hey guys i need some install help.

at the moment im running a pioneer 8650 hu.
http://www.pioneer.com.au/car_entertainment/cdtuners/dehp8650mp/index.html

i have 2 of these pioneer 306c subs in 2 seperate boxes. it doesnt really bother me if i only run one, but 2s goodi guess:)
http://www.pioneer.com.au/car_entertainment/subwoofers/tsw306c/index.html

im thinking about running these pioneer splits inthe front.
http://www.pioneer.com.au/car_entertainment/speakers/tsc160r/index.html

now, amp choices, i was thinking a a pioneer 6200F 4 channel amp, although that will supply jsut enough power to the front splits, after bridging the 2 other channels it will underpower the sub.

so i thought i could run one of these pioneer 2 channel amps for the front splits
http://www.pioneer.com.au/car_entertainment/amplifiers/gm3200t/index.html

and then this monoblock for the sub.. or 2
http://www.pioneer.com.au/car_entertainment/amplifiers/gm7200m/index.html

are they going to be adequately powerfull, the splits are 60watts RMS and that 2 channel is 2 * 60watts RMS, so that should be fine?

with the monoblock i have no idea, cause im not too sure on nominal ratings? is taht just RMS?

as for the monoblock it says 360 watts RMS in one section and 250 watts RMS in another. how does that apply to subs and the such, cause the sub is 400 nominal? and if nominal is RMS, then thats underpowered yea?

am i going to need a capacitor? i dont particuly know what it does. i plan on dropping into adelaide pro sound tomorrow maybe, so yea.

oh and im going after the pioneer stuff cause i can get it cheap. but if you you think i would be better to get other things let me know :D

excuse my ignorance:) :oops:

thanks fellas.

wooley

You wont need a capacitor, they're bad mmkay?
lol ok now we have that out of the way.
RMS/continous power/nominal its all the same sh!t.
Those 2 ratings (250/360) are at different ohms, depending on the subs if they can run at 2ohm, but they are probably only 4 ohm subs (meaning 250w rms). Underpowering the subs isn't such a bad thing, as long as you dont let them clip (distort).

May i recommend The Jaycar Amps mate
4x 100WRMS On ebay is about $220
And the 800W Monoblock is about $270 on ebay

Bit better bang for ya buck;)

You wont need a capacitor, they're bad mmkay?
lol ok now we have that out of the way.
RMS/continous power/nominal its all the same sh!t.
Those 2 ratings (250/360) are at different ohms, depending on the subs if they can run at 2ohm, but they are probably only 4 ohm subs (meaning 250w rms). Underpowering the subs isn't such a bad thing, as long as you dont let them clip (distort).

ok, wanna explain what a capacitor does though? :D lol
and how does the 2 ohms and 4 ohms thing work? i know about all that stuff from physics but how does it apply with this?



']May i recommend The Jaycar Amps mate
4x 100WRMS On ebay is about $220
And the 800W Monoblock is about $270 on ebay

Bit better bang for ya buck;)

i dont need a 4 channel though? and im getting the pioneer 2 channel cheaper than that. and the monoblock about that price:)

ok, wanna explain what a capacitor does though? :D lol
and how does the 2 ohms and 4 ohms thing work? i know about all that stuff from physics but how does it apply with this?




i dont need a 4 channel though? and im getting the pioneer 2 channel cheaper than that. and the monoblock about that price:)

They also have some really good 2 channels...
Capacitor AFAIK stores power, and when there is a loss in current (?) the capacitor kicks in supplying that extra current, to stop drops in power, from whatever it could be.
But you wont need this on a small system....only on systems with over maybe 1500WRMS this will be needed...

Ohms....hmm....It was explained to me like if you had a small hose....compared to a big hose.....Less resistance (2ohm)(bigger hose) means more power, more resistance, (4ohm)(smaller hose) means slightly less power, but at a safer temperature.(?)

I run both my subs @ 2ohm and there fine.

But if your upgrading, consider a 4 channel, even if you dont use the extra channels, there always there in case you decide to get rear speakers.

Sorry about the crappy explaination!

']They also have some really good 2 channels...
Capacitor AFAIK stores power, and when there is a loss in current (?) the capacitor kicks in supplying that extra current, to stop drops in power, from whatever it could be.
But you wont need this on a small system....only on systems with over maybe 1500WRMS this will be needed...

Ohms....hmm....It was explained to me like if you had a small hose....compared to a big hose.....Less resistance (2ohm)(bigger hose) means more power, more resistance, (4ohm)(smaller hose) means slightly less power, but at a safer temperature.(?)

I run both my subs @ 2ohm and there fine.

But if your upgrading, consider a 4 channel, even if you dont use the extra channels, there always there in case you decide to get rear speakers.

Sorry about the crappy explaination!

oh yea thats right cross sections of cables and stuff, it all comes back form physics now:P

yea if i wsa gonna amp my rears id probs jsut buy another 2 channel though, i dont like the idea of too big amps, visually painfull on the eyes, haha, big amp with a small amp looks cool... hehehe :D

Okay... i got here as fast as I could.

Capacitors: Forget them. Unless they are for bling value, don't use them.

Why you ask?

Okay, the main reason people use capacitors is to help 'stiffen' the power supply to their amplifiers. Usually they get voltage drops with bass hits that cause their headlights to dim. A capacitor stores power just like a battery, but can supply it faster. Hence when you get the bass hit, the capacitor can supply that extra voltage.

