380s sales will be down :cry: this month, Fleets a holding back for the release of VE Holden which is supposed to give a good fuel consumption, Luigi :cool: the barman said he cant wait to get behind the wheel of his Black VE, he said 380s dont :shock: turn him on, what you think...

380s sales will be down :cry: this month, Fleets a holding back for the release of VE Holden which is supposed to give a good fuel consumption, Luigi :cool: the barman said he cant wait to get behind the wheel of his Black VE, he said 380s dont :shock: turn him on, what you think...

Have he drived the 380 at all,mate????

380s sales will be down :cry: this month, Fleets a holding back for the release of VE Holden which is supposed to give a good fuel consumption, Luigi :cool: the barman said he cant wait to get behind the wheel of his Black VE, he said 380s dont :shock: turn him on, what you think...
Im suss on a car that will carry over the same engines and transmissions but put on 100 to 150kg being able to better the previous models fuel consumption figures in real world driving conditions. Also i hear that the VE will be released with a price rise. I heard a figure @ $37000. So unless they offer good discounts to fleets then they might have difficulty shifting them. Remember the 380 is $27990 to the public so i imagine Mitsubishi would offer a sizable discount to fleets which Holden might have difficulty meeting.

New VE Buyers will have the option of buying two locally-built V6 engines or a 6 litre V8 when the car goes on sale next month, New look, new-generation versions of the Holden Commodore will be up against the Toyota Camry which will hit the showrooms almost simultaneously. Toyota plans to unveil its new Camry Four Cylinder next week. The Six Cylinder model Aurion based on the Camry platform will be released in November. These releases spell trouble for the 380s. Fleets are looking at cars that when a couple years old they will get a good return from there original purchase, does the 380 fall into this category as a used car?

[QUOTE=TN88]Have he drived the 380 at all,mate????[/QUOT Answer to your question Yes he has. He reckons the VE has got balls especially with Electronic Stability Control System tossed in, He says Holdens long awaited, Billion dollar "Muscular and Predatory" Commodore is his first choice. Luigi holds down two jobs so i dont think petrol prices worry him, like they impact on me...

New VE Buyers will have the option of buying two locally-built V6 engines or a 6 litre V8 when the car goes on sale next month, New look, new-generation versions of the Holden Commodore will be up against the Toyota Camry which will hit the showrooms almost simultaneously. Toyota plans to unveil its new Camry Four Cylinder next week. The Six Cylinder model Aurion based on the Camry platform will be released in November. These releases spell trouble for the 380s. Fleets are looking at cars that when a couple years old they will get a good return from there original purchase, does the 380 fall into this category as a used car?
Everyone has their own opinion. You friend Luigi sounds like he's a Holdem man through and through and it does not matter to him that the 380 is more refined, better on fuel, better warranty, better resale value, safer and has more features. He'll take the Commodore simply on its names sake. Personally I think the VE will be nothing new. Same old recipe from Holden, same old buyers. It's got the same unrefined engine with the same donk gearbox from a 50's tractor. Add the fact it's 150kgs heavier, and you have a poor revving, unrefined, fuel guzzling barge with wheels.

Add the fact it's 150kgs heavier, and you have a poor revving, unrefined, fuel guzzling barge with wheels.
But it has a Holden Commodore badge and in the end thats all that really matters...lol

Fleet buyers will mostly look at the VE Omega. The VE Omega is expected to be priced at $37k which is nasty considering how scungy Holden are in specification with it.

4 speed auto....same alloytech engine ... how is it better the VZ. Sure it has got ESP, but in everyday driving (where most fleet cars are driven) how will it make a difference? The VE's heavier then the VZ and costs around $2k more. If Mitsubishi play their cards right then they may benefit from the release of the VE. Just think.... a $10k price difference is alot of petrol and if that is what consumers/fleet buyers are worried about the 380, which should be more economical then the VE is going to have some significant advantages. Even though the 380ES interior is nothing flashy, we havn't seen the VE's yet, and considering the price difference the buyer could opt for the 380SX which still costs less then the base VE, has a truckload more features and looks a hell of alot better (depending on how you view the design of course).

If that RRP pricing is correct and petrol prices continue to rise that $10k price difference could sway alot of buyers to the 380. So in that case the VE (cough) could bring more good then bad to 380 sales.

The Camry on the otherhand, which looking like a bulldog at the front (more aggressive; good thing) and having a not too shabby interior looks like it will get more sales then the outgoing model. At the same time it puts to rest the V6 Camry which won't be replaced with a V6 sedan until the Aurion is launched around November. If Mitsubishi hurry up and create a more economical 380 with either a 4-cyl or diesel engine they could have the 380 selling in two markets (with the 4-cyl market possibly attracting more buyers).

Not to mention that the 380 is going to have standard curtain airbags next year, hopefully giving it a 5-star-safety rating :) Something that if Mitsubishi market correctly could add some more sales to the 380. If Mitsubishi add ESP (along with Brake Assist) the 380 would have the single thing which it lacks in comparison with the VE; therefore Holden couldn't use the fact that the VE has ESP bagging the 380 (and other cars) for not having it.

Let's just see how things plan out rather then making assumptions though. Also, "Z456" how the hell can you state "380s sales will be down this month"? If 380 sales rise this month you deserve a bagging. And you've also stated that the VE is expected to have better fuel consumption; we'll just see about that. Just because you and Luigi have a thing for the VE doesn't mean that every public buyer and/or fleet buyer has the same view as you.

Geeez. Just looking at what the VE offers, a few suprises there!
Goodz:
-ESP standard on all model variants (including the crummy Omega and Berlina)
-Has tastes of Audi and BMW designs evident; much better then previous Holden efforts
-Still has less engine torque on all V6 variants then the 380
-Engine power standard at 180kw and 195kw on 'higher output' Alloytech engines
-Nice new colour evident in the range, as on the VE SS at the launch (very similar to the Falcon orange colour though)
-Six speed automatic is standard on all V8's
-Curtain airbags are avaiable and are standard on all model variants except Omega, Berlina, SV6 and SS.

Badz:
-"but curtain and side airbags, while available, remain extra cost options on lower-spec cars" from this I have come to the conclusion that side-airbags may still not be standard on models such as the Omega.
-"while a full-sized spare is available, a skinny space-saver is standard fitment". Ouch that one is nasty. We are talking about a large car created in the interest of Australian drivers and it shafts buyers of the car by including this shotty peice of rubber.
-While fuel consumption figures havn't been released fuel consumption may be higher then the outgoing Commodore as the VE shares the same engine and 4 speed transmissions on SOME V6 variants (Berlina and Omega).

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?articleID=18434&vf=3
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=58415

All in all I must say the VE is not a bad effort for the crew at Elizabeth (and those in Victoria also). It didn't exactly feel that it was launched with a 'bang' as everyone basically knew what the car looked like inside and out because of the images of it which have been swarming the net for weeks. While it is an excellent car and leaves the VZ for dead I feel that $1 billion dollars is alot of money and that some of that should have been invested into a 4-cylinder option (or diesel option) in the VE range. Geez, if Mitsubishi Australia were had the kind of cash I doubt that they would have spent it one one car, but rather another vehicle to compete in the small/medium car segment.

If mitsu just made them RWD and fixed up the look of the front they would have no problems.

I have nothing againts the look of the 380, but most people do.

All in all I must say the VE is not a bad effort for the crew at Elizabeth (and those in Victoria also). It didn't exactly feel that it was launched with a 'bang' as everyone basically knew what the car looked like inside and out because of the images of it which have been swarming the net for weeks. While it is an excellent car and leaves the VZ for dead I feel that $1 billion dollars is alot of money and that some of that should have been invested into a 4-cylinder option (or diesel option) in the VE range.

A 4 cylinder full sized sedan could be fun... Doesn't exactly scream performance...

A 4 cylinder full sized sedan could be fun... Doesn't exactly scream performance...

A 4-cylinder full sized sedan isn't meant to screm performance. It is an alternative for people who may want a large car but don't want the 'large car fuel bill' if you know what I mean. It would be an alternative to cars such as the Mazda6, Camry 4 cylinder, and Honda Accord. Atleast it fuel prices stay a concern Mitsubishi have got two models competing for different shares of the market. For the time being though the huge gap in new RRP prices between the Commodore and the 380 could be enough to sway alot of customers (and it should be too, the 380 shouldn't depreciate as rapidly as previous Magna's as the 380 is currently meeting demand expectations [1,500 a month]); therefore MMAL are effectively building to demand, reducing buildup of stock and hence reducing the amount of discounting on the 380.

I just think that is MMAL did have a 4-cylinder large car it would give Mitsubishi a market of their own to compete, as all cars mentioned earlier (Camry, Accord, Mazda6) are all smaller in size then the 380 and if someone whas specificially looking for a large car with low fuel consumption it wouldn't really give consumers much choice but for them to purchase the 4-cyl variant (dubbed '240') as there is no real alternative vehicle. It would work well with a CVT or 6-speed tranmission and hopefully obtain very respectable fuel consumption figures.

Well MMAL had there chance to stay with 4 cyl but gave it the flick. Toyota stuck with the 4 Cyl Camry and it was & still is winner, Management of both companies have a lot to answer for there Loss & Success of sales. Oh what a Feeling....

Well MMAL had there chance to stay with 4 cyl but gave it the flick. Toyota stuck with the 4 Cyl Camry and it was & still is winner, Management of both companies have a lot to answer for there Loss & Success of sales. Oh what a Feeling....

That is true. But due to the current market situation it would be more then ever beneficial to launch a good looking large 4-cylinder (economical) sedan to the market. If Mitsubishi did try and marketed it correctly I don't see why it couldn't outsell the Camry 4-cyl.

Toyota only have to answer for the loss they made by introducing the Avalon to Australia. The main reason is it was very boxy, very outdated and unstylish at the time of its release. It looked to much like the American version and by the time it got here the Camry had more features then it despite the Avalon been initially pitched at the soft-luxury market. The only other car not selling for Toyota is the v6 Camry which is currently only selling around 800 units a month. This is expected considering what it offers, the RRP and current buyer trends (due to inflated oil prices); hence, the v6 Camry has been chopped and the new Camry (lauched next week) is only available as a 4 cylidner.

Well MMAL had there chance to stay with 4 cyl but gave it the flick. Toyota stuck with the 4 Cyl Camry and it was & still is winner, Management of both companies have a lot to answer for there Loss & Success of sales. Oh what a Feeling....

Did you name yourself after your oil filter??? :gtfo:

Just going back to VE pricing, I think you'll find it'll be priced around the same as the original 380 base price of $35k-$36k (Omega). Holden have kept in the 4 speeder as this model is purposefully aimed at it's most important consumers, the fleets, which Holden plan will make up between 70-75% of total VE sales.

I am surprised the Berlina still has a standard 4 speed auto though. It has gone from a middle-specced variant to a second-rung variant (in 4sp V6 guise).

