My engine build up didnt happen overnight, i hunted around for good prices and also sorted the crap from the cream, so to speak until i had what i needed. Its like anything we buy, ya never take the first price you see or get quoted. :)
Yeh i did, but its hard for the average joe to do that unless he has good contacts. Dont get me wrong, i agree with what you're saying :). I'm just saying that ford/holden performance parts are produced in more bulk, so they are typically cheaper.

i agreed with every bit you have said. even the doing it yourself part. Just let us know what you have done to get the car to the stage its at.. or even near. e.g. Cams, heads, pitson, ecu and all that kinda stuff and to what kinda spec. I like to pull things apart and try and do things myself. Like i made my own exhuast and air intake. i know their small things but i try.. ahha i once pulled off my intake plenum and all and then i got stuck trying to put it back together. had to call up clarion magna to come help me put it back together.

help us! :D

Well u all know that i am able to reflash my factory ECU and i have been helping simon with his enquires to a place in the USA regarding there flashingsoftware and whether its usable on the magna ECU's that ypu guys have.
Heads are heavily reworked/ported ralliart heads with modified/cc'd combustion chambers but standard sized valves (there plenty big enough) heavy duty valve springs with internal damper spring, my 10.1 pistons are off the shelf ACL pistons which suit the 3.5L DOHC pajero, Cams are custom ground (high lift/long duration) to my specs, Engine is bored 20thou oversize, crank is ground 10thou undersize, rods resized and fitted with uprated rod bolts, bottom end is fully balanced and blueprinted (Setup for occasional 7900rpm maxlimit). Throttle body is enlarged to 71.3mm and fitted to custom top plenum, no EGR setup is fitted, bottom plenum is port matched to heads, factory airbox but with a second air feed fitted, Pacemaker extractors, hi flow cat and 2 1/2 exhaust.

Thats as much as i will say for now. People from here that i speak to on MSN know abit more detail than this.

Now enough of spaming ReallyArts thread, lets all sit back and enjoy the result of another magna that has been modified more than just basic mods.

Damn you ReallyArt for putting ideas in my head.


Oh, so now it's my fault. You'll make someone a fine wife one day Black Beard:bowrofl:


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Well u all know that i am able to reflash my factory ECU and i have been helping simon with his enquires to a place in the USA regarding there flashingsoftware and whether its usable on the magna ECU's that ypu guys have.

Is that the ECUTek software (http://www.ecutek.com/), or something else?

Is that the ECUTek software (http://www.ecutek.com/), or something else?

Im not sure who simon010 is enquiring to reguarding the magna ECU, all ive been doing is suppling him pics of the insides of a factory TJ ECU.

He would be a better person to ask in reguards to what software it is. :)

For an independant review, ask Daniel (Cummins), he had a drive on the weekend:P


I must say...Bloody awesome!!!
The sound is amazing, pulls a lot harder and more consistently through the rev range. The clutch is a big issue, mind u that’s prolly cos my clutch won’t slip even if u try :) And the 3” exhaust should free things up and give it an even more awesome note! Fit is very nice, don't think u'd pick it for being modified except for the cool sound...if u knew nothing bout magnas that is...

Wakefield here we come! (sent u an email bout that btw…& martin said to ring him bout the clutch, said he can get one similar 2 mine without putting such a ridiculously heavy cover-plate on it, worth a shot.)

Big problem is that we need an agent capable of tuning the sprintex setup in Canberra!!!

Oh…And the ACT gov need to hurry up and build the Dragway behind my place in Hackett!!!

Cummins.

@Reallyart - Not to be picky and dont take this too seriously, but shouldn't you have gotten your clutch fixed before putting an $8,000 supercharger in?
I think your priorities are a little mixed up :P.

@Reallyart - Not to be picky and dont take this too seriously, but shouldn't you have gotten your clutch fixed before putting an $8,000 supercharger in?
I think your priorities are a little mixed up :P.
It's not the clutch that's stuffed it's the coverplate that's not clamping hard enough, would have been fine until the power/troque jumped so much! Just a slight upgrade in order...

Very Very Very Nice!

Are there problems getting the power down tho? (i.e wheelspin) Have you modified anything in that regard?

@Reallyart - Not to be picky and dont take this too seriously, but shouldn't you have gotten your clutch fixed before putting an $8,000 supercharger in?
I think your priorities are a little mixed up :P.

Not really a priority problem as no one knew if the clutch would slip or not as no manuals have been done and no point spending money on a new clutch if it was going to be okay . In any case I figure it's a consumable part and was prepared to get a new one if need be.

It doesn't slip that much in any case as shown by the 0-100 times.

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Good stuff ReallyArt. I'm sure even with your dyno figure of 160 odd kws atw, you car would still pull harder than any NA magna modded or not. 0 - 100 in 5 or so secs is quick. hope to see a 1/4 mile time from a supercharged magna soon. :cool:

Good stuff ReallyArt. I'm sure even with your dyno figure of 160 odd kws atw, you car would still pull harder than any NA magna modded or not. 0 - 100 in 5 or so secs is quick. hope to see a 1/4 mile time from a supercharged magna soon. :cool:

:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :noway:

About time you posted ReallArt, now we will have no meet up and compare the AWD Supercharged VRX and the FWD Supercharged Ralliart. I go down the coast to Batemans pretty often so will have to make a trip via Canberra. Where/How did you time your 0-100 times?

how do you cool your supercharger as you obviously dont have an automatic transmission cooler. Is it cooled through engine oil instead or something totally different?

Very Very Very Nice!

Are there problems getting the power down tho? (i.e wheelspin) Have you modified anything in that regard?

Im also interested in this question, as mentioned before in other threads i have been speaking with sprintex and am seriously thinking about doing the kit. Do you find that traction is an issue, especially since ur currently at 160fwkw where as 200fwkw would be an even worse issue....
Cheers,
and congrats

Sounds MAD, would like to see some vid footage of it going down the quarter.

