Hi guys,
First post here we go:

Specs:
93 TR Auto Sedan, 2.6L 4cyl - Unmodified. 160000km (apparently regularly serviced before i got it (have my doubts))

The Story:
Bought the car a few months back.
When i bought it the previous owners told me they recently had a bad tank of fuel through (so bad the engine stopped), but had replaced fuel filter, and had lines and tank flushed, no probs since - my first thought was to have the injector filters replaced (and did so) just to sleep better at night.

Anyway, in the last month, ive started to have several probs, and am not sure if its one thing at fault, or perhaps a combo (maybe still related to the bad fuel?).
Symptoms:
1. Rough Idling - raised it a couple hundred, which makes it bearable, but buggers the consumption big time.
2. Touchy Acceleration - damn thing isnt sure whether it wants to go sometimes. Also in the acceleration (particularly when cold, but occasionally when hot) ill suffer from a preignition in cyl4, resulting in the ECU having a fit with my timing (also good for acceleration when the revs get retarded on me).
3. S..H...U...D..D....E...R....: As long as the revs are kept up a tad the car runs relatively smoothly. I find that around the 2 - 2.5k revs the thing sometimes threatens to shake itself to pieces.

There are a couple smaller symptoms, but those 3 are the biggies.
Economy is generally the same (really bad) whether im giving it some, or being a grandma.
Ive found BP fuel gives me the best economy, and the car detests mobil fuel - about 100km less per tank (considering im only getting 280 - 300, thats considerable!).

My work so far:
Ive replaced air filter, had oil flushed and running a 10 40 FUCHS oil (copped a small oil leak from the head due to cleaning the junk up - trying to get motivated to replace the gasket and have head remachined), water jacket flushed, and the throttle body and fuel rail cleaned.
Plugs and leads have been replaced with low resistance leads, and hotter plugs.

More Stuff:
I havent touched injectors further, but expect a good clean will help - considered getting remachined injectors, but at $80 a pop, thought id pass for a little longer)
I havent gone near the distributor yet, but i do expect that ill have to replace the cap and rotor.
I am sure it needs a timing check, and clear the ECU at the same time, but i dont want to do this just yet if i need to have the fault codes checked.
Nothing to do with alignment or balance etc - all been checked.
Valves perhaps?


Any thoughs on what might be the prob would be handy :D. Oh my just heard the clock chime midninght, supposed to be at work at 6am - no chance ^_^

To reset ECU, disconnect battery for a minimum of 30 minutes, i leave it off for an hour just to be sure:)

i dont think trs have fault codes but then again i might be wrong...... have you checked the mountings just a thought and the plugs

What position is the timing set on the distributor? I've seen a couple of magna's (another TP, and a couple of TR/TS's) that had the timing on the distributor set far too ratarded. This led to some of the symptons you have experienced. The fuel economy seems to go really bad when this isn't set correctly, and you have a loss of power etc. THIS IS A BIG THING! There is an adjusting bolt and nut on the base of the distributor, loosed the bolt and the distributor can rotate clockwise/anticlockwise. Make a pencil mark where it is at the moment, then move it up on the holder to advance (move distributor anticlockwise) or down to retard (move distributor clockwise). If you do it with the engine running you can hear the difference when you move it. The cars that I've seen have worked best when there's been around a centimetre? I think of free space at the top of the slide where the bolt goes through. If its got a lot of space at the top or hardly any then thats probably 3/4 of your problems right there. Run 95 octane in it if you can get it at a reasonable price (like Liberty/United/independents etc) as the Astron engine seems to love it. With the knock sensors in the TR you can get at least 102kw up from 98kw on 95 octane (according to the book) and better economy of course. With the TN/TP's they don't have the knock sensors, people usually have it advanced like the TR's do with premium fuel and just run premium through them, they get at least around 96kw stock then (apparently). Despite the TR's etc having more power and torque, their actual power and economy apparently didn't change that much, a TP on premium slightly advanced at 96kw seems to be able to beat a TR at 98KW on standard fuel. A TP on premium seems to be about equal to a TR on premium. It may be a power/weight ratio thing, but the above is what I have heard and I've seen it seems to be true.