380 will have a critical edge over VE in terms of fleet sales. Keep in mind that whilst having the "latest craze" (VE Commo) on their fleet is an incentive, they are primarily focused on a business case, that is how the car runs, reliability, fuel efficiency, overall running and repair costs and of course residual resale. So I very much doubt that 380 will suffer any significant downturn in fleet sales. MMAL however would very much be sweating on private sales, which I am quite certain will take an initial dive during the inevitable VE hype to come.

Mitsubishi have in a way though got the 4cyl market covered with the mivec lancer. Its a big 2.4 litre engine, the interior of the car is nearly 75% as big as a magna, but its small enough where the mum or dad with only 1 - 2 kids can still use it as an everday shopper. And its available in a wagon as well.

I think Mitsubishi are concentrating on the bigger cars with bigger engines, and having a more mid sized vehicle for the 4cyl range. I must admit I would be hard pressed to decide between a 380 and a mivec lancer as they are on par power wise on a power to weight ratio but the slightly smaller car does appeal to me.

Just an extension on what you said mitsiman, it also seems that the lancer is coming into the middle sized car range, and mits are marketing the colt as the "new" small car. Almost like the lancer is trying to fill the gap between magna and 380.

A 700GT RWD from mitsu couldn't go down to bad.

A 700GT RWD from mitsu couldn't go down to bad.
lol keep dreaming

the 380 is more refined, better on fuel, better warranty, better resale value, safer and has more features.

Are you sure about that?

Have you been in the new VE Commodore, SS, Calais or Statesman? I hadnt realised the crash tests have come out on the VE already!

As for resale. hahah what a joke.

25km on the clock - 380 VRX - $30k drive away.. (http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.dealer_vehicle?vehicle_id=3273211&current_rec=33&total_rec=105&sort_type=3&make_id=3&model_id=5100&search_distance=25) Thats $7000 less than the advertised price of 1 new. Resale value my as s!

lol keep dreaming

Fuel efficiency is nice but people prefer bragging rights.

It didn't mater what other people had done to their cars my 308 just sounded so much better than a 245 or what ever they are...

Are you sure about that?

Have you been in the new VE Commodore, SS, Calais or Statesman? I hadnt realised the crash tests have come out on the VE already!

As for resale. hahah what a joke.

25km on the clock - 380 VRX - $30k drive away.. (http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.dealer_vehicle?vehicle_id=3273211&current_rec=33&total_rec=105&sort_type=3&make_id=3&model_id=5100&search_distance=25) Thats $7000 less than the advertised price of 1 new. Resale value my as s!
Assuming the standard VE has the same amount of airbags as the VZ? I'm probably wrong.

As for resale, this car here (http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.dealer_vehicle?vehicle_id=3294641&current_rec=1&total_rec=6&sort_type=1&make_id=10&model_id=4840&badge_id=40204&state_id=-1&search_distance=25) backs up my statement. 2006 VZ Berlina with 3 000 kms for $34k. Considering that car was $44k when new, that's $10 000 just by drving it off the lot. 380s have the best resale of any locally made 6 cyl. Especially the series 2.

Assuming the standard VE has the same amount of airbags as the VZ? I'm probably wrong.

As for resale, this car here (http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/%21cs_content.dealer_vehicle?vehicle_id=3294641&current_rec=1&total_rec=6&sort_type=1&make_id=10&model_id=4840&badge_id=40204&state_id=-1&search_distance=25) backs up my statement. 2006 VZ Berlina with 3 000 kms for $34k. Considering that car was $44k when new, that's $10 000 just by drving it off the lot. 380s have the best resale of any locally made 6 cyl. Especially the series 2.
Youre going on past sales.

Do you know Holdens marketing strategies for the VE?

The posted 380VRX has 25km's on the clock and lost 7k..

You also forget the commodore is the largest selling family sedan in australia. If theres plenty for sale, then of course the price is going to be lower.

If the 380 was selling 4k cars a month, im sure it would lose even more than the commodore.

It's not a base Commodore tho, it's a Berlina. It's a little more exclusive. Your last point is redundant.


The posted 380VRX has 25km's on the clock and lost 7k..

The posted Berlina has 3km's on the clock and lost 10k... Cars lose more value as they get more kms put on them, they don't lose more value for having fewer kms.

It's not a base Commodore tho, it's a Berlina. It's a little more exclusive. Your last point is redundant. Ok not a base commo..

Well heres the top of the line 380 GT series 1 for 35k.. only 7500km's on the ODO... $10k drop (if you go off the series II price, or 12k+ on old series 1 price) in under a year..

Awsome resale value that! lol

Lets face it, by the end of this year you will beable to get a series 1 GT for little more than 25k..


hey don't lose more value for having fewer kms.
Who said they did? I was pointing out that the car had only 25km's on the clock and lost 7k in value.. Imagine 40,000km's on the clock.. You could buy it for probably 20k.. - This is a 380 VRX - 2nd from the top of line GT.... lol

The Berlina lost 10k just by driving off the car lot. So that there destroys your whole argument. You cannot predict the future so the comment about the GT for 25k is again, redundant. The Berlina is just below the Calais isn't it? I'm not sure how Holden models go, but I always thought the Exec, Berlina and Calais were all "Commodores" While the Statesman, Caprice and Senator were the luxury LWB models, then the SS and SSV were the "Sport" versions. I'll admit that there is a more definitive differentiation between models with Holden.

The VRX is third btw, under the LX.

The Berlina lost 10k just by driving off the car lot. So that there destroys your whole argument.

Ok so the berlina lost $10k in value from driving 3000km's..

Yet the 380 VRX lost $7k in value from driving 25km's..

Why does that destroy my whole arguement?

Ok so the berlina lost $10k in value from driving 3000km's..

Yet the 380 VRX lost $7k in value from driving 25km's..

Why does that destroy my whole arguement?
Because the VRX has travelled 8 times the amount of kilometers of the Berlina and has lost $3k less off it's value. So, it has better resale value. Unless i'm missing something completely?

Because the VRX has travelled 8 times the amount of kilometers of the Berlina and has lost $3k less off it's value. So, it has better resale value. Unless i'm missing something completely?
umm.. dood.

You might want to read..

Go look at the forsale ad of the Berlina.. it has Three thousand, one hundred and fifty five kilometres on the odometer. (thats 3155km's on the odo)

The 380 VRX has twenty five kilometres on the odometer (thats 0025km's on the odo)
:shock::shock:

Any fleet car is going to have poor resale value. All the discounting and poor sales definitely aren't helping the 380's resale value. It hasn't even been a year since it was released. And as much as I'm fine with FWD, that doesn't help its resale value either. A 380VRX or GT doesn't have enough to separate them from a base model so their resale values are even worse, especially when compared to a XR6T or SS.
Definitely not a good idea buying a brand new 380 except for fleet use, which is quite unfortunate for MMAL. New Aurion later this year and new Falcon coming as well.
All of these cars will be battling for a share in the shrinking big V6 market. I think it's quite possible within 10 years, 2 of them will be doomed or manufactured offshore.

Er, 25kms? Surely they mean 25k? If not then I completely overloooked that and genuinely thought it was 25 000kms. Hence my previous posts.

Er, 25kms? Surely they mean 25k? If not then I completely overloooked that and genuinely thought it was 25 000kms. Hence my previous posts.

No worries :)

We use what information we have at the time.

Yeah the Holden VZs would be suffering a poorer resale value at the moment due to the near release of the VE.

But still, I don't think Mitsubishi has been able to sufficiently address their resale woes that the new "380" name was supposed to achieve over the Magna.

Yeah the Holden VZs would be suffering a poorer resale value at the moment due to the near release of the VE.

But still, I don't think Mitsubishi has been able to sufficiently address their resale woes that the new "380" name was supposed to achieve over the Magna.

Depends. The 380 has terrible re-sale values with SI if you use RRP pricing. The problem is that no-one every paid the RRP price (ok, maybe very few) and because you can buy a b/new SI 380 for $26,990 may seem you've lost $7k but due to price adjustments made for SII you've only actually lost $1k as it is basically the exact same as the SII 380ES anyway.

380 SII will probably have better resale value then all other Australian sedans (maybe even the Camry) but you'll have to wait and see. It is too early to make a judgement call considering the amount of time SII has been on sale for. The only reason so many SI 380's are still sitting around is because of their original RRP pricing, as suggested by some, if MMAL used theh SII 380 pricing at launch they would have sold alot more 380's and hopefully would have started off on a higer note.

We'll just have to see what MMAL have in store for the 380 in the near future, I really don't think the VE will hurt fleet sales though if it is priced $10k higher. Even the private buyer may not look at the VE because $10k is a huge difference especially when the VE will cost more to run then the 380 so when factored in the first year of owning a VE would actually cost you $11k - $12k more then a 380 without even factoring in resale values (which may make a SII 380ES even better value).

Lets face it, by the end of this year you will beable to get a series 1 GT for little more than 25k..
Aw come on Baino you know better than that...:naughty: :D

I can't believe so many people here are completely delirious and defensive when it comes to the 380.

The fact is, it may be a better car in a lot of ways but Mitsubishi have made many mistakes.

There's not enough engine options.

It's ugly.

It's not RWD.

This is why it will NEVER outsell a commodore or falcon. The fact is, you CANNOT sway the market they were targeting (Commodore,Falcon) with FWD and boring looks. It's just not going to happen.

If they wanted to target the Camry then once again they've made a silly move by offering no 4cyl. If they did that, i'd say it would have a good chance against Camry.

The 380 is in some middle market of its own with no buyers and that's it. MMAL's management need a slap over the head.

I can't believe so many people here are completely delirious and defensive when it comes to the 380.

The fact is, it may be a better car in a lot of ways but Mitsubishi have made many mistakes.

There's not enough engine options.

It's ugly.

It's not RWD.

This is why it will NEVER outsell a commodore or falcon. The fact is, you CANNOT sway the market they were targeting (Commodore,Falcon) with FWD and boring looks. It's just not going to happen.

If they wanted to target the Camry then once again they've made a silly move by offering no 4cyl. If they did that, i'd say it would have a good chance against Camry.

The 380 is in some middle market of its own with no buyers and that's it. MMAL's management need a slap over the head.

you can go on about it not having enough engine options, not being RWD and being ugly all you like and blame that for it not out selling commodore and falcon but to be blunt its all a load of crap. It will never out sell commodore or falcon because it does not wear a commodore or falcon badge. Simple as that!

380 SII will probably have better resale value then all other Australian sedans (maybe even the Camry) but you'll have to wait and see. Thats a big call to make, I don't think it's quite as simplistic as that but we'll see.

380 SII will probably have better resale value then all other Australian sedans (maybe even the Camry) but you'll have to wait and see.

Supply and demand dictates that it will not be the better resale value of the Australian sedans.

I dont know anyone who would pay a premium to have a car not many people in the market segment want..

Thats a big call to make, I don't think it's quite as simplistic as that but we'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adz89
380 SII will probably have better resale value then all other Australian sedans (maybe even the Camry) but you'll have to wait and see.


That comment/statement was more specificially aimed at the 380ES and possibly the SX and VRX (volume selling models; models which are in higher demand).