So that's a good thing right?

Well actually, yes but no. Lets have a look why there is a volatge drop in the first place.

From electrical theory, which I am sure you know, you will know that Power (Watts) = Potential Difference (Volts) * Current (Amps). So we will say you have this monoblock amp that is rated at 500WRMSx1@4ohms. To work out the current needed for this amp, you take the power and divide by the voltage (so 500W/12V=41.67A - but this is an average figure). Then take a look at the fusing. Your Pioneer Amp has 2x30A blade fuses (60A total)

Now, lets just say you hooked this amp up with 8GA power cabling. Crappy 8GA has a current rating @12V of something like 55Amps. Stinger might be a bit more, say 60A.

The problems come in when the amp needs to amplify a big bass hit very loud. It may actually need for an instant, 64Amps @ 12V. Now it can grab some power from it's internal capacitors, but then needs to get power from the cabling. Obviously, 64A is only for a fraction of a second, not enough for your fuses to blow. Then it needs a good 60A to replenish the power in the internal capacitors, and continue playing music.

60A is more than the cable can handle, so how do we get enough power down the cable? Well, if Power (Watts) is constant, to get a higher amount of Current (Amps), we have to lower the voltage. And that's when your headlights dim.

Capacitors attempt to be a bandaid to the problem, however, you still hook it up with 8GA power wiring so the problem is still there!

The only way to fix it is to run higher rated cabling (4 guage or even 2 or 1/0 guage) to your amps so that it can carry enough current at the correct voltage to feed your amps with the required power.

Capacitors do serve a useful function if you are drawing heaps of current, but you would need to have a good 0 guage main cable, distribution blocked down to 4 guage and run that to your amps, which is more like 110-120 amps.

Capacitors also introduce resistance to your power supply to your amps, once they discharge a bit the can have quite a measurable resistance in your line. Also they are prone to explode when shorted out, especially in accidents. If you get one, you really MUST install a fire extinguisher or two.

Basically, if you give your amps nice fat cables, good grounds, and make sure you add a extra path for the power to get back to the battery from the vehicle ground as the OEM one cannot handle that much current. Run a cable equal size of your main cable from the body of the car back to the negative terminal,

Once that is all done, you won't need a capcitor because all your problems will be fixed.

----------------------------

Okay, sorry for the length of that.

Resistance in relation to speaker wiring can be confusing. The simple way is to remember it is all based on the number of unique paths the amp output can take to get back to the other amp terminal.

A single 4 ohm voice coil has one coil only, so one path it can take. So it's just 4 ohms.

Two Single voicecoil subs can be wired two ways, Series or parallel. If wired in series on the same electrical path, you add them together, so it would be 8 ohms impedence. Car amps don't like 8 ohms. In this case you would wire the two voicecoils together in parallel, so 4 ohms / 2 paths = 2 ohms. This is what does people's heads in. But if you think about it, two paths means double the current can flow, hence it is the same as putting half the resistance in.

Dual voice coils get more difficult, and 2 ohm DVC can get tricky. But if you know your Physics/electronics, then just think of them as resistors in a circuit and you will be fine.

-------------------------------

Okay, about the subs. They are actually 400WRMS 'Nominal' (WTF that means I have no idea... trust Pioneer to come up with confusion). So yeah, 400WRMS AFAIK.

Now, that particular monoblock puts out 500W 'Peak' @ 14.4V (engine running) into a 2 ohm speaker impedence load. So your two 400W subs wired in parallel will do a 2 ohm load. However, the real RMS output of that amp is 360WRMS @ 2 ohms, so each speaker will only get 180WRMS.

Now, that might not really be enough, especially in a small sealed box (they recommend 35L for these subs, not 30L like most 12" subs). If you were to put these in a 30L box, they could handle more power - 500-550W is my guess. So I think that amp is a bit underpowered. Even one of these amps PER SUB would only give 250W through each, but I doubt it would be cost effective.

I really think you need a bigger amp... one that does at least 500WRMS into 2 ohms at 12V. The GM-D510M Pioneer amp does that... and would be cheaper than buying two of the smaller ones I am sure.

The Jaycar monoblock does 800W into 2 ohms, and is probably cheaper than the pioneer amp. That way you would get your 400WRMS through each sub, which is their rating. While I understand your logic in going "All-Pioneer', sometimes this is not the best option.


Sorry for the mammoth post. Hope it helps.


TUFFY> You stuffed it up dude, you mixed up my power cable (hose) analogy with the impedence stuff..... but a good attempt nonethless! Certainly gave me a smile.

I was also going to mention that yes, caps look good and have become more of a visual thing that useful, just use a second battery. A car battery is basically the same thing as a capacitor, but batteries are more efficient in storing energy and cheaper too maybe? :)

Just my 2 cents worth.

you're gonna kill me mitsimonsta but i explained all that to him over msn last night lmao!
But tis all good none the less. I wonder if you could create an FAQ for the car audio forum and sticky it? Alot of useful info in that post :).
Also dont forget that the dimming of the lights can occur on cars with smaller alternators that cannot produce the required amps. This would be the only place i could see using an alternator would be needed. But would be much more beneficial to just upgrade the alternator.