Have you checked all your vacuum lines? Have you checked the valve (isn't it the PCV?) on the righthand top of the rocker cover. If the valve is stuck apparently that can stuff up your fuel economy, and it does need cleaning. It has probably never been done... Easiest way is to do it with each oil change. This is probably more that it needs to be done but if you keep it nice and clean there won't be any problems with it :D .This can be unscrewed and cleaned in petrol or hot soapy water (lots of dishwashing liquid, just ensure its dry if you use soapy water before you put it back in, and remember to rinse it!) When you shake it, you should hear the ball bearing inside move very easily, as if its free inside a container. If you're game, you should be able to blow freely through one end and not at all through the other. Also make sure that hose isn't worn or cracked either.

Spark plug leads in the correct order :bowrofl: ? just kidding :)

Grounding points nice and clean? Make sure the terminals on the battery are clean. Take off the negative terminal for example, undo the screws and take out the wire. Ensure the insude contact point is clean and that the wire is nice and shiny and not corroded. This point is missed by so many people, the same applies for the positive terminal (do them separately so you don't get the wires mixed up... Ouch! You can clean the terminals in vinegar, and for the wires get a small jar (like the small long masterfoods spice jar that like the chilli, parprika ones) and fill it with vinegar also. Put the wire in and rest the jar somewhere where the wire's corrosion can be removed by the vinegar. Remember to clean well with fresh water (in a another container!!) at least with two lots of fresh water, and the same with the terminals.

The above sounds may sound stupid, but what makes the terminals dirty also gets inside the connector thing and corrode the wires and connector quite bad. Also with wet and dry paper clean the earthing points and wires around the engine bay. There is a wire that runs from the plenum to the back of the engine bay for example, make sure points like that and where they connect (and the bolt/screw can be lightly sanded). Car should run better if those points were dirty. Ensure the air intake sensor plug is plugged in correctly and snuggly. Unplug that and your car will do exactly what you are saying! ie run like crap.

Ensure the dipstick and oil filler cap fit snugly and seal. This affects the cars performance (apparently), don't worry about second hand ones, brand new ones would be more trustworthy! Only if the dipstick is loose fitting or there's oil around the filler cap that you didn't put there!

The gases in the chamber are suppose to travel through that valve that should be cleaned, not out of the oil filler cap or dipstick. All in all the above costs only a few dollars and may fix your problems.

Cheers all,
Ive got the day off tomorrow, so ill have a tinker and fiddle with a few bits mentioned.

Thanks TUFFTR, ive reset it before no probs, might do again after my tinker.

Alpine, mountings appear fine (if im thinking same ones :D), fault codes well, ive had people say they do, and people say they dont. Be curious to hook it up to one the computer units and see if it has anything lol.

burfadel ill check the timing for sure. I know it needs a tune pretty badly, but ive still got the general feeling injectors and perhaps throttle body need a damn good clean.
Ill get my trusty timing light out and play around a little, just like fooling with my tuning on my model airplane, except the car doesnt fall as far if i get it wrong... right... right? hehehe.
This might add curiosity (perhaps is distributor) - The car runs extraordinarily BAD on premium. It really chokes on it.

Spark plug leads in the correct order ? just kidding
Ive seen this done on magna same as mine. Idled sorta ok, then when he gave it a rev, it kinda made a tinny sound and died. I suppose it would be easy enough to do considering the 3 and 4 plug leads are both 94's (got mine diff colours so i would never make the mistake after i saw it done).
edit: battery and connections are fine, ill check the neutral chassis connection and follow some positive line up a bit and see if anything corroded etc.

Anything else anyone can think of would be appreciated :D Ill let yas know how my tinkering goes in next few days (hoping to move house tomorrow so might be a little while till back online :bowrofl:).

Ta.

P.S. Car wouldnt start again the other day, turns out my positive lead to my starter motor had fallen off (glad was second thing i thought to have a look at after i cursed a probable neutral switch on the gearbox failing). Curious how it fell off though. It is a clip on, but its a DAMN tight fit.
More suprising was that the car was intact the following morning when i went to fix it up (expecting a slow tow home - given its auto).

If it runs worse on premium then it does sound like the timing is way off, far too retarded. Hopefully this has got to do with the distributor and not the chain, as the distributor is quick and easy!