I would pick the 380 anyday, i have a VY series two exec which i drive also in conjuction to my KR Verada. And i can honestly say that the KR is a nicer drive than the VY.

Better fuel economy, Smoother engine, less rattles and clunks, better handling, braking is on par even though the KR doesnt have ABS. And the KR at least has rear power windows.

Now i know that the KR to VY Comparison is very out there and probably could be shot down as a comparsion but i do use it. And that the 380 to KR and VY to VE are different also. However judging on past experiences the Mitsubishi would be the smart mans choice over the Holden. Just Compare the KR to the VP and you will see what i mean.

you can go on about it not having enough engine options, not being RWD and being ugly all you like and blame that for it not out selling commodore and falcon but to be blunt its all a load of crap. It will never out sell commodore or falcon because it does not wear a commodore or falcon badge. Simple as that!
hahaha we agree on something!lol


Supply and demand dictates that it will not be the better resale value of the Australian sedans.

I dont know anyone who would pay a premium to have a car not many people in the market segment want..
An interesting point you make there. History does ahow that supply and demand dictates resale over time. Just look at the "BIG 4" ranked from highest to lowest sales (in recent times):

1) Commodore
2) Falcon
3) Camry 4cyl/V6
4) Magna/380

Funnily enough this is roughly the order by which these cars would be ranked according to resale (might need to double check figures though).

I do however believe that MMAL's new pricing structure for 380 will have a positive effect (or affect?:confused:) on 380's long term resale. Sure we see cars advertised new at $3-$4k below RRP, but the dealer and manufacturer has lost money... while the customer walks away laughing having saved $$$$$.

I can't believe so many people here are completely delirious and defensive when it comes to the 380.

The fact is, it may be a better car in a lot of ways but Mitsubishi have made many mistakes.

There's not enough engine options.

It's ugly.

It's not RWD.

This is why it will NEVER outsell a commodore or falcon. The fact is, you CANNOT sway the market they were targeting (Commodore,Falcon) with FWD and boring looks. It's just not going to happen.

If they wanted to target the Camry then once again they've made a silly move by offering no 4cyl. If they did that, i'd say it would have a good chance against Camry.

The 380 is in some middle market of its own with no buyers and that's it. MMAL's management need a slap over the head.


OK. Lets unpick your statements.

Ugly? Well, maybe.
Not RWD. - not valid. Most drivers dont give a fig.
380 is a car for 2003, not 2006. Thus, yes, it's now in a market of its own.
Yes, it could do with more engines. But do you have the money? MMAL doesn't.

380 won an engine award, and car of the year award from the motoring orgs (NRMA/RACV etc). Why did it win them?

380 is a better engineered car. Look up the word - engineering.

I put it all down to Aussies being one eyed in car choices. The red lion, or the blue oval. And increasingly, SUV mad! (Territorys, Outbacks, Foresters, Xtrails etc).

And the TL/TW turned Aussies of Mitsubishi forever!!!

The TE and TF sold heaps, and then from about halfway through the TH, things went down hill in sales.

Cheers:cool: :D

The TE and TF sold heaps, and then from about halfway through the TH, things went down hill in sales.

Cheers:cool: :D

Because mitsubishis designers didnt innovate, they just tweaked the same model for 10 years....ewww, still remember the first time i saw a TJ bonnet lol still look like **** to me IMHO id never own one

Because mitsubishis designers didnt innovate, they just tweaked the same model for 10 years

Thats Mitsubishi Australias problem right there. And not just with design.

Examples : CE Lancer (went for ages and CG CH werent really much of an improvement)
Triton (only just got a new model after around 10 years)
L300 (around 15 years old and only recently got rid of carbies)
3rd gen magnas (should of been heavily modified after TJ)
Challenger (just plain old)

[QUOTE=adz89]-"while a full-sized spare is available, a skinny space-saver is standard fitment". Ouch that one is nasty. We are talking about a large car created in the interest of Australian drivers and it shafts buyers of the car by including this shotty peice of rubber.
-While fuel consumption figures havn't been released fuel consumption may be higher then the outgoing Commodore as the VE shares the same engine and 4 speed transmissions on SOME V6 variants (Berlina and Omega).

Yea,saw in today paper about the space-saver:nuts:

Thats Mitsubishi Australias problem right there. And not just with design.

Examples : CE Lancer (went for ages and CG CH werent really much of an improvement)
Triton (only just got a new model after around 10 years)
L300 (around 15 years old and only recently got rid of carbies)
3rd gen magnas (should of been heavily modified after TJ)
Challenger (just plain old)

Would it be a question of budget? of Japan Mitsu going a little green in the financia department and leaving no R&D money to design a new medium-large passenger sedan for the o/s markets?

The rot started around 2001...

PRICING IN MORE DETAIL
As noted above, V-Series special edition aside, Omega kicks off the range at $36,490 with air and ESP. A Side Protection Pack with side and curtain airbags and active front head restraints is also available as an option on Omega priced at $2000. A full-size spare will cost you another $100. Other options listed include Bluetooth preparation ($390) and a six-disc stacker at $595.

Berlina starts at $39,990 with the V6 or $44,990 for the 6.0-litre V8 with six-speed auto, and gets 17-inch alloy wheels, multi-function display screen, side impact airbags (curtain airbags optional with leather trim seats at $2500), rear park assist, bluetooth connectivity, MP3-compatible six-disc in-dash CD player, leather wrap steering wheel and dual-zone climate control.

In comparison the VZ Berlina was priced from $43,890 and $48,590 for the V6 and V8 models respectively.

Holden's sports-oriented Commodores start with the SV6, equipped with the 3.6-litre V6 (rated at 195kW/340Nm) and six-speed manual for $39,990. Optional five-speed automatic with Active Select will cost you another $1000 and both versions get 18-inch alloy wheels, dual-stage front airbags, side impact airbags (curtain airbags optional with leather trim seats – see Berlina above), sports suspension, sports fascia, body kit and rear spoiler, front fog lamps, body-coloured mirrors and door handles, dual exhaust with chrome tips, leather wrap steering wheel, Bluetooth connectivity and power windows.

Next in the ring, the 6.0-litre V8 270kW/530Nm six-speed manual SS is priced at $44,990 – a saving, says Holden, of $6800 over the equivalent VZ. The optional six-speed auto will cost you $2000 more and standard SS features include quad exhaust, 18-inch alloy wheels, dual-stage front airbags, side impact airbags (curtain airbags optional with leather trim seats – see Berlina above), sports suspension, sports body kit, sports seats, MP3-compatible six-disc in-dash CD player and leather wrap steering wheel.

The 'V'-treated SS V model starts at $51,990 ($200 more than the old SS) with six-speed manual and has all SS features plus projector headlamps, 19-inch alloy wheels, multi-function display, curtain airbags, dual-zone climate control, 230-watt audio system with sub-woofer, colour-coded instrument cluster, sports gauges, sports profile leather wrap steering wheel, leather seat trim and alloy pedals. Auto will cost you $2000 more.

Luxury-level Calais is more affordable starting at $45,490 for the 195kW V6 and five-speed automatic or $50,490 with V8 and six-speed auto. Standard spec features build on the Berlina spec plus sport suspension, projector headlamps, chrome bonnet header, dual exhaust (quad on V6) with chrome tips, curtain air bags, six-way power driver's seat and passenger seat with leather bolsters, full color multi-function display, leather grip on gear shift and rear seat centre armrest.

Calais V, for $53,490 with V6 or $58,490 with V8, has all Calais features plus zoned front and rear park assist, rain sensing wipers, external mirror puddle lamps, 18-inch alloy wheels, leather seat trim, single screen roof-mounted DVD, 230-watt audio system with sub-woofer, priority seat and mirror memory, eight-way power front seats and sliding centre armrest.

For more details on the long-wheelbase WM models check out CarPoint’s separate story here soon.


VE pricing
Omega (no A/C) $34,490
Omega (with A/C) $36,490
Berlina V6 $39,990
Berlina V8 $44,990
SV6 (6spd manual) $39,990
SV6 (5spd auto) $40,990
SS (6spd manual) $44,990
SS (6spd auto) $46,990
SS V (6spd manual) $51,990
SS V (6spd auto) $53,990
Calais V6 $45,490
Calais V8 $50,490
Calais V V6 $53,490
Calais V V8 $58,490

WM pricing
Statesman V6 $58,990
Statesman V8 $62,990
Caprice V6 $65,990
Caprice V8 $69,990

good too see commodore owners can now drive a BA Falcon with a holden badge they look the same to me

I hear alot of talk amongst my friends all being holden freaks, about the new VE and how they think it will sink in sales due to its heavy weight, cause even the new v6 motor in the vx struggles, a friend of mine has the v6 in his crewman and complaines all the time about the lack of power and the fuel it uses and I think too this will be the case with the VE.

But we have to wait and see I suppose, as those stupid stickers on the windscreens with suposed fuel figures dont mean jack!!!

And mostly the reason for the good sales of holden is the NAME, I drive a holden, look at me look at me, mentality, people need to see past the badges as the 380 is a bloody beautiful car to drive, and then the price, the 380 should be flying out the door.

Ok today I bought a VE Omega. I got the absolute base model to save on costs and only paid $34,490 before on-road-costs and gvt. charges. I felt that I got a bargain as it has ESP. Unfortunately I got no side airbags, no full size spare and no air conditioning. I might also add that it has a class-leading four speed automatic with no tiptronic and while our previous VZ exec used alot of fuel this car I have come to the realisation that this (VE Omega) is our saviour as it is meant to use less fuel despite the fact that it weighs 150kg more then the VZ, has more engine power and shares the same 4-speed transmission. After we purchased the car from Holden and assured by the dealer that it was very good value I later assessed the carsguide to find that I could have purchased a brand new Mitsubishi SII 380ES for $29,990 with a 5 speed tiptronic tans, a/c standard, full size spare, 5/10 warranty, better engine, better economy.

So the next day I went to my local Mitsubishi dealer and traded in the VE Omega and they did a fair trade. Thank god I seen the 380ES in the paper and spotted it before my VE depreciated any further.

Yep, it's physically IMPOSSIBLE for a car that weighs more and has more power to use less fuel than teh previous model under the same driving conditions as the old model.
On highway only cycle, maybe, but no way in the real world.
I wonder how much longer Holden is going to stick with an antiquated 4 spd auto(still just a modified TH 400, slap in an extra gear), and ancient engine?

Regards, Andrew.

Ok today I bought a VE Omega. I got the absolute base model to save on costs and only paid $34,490 before on-road-costs and gvt. charges. I felt that I got a bargain as it has ESP. Unfortunately I got no side airbags, no full size spare and no air conditioning. I might also add that it has a class-leading four speed automatic with no tiptronic and while our previous VZ exec used alot of fuel this car I have come to the realisation that this (VE Omega) is our saviour as it is meant to use less fuel despite the fact that it weighs 150kg more then the VZ, has more engine power and shares the same 4-speed transmission. After we purchased the car from Holden and assured by the dealer that it was very good value I later assessed the carsguide to find that I could have purchased a brand new Mitsubishi SII 380ES for $29,990 with a 5 speed tiptronic tans, a/c standard, full size spare, 5/10 warranty, better engine, better economy.