Not really a priority problem as no one knew if the clutch would slip or not as no manuals have been done and no point spending money on a new clutch if it was going to be okay . In any case I figure it's a consumable part and was prepared to get a new one if need be.

It doesn't slip that much in any case as shown by the 0-100 times.

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Ah ok, but if the supercharger is causing it, i thought sprintex offered a warranty on transmission and engine?

:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :noway:

Hmmm.....Do i detect a note of scepticism? Is there a challenge brewing?:D

Hmmm.....Do i detect a note of scepticism? Is there a challenge brewing?:D
The ultimate N/A vs supercharged showdown!
Would be one awesome race to watch :badgrin: .

Hmmm.....Do i detect a note of scepticism? Is there a challenge brewing?:D

Im always up for a challenge BUT if it happens it should include a few drag runs and then a few laps of a racetrack in street trim (i dont believe in fitting slicks or taking stuff out of a car to run at the drags or around a racetrack).

Maybe the ultimate magna challenge would be NA fwd V's S/C fwd V's S/C AWD V's turbo fwd? :P
Would make a nice club video i think.

Im always up for a challenge BUT if it happens it should include a few drag runs and then a few laps of a racetrack in street trim (i dont believe in fitting slicks or taking stuff out of a car to run at the drags or around a racetrack).

Maybe the ultimate magna challenge would be NA fwd V's S/C fwd V's S/C AWD V's turbo fwd? :P
Would make a nice club video i think.
Indeed. Your mechanics are gonna be very happy too after all those races for giving him so much work to fix broken stuff. lol

Very Very Very Nice!

Are there problems getting the power down tho? (i.e wheelspin) Have you modified anything in that regard?

Well first gear is almost redundantlol

Well actually it's just a case of modifying how you drive but then that's going to be the same with any car that's modified I guess (unless it's AWD and then you've got to upgrade drive train components if you don't want to break something)

About time you posted ReallArt, now we will have no meet up and compare the AWD Supercharged VRX and the FWD Supercharged Ralliart. I go down the coast to Batemans pretty often so will have to make a trip via Canberra. Where/How did you time your 0-100 times?

Yeah, we go down to the Bay quite often also so sounds like a good idea. No doubt Cummins would be in that to?

Only used a stop watch for 0-100 times. The Correvitt was in getting repairedlol (I think that's the excuse Motor always use isn't it?).

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how do you cool your supercharger as you obviously dont have an automatic transmission cooler. Is it cooled through engine oil instead or something totally different?

That's right. It's cooled through the engne oil. There's a braided line running from down near the sump up to the S/C.

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Im also interested in this question, as mentioned before in other threads i have been speaking with sprintex and am seriously thinking about doing the kit. Do you find that traction is an issue, especially since ur currently at 160fwkw where as 200fwkw would be an even worse issue....
Cheers,
and congrats


The Torsen diff in the manual Ralliarts does a pretty good job of getting the power down. The diff and the anti lift castor kit means that unless your a total gumby, getting away smoothly is not such an issue. Also, when driving around in town normally, you wouldn't even know there was a supercharger installed (apart from the sound) as it drives like standard.

Just out of interest also, the fuel consumption has only increased by one litre ie it was 10.5 before and now it's 11.5 around town. Highway went from 8.5 to 9.3

Im always up for a challenge BUT if it happens it should include a few drag runs and then a few laps of a racetrack in street trim (i dont believe in fitting slicks or taking stuff out of a car to run at the drags or around a racetrack).

Maybe the ultimate magna challenge would be NA fwd V's S/C fwd V's S/C AWD V's turbo fwd? :P
Would make a nice club video i think.

Now your talking! A bit of track action would be fun. It's probably a bit hard though as your in SA and I'm in ACT.

Like what you've done to the car Jason. That's some pretty awsome power from an N/A car. Actually that's some pretty awsome power from any car!

I'll have to get to a drag strip sometime soon. What's the closest one to the ACT?

.

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Now your talking! A bit of track action would be fun. It's probably a bit hard though as your in SA and I'm in ACT.

Like what you've done to the car Jason. That's some pretty awsome power from an N/A car. Actually that's some pretty awsome power from any car!

I'll have to get to a drag strip sometime soon. What's the closest one to the ACT?

.

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i reckon eastern creed (WSID) would be close enough for you.. Make sure you let us Sydney guys no if you play to go....

i reckon eastern creed (WSID) would be close enough for you.. Make sure you let us Sydney guys no if you play to go....

agreed, Western Sydney International Dragway would seem to be the closest (that said it would still take him 3/4hours to get to, depending on speed) :cool:

Nice work mate, looking forward to the clips...

Now i'm tempted that lil bit more to get the sprintex sc kit :)

why doesn't anyone consider the twin turbo setup?

now the car goes as hard as it looks

good to see someone with another unusal and good mod into thier precsious magna

why doesn't anyone consider the twin turbo setup?

now the car goes as hard as it looks

good to see someone with another unusal and good mod into thier precsious magna

TT cost HEAPS more than $7k....

TT cost HEAPS more than $7k....

ok shut up now...hurry up and get a supercharger on yours....lol lol

can someone tell me something? lol

im sure other are curious bout this aswell, but i dont understand why u cant use certain cams for a s/c set up ... i just always thought an NA set up could always be carried over to a s/c'er :P

can someone tell me something? lol

im sure other are curious bout this aswell, but i dont understand why u cant use certain cams for a s/c set up ... i just always thought an NA set up could always be carried over to a s/c'er :P

I'm not 100% sure on all the science behind it but here goes.

Different lift and duration characteristics are optimal for delivering air under boost than at normal pressure. From memory - cams designed for hi-po supercharged applications have bigger lift and shorter duration than cams optimised for a NA application.

So it's not that you can't use NA cams in a SC'd car, or vice-verca, but if you want to "tune" the car to take full advantage of whatever induction setup you have, then it is desirable to run different cam profiles.

Hope that makes some sence.