Hmm, ive got no noise from the chain, and the chain guides and tensioners dont seem to be wearing out or anything.
Just on my way out to tinker so thought to check for replies before i did...

Symptoms:
1. Rough Idling - raised it a couple hundred, which makes it bearable, but buggers the consumption big time.
2. Touchy Acceleration - damn thing isnt sure whether it wants to go sometimes. Also in the acceleration (particularly when cold, but occasionally when hot) ill suffer from a preignition in cyl4, resulting in the ECU having a fit with my timing (also good for acceleration when the revs get retarded on me).
3. S..H...U...D..D....E...R....: As long as the revs are kept up a tad the car runs relatively smoothly. I find that around the 2 - 2.5k revs the thing sometimes threatens to shake itself to pieces.

There are a couple smaller symptoms, but those 3 are the biggies.
Economy is generally the same (really bad) whether im giving it some, or being a grandma.
Ive found BP fuel gives me the best economy, and the car detests mobil fuel - about 100km less per tank (considering im only getting 280 - 300, thats considerable!).

My work so far:
Ive replaced air filter, had oil flushed and running a 10 40 FUCHS oil (copped a small oil leak from the head due to cleaning the junk up - trying to get motivated to replace the gasket and have head remachined), water jacket flushed, and the throttle body and fuel rail cleaned.
Plugs and leads have been replaced with low resistance leads, and hotter plugs.




Hey mate, consider flushing the transmission oil, my tr had a bad shudder but once I did that it went away. Although the trans aint the best it actually goes alright.

With the idling it may be the TPS, mine had a vicious amount of gunk building up on it, mechanic showed me the old one and the new one, it idle sooo much smoother. ( It use to be at the lights the steering wheel and dash would vibrate! all gone now!)

I suggest just changing the dizzy Cap everytime you do the plus/leads its a cheap part to replace or at least inspect it to make sure it dosent have a crack, even the rotor.

I run my tr on the mobil premium and havent had a problem with it, I DO notice a difference when driving between regular and premium. I suggest trying them ALL out, I dont mind optimax either but not a fan of the BP prem.

good luck with it all

Havent thought about TPS.

Bleh sensors ^_^.
Why cant this be like my old mercedes, it had three sensors - the fuel gauge, oil pressure, and the speedo. Only the speedo worked :D. Then it was stolen :cry:.

Is there a run down on this site anywhere about sensor locations, and ways to test/clean them etc? Or am i asking a biggie lol.

OK, work so far today - Ripped off the PCV (easiest to get to), and wasnt bad all in all. Bit of oil deposits, but i chucked it in some ammonia for 30 seconds, and shiny like new. Rinsed a few times in soapy, and then fresh.

Then i had to go to the shop :(.

Havent thought about TPS.

Bleh sensors ^_^.
Why cant this be like my old mercedes, it had three sensors - the fuel gauge, oil pressure, and the speedo. Only the speedo worked :D. Then it was stolen :cry:.

Is there a run down on this site anywhere about sensor locations, and ways to test/clean them etc? Or am i asking a biggie lol.

OK, work so far today - Ripped off the PCV (easiest to get to), and wasnt bad all in all. Bit of oil deposits, but i chucked it in some ammonia for 30 seconds, and shiny like new. Rinsed a few times in soapy, and then fresh.

Then i had to go to the shop :(.


Ahh you will be suprised how much information is on here, about every topic.

Click Search then when the drop-down box comes down click ADVANCED SEARCH

simply type in the info your after 'TPS' 'Sensors'

I suggest using Ctrl and selecting Tech Torque and 2nd forums only so you only get info on your model.

good luck

Well i had a bit more of a dig around the engine, and found my dizzy cap has (will replace next couple days) a small crack on one side. Only 5mm long, but will replace post haste lol.
Also, rotor wasnt as bad as i thought, but will replace same time.

When ive done that ill reset my ECU and let it be a week while it reconfigures itself and look again at the cars performance.

Cheers guys, will let you know how it gets on in a week - 10 days :D.

Well it seems to be running a little smoother, but i havent been able to get at the car further as yet - raining on and off here (not a complaint lol).