So the next day I went to my local Mitsubishi dealer and traded in the VE Omega and they did a fair trade. Thank god I seen the 380ES in the paper and spotted it before my VE depreciated any further.
lol.
Holden have the sales momentum to do this, and the 380 doesn't (why their cars are so cheap). It's now up to the public to realise that a shift is neccessary, but will they? only time will tell.

and ancient engine?


cause even the new v6 motor in the vx struggles, a friend of mine has the v6 in his crewman and complaines all the time about the lack of power and the fuel it uses and I think too this will be the case with the VE.


The engines are new - Alloytech was released in 2005 on the VZ model, not VX.


Engines in the VE have gained 5kw on the previous Alloytech VZ.

The 4 speed transmission is only in the Omega and Berlina, although the Omega will make up the bulk of the fleet sales, most upper fleet models will be satisfied by extra SS and Calais models (ie, Berlina falls to Acclaim levels, Berlina replaced by Calais, Calais replaced by Calais V, Sv8 gone replaced by SS, SS replaced by SS-V). Actually a fairly clever marketing technique as the VE SS and Calais will now trade on the goodwill of the VZ SS and Calais nameplate when their substantially less of a car than what they used to be.

The 4 speed transmission is only in the Omega and Berlina, although the Omega will make up the bulk of the fleet sales, most upper fleet models will be satisfied by extra SS and Calais models (ie, Berlina falls to Acclaim levels, Berlina replaced by Calais, Calais replaced by Calais V, Sv8 gone replaced by SS, SS replaced by SS-V). Actually a fairly clever marketing technique as the VE SS and Calais will now trade on the goodwill of the VZ SS and Calais nameplate when their substantially less of a car than what they used to be.
Well spotted Dave. Now THAT IS interesting...:think:

The engines are new - Alloytech was released in 2005 on the VZ model, not VX.


Engines in the VE have gained 5kw on the previous Alloytech VZ.

The 4 speed transmission is only in the Omega and Berlina, although the Omega will make up the bulk of the fleet sales, most upper fleet models will be satisfied by extra SS and Calais models (ie, Berlina falls to Acclaim levels, Berlina replaced by Calais, Calais replaced by Calais V, Sv8 gone replaced by SS, SS replaced by SS-V). Actually a fairly clever marketing technique as the VE SS and Calais will now trade on the goodwill of the VZ SS and Calais nameplate when their substantially less of a car than what they used to be.

While the Allotech engine was new in the VZ, it is/was a discusting engine. It wasn't old it was just crap compared to offerings of other brands. From what I have heard Holden have improved the Alloytech alot for the VE, and while tuning (or uptuning) it they have increased power by 5kw and also engine torque.

Good to note your relisation on the VE model variants. While Holden and the carpoint may claim you may be saving $6800 or $8400 on a particular model you are actually getting less of a car that you would've if you were to by a VZ. Sad, but clever. As people will look at the RRP pricing of a VZ Calais and a VE and think urr.. the price has dropped, until the buyer realises the car's memory system (mirrors, seats, audio) and leather trim are not standard. Same story with the SS, so if CarPoint properly compared pricing of equivalent models rather then just looking at the deceiving nameplate the savings wouldn't be as significant and would catch some consumers off-guard (altough I'm sure someone going from a VZ Calais with leather would notice that the VE Calais does not have standard leather).

Let's just hope Holden's advertising campaign is average, something that is boring and doesn't grab people's attention; unfourtunately this won't be the case though :rant:

Remember thought that Holden has spent over $1billion on this car. They won't be giving the first models away. I would think that later on, series 2 or VD/F??, that they would drop some models as they would have very little debt left.

Interesting discussions/pictures/videos/specs over on the LS1 forum. www.ls1.com.au Literally hundreds of posts and opinions both negative and positive.

Also interesting read in the "general forums" general automotive" section titled "poor 380"

Cheers.

Interesting discussions/pictures/videos/specs over on the LS1 forum. www.ls1.com.au Literally hundreds of posts and opinions both negative and positive.

Also interesting read in the "general forums" general automotive" section titled "poor 380"

Cheers.

Thanks for that. I'll look at that right now (on my superfast 64k connection!).

How can they pay out the 380?? It's better engineered then any V6 commodore i've ever been in/seen.

Acutally some of them are supporting it, but my statement on the Commodore still stands.

Interesting discussions/pictures/videos/specs over on the LS1 forum. www.ls1.com.au Literally hundreds of posts and opinions both negative and positive.

Also interesting read in the "general forums" general automotive" section titled "poor 380"

Cheers.
I have the last shape magna as a work car and I must say the V6 is quite strong.

Not much fun though when you nail it out of a round-about and the front wheels start spinning and all the car wants to do is go straight ahead !!
Quoted from LS1 forums, that's the mentallity of RWD lovers!
The main argument i hear about RWD being better then FWD is that it's more fun losing it around corners :nuts: .

Not much fun though when you nail it out of a round-about and the front wheels start spinning and all the car wants to do is go straight ahead !!

Its called understeer, most cars have this built in, yes even RWD. However FWD's are more susceptible to this characteristic. For a performance sedan with an enthusiast at the wheel its better to have a car that oversteers than a car that understeer. For everyone else, understeering would be more preferable.

You have to understand that most forums are filled with car enthusiasts, not A to B drivers.

Its called understeer, most cars have this built in, yes even RWD. However FWD's are more susceptible to this characteristic. For a performance sedan with an enthusiast at the wheel its better to have a car that oversteers than a car that understeer. For everyone else, understeering would be more preferable.

You have to understand that most forums are filled with car enthusiasts, not A to B drivers.
Sorry i read that as he was complaining that the car was going straight, as in where it's suppose to go rather than losing it.
I know what understeer is and to be honest i find it alot easier to control than oversteer, but i've driven mostly fwd's so my opinion is abit biased, just like what people who drive RWD's all the time are towards FWD.

Just read the thread at LS1 forum
and i think they were very fair to the 380

getting into the under/over steer
you must admit hagging it sidways is fun (in controled circumstances)
but i did not buy my magna for that.
Its well built,good on fuel and looks good (to me at least)
and in a straight line its a rocket
think only comm to beat me was a v8 (was in contoled circumstances)

If someone buys a car based upon the way it hangs the **** end out, then they are an idiot.

If someone buys a car based upon the way it hangs the **** end out, then they are an idiot.
Seconded.

Seconded.

:stoopid:

If someone buys a car based upon the way it hangs the **** end out, then they are an idiot.

Its funny that someone here is criticising a man for liking the characteristics of a RWD, yet everyone gets upset when someone criticises the characteristics of a FWD. Hmmm.. whats good for the goose...

I think FWD is great, especially on muddy or low traction roads. But I do love the fun you can have with a well-sorted RWD.

But back on the VE, $36,490 with A/c, 4 speed auto & no side airbags, Ouch!
The 380ES would have to be one of the best value cars on the market, in fact its a few grand LESS than a similarly equipped 1.8L Corolla Ultima.

do people think the more gears the better the gearbox or somethin????

you can get a 4spd auto just as good as a 5spd auto if you have the right ratios.

do people think the more gears the better the gearbox or somethin????

you can get a 4spd auto just as good as a 5spd auto if you have the right ratios.

Depending on what automatic gearbox you are talking about, the higher the number of gears in that gearbox ultimately leads to a smoother ride with less noticable gear changes and usually better fuel economy. It's just the fact that the 4 speed automatic gearbox Holden have kept (considering it is the same as previous Commodore 4 speed autos) is a dated gear box that rev's too high and really shouldn't be in a car that has $1 billion+ dollars invested into it and has a starting price of $36,490 (with air + orc, dealer deliv. & govt. charges).

In a time where fuel prices are high, fuel economy has become a huge influencing factor when people purchase a car. So by Holden keeping the 4 speed auto, adding some 150kgs to the car and having a slightly updated Alloytech engine pumping out 180kw (5 more kw then VZ) it is obvious that fuel economy will probably not improve significantly compared to VZ 4 speed auto V6 Commodores; in fact many argue that fuel economy of 4 speed automatic VE commodores may be worse then 4 speed automatic VZ commmodores (which I hope for the sake of Holden that its not :confused:).

I just hope they eventually come to the realisation that a 4 speed automatic is not suitable for a large car launched in the year 2006; particuarly when more and more people are choosing cars which have better fuel economy.

The VE isn't a bad car it just has a few things which suprise me considering what you get for the RRP price of the car. For example, a VE Omega with a/c costs $36,490 and has:
-No standard side airbags
-No standard full size spare (what were Holden thinking? :nuts:)
-A Shorter Warranty Compared to some competitors (e.g. Mitsubishi and Hyundai)
-A 4 speed automatic gear box
-Around 150kgs more weight then equivalent VZ
-Hubcaps (considering it's price this is also unacceptable)
-Ugly mirrors and door handles (partiuarly the door handles; it shows that Holden wanted to let the public know [from a side on view] that the person driving the car is disadvantaged and they [or the company they work for] made an ill choice when purchasing a vehicle :D).

Another thing is, not having standard side airbags will hurt the VE's crash rating as the volume selling model is usually tested. As I doubt more then 50% of Omega drivers will pay extra for side airbags the model tested may only have dual (driver and passenger) airbags, meaning that the VE may get a crash rating may demote the car from European comparisons as the model tested probably won't have all the available (optional) airbags.

If someone buys a car based upon the way it hangs the **** end out, then they are an idiot.


Its funny that someone here is criticising a man for liking the characteristics of a RWD, yet everyone gets upset when someone criticises the characteristics of a FWD. Hmmm.. whats good for the goose...
People, please think before you post!:)


Another thing is, not having standard side airbags will hurt the VE's crash rating as the volume selling model is usually tested. As I doubt more then 50% of Omega drivers will pay extra for side airbags the model tested may only have dual (driver and passenger) airbags, meaning that the VE may get a crash rating may demote the car from European comparisons as the model tested probably won't have all the available (optional) airbags.
Well spotted mate. As most of us will know, Toyota's Yaris missed out on getting a 5-star crash safety rating in Aus (ANCAP) due to the simple fact it's quite substantial safety options are exactly that - options. 380 wasn't too far off a 5-star rating (Territory came even closer) WITHOUT additional airbags.

With around 70%, and possibly more, of VE sales going to fleets, and a majority of that being the stock Omega model, there is no doubt it will be tested without the airbags, therefore sacrificing a 5-star rating. Though by the next round of crash tests next year there is every chance that VE (and 380) will have standard curtain airbags.

-No standard full size spare (what were Holden thinking? )
:bowrofl:
...and don't forget stock Omega has no air conditioning!:bowrofl:

Hmm, all this for $34.5k, or a 380 with full size spare, CLIMATE CONTROL air con, 5 SPEED auto for $30k...

Ah thank you Holden for giving our 380 a fighting chance in the ever-crucial fleet market.