I'm not 100% sure on all the science behind it but here goes.

Different lift and duration characteristics are optimal for delivering air under boost than at normal pressure. From memory - cams designed for hi-po supercharged applications have bigger lift and shorter duration than cams optimised for a NA application.

So it's not that you can't use NA cams in a SC'd car, or vice-verca, but if you want to "tune" the car to take full advantage of whatever induction setup you have, then it is desirable to run different cam profiles.

Hope that makes some sence.

Yep pretty well said, a large duration camshaft is just basically wasteful in a forced induction setup, you blow boost through the combustion chamber and out the exhaust during the overlap periods of the cam, by and large the bigger the duration the bigger the overlap. For a forced setup lift is required, allowing more air in without the cost of wasted boost.

Matthius

thnx guys;)

Indeed. Your mechanics are gonna be very happy too after all those races for giving him so much work to fix broken stuff. lol

I do all the work and servicing on my own car and my car has done many laps of mallala raceway here in SA. Nothing has broken while circuit racing yet, about all it goes through is front brake pads and petrol (mallala is massively hard on brakes), oh and front tyres of course :P

I do all the work and servicing on my own car and my car has done many laps of mallala raceway here in SA. Nothing has broken while circuit racing yet, about all it goes through is front brake pads and petrol (mallala is massively hard on brakes), oh and front tyres of course :P


Wakefield Park, where I go, is massively hard on front left tyres. Other than that, no problems so far.


.

Forgot to ask those guys like Jason with high output N/A cars, how do you find the torque from your cars. Is it proportionally as high as the power? Some engines like Honda and Toyota put out good power but have shocking torque.Although I guess they're fairly small capacity engines anyway. It's always hard to compare torque from dyno printouts though.

I'll scan in my dyno sheets so we can compare. Maybe there should be an area on the forum where dyno printouts can be stored. Kind of like the quarter mile registry??


.

Forgot to ask those guys like Jason with high output N/A cars, how do you find the torque from your cars. Is it proportionally as high as the power? Some engines like Honda and Toyota put out good power but have shocking torque.Although I guess they're fairly small capacity engines anyway. It's always hard to compare torque from dyno printouts though.

I'll scan in my dyno sheets so we can compare. Maybe there should be an area on the forum where dyno printouts can be stored. Kind of like the quarter mile registry??

.

My car makes around the same torque under 2500rpm as a standard 3.5L then it comes on strong from there, max torque was from around 4250rpm to about 5200rpm, max power was reached at 6800rpm, this was recorded when it was on a engine dyno. So my car is similar to drive around town as standard 3.5L although it doesnt really like lopeing along in 3rd gear at 40kmh.
Hope that explains it a bit to you, im sure brendons TJ would be similar to mine around town?

My car makes around the same torque under 2500rpm as a standard 3.5L then it comes on strong from there, max torque was from around 4250rpm to about 5200rpm, max power was reached at 6800rpm, this was recorded when it was on a engine dyno. So my car is similar to drive around town as standard 3.5L although it doesnt really like lopeing along in 3rd gear at 40kmh.
Hope that explains it a bit to you, im sure brendons TJ would be similar to mine around town?

Because of such a lumpy cam profile and lightweight components, high compression etc., what's the minimum revs you can sustain practically while cruising? My bog stock 5 speed 3.5l gets a bit moody under about 1800, I imagine yours would be more like 2400?

Oh and btw, what's your "daily redline" so to speak, and rev limiter now if you care to share?

Some engines like Honda and Toyota put out good power but have shocking torque.Although I guess they're fairly small capacity engines anyway.

VTEC engines lack the torque because they love to rev. all the power comes on once vtec kicks in (usually around 7k). hence the high kw figure but sfa torque.

Because of such a lumpy cam profile and lightweight components, high compression etc., what's the minimum revs you can sustain practically while cruising? My bog stock 5 speed 3.5l gets a bit moody under about 1800, I imagine yours would be more like 2400?

Oh and btw, what's your "daily redline" so to speak, and rev limiter now if you care to share?

As i said earlier its pretty much like a standard 3.5L down low all i do is put it back a gear and keep the revs above 2000 and all is sweet. :)

As i dont drive the car every day anymore (thats what i got my SP23 for) i dont have a "daily" redline but when i do drive it i dont normally take it over 5000.
Rev limiter is now set at 7900rpm but i dont really take it past 7200.

My car makes around the same torque under 2500rpm as a standard 3.5L ... So my car is similar to drive around town as standard 3.5L although it doesnt really like lopeing along in 3rd gear at 40kmh.
Hope that explains it a bit to you, im sure brendons TJ would be similar to mine around town?

:stoopid:

Bingo.

I can do 40 in 3rd but only once the engine has completely heat soaked and the aircon is off lol I'm going to switch from the twin throttles I have now to a single 80mm throttle, and I'm hoping the smoother air flow will make it a little less temperamental.

Although owing to the different configuration of my engine, I have more torque than I had stock from about 1500rpm up. Going along with that my peak power occurs at more like 6000rpm, and hard rev limit is 7400rpm. I've got a shift light set up for 6400rpm.

Dyno sheet for me is here (http://www.wermspowke.net/images/dyno-hc.jpg).

Here are my dyno printouts.

Before anyone gets too excited about the torque figures, don't forget, gearing multiplies the outcome. The printout says third gear but the dyno guy told me he did it in 4th??

I was told that it's leaning out slightly and that the tune could be improved.

Those look really nice :)

TT cost HEAPS more than $7k....


i thought it was from the price range of 8 - 8.5k from rpw,

i thought it was from the price range of 8 - 8.5k from rpw,

yeah the whole thing might start at 8k.. no way you'd be driving away for that price i wouldnt bother thinking about it unless you had 15k ready to burn

VTEC engines lack the torque because they love to rev. all the power comes on once vtec kicks in (usually around 7k). hence the high kw figure but sfa torque.