OK guys ive had the new dizzy cap etc in a while now, replaced the coil yesterday (got around to it). Car is driving a little better, but still shudders its guts up - still need proper timing check done.
In the next month or two when ive finally moved house, ill book it in with my mate and have the injectors cleaned up, and the TB recleaned by someone i know will do a good job.
Depending on $$ at the time ill probably have the box serviced as well.

Cheers for help, ill let yas know how it goes.

OK guys ive had the new dizzy cap etc in a while now, replaced the coil yesterday (got around to it). Car is driving a little better, but still shudders its guts up - still need proper timing check done.
In the next month or two when ive finally moved house, ill book it in with my mate and have the injectors cleaned up, and the TB recleaned by someone i know will do a good job.
Depending on $$ at the time ill probably have the box serviced as well.

Cheers for help, ill let yas know how it goes.

Hey mate have you changed the fuel filter (i mean again) cause its possible that there could still be a bit more **** blocking it i had the same prob, put bad fuel in my car got injectors cleaned and fuel filter changed then about a month later it started playing up, changed the fuel filter again and been running like a dream since about 6 months ago

OK guys ive had the new dizzy cap etc in a while now, replaced the coil yesterday (got around to it). Car is driving a little better, but still shudders its guts up - still need proper timing check done.
In the next month or two when ive finally moved house, ill book it in with my mate and have the injectors cleaned up, and the TB recleaned by someone i know will do a good job.
Depending on $$ at the time ill probably have the box serviced as well.

Cheers for help, ill let yas know how it goes.

Hi M
If you are getting bad shuddering, it could be the common fault where water has entered the dist through the perished rubber covering the plug

This can cause excessive advanced timing similar to detonation, forcing the piston down while it is actually still on the way up

This can be serious - my advice is fix it asap

Barry

Why cant this be like my old mercedes, it had three sensors - the fuel gauge, oil pressure, and the speedo. Only the speedo worked . Then it was stolen .


Serious, someone stole yer speedo?

You do know that when setting the ignition timing on 2.6 tp-tr that you have to shunt the 2 terminals in the engine connector. Normally when a timing light is shone on the marks it will read about #13 degrees before top dead centre.(connectors not shunted)
When the the terminals are connected the timing reads #5 deg.
If you set the timing at 5 deg without shunting the connectors you will experience bad fuel consumption and loss of engine performance.
Also if you experience pinging whilst you are driving at any rpm, consider putting in a slightly cooler thermostat.

Hey mate have you changed the fuel filter (i mean again) cause its possible that there could still be a bit more **** blocking it i had the same prob, put bad fuel in my car got injectors cleaned and fuel filter changed then about a month later it started playing up, changed the fuel filter again and been running like a dream since about 6 months ago
I changed it when i got it, will do so again when i get the injectors done.


Hi M
If you are getting bad shuddering, it could be the common fault where water has entered the dist through the perished rubber covering the plug

This can cause excessive advanced timing similar to detonation, forcing the piston down while it is actually still on the way up

This can be serious - my advice is fix it asap

Barry
Thanks man, ive changed the dizzy cap and rotor - seems to have helped with the preignition on cyl4. Seems it was arcing across the points. This is why i also replaced the coil - resistance/arcing can cause damage to it so i thought prudent to do this at the same time. Will check the rubber though. Thanks for the tip.


Serious, someone stole yer speedo?
lol. I mean then the whole damn car was stolen... :cry: Thing was beautiful - never saw it again, i suspect stripped.


You do know that when setting the ignition timing on 2.6 tp-tr that you have to shunt the 2 terminals in the engine connector. Normally when a timing light is shone on the marks it will read about #13 degrees before top dead centre.(connectors not shunted)
When the the terminals are connected the timing reads #5 deg.
If you set the timing at 5 deg without shunting the connectors you will experience bad fuel consumption and loss of engine performance.
Also if you experience pinging whilst you are driving at any rpm, consider putting in a slightly cooler thermostat.
Ill check the timing after the injectors are cleaned and injector filters have been changed. I expect its a combination of "small" probs that are giving me the trouble, its just a case of saving to have them done (where necessary) and working through those i can.
Keep yas posted.