...and don't forget stock Omega has no air conditioning!

Hmm, all this for $34.5k, or a 380 with full size spare, CLIMATE CONTROL air con, 5 SPEED auto for $30k...

Ah thank you Holden for giving our 380 a fighting chance in the ever-crucial fleet market.

Yeah I know the stock Omega has no air-condition but I really didn't think the VE Omega (with no A/C) was worthy of comparison.

So thinking of it like that; you are paying $4,500 more for VE Omega (with NO A/C) then you are for a SII 380ES.
That $4.5k extra gives you:
-No Air con (or C/Control - Holden knows what to cut out; something the consumer doesn't need :bowrofl:; suprising considering I live in Adelaide [where the VE is made] and in Summer it gets to a chilling 46C; see Holden are smart!! Who needs air-con in a car?)
-1 less gear on the automatic and no tiptronic shifting option (come on people with no brain/knowledge won't care!!! Holden did this because they knew their customers are oblivious to what the car actually offers; Who cares about fuel economy)
-An awsome space saver tyre (really really good in Australia; especially on long trips. There is an abundance of desert, so if you are driving you can drive alongside the road with the metal scraping the ground once the space saver is rooted)
-No side airbags??? That is a good thing as Holdens will deflate when they were not designed to; smart pre-caution :D (strange everybody compares the VE to european cars and how many airbags do european cars have?? :D; even in the standard model variants)
-A warranty 2+ years shorter then competitors offerings. If previous Holden's are to go by Holden know that they don't need a long warranty. Their cars are impeccably built and they feel they don't need to offer their buyers peice of mind as that little red lion (well silver actually) gives them all the peice of mind they need
-Attractive looking plastic black exterior mirrors and door handles.

Come on though, that $6.5k difference in price (with A/C optioned) provides the driver with ESP. This is before you even factor in the other options such as side airbags, an extended warranty, a full size spare, a 5 speed gearbox, body coloured mirrors and door handles and I'm sure theirs other things in this excellenty priced car someone could dig up. So by the time options are included the difference would probably approach (in excess) of $9k.

I must say that ESP system is worth $9k. I spoze when MMAL add it to the 380 the ESP system will probably be an option on lower spec 380's and will only cost the buyer an extra $9k. I think if I was to bring a car out on the market today I would do the same thing. If the driver wants an ESP system just wack nearly 10 grand on the price of the car? Sound reasonable :bowrofl:

But remember everyone the "VE Commodore delivers the ultimate value to the Australian buyer." I whole heartedly (sp?) agree :D

Well done Holden, everyone will want the VE. $1,000,000,000 well spent

Who could argue against adz89's very well put arguements? Not me i tell ya! :bowrofl:

nice one adz89, so very true :bowrofl:, now all MMAL needs to do is get more power out of the 3.8 V6 and they have got a totally better car than the VE

That's good stuff adz89, I see you've got the cynicism stuff right down pat... :badgrin:

Now just make sure you send that off to Holden's marketing team for them to spread the word. After all it's not fair you give all this advise to MMAL (I bet you could put a novel together from all I've read:)) and give sh!t f all to Holden...

Its funny that someone here is criticising a man for liking the characteristics of a RWD, yet everyone gets upset when someone criticises the characteristics of a FWD. Hmmm.. whats good for the goose...

I think FWD is great, especially on muddy or low traction roads. But I do love the fun you can have with a well-sorted RWD.
???

I don't get upset about someone criticisng the characteristics of a FWD lol

I said that if someone buys a car simply based on the fact that it can hang the back end out, then they're stupid. It makes sense. In fact, it was agreeing with ben anyway...

Actually, hanging out the rear is a lot of fun, but it won't win you the next corner. Anyone who has done any track work knows that taking the line through a corner as fast as possible without excess under/oversteer and getting the power down as early as possible wins the day.
The 380 is right there; as evidenced in the Wheels handling test. If it can outgrip an R8 and Golf GTI (one of my hero cars!) is gotta be doing something right.

Let the RWD drivers have as much tail sliding as they like - it looks good in my rear view mirrors!

Let the RWD drivers have as much tail sliding as they like - it looks good in my rear view mirrors!
haha well said ol' chap!lol

and people will continue to buy them in their millions....coz they a Holden....
sad aint it.

Resale on all cars is pretty bad, remember there has been record car sales for the last how many years? Which leaves a glut of used cars out there, its a buyers market.

RWD > FWD
Holden > Mitsubishi
VE Commodore > Mitsubishi 380

BUT $36,490 > $27,990
Value for money:Mitsubishi 380 > VE Commodore

The VE Commodore is the better car, but I'd much rather buy a Mitsubishi 380 with $9,000 cash in my pocket.

P.S. Long time no see (it's been over 1 month since my last post) :P

RWD > FWD
Holden > Mitsubishi
VE Commodore > Mitsubishi 380

BUT $36,490 > $27,990
Value for money:Mitsubishi 380 > VE Commodore

The VE Commodore is the better car, but I'd much rather buy a Mitsubishi 380 with $9,000 cash in my pocket.

P.S. Long time no see (it's been over 1 month since my last post)

How do you know the VE Commodore is a better car? I thought that depends on personal preference/personal taste.

Have you driven the VE Commodore or seen it in person? (I havn't driven it, but, have seen it in person).

Just to mention a few things; what car offers more value, has lower running costs, (probably) offers better build quality, is more economical, has a better warranty and more equipment for the dollar?
Answer: The Mitsubishi SII 380

Please don't *** mentioned RWD/FWD. Holden > Mitsubishi (people may like Mitsubishi better for many reasons; not every one is stupid enough to hop on the Holden bandwagon). It should be Holden < Mitsubishi

As you said you'd much rather buy a 380 coz u would have $9k left in your pocket; which is sensible.

It just really irritates me that you can make many statements that the VE is better without core details relating to fuel economy, warranty or weight of the car having not been released. Along with the fact that the base model Commodores features (or should I say neccessity) list his absolutely sh*t for a car which has had $1billion poured into it.

What Australian cars don't come with a full size spare?
What cars don't standardize A/C across the range?
What car has a shorter warranty then opposing brands (unreleased but I doubt they'd match MMAL's warranty)?
What car doesn't have side airbags as a standard feature across the range?
What car has cheap looking door handles and mirror on its base model?
What car steals designs from other previous generation cars and tries to master them in an 'all new' model?
What car is over priced in some variants?
What car has a dated 4 speed automatic transmission?
What car has a lacking engine then its competitors?
What car has worse fuel economy then its competitors (even though figures unreleased its expected to be HIGHER then 380 auto)?
What car has ESP as a standard feature (to comment on the one good thing about it)?
What car still closely resembles it's previous generation model in some of its new model variants?
What car isn't all its hyped up to be?
What car would I buy a 380 over?
Answer: The VE Commodore

Before you make statements please look at the specifications of both the 380 and Commodore of comparable RRP and then judge which is a "better car".

I agree that in some variants the VE is better, but given the price difference this is acceptable. When comparing models of similar price between the DB 380 (SII) range and the VE Commodore range the 380 offers superior equipment levels, (in my opinion) better styling, better warranty, better service, a better quality and better fuel economy (that's without mentioning everything).

Fk, if MMAL had $1,000,000,000+ to spend on a car I reckon they could've come up with something better then the VE and probably would've spent it wisely on producing a few different cars to cover more market segments :P

P.S. Maybe it's a good thing you havn't been here for a month lol

Glad to see we got that out of the way :D

What car has a shorter warranty then opposing brands (unreleased but I doubt they'd match MMAL's warranty)?...
What car has worse fuel economy then its competitors (even though figures unreleased its expected to be HIGHER then 380 auto)?...
What car has ESP as a standard feature (to comment on the one good thing about it)?...
What car isn't all its hyped up to be?
What car would I buy a 380 over?
Answer: The VE Commodore
Hey adz89, it's good to see I'm not the only one here so passionate about Mitsu and 380!:D
As you no doubt have figured, VP Vanquish hasn't posted here for a while with good reason.

Just to touch on a couple of points, sources say that VE will be offered with a 3yr warranty (km coverage not known yet) across the board but GMHolden will consider increasing this dependant on VE's initial success. Also as far as the standard 4sp Omega goes, fuel consumption is all but confirmed to be 11L/100kms.

Interesting how you refer to standard ESP as one of VE's good points. If you may recall a story going back several months featuring a Holden rep (don't know who it was but I don't think it was Denny Mooney) left speechless by the reporter as to why Holden don't "standardise" ESP on all it's vehicles. Now at the time ESP was doing the rounds of the airwaves due to several road accidents caused by loss of control. What this means is that Holden have had a knee-jerk reaction to this by having ESP standard on VE = increased production costs = increase of original RRP. Sadly for Holden (evil sarcasm evident:badgrin:) this won't get them an extra star with ANCAP.


RWD > FWD
Holden > Mitsubishi
VE Commodore > Mitsubishi 380
:blah: :roll:
YAWN, YAWN, YAWN...

Yeah watch your-self VP Vanquish or adz89 might send some heavies around with the toe-cutters.:shock:

Yeah watch your-self VP Vanquish or adz89 might send some heavies around with the toe-cutters.:shock:
Yeah but one can get by without toes, though a toe cutter would make for good foreplay...

For the heavies to carry out, may I suggest a nutcracker???:shifty: :nutkick:

Hey adz89, it's good to see I'm not the only one here so passionate about Mitsu and 380!
As you no doubt have figured, VP Vanquish hasn't posted here for a while with good reason.

Just to touch on a couple of points, sources say that VE will be offered with a 3yr warranty (km coverage not known yet) across the board but GMHolden will consider increasing this dependant on VE's initial success. Also as far as the standard 4sp Omega goes, fuel consumption is all but confirmed to be 11L/100kms.

Interesting how you refer to standard ESP as one of VE's good points. If you may recall a story going back several months featuring a Holden rep (don't know who it was but I don't think it was Denny Mooney) left speechless by the reporter as to why Holden don't "standardise" ESP on all it's vehicles. Now at the time ESP was doing the rounds of the airwaves due to several road accidents caused by loss of control. What this means is that Holden have had a knee-jerk reaction to this by having ESP standard on VE = increased production costs = increase of original RRP. Sadly for Holden (evil sarcasm evident) this won't get them an extra star with ANCAP.

Yeah I read about the fuel consumption for the VE V6 4spd auto being 11l/100km (I seen the picture of the sticker on the LS1 forum), but as it hasn't been confirmed yet due to the pre-production vehicles having slightly different figures obtained; so I know they may differ slightly when they are confirmed.

Even if the 4spd Auto VE Commodore does obtain 11l/100km it still uses more fuel then a 380 (marginal, but notable). I think this figure would be questionable if the engine itself has not advanced so much from the previous Alloytech in the VZ V6 models. I would love to drive the VE around and see the "real-world" figures obtained (I would be dumbfounded if they weren't higher then 11l/100km).