VTEC doesn't really kick in lol (you made it sound like it's some special bit of hardware that injects a boost of power into the engine:D ) , VTEC is just the name they gave for they variable cam technology, it's always working (so to speak). Saying it usually kicks in around 7K is being a bit general, the switch over point will be dictated by cam profiles (depending on the cam specs, they want to switch to the higher cam once the low cam profile is dropping out of it's efficiency rpm)

A VTEC engine (or any other with the ability to change the cam profile) has the potential to create more low down torque then a similarly powerful non VTEC engine (Leave a VTEC engine stuck in the high cam profile and it will be a dog to drive around town). Simply because having two cam profiles allows you to run low-mid rpm cam settings for more torque with the high rpm cam profile more suited for peak power production (plugs the whole in power/torque down low created by an agressive cam).

The reason for VTEC (or any other variable valve technology) is to increase the efficiency of an engine throughout a higher spread of rpm.

Pneumatically actuated valves like in F1 cars can be programed to produce peak efficiency through the whole rev range because they aren't physically restricted by having a cam).

yeah the whole thing might start at 8k.. no way you'd be driving away for that price i wouldnt bother thinking about it unless you had 15k ready to burn

yea, i suppose, actually i don't think it comes with an intercooler kit, and i assuming you'd need to upgrade some of the internals, yea, i can see the 15k, double the supercharger price,

Here are my dyno printouts. .


Nothing but respect my friend....
good work :cool:

A VTEC engine (or any other with the ability to change the cam profile) has the potential to create more low down torque then a similarly powerful non VTEC engine (Leave a VTEC engine stuck in the high cam profile and it will be a dog to drive around town


This is a discussion that pops up regularly at work, a small duration low lift cam profile like the VTEC/MIVEC etc engines run on at low revs don't produce the torque of a big cam engine at low revs, what they do give you is driveability and fuel economy, I've overlayed dyno graphs of my friends car with a near stock 302 cleveland, and his fully worked 308degree cam engine once it was put in, it produces more torque across the range, from the word go it's just that the difference increases as the revs rise, giving the feeling that the big cam engine is doughy down low. In truth it will start pulling away off the mark and continue doing so at a greater rate as the revs rise.

Matthius - end my threadjack :P

Hell weve got guys converting autos to manuals etc but everyone seems scared to put a engine together, when there about the same difficulty.

i'd say auto to manual is probably harder than rebuild a motor... i've done both... not to my car, but mates cars. engine just falls together so easily... auto to manual you have to make holes in the firewall for clutch pedal, etc etc... pain in the ass.

Nice work, Reallyart.:thumbsup:

Bring on the sound clips!:drool:

VTEC doesn't really kick in lol

laymans terms dkhed....

explain the difference then between vtec and i-vtec, and vvtli and vvti, and why it is difficult but not impossible to turbocharge a 92 civic SI-R

smart guy :D

laymans terms dkhed....

explain the difference then between vtec and i-vtec, and vvtli and vvti, and why it is difficult but not impossible to turbocharge a 92 civic SI-R

smart guy

My mate turbo'd his type r integra, works a charm.... vtec turbo is intense

VTEC doesn't really kick in lol (you made it sound like it's some special bit of hardware that injects a boost of power into the engine:D ) , VTEC is just the name they gave for they variable cam technology, it's always working (so to speak). Saying it usually kicks in around 7K is being a bit general, the switch over point will be dictated by cam profiles (depending on the cam specs, they want to switch to the higher cam once the low cam profile is dropping out of it's efficiency rpm)

A VTEC engine (or any other with the ability to change the cam profile) has the potential to create more low down torque then a similarly powerful non VTEC engine (Leave a VTEC engine stuck in the high cam profile and it will be a dog to drive around town). Simply because having two cam profiles allows you to run low-mid rpm cam settings for more torque with the high rpm cam profile more suited for peak power production (plugs the whole in power/torque down low created by an agressive cam).

The reason for VTEC (or any other variable valve technology) is to increase the efficiency of an engine throughout a higher spread of rpm.

Pneumatically actuated valves like in F1 cars can be programed to produce peak efficiency through the whole rev range because they aren't physically restricted by having a cam).

you just used 236 words to explain what thedifference did in about 25... thank you for wasting my life

VTEC is just the name they gave for they variable cam technology, it's always working (so to speak).

not in vtec mode it isnt. below the vtec point, it uses as little fuel as any other NA 1.6 litre. that's the beauty of vtec. low petrol consumption, but when you want it, the power is there.




Saying it usually kicks in around 7K is being a bit general,

hence the use of "(usually around 7k)" as it differs from model and make of honda. also if i had a vafc i can set the vtec point at 1,000rpm.....



the switch over point will be dictated by cam profiles (depending on the cam specs, they want to switch to the higher cam once the low cam profile is dropping out of it's efficiency rpm)

its also dictated by oil pressure, cam profiles, and a preset point by the ecu.




A VTEC engine (or any other with the ability to change the cam profile) has the potential to create more low down torque then a similarly powerful non VTEC engine (Leave a VTEC engine stuck in the high cam profile and it will be a dog to drive around town). Simply because having two cam profiles allows you to run low-mid rpm cam settings for more torque with the high rpm cam profile more suited for peak power production (plugs the whole in power/torque down low created by an agressive cam).

The reason for VTEC (or any other variable valve technology) is to increase the efficiency of an engine throughout a higher spread of rpm.


so basically, the more you rev it, the more power you get? hmm.....
VTEC engines lack the torque because they love to rev. all the power comes on once vtec kicks in (usually around 7k). hence the high kw figure but sfa torque.


i can go into more detail about how the different sets of cams get locked into place depending (and the kind of mechanism that is used, and the optimal engine temp to make use of vtec properly) on what rpm the engine is at too. but that would be going off topic.....

Back On Topic Guys

laymans terms dkhed....