The reason I think the standard ESP system is a positive thing on the features list is that without it the VE doesn't really have anything (especially on the lower spec models) that really makes it stand out and say "hey that car has something other cars don't offer". The ESP system, which would've made the RRP slightly higher ($9k higher for the Omega lol), is probably the only noted positive in the Omega and Berlina vehicles when looking at the rest of the equipment offered. Even though they were criticised previously for not having it as an option on the VZ Exec. all they had to do was make it an option on the VE Omega rather then making it standard. While it probably is a good move to be the first Australian manufacture to include it as standard equipment, it isn't the best thing if the RRP pricing of the car is considerably higher then (in my opinion) "better" cars offered by competing manufactures.

Yeah but one can get by without toes, though a toe cutter would make for good foreplay...

For the heavies to carry out, may I suggest a nutcracker???

Yeah watch your-self VP Vanquish or adz89 might send some heavies around with the toe-cutters.

How about we make a pack? We'll all go round their tomorrow night. I'll do the cutting if you hold him down :bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl:

How about we make a pack? We'll all go round their tomorrow night. I'll do the cutting if you hold him down
Nah come on this is getting out of hand, I mean it's just facken sick. Here you are asking me to hold him down when I'm gonna get all his fear sweat all over me. Mate leather straps and handcuffs are the way to go:badgrin::bowrofl:

Yeah then we'll have the traditional aussie snag on the barbie:P

But be aware these plans are of utmost confidentiality:shhhh: :shifty:

Just to touch on a couple of points, sources say that VE will be offered with a 3yr warranty (km coverage not known yet) across the board but GMHolden will consider increasing this dependant on VE's initial success. Also as far as the standard 4sp Omega goes, fuel consumption is all but confirmed to be 11L/100kms.

Not quite yet. Those figures were captured by a former at LS1.com.au.

The reason Holden has held off fuel figures was because it found out its testing was not quite right. Apparently the new commodores are a little bit more efficient than previously thought.

From a Drive article
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...ID=18639&vf=12


After numerous enquiries this week, Drive understands that Holden had supplied fuel consumption figures to the federal Department of Transport and Regional Services (DOTARs), as it is required to do under Australian regulations before a new vehicle goes on sale.

However, Holden discovered late in the Commodore's development that the fuel consumption of production cars was better than the earlier figures it supplied to DOTARs. Drive understands Holden is retesting all models to resubmit to DOTARs so it can publish more favourable figures on the fuel rating labels and in the Green Vehicle Guide - something which Holden is within its rights to do.

Meanwhile, Holden has been obliged to stockpile the cars and not transport them to dealerships until DOTARS approves the fuel rating label figures and the labels are applied.


Yeah watch your-self VP Vanquish or adz89 might send some heavies around with the toe-cutters.

Z456 can you send them with nail cutters instead ?

......please look at the specifications of both the 380 and Commodore of comparable RRP and then judge which is a "better car".

Mate I can see the argument that your putting across but the TL and TJ had better specifications than the VX-VZ commodore as well. The motoring public are pretty one-eyed to facts like these, suprisingly more than any other retail market, brand loyalty is a massive thing in the car business - a great number of people who buy Holden - either fleet or private- know they want a Holden before they even formally start looking to buy. The VE will sell and it will sell very well.

One of the key aspects that Mitsubishi needs to address is the lack of brand loyalty and repeat buyers

Mate I can see the argument that your putting across but the TL and TJ had better specifications than the VX-VZ commodore as well. The motoring public are pretty one-eyed to facts like these, suprisingly more than any other retail market, brand loyalty is a massive thing in the car business - a great number of people who buy Holden - either fleet or private- know they want a Holden before they even formally start looking to buy. The VE will sell and it will sell very well.

One of the key aspects that Mitsubishi needs to address is the lack of brand loyalty and repeat buyers

While TL and TJ series were better then the VX-VZ Commodore at that time the Mitsubishi brand had the vehicle priced in line with other brands and offered a warranty which wasn't all that superior to other brands (better then Holden's old two year warranty though). The TL was packed full of equipment as standard, but unfortunately didn't have the looks (according to most people) to go with it. If the TL specifications update made its way into the TJ Magna in 2000 then it would've made the other brands look sour.

The difference is Mitsubishi have advanced in the amount of standard kit they have in the 380 (their large car), they have extended their warranty, they have deflated the price, improved quality and now offer us a better quality product then ever before. At the same time Holden havn't adapted to change and don't offer us a great deal more standard equipment in the VE when compared to the VY other then standard power windows and ESP. At the same time the price has increased and necessities such as standard aircondition aren't included, and a full size spare is now optional. Things such as side airbags which are increasingly making their way into alot of vehicles as standard features still aren't standard on the VE Commodore, despite it being released in 2006. I'm sure over time Holden will increase the amount of standard equipment in the VE to match the options consumers are buying with the car.

I understand that Mitsubishi are trying to intice people to the brand to rid themselves of the "poor quality" image that people still remember them from manufacturing in the 1980's. Problem exists that I have many friends who said "Don't buy a Mitsubishi, their engines and gearboxes suck", depsite the fact they have never owned one themselves. I realise that Holden do have loyal buyers and regardless of the fact that of how much standard equipment is included Holden have the expectation that the Commodore will sell and in what quantites they sell.

While I have nothing against the VE and think it is a considerably better car then the previous Commodore it is evident that the VE hasn't advanced in areas where it should've. Despite the previous the last generation Commodore had when it was released (VT) I don't think the VE will be as successful, based on pricing, standard features, better competition, fuel pricing and of course the declining large car segment. While I do hope it sells well I am intrigued as to how well it will sell.

Completely agree.

I still get comments re reliability like "why didn't you buy a Ford if you wanted longevity" despite the fact my KE has covered 236 000km with the replacement of a water pump only (alright - and some tyres, pads etc).
The biggest thing here is brand identity. The 380 would have to be three times better than the VE before anyone would consider buying and identifying with Mitsubishi. Most people like to be known as driving the latest XR6 Turbo of VE SS.
There's a reason why Ford and GM spend so much on racing in Australia.

Completely agree.

I still get comments re reliability like "why didn't you buy a Ford if you wanted longevity" despite the fact my KE has covered 236 000km with the replacement of a water pump only (alright - and some tyres, pads etc).
.

pfft ks with 370,000 original gearbox and engine lol

Completely agree.

I still get comments re reliability like "why didn't you buy a Ford if you wanted longevity" despite the fact my KE has covered 236 000km with the replacement of a water pump only (alright - and some tyres, pads etc).
The biggest thing here is brand identity. The 380 would have to be three times better than the VE before anyone would consider buying and identifying with Mitsubishi. Most people like to be known as driving the latest XR6 Turbo of VE SS.
There's a reason why Ford and GM spend so much on racing in Australia.
See, people who have sense agree (unlike some :rant:). Good to see your KE Verada is at 236,000 and still powering on, especially if the water pump is your only replacement :D
I reckon the 380 is twice as good as the VE :D Hopefully with a few adjustments to further include further features, hopefully obtain a 5-star safety rating and a 4 cylinder engine and the current extrememly competitive pricing it will make the car 3 times better and people will start buying it over the VE.


pfft ks with 370,000 original gearbox and engine
Holy sh&t that's a hell of alot on an original engine (and gearbox). Good to see it's still going mate and I hope it continues to last well into the future.

pfft ks with 370,000 original gearbox and engine lol
SH!T!!!:shock:

And I thought my '94 KS was doin well at 280,000kms, all original drivetrain too!

Funny thing is the only component I can think of that needed replacing was the water pump too... and the alternater after a big oil leak at 200,000kms sprayed the black stuff everywhere... at least it didn't do a VT and leak at 100,000kms lol

pfft ks with 370,000 original gearbox and engine lol


Ok, you win!:bowrofl:

pfft ks with 370,000 original gearbox and engine

Thats pretty good goTRICE!!!!!

The auto transmission on my trusty Holden gave up its life last Sunday, after well over 270k kms. Apart from that the car has been rock solid and have been driven through hell. I blame the mechanic.............full service including trans fluid means exactly that, idi0t never checked the trans fluid levels.

Problem 1 my sister was driving the car back to Canberra, so with her luck got stuck smack bang in the middle :( (Marulan), lucky for her my NRMA covered the tow back to Canberra :).

So out of 4 cars I regularly use - the zed is still unregistered, my Holden has trans problem, Ford still alive and my little Nissan pulsars' getting repaired (after a huge altercation with a gutter).

Great news Mitsubishi fans.............................


Funny how people automatically bag Holden, Ford and Mitsubishi for being inefficient (compared to Toyota).



Just in from Drive.com.au
http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/07/25/25camry1M_m.jpg

-Toyota released the new, sixth generation Camry today but it has the unlikely tag of being the thirstiest vehicle in its class.
-The new Camry's fuel rating label shows an average consumption of 9.9 liters per 100km, even though it is now available with a five-speed automatic transmission, which is designed to provide better economy at highway speeds.
-While Holden yesterday announced a fuel saving for its biggest-selling model in the new Commodore range, the new Camry's consumption remains the same as the model it replaced.........The car is a little heavier about 30kg than the old model
-The new Camry's main rivals are more fuel-efficient
-It's an embarrassing move for the maker which prides itself on fuel economy. The Camry is a globally-developed car, manufactured around the world, and the product of a much bigger development budget than the Commodore.
-A week ago, Toyota claimed that its V6 Commodore rival (called the Aurion and due on sale in November) would be more fuel-efficient than the new Holden Commodore
-The new Camry is available only with a 2.4-litre four-cylinder engine; the V6 will be exclusive to the Aurion.

From
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=18735&vf=12

Fk... That isn't good at all. It only uses less then a litre less on a combined cycle compared to the 380. That isn't good at all, I was expecting like 8.5 - 9.0l/100km. It's a Toyota and its a Camry so it will sell. I don't think it looks terrible, but at that angle and in that putrid colour it looks absolutely discusting (nearly as bad as the current Camry.

Thing I hate about the Camry is it's bonnet opening. It looks so ****ing obvious and really dorky. It isn't so bad on the darker colours; I'll just have to get use to it.

I really don't know about the grill either... looks like a bulldog or something. An improvement on the last Camry...yes........... but I don't know ...it'll have to grow on me. Even though it's a four banger is there any news on power figures or weight for it yet? Went to the Toyota website, and just found out there website is worse then Holdens and Mitsubishis (Mitsubishi's isn't that bad actually).

The camry should have the option (or standard) CVT trans... that would reduce economy a bit. The 5 speed Toyota have must be like Holdens 6 speed. The more gears you add the more fuel it uses lol

Heres the link from Toyota's website. It tell's you alot about the new Camry (hmm or does it?):
http://www.toyota.com.au/toyota/newcamry/#pageTitle=Home&idenifier=home

Yeah, um, love the body kit!:roll:

Looks so "last minute after-thought", and doesn't even exactly match the main body colour. I actually drove past one in that colour and didn't look to bad till I saw the front...

Thank God we still have our 380 as an alternative to the Falcodoreasaurus. Still you gotta envy Toyota - they're going so well they don't put in any effort for fuel economy coz they know their increasingly naive and gullible customers will simply walk up and hand them a cheque:roll:

I really don't know about the grill either... looks like a bulldog or something. An improvement on the last Camry...yes........... but I don't know ...it'll have to grow on me. Even though it's a four banger is there any news on power figures or weight for it yet?
Camry is around 30kgs heavier than outgoing model, and power/torque figures are said to be the same (no more than 115kW).

So if Toyota's "economy king" delivers fuel consumption of 9.9L/100kms, what's to be said of the Aurion? With 380 at 10.8L/100kms, VE at 10.9 and BF Falcon also at 10.9 (all in standard form), if Aurion were to match these figures or indeed better them it almost defeats the purpose of having the Camry in the first place. I mean saving 1L/100kms whilst sacrificing the Aurion's 192kW V6's many (I'd hazard a guess) performance and dynamic benefits is the stuff of wood-ducks... oh sh!t I forget they're Camry drivers, what a silly thing to say...:doubt: :roll:

GO 380 DAMMIT!:soapbox:

Exactly, this is what i've been trying to tell people i know for ages, just because you have a 4 cylinder doesn't mean you're better off! The only way you'd be better off is if you do a crapload of freeway/highway driving me thinks.

city driving and or lead foot intentions = high fuel consumpition, regaurdless of how many cyclinders ( to a certain extent)

I know we all bag out Holden and Toyota (I've been guilty too), but both Holden and Toyota have been very good at selling themselves, not only to the public, but also to Australian motoring journalists, who, while being lazy and displaying a surprising lack of knowledge, actually do drive (no pun intended) a lot of opinion about cars in Australia.

Holden has constantly pushed the "we're Australian" line, and Toyota have pushed the "we're reliable" line. Mitsubishi has never really pushed a consistent image, as they seem to want to be all things to all people. One minute they're sporty, then they're sensible, then they're efficient, then they're cheap, etc. Marketing for cars requires a long term strategy, not a short term one, because an image can hang around for years.

Anyway, the VE looks OK and has a Holden badge, and that's all that matters to Mr and Mrs Western Suburbs. All the people who constantly whinged on this forum about the lack of "technology" in the 380 should ask themselves why a car that has a thirsty, unrefined engine, ancient transmission, no climate control, and generally lags behind comparable European/Japanese cars in most areas, is now being hailed as a great car. The average person doesn't care about specifications, as long as the car is reasonably fast, looks OK, doesn't cost an arm and a leg to maintain and fits the image thay have of themselves. Unfortunately, Mitsubishi has no clear image.

Of course, I think the pricing is all skewed and is a mark of the arrogance of Holden. Hopefully the pricing will bite them in the a*se :D

Mitsubishi Australia have always pushed the "we're value for money" line/image, though in terms of their marketing slogans I still think the "spirited cars for spirited people" was the best.

That camry is just so fugly, it was'nt beatin with the ugly stick, it IS the ugly stick:shock:

Urgh, how can people buy them camry's, do they even own a pair of EYES:bowrofl:

That camry is just so fugly, it was'nt beatin with the ugly stick, it IS the ugly stick:shock:

Urgh, how can people buy them camry's, do they even own a pair of EYES:bowrofl:
Because people "believe" the camry is reliable and has terrific fuel economy.

http://wheels.carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?ArticleID=1910803&TabID=500483&Alias=wheelsau

Can someone read that for me and honestly say that isn't biased dribble?
The opening line:

Holden is showing through its pricing for the new VE models how serious it is about winning back buyers to the big-six family car market.
wtf? HELLO!? 380 = $27,990, for essentially the same thing? That's $7k cheaper!
It's reviews like this that annoy me.

http://wheels.carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?ArticleID=1910803&TabID=500483&Alias=wheelsau

Can someone read that for me and honestly say that isn't biased dribble?
The opening line:

wtf? HELLO!? 380 = $27,990, for essentially the same thing? That's $7k cheaper!
It's reviews like this that annoy me.
Haha. I just read that review... The standard 380 has all those toys except ESP, BUT, with the Commodore you have to pay extra for air conditioning and a spare tyre. Air conditioning has been in cars since the 70's.

What a stupid, one-eyed, fan-boi review.

Haha. I just read that review... The standard 380 has all those toys except ESP, BUT, with the Commodore you have to pay extra for air conditioning and a spare tyre. Air conditioning has been in cars since the 70's.

What a stupid, one-eyed, fan-boi review.
Yeh but the 380 cant do good skids bro................hehehe.

What I would like to see how the VE and the 380 cars compare to each other.Like the VE SS/380VRX.What you get more your money.I know the 380 is good value.

What I would like to see how the VE and the 380 cars compare to each other.Like the VE SS/380VRX.What you get more your money.I know the 380 is good value.
I don't think you'll a VE SS vs 380 VRX comparo...

More likely to be SV6 vs VRX, although the way Wheels are going anything could happen...:doubt:

[QUOTE=adz89]Thing I hate about the Camry is it's bonnet opening. It looks so ****ing obvious and really dorky. It isn't so bad on the darker colours; I'll just have to get use to it.
I really don't know about the grill either... looks like a bulldog or something.

Is that the best toyota can do?:nuts: Thank god for the 380:)

You really cant compare the VE and the 380. Mitsubishi is actively pushing the 380 by dropping its price. The VE is really an untested car which has not yet been rejected by the buying public, still their starting price is very competitive.

In saying at, the 380 is an excellent car thats very price competitive.

You really cant compare the VE and the 380. Mitsubishi is actively pushing the 380 by dropping its price. The VE is really an untested car which has not yet been rejected by the buying public, still their starting price is very competitive.

In saying at, the 380 is an excellent car thats very price competitive.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

The 380 series has been re-priced probably to what should have been the initial introductory scales.
The two cars are very comparable in regard to the market they are trying to appeal to. Both are family 5 seat V6 sedans.
The VE is an evolution of the previous model with incremental changes in most areas except the metal work.
The 380 is a major change to the previous Magna including even the name.
The VE builds on the previous model so "untested" is not how I would describe it. Unknown as to its acceptability for it's fuel consumption and large engine maybe closer to the mark.

You really cant compare the VE and the 380. Mitsubishi is actively pushing the 380 by dropping its price. The VE is really an untested car which has not yet been rejected by the buying public, still their starting price is very competitive.

In saying at, the 380 is an excellent car thats very price competitive.

The 380 is very price competitve and is (in my opinion) underpriced.

The VE Commodore starting price is not very competitive. If it was it should be priced at say $32,990 for the VE Omega with ESP, 16" Mags and standard A/C. Yes compared to the Falcon it is competitive, but remember that Ford are willing to discount the Falcon, where as the VE being a brand new model will probably not be discounted.

I beleive the discounting will no longer exist for a period of time after the release of Holden and Toyota's new product are on the market, and if that is the case the 380 is a smarter alternative for those who want a better product at a cheaper price.

The VE will probably not be rejected by the public, but I don't think it has the spark for Holded like the VT had. At the time of the VT's release, Ford had an inferior product, so the only real competition the Commodore had was the Magna. This time around Ford don't have a bad looking product which is similar in specification and price (to the VE). On the other hand Toyota have just launched a fugly Camry which people will buy because it is a loyal dog and people think that just because it has a 4 cylinder engine that it is going to be alot cheaper to run. Then you have Mitsubishi, with the 380 (ES), undercutting the VE in price by around $7,000, which matches every feature the VE has apart from the ESP, but, unlike the VE the 380 ES has a host of additional features including a full size spare, C/Control A/C, side airbags, a better automatic transmission, a better warranty, is probably better built, is slightly more economical and according to many views has a better standard V6 engine (just to name a few). While that is specifically targeted at comparisons with the base model the pricing trend continues (to an extent) when comparing the DB II (380) and VE (Commodore) range. If the 380 hadn't been discounted it still would have offered a better product at a better price, but would have only been cheaper by around $1,000; with the SII 380 pricing it reveals the fact that other Australian car makers may be charging too much for their product. Only time will tell if Holden will add to the current specification list of it's VE Commodore range and if it will reduce pricing of other Commodores in its range which it has deceitfully had labelled as huge price cuts compared to a VZ model sharing the same (variant) name; despite the fact the consumer gets significantly less of a car compared to the VZ range, making these price cuts between the two series insignificant.

The 380 is very price competitve and is (in my opinion) underpriced.
The VE Commodore starting price is not very competitive.

I think the bean counters at Mitsubishi thought the same way as you when the 380 was released - pity demand didnt meet supply at that price.

The 380 still however is a 2003 model car released in Australia 2005/06, despite the fact the car carries a great features list, I think it's struggling from a percieved pre-mature style ageing/US large car, meanwhile the Commodore is an overinflated Astra mated with a Cadillac that coppied Audi's interior and BMWs MFD/Aircon along the way. And unfortunately, this will win the Commodore sales.

I think time and time again it's been proven that the Ford and Holden Large RWD cars can do their own thing and still win the large car segment. I don't think the 380 will win any friends by purposefully competing and/or rubbishing either the Falcon or Commodore either. Until MMAL realises that RWD, or at least AWD is required for the competitive edge against these two, despite the fact that it's only a marketing point, they should concern themselves elsewhere.

As for what the 380 should concern itself with at this time is probably trying to take the sales from the Camry/Camry-Aurion lineup, Maxima, Accord and 6 sales AND RETAINING CURRENT MITSUB OWNERS.

And before I forget, the other seriously concerning issue with the 380 is that it was the first of the new generation large cars on the Australian market for the next 8 or so years.

I think the bean counters at Mitsubishi thought the same way as you when the 380 was released - pity demand didnt meet supply at that price.

The 380 still however is a 2003 model car released in Australia 2005/06, despite the fact the car carries a great features list, I think it's struggling from a percieved pre-mature style ageing/US large car, meanwhile the Commodore is an overinflated Astra mated with a Cadillac that coppied Audi's interior and BMWs MFD/Aircon along the way. And unfortunately, this will win the Commodore sales.

I think time and time again it's been proven that the Ford and Holden Large RWD cars can do their own thing and still win the large car segment. I don't think the 380 will win any friends by purposefully competing and/or rubbishing either the Falcon or Commodore either. Until MMAL realises that RWD, or at least AWD is required for the competitive edge against these two, despite the fact that it's only a marketing point, they should concern themselves elsewhere.

As for what the 380 should concern itself with at this time is probably trying to take the sales from the Camry/Camry-Aurion lineup, Maxima, Accord and 6 sales AND RETAINING CURRENT MITSUB OWNERS.

And before I forget, the other seriously concerning issue with the 380 is that it was the first of the new generation large cars on the Australian market for the next 8 or so years.
Hmm some interesting points. I agree 380 is the car that should have replaced the 3rd gen Magna after the TJ series in 2003. Oh well...:doubt:

Whilst I doubt Mitsubishi themselves are rubbishing Holden and Ford (although their fans certainly are!) you essentially hit the nail on the head. MMAL need 380 to capture the automotive soul and spirit that is within most Australians. Unfortunately Commodore acheives this to a tee.