Nice, but I wasn't having a go at you.:P


']you just used 236 words to explain what thedifference did in about 25... thank you for wasting my life

As I said I didn't mean to question his knowlage, just a bit of discusion, but it's nice you stick up for your mates. And sorry for wasting your life, I didn't know reading did that....

Unreal bud should be able to get a low 14second pass now possibly high 13's does it pull hard after 100kmph ?

Unreal bud should be able to get a low 14second pass now possibly high 13's does it pull hard after 100kmph ?


If anything , that's where it really starts to be a noticeable improvement over the standard car. The push is constant and hard right up to redline with none of the drop off in power experienced with the standard N/A setup.

I don't think it's wishfull thinking to say that it will be sub 14 seconds (and if it isn't, I'm selling it and getting an EVO IV):shock:


.

If anything , that's where it really starts to be a noticeable improvement over the standard car. The push is constant and hard right up to redline with none of the drop off in power experienced with the standard N/A setup.

I don't think it's wishfull thinking to say that it will be sub 14 seconds (and if it isn't, I'm selling it and getting an EVO IV):shock:

.

You should be able to get a flat 14 possible high 13 with your car, if you get the launch right.
I ran my flat 14@106mph with only 171Kws@wheels, in full street trim and weighing in at 1638kgs without me in it.

You should be able to get a flat 14 possible high 13 with your car, if you get the launch right.
I ran my flat 14@106mph with only 171Kws@wheels, in full street trim and weighing in at 1638kgs without me in it.


Can't wait to give it a go. Look like Meh's 13.8 time is the one to beat though. And Dave's too, but I think he did those on slicks?

Must admit, I'm more into circuits myself not just the straight line stuff. But it's all good!


.

Can't wait to give it a go. Look like Meh's 13.8 time is the one to beat though. And Dave's too, but I think he did those on slicks?

Must admit, I'm more into circuits myself not just the straight line stuff. But it's all good!

.

Just remember you, blake and dave are in the same class now. That is the forced/chemical induction class.

Both blake and dave can limit wheelspin thru; in blakes case not using NOS or in daves case alot of boost until they have traction, whereas a supercharged engine like yours has boost from the word go and cant have it limited until traction is reached.

Just remember your trap speed is a good sign of the horsepower your car is making. My car did 106mph with 171Kws@wheels, Blakes did 104mph with a unknown power figure and i think Daves did 120mph with 300Kws@wheels.

Your alot like me, id rather do circuit racing than drags anyday, thats why i wont take weight out of my car and fit slicks just to do drags.

Your alot like me, id rather do circuit racing than drags anyday, thats why i wont take weight out of my car and fit slicks just to do drags.

bingo!

any car can go straight, but its the twisties that get tricky.....

Just remember you, blake and dave are in the same class now. That is the forced/chemical induction class.

Just remember your trap speed is a good sign of the horsepower your car is making. My car did 106mph with 171Kws@wheels, Blakes did 104mph with a unknown power figure and i think Daves did 120mph with 300Kws@wheels.

Your alot like me, id rather do circuit racing than drags anyday, thats why i wont take weight out of my car and fit slicks just to do drags.


blakes got 162kwatw on a certain dyno but on others it has read higher.... i wished i had forced induction....

blakes got 162kwatw on a certain dyno but on others it has read higher.... i wished i had forced induction....

BINGO! Sorry fellas, but all this talk of dyno readings is actually pretty pointless due to there being to many variables. For one thing, a Dyno in Canberra in middle of winter will probably produce a different result to a Dyno in Darwin in the middle of summer. I could put my stock KJ2 on a dyno and get 200kw at the wheels if I fiddled with the setup. All that said, you can get a pretty good idea of the power via the performance figures, after you factor in the weight, gearing and what not. Now to keep my ears open for a supercharged Ralliart.

BINGO! Sorry fellas, but all this talk of dyno readings is actually pretty pointless due to there being to many variables. For one thing, a Dyno in Canberra in middle of winter will probably produce a different result to a Dyno in Darwin in the middle of summer. I could put my stock KJ2 on a dyno and get 200kw at the wheels if I fiddled with the setup. All that said, you can get a pretty good idea of the power via the performance figures, after you factor in the weight, gearing and what not. Now to keep my ears open for a supercharged Ralliart.


omg.... finally, someone who understands how dyno's work!!!

everyone knows that ,...

but i dont care who u are u cannot make 160 atws standard, his car is obviously very fast, no magna on a day with all the right variables on a particulkar day will get close to that.

same with jasons 240 atws magna... ppl who have slower cars will just say " oh dyno wasnt right" .. at the end of the day dyno differences only really differ maybe 10 kw's ...give or take ..and magnas are not turbo's ( most:P) so the weather is not so much an issue aswell ..

so what im trying to say is that yeah dyno's are not 100% accurate but they are 95% accurate so it IS a good gauge for power output for certain cars ... but just take notice of the first 2 numbers and dont worry bout the smaller digits ... thats how i see it anyways

everyone knows that ,...

but i dont care who u are u cannot make 160 atws standard, his car is obviously very fast, no magna on a day with all the right variables on a particulkar day will get close to that.

same with jasons 240 atws magna... ppl who have slower cars will just say " oh dyno wasnt right" .. at the end of the day dyno differences only really differ maybe 10 kw's ...give or take ..and magnas are not turbo's ( most:P) so the weather is not so much an issue aswell ..

so what im trying to say is that yeah dyno's are not 100% accurate but they are 95% accurate so it IS a good gauge for power output for certain cars ... but just take notice of the first 2 numbers and dont worry bout the smaller digits ... thats how i see it anyways

jamie dude. i can get a stock 1968 VW Beetle reading 350kw atw, just by ***kin around with the dyno and settings....... how is that 95% accurate?

a dyno gives you the ability to gauge the approximate power that a car is putting out, but it depends on the variables that are plugged into it. readouts shouldnt be taken as gospel, cos then you're just fooling yourself. also, think about how many different brands, and different types of dyno's...... you think none of them differ at all from each other?

the only way to accurately gauge who has the most power (for comparisons sake), would be for everyone to run their cars on the same dyno, on the same day, with the same settings. then that way everyone is conforming to the same variables.

but if u pay $50 to have ur car dyno'd they aint gonna have the setting all wrong r they ?

but take in all thew variables and u could see about 10kwish difference through different dyno's and different days ....

so thats what i mean about only take the first to numbers int oconsideration when ur comapring

for example
132 kw --->130
134 kw --->130
137 kw--->140
193 kw--->190
180 kw--->180

thats very genralised i know, but if a car reads hi on a dyno it generally is because it has a higher out put.. ur not going to have a low powered car ( below 200kw's) and have a 40kw difference at the wheels simple cos it was on a different day or on a different PROFESSIONAL dyno, yeah maybe 10 kw differnece.. id probably bet on that

so what im saying is it is a high pwer figure for a magna, regardless of what dyno he went to as the the difference it could be out either way by say 10 kw's still makes it a very quick car ..

very much agree that dyno's are not 100% accurate but they do give a GOOD gauge as to how much power ur car has,

its much the same as using a G-tech, its never going to be 100% perfect but if u set it up right it will give a figure that gives a good indication on 1/4mile time ... 0-100 time etc

so i do agree with u that ppl put to much weight on dyno charts, but i also think other ppl are to quick to disregard a dyno figure if someone pulls a high number.

dyno's are gay!!

that is all. lol

Thats why Dyno Dynamics dyno's at certain workshops have 'Shootout Mode', which means they have additional sensors hooked up in the dyno room that takes into account the temperature, etc, etc and modifies the readings accordingly - so you can do it at different temperatures/locations/etc and get a consistent reading. I think it puts some kind of serial number at the bottom of the printout to proove that it hasn't been screwed with either.

dyno's are gay!!

that is all. lol
i'm with old mate here!!!

Where i was usually getting my car tuned i got 154kw then got 161kw after another mod. I then took off my CAI for the factory setup, took it to another dyno at at first got 136kw, then retuned to 139kw - And the car runs no differently.

Who cares what figure you get, as long as the tune and performance is what you want to achieve

Here's something interesting to read, includes crap on shootout mode

http://www.xspeed.com.au/tech_features.php?tech_id=19

i'm with old mate here!!!

Where i was usually getting my car tuned i got 154kw then got 161kw after another mod. I then took off my CAI for the factory setup, took it to another dyno at at first got 136kw, then retuned to 139kw - And the car runs no differently.

Who cares what figure you get, as long as the tune and performance is what you want to achieve

Exactly, even though i use the same roller dyno everytime my cars been dynoed there will always be slight differences.

Thats why when i built my first engine up for my car i got it engine dynoed and got 208kws@flywheel (later ran 171.2kws@wheels on roller dyno) so when i built up this "new" engine i once again had my engine engine dynoed and it pulled 301kws@flywheel (later ran 244Kws@wheels on roller dyno)

*same engine dyno and roller dyno was used at all times.

You can workout the power difference between roller dyno and engine dyno, as far as im concerned outright power doesnt mean sh*t if its an absoulte dog to drive on the street and around a racetrack.
Im just glad my car is sweet to drive on the street if needed and is absolutely great when wound out to max revs and that is all that matters to me. :D

jamie dude. i can get a stock 1968 VW Beetle reading 350kw atw, just by ***kin around with the dyno and settings.......

What you're saying is just pointless in life.
Sure if you pay the dyno guy you can get 3 million kw out of a bettle.

What's your point?


I could make a tape measure that shows I'm 7'9"
I could pay the timing guys to run 9.9 in my stock TE
Osafa Powell could pay the timing dudes to run 100m in 8 seconds
(...) it goes on


A dyno is a very sophisticated piece of equipment that has to be calibrated correctly to give accurate readings - just like 100 other useful things we rely on every day of our lives.

At the end of the day we need technical measurements and specifications to compare various things from all over the world.
We use sophisticated equipment to measure all of this.
That fact that these measurements can be manipulated makes them no less useful.

Moral: This is complex machinery that must be operated correctly to achieve accurate results.

*Note: None of this takes into account you can tune a car for max kw that's a dog to drive. (ie original S2000)

-Dan

Exactly, even though i use the same roller dyno everytime my cars been dynoed there will always be slight differences.

Thats why when i built my first engine up for my car i got it engine dynoed and got 208kws@flywheel (later ran 171.2kws@wheels on roller dyno) so when i built up this "new" engine i once again had my engine engine dynoed and it pulled 301kws@flywheel (later ran 244Kws@wheels on roller dyno)

*same engine dyno and roller dyno was used at all times.

You can workout the power difference between roller dyno and engine dyno, as far as im concerned outright power doesnt mean sh*t if its an absoulte dog to drive on the street and around a racetrack.
Im just glad my car is sweet to drive on the street if needed and is absolutely great when wound out to max revs and that is all that matters to me. :D

Yeah, the absolute accuracy of dynos has to be questioned when the power difference between your flywheel and wheels was 37 Kw on your first engine and 57Kw on your second. Presumably nothing had changed with your drivetrain and therefore theoretically should have been exactly the same because drivetrain loss is a constant not a variable.

And I agree, peak power means diddly squat to me too. Sustained, tractable torque and power are what it's about.


.

Yeah, the absolute accuracy of dynos has to be questioned when the power difference between your flywheel and wheels was 37 Kw on your first engine and 57Kw on your second. Presumably nothing had changed with your drivetrain and therefore theoretically should have been exactly the same because drivetrain loss is a constant not a variable.
.

To use Jason's example figures:
Drivetrain loss is 17% with the first engine and 19% with the second engine.
(I'd say that's close enough to be called a constant)

The loss to the drivetrain is a constant percentage of power NOT a constant absolute figure.

As an example (made up numbers)
A 50kw Barina loses 20% to drivetrain which is a 10kw loss.

If a 200kw magna loses 20% to drivetrain thats a 40kw loss.

It is the proportion of power lost that is a constant not the absolute figure.

-Dan

but if u pay $50 to have ur car dyno'd they aint gonna have the setting all wrong r they ?



you are missing my point.......

my point is: dyno figures cannot be taken as gospel because it is so easy to fiddle with settings to get different results.

hence statements similar to (for example): "Mr X (who used dyno A) got 180kw but Mr Y (who used dyno B) got 210kw, so clearly Mr Y has the more powerful car!" - are not correct as it depends on previously mentioned variables and setting on the individual dyno.


and Grecy: im just trying to point out the inaccuracies with directly comparing different dyno readings from different cars on different days. NOT paying someone to make my car read 1000kw.

im not having a go at all the boys with high dyno power figures, but rather im trying to make ppl realise that just because a graph states you are making X kw, doesnt actually mean you are physically making X kw. (you may even actually be making more!)

dynos are a great tool to measure the power increases/decreases for each of the mods you are putting out, but even then they can be innacurate. ie TZABOY's previous post

- not hatin, just edumacating

oh ffs some people are thick. A dyno is only accurate in the sence it is consistant with itself. Dyno from one shop and another dyno from a shop accross the road though are more than likely to give different readings to eachother at the same time. Ontop of that the readings are very likely to be extremely different.

Jase's car is a typical example. one dyno shop he went to reads out 161kw. another dyno shop reads out 134kw. You could prob run the car all day and still get an accurate reading for that dyno (meaning that the dyno that read 161kw will consistantly read about the same and the 134kw dyno will read about the same all day too) However those two dynos still give totally different readings to eachother.

Also if you think drivetrain loss is a % you would be wrong. My car standard read about 95kw atw. it had the 155kw motor. Now my car makes 168kw at the wheels. That would mean my car now would make 274kw at the engine.

The maths behind it: 95/155 = 0.613
168/0.613 = 274

Whereas 155-95 = 60
168+60=228
228kw would sound a lot more realistic.

']
Also if you think drivetrain loss is a % you would be wrong.

Drivetrain loss is a percentage!!! The more power you put through a driveline the more power you will lose before it reaches the wheels. This is because more heat and friction (among others) is created causing greater losses in energy.

You can't say your driveline loses 60kW irregardless of your engines power.

I was resisting wading into this, but I'm with wtchme, drivetrain losses aren't a percentage, yes they can and will vary but only to a point. A gearbox will draw x amount of energy as a max, there is no set minimum, you keep putting more power through it and it won't keep increasing loss, eventually it will just break.

It comes down to the elasticity of the metal the gears(and drivetrain) are comprised of, the gears will flex minutely and return to their original state, once flexed beyond this they will stay flexed and or break. This flexibility is what determines the amount of power loss variation they will produce. Also friction will not keep increasing as the gears are lubricated and the oil will provide x friction factor which will vary with heat, once at full temperature to increase the gears friction you would have to penetrate the film of oil, which would equal a gearbox failure.

The main factor behind increasing power loss due to power is in tyres, sidewall flex under load but once again there will be a point where you reach the maximum tyre deviation and loss will not increase anymore.

If you think about it, power loss is in the form of heat, so if you have a car with 1000hp at the wheels, and you assume it has 20% power loss, 200hp, thats a ****load of heat, where does it go in a gearbox housing the same size as a car with 200hp total ? you would have to have a gearbox oil cooler the same size as a radiator and a gearbox sump significantly bigger than the ~2l they run standard.

Both Bosch and Dynamic test systems Australia in testing with Borg Warner have come to the conclusion that drivetrain losses minus tyres vary only 2% on average between loaded and unloaded situations, meaning that running in a free rev environment and a loaded environment the power loss will only deviate a few horsepower, this is because the friction is fixed and the drivetrain doesn't have much flex, try to flex it too hard and it will break.

Good work with the manual S/C, let us know how you go with your clutch, because I think even my near stock 3l needs a heavier pressure plate and your ralliarts' gonna have probably an extra 150nm :)

Matthius

Hmmm, seems like everyones not agreed on this. I would have thought drivetrain loss would be constant, ie, it would be pretty much the same for a given drivetrain, regardless of power output by the engine. But I could be wrong.

.

If drive train loss is a constant, say 60kW, what happens when your engine produces less than 60kW of power? What you are saying is that a stock factory car would be incapable of turning its wheels (even free spinning) unless it was producing at least 38% of its maximum power output.

so... ReallyArt... your car is supercharged hey?

how does it drive? do you care how much power its making at the wheels or are you just enjoying the fact that it has boost, and is making more power than stock?

If drive train loss is a constant, say 60kW, what happens when your engine produces less than 60kW of power? What you are saying is that a stock factory car would be incapable of turning its wheels (even free spinning) unless it was producing at least 38% of its maximum power output.

Exacttly, it cannot be a fixed ammount. You are not lifting a fixed weight that always requires the same ammount of force to shift.

The article bellow explains in great detail that power loss is a percentage and why.

From THIS (http://www.superstang.com/horsepower.htm) article:

So, if heat is power, then you can measure the amount of power by the dissipation of heat throughout a system. Have you ever wondered why you need a bigger radiator when your engine makes more power? Part of the reason is when you produce more horsepower you lose more energy through heat loss into radiator. How about why you start to need things like transmission coolers? Now we are starting to get to the root of my argument on why power loss is based on percentages –vs- a static value.



so... ReallyArt... your car is supercharged hey?

Yes back on topic:P

so... ReallyArt... your car is supercharged hey?

how does it drive? do you care how much power its making at the wheels or are you just enjoying the fact that it has boost, and is making more power than stock?

oh and that gorgeous supercharger whine???

i cant beleive people are actually arguing against drivetrain loss being a percentage. I will accept that it might not be linear (eg, power loss % decreasing slightly at an increasing rate, with more power etc) but it cannot be a constant.

WTCHME, the fact that your car produced 95kW@the wheels proves nothing except that that dyno was WAY out. 59% drivetrain loss for a FWD manual? I think NOT! lol And if it was the same dyno again where you got 168kW, then that also goes against your theory that the same dyno will be consistant...

but anyway, who cares, it runs 14.4 last time you took it down the 1/4, that is a more telling stat than a dyno figure. It would no doubt run faster now, but just how much faster will not be determined by a dyno, it will be determined the next time you take it down the strip.

If drive train loss is a constant, say 60kW, what happens when your engine produces less than 60kW of power? What you are saying is that a stock factory car would be incapable of turning its wheels (even free spinning) unless it was producing at least 38% of its maximum power output.

To quote myself
"A gearbox will draw x amount of energy as a max, there is no set minimum, you keep putting more power through it and it won't keep increasing loss, eventually it will just break.
"

Matthius

To quote myself
"A gearbox will draw x amount of energy as a max, there is no set minimum, you keep putting more power through it and it won't keep increasing loss, eventually it will just break.
"

Matthius

Ok, so the gearbox can waste less energy.. and the amount of energy it wastes is proportional to the amount of power being produced by the engine?

Obviously there's a certain amount of torque that will cause a gearbox to go bang, but I'm not talking about that at the moment.

What i meant was that saying power is constant loss is more accurate than a percentage. Power loss isnt linear. Its a root curve. Meaning it increases to a point it wont lose anymore power till it breaks.

Anyhow isnt the argument that dynos from different places arent comparable? the 95kw reading actually was accurate as it has been similar with another manual magna tested there. Also to note my 14.4 second time was with 136kw at the wheels not 168.

I was dynoing my push bike this one day, and i only got 2kw's atw because i was "out of tune"lol

time to get over this whole dyno gheyness thing - everyone to the drag strip:D

Ok, so the gearbox can waste less energy.. and the amount of energy it wastes is proportional to the amount of power being produced by the engine?

Obviously there's a certain amount of torque that will cause a gearbox to go bang, but I'm not talking about that at the moment.

Yep, but the trick is 90% of the time the box and drivetrain will be at 100% loss from the factory power outputs, if they made it bigger and heavier all they would get for their efforts is more loss and more weight. The interesting thing with loss is quite often a set of different tyres can make as much loss difference as a diff change.

Also you will get different losses in each gear of the gearbox, the bigger the ratio change between input and output the more the loss you will see.

Matthius

Re drivetrain loss:

Read this (http://www.superstang.com/horsepower.htm) page.

When you don't understand it, read this (http://www.superstang.com/horsepower.htm#Explanation) part again.
And again.

I'm a fully qualified engineer and I still have trouble getting my head around it.

-Dan

you are missing my point.......
and Grecy: im just trying to point out the inaccuracies with directly comparing different dyno readings from different cars on different days. NOT paying someone to make my car read 1000kw.

im not having a go at all the boys with high dyno power figures, but rather im trying to make ppl realise that just because a graph states you are making X kw, doesnt actually mean you are physically making X kw. (you may even actually be making more!)

dynos are a great tool to measure the power increases/decreases for each of the mods you are putting out, but even then they can be innacurate. ie TZABOY's previous post

I agree partially.
A dyno is not 100% accurate.
No measuring instrument is (even the length of a mm changed not that long ago. See: wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system))

Measuring the turning force on some rollers is actually not that difficult.
It measures turning force, speed and time and uses a very simple calculation.
A dyno was designed and built for that exact purpose.

When used correctly a dyno is an accurate measuring device.

I think what we're all arguing is that dynos are a good piece of equipment, but people don't know how to use them properly. That is why shootout mode was invented.

-Dan

Maybe we should give up on talking about dynos in this thread, talk about a hijack! What I want to know is, what's it like to drive and how bad on fuel? And is there any tread left on the tyres after this morning's nice and cool temperature, my wagon liked it.

Maybe we should give up on talking about dynos in this thread, talk about a hijack! What I want to know is, what's it like to drive and how bad on fuel? And is there any tread left on the tyres after this morning's nice and cool temperature, my wagon liked it.

Fuel consumption increased by 1 litre per 100 around town (from 10.5 to 11.5) and highway was 8.5 and is now around 9.3

I mentioned it somewhere back in this thread but I think it's forever lostlol




.

Fuel consumption increased by 1 litre per 100 around town (from 10.5 to 11.5) and highway was 8.5 and is now around 9.3

I mentioned it somewhere back in this thread but I think it's forever lostlol

.

I use a lot more in the AWD. But then again it is all short city trips and I drive the car pretty hard. Country I avg 10.5 - 12 litres / 100k depending on road type (ie more curves more fuel cause I drive it harder) City I avg between 15 - 18.5 litres / 100ks. (this is a real killer as 98 octane fuel is around the $1.50 mark in Sydney on a good day.)

As for tyres on the AWD I have replaced the front 2 at 14000kms, and the back 2 at 21500 (this was due to one having a puncture - but they only had a couple of thousand ks in them anyhow) So a full set already at 24500kms although 2 were due to puncture, still goes through front tyres quicker but this is significantly due to camber (need to get a camber kit).

I think you will go through your front tyres pretty quicker Really Art. and you do have nicer roads in Canberra and less traffic compared to Sydney so I can understand your fuel consumption being a lot different.

I think its great being FWD with boost its a great feeling driving along and hear something odd coming from under the hood and people look at you going WTF lol

I enjoy driving my magna more than my GTR around town

how much boost can the suckers handle before they go bang on a safe tune?

Fuel consumption increased by 1 litre per 100 around town (from 10.5 to 11.5) and highway was 8.5 and is now around 9.3

I mentioned it somewhere back in this thread but I think it's forever lostlol




.
I thought I saw a mention, sort of skimmed through all the dyno stuff. I take it you have a nice commute then, my wagon get's about 12.5 running around Queanbeyan and out to Braddon every day with the wife driving.