You've gotta hand it to those at Fishermans Bend, they know how Aussies tick... MMAL don't. VE clearly has it's faults, but they're faults that we Aussies don't tend to care about, for instance:

1) Copied interior themes from Audi/Saab. The Aussie says "bloody awesome!"
2) The exterior is merely an evolution of a nine-year-old design. The Aussie says "**** that looks bloody awesome!"
3) Omega/Berlina have retained a 4 speed (!) auto. The Aussie says "**** look at the SS V!"
4) No real advance in engine technology to counteract fuel crisis. The Aussie says "oh crikey mate fully sick a V8! Lot's of pep, NOICE MAAATE!"
5) Questionable value, and less-than-competitive warranty. The Aussie says "by bloody oath I want that mean sexy beast!" etc etc

Then you have MMAL trumpeting the 380 with things like:

1) Best warranty. The Aussie says "um, that's nice, oh look there's a tree..."
2) Best built. The Aussie says "a Mitsubishi!? Bwahahahah" etc
3) Value for money. The Aussie says "mate, what's it got that this kickin hard new Commy doesn't?" (not caring of course about lower specced fleet driven models)
4) Cheapest to run. The Aussie says "that's nice... mmmmm no thanks"

So although fleets are most crucial in terms of business, the passion lies withing the Aussie private purchaser, of whom will take up just 25% of sales. This in turn creates public perception that 380 ain't that good, even though those in the know happen to know otherwise.

Now are Mitsubishi essentially onto a good thing with 380's ever-growing list of credentials? Absolutley. But does the average Australian care? Absolutely NOT - and that's sad:cry: But in saying all this though I don't believe the advent of VE will significantly impact on 380 sales.

Then there's a completely different argument altogether, and that is that MMAL have conceded themselves, well before 380 was released, that they do not plan to compete directly with Commondork and Falcon (even though it is) - coz they can't. Instead, "380 will lie somewhere in between them and the Camry (as well as other mid-large FWD cars)". 380 can be competitive in this segment, and I believe market share, more than core sales, will determine it's fate.

On a positive note though current 380 generation will not extend beyond 2011, when a fresh new car, whatever it may be, will take it's place - whether built here or in Japan. At that stage VE gen Commy will be 5 years old with 3 years remaining, and next gen "Orion" Falcon already 3 years into it's tenure.

Then there's a completely different argument altogether, and that is that MMAL have conceded themselves, well before 380 was released, that they do not plan to compete directly with Commondork and Falcon (even though it is) - coz they can't. Instead, "380 will lie somewhere in between them and the Camry (as well as other mid-large FWD cars)". 380 can be competitive in this segment, and I believe market share, more than core sales, will determine it's fate.The 380 is a brilliant car, I think it's the sales forces that are hurting it in the long run.

I think a lot of the problem was with the launch campaign. Everyone was bored with the drip fed information by the time the car was released, it was glazed over by most rather than grab attention for a period of time. The second was the lauch focus on the interior design, space and engine capacity.

Quite a few people like the unique dash pattern but couldn't live with it every day, I'm under the impression a lot of time was spent considering colour schemes but not the general feel and fit of the plastics - quite a few people say the plastics mismatch are are still hard and cold, and whine that the rear vents can't be turned off, or there is a lack of on door grab handles in the back seat. Things that you would have hoped would have been picked up early on in the adapation and editation of the US interior

Though probably the fundamentally worst thing they did was play on the whole engine capacity/interior size card.

The engine capacity to some makes it sound like a fuel guzzler. Aussies love big capacity v8s, but they don't give a stuff about v6 capacity. The V6 market, in my opinion, is more about the kws that anything else.

The trumphing of the interior space made it sound like it was intended to be a falcon and commodore competitor. To such an extent I believe Ford and Mitsubishi management were accusing each other of mismeasuring interior space.

Naming it 380 was another mistake - it's cold, and limits the imagination. Falcon, Accord, Maxima, Mustang, Viper, Typhoon etc - all cars which have a powerful non-automotive meaning or name. It's also a little too close for comfort to the naming series given by BMW and Mercedes, and aligns what is essentially a Japanese car with German brands. Imagine an salesman who is an Asian chap with the name Dietrich Atzert - you get what I mean.

Agree with your other points.

As for the warranty being the best in it's class, most people sadly believe its not worth the paper its written on as "MMAL are on the verge of liquidation", which is rather frustrating as a. Their not, b. If they were, they would pull a Nissan, not a Chrysler.

Well Dave I'm just grateful there are at least a small number of members on AMC with intelligence and have something relevent to say that is logical and makes sense.

Though probably the fundamentally worst thing they did was play on the whole engine capacity/interior size card.
Ha! I still cringe whenever I hear the closing statement at the end of their "love the road" campaign: "...we've created the ultimate big powerful spacious large car" EEK!:headbange What the deuce!?
And why use the word "large". That word in todays environment tends to have negative connotations. You know, "large" people. May as well have labelled it "Australia's ultimate overweight car.":doubt:

I believe they wasted money doing market research, they must have randomly picked out all the wood ducks throughout Australia and Tasmania. It's just common sense, what makes the average person in the market for a new car tick? Look at the boom in sales of the XR Falcon. What does it have? What are it's perceived qualities? The spirited Aussie buys a car with:

1) Design flair
2) Power and performance
3) Proven drivetrain refinement
4) "Suprise and delight" features

But let's go one step further and look at Camry. Why does it sell? What are it's "perceived" qualities in the public eye? The conservative, family-focused consumer looks for:

1) Safety and reliability
2) Economy
3) Value for money
4) Perceived quality

Do both cars share most of these characteristics? Yes. Both Ford and Toyota have their niched markets down to a tee. And our 380? Everything in between it would seem. I know it's easier said than done given MMAL's shoe-string development budget, but to say they were "convinced" 380 is a winner indicates they are sadly out of touch.

It's actually quite aggravating - almost like a waste of life with the 380. It's a great car and I love it. I'll never forget when I first drove one, it was a silver VRX Europcar vehicle. I had so much fun (:shifty:) I just had to pull over, call MMAL and tell them they're on to a good thing - "just make it look the way it drives, and market the thing properly for God's sake" I said. "Then you'd be on a winner".

As for the interior, well...:doubt: 380's interior colour and trim "expert", Chalisa Morrison, reckoned Mitsubishi "needed her help". I think not Chalisa, but thank you for trying. Was there no attention paid to the bad press the US Galant received in terms of it's rear door trims and cheap lower centre console?

All very aggravating... I'm off to bed.

How can you say that aussie car buyers don't care about features?
Last time i checked i'm aussie, and a car buyer, and i DO care about features and value for money. I find alot of aussies find value for money important. The problem i see is mitsubishi aren't really pushing it. Their latest adds aren't too bad, but nothing too exciting. i just hope this new revolution add campaign is a killer and people start to realise they aren't going anywhere.
380 > VE on specs, price, warranty, running costs, value.....but i guess it doesn't have a lion badge on it so it's not "cool" to drive a better vehicle :doubt:

How can you say that aussie car buyers don't care about features?
Last time i checked i'm aussie, and a car buyer, and i DO care about features and value for money. I find alot of aussies find value for money important.
Aussie buyers do care about features - the feature that most of the large aussie car buyers seem to want (want, Im not saying need) most is RWD. You should see the number of people on FFAU or LS1AU who say they would have considered the 380 for their family car if it was a RWD.

As for other features, the TJ-TW were jam packed full of features in base model spec to compete against the other 3, If we use the features logic then they should have moved more sales than what they did, likewise Hyundai should move more than what they do as well.

Aussie buyers do care about features - the feature that most of the large aussie car buyers seem to want (want, Im not saying need) most is RWD. You should see the number of people on FFAU or LS1AU who say they would have considered the 380 for their family car if it was a RWD.

As for other features, the TJ-TW were jam packed full of features in base model spec to compete against the other 3, If we use the features logic then they should have moved more sales than what they did, likewise Hyundai should move more than what they do as well.
Yes they should have, but it's the image problem mits has i guess.
Also you can't really call the opinions of a few car enthusiests that RWD would make it sell better, as it's already been proven that the majority of car buyers dont know if their car is FWD/RWD/AWD/Any drive at all lol.

How can you say that aussie car buyers don't care about features?
I never said that. I was analysing the bigger picture at why 380 isn't selling - and what it is that is in the deepest core of the mentallity of the avg Aussie car buyer.


Last time i checked i'm aussie, and a car buyer, and i DO care about features and value for money. I find alot of aussies find value for money important. The problem i see is mitsubishi aren't really pushing it. Their latest adds aren't too bad, but nothing too exciting. i just hope this new revolution add campaign is a killer and people start to realise they aren't going anywhere.
380 > VE on specs, price, warranty, running costs, value.....but i guess it doesn't have a lion badge on it so it's not "cool" to drive a better vehicle :doubt:
If Aussies in general do care about value for money and 380's all other selling points, why ain't it selling the way it should? Refer to my previous post. People in general (not everyone) won't care about a car's value/features etc if the car fails to hit an emotional connection with them. Then there's MMAL's perenial image problem.

This may all be hard to accept, and I don't like it either, but that's the way it is.

I never said that. I was analysing the bigger picture at why 380 isn't selling - and what it is that is in the deepest core of the mentallity of the avg Aussie car buyer.


If Aussies in general do care about value for money and 380's all other selling points, why ain't it selling the way it should? Refer to my previous post. People in general (not everyone) won't care about a car's value/features etc if the car fails to hit an emotional connection with them. Then there's MMAL's perenial image problem.

This may all be hard to accept, and I don't like it either, but that's the way it is.
Yeh i agree with you, their image is their main problem, which is such a shame!

Another factor here is mediocrity.

Ford and Holden keep putting out cars that just satisfy the majority of buyers for things like fuel economy, safety, interior fitting, transmissions for a few. Australians don't mind that these cars are not the best quality or innovative.

At one of the motor shows here a year or two back I looked at the AWD Magna transaxle versus Ford's BA control blade suspension. One looked like it had been hewn from a single billet of alloy and the other had been cut from a tractor still with weld dags all over it.

Australians will keep buying products that are just OK. Probably why Germans produce the cars they do and Japanese same.

I looked at at least six different cars prior to the 380 - in the end I came back to it because it gave the right blend of everything with quality and good engineering - and I eshewed Honda to boot (which was my preference at the beginning).

HOLDEN spent almost half its budget from the $1.09 billion VE Commodore project on engineering and testing the car.

More than 1000 engineers pored over the car, drove it more than 3.4 million kilometres in Australia and overseas, subjected it to minus-20 degrees and more than 50 degree heat and crashed it 79 times.

GM Holden executive director of engineering Tony Hyde said the $480 million engineering project had produced a quieter, safer, more reliable and refined Commodore than the VZ model.

However, he also revealed that the longer, wider, taller car is now more than 100kg heavier at 1690kg.

Weight gains were in the chassis up 33kg, body up 70kg, doors 5kg, exterior 6kg and electrics 10kg, offset by savings of 16kg in the interior.

Hyde said the added mass made the car stiffer and safer.

However, together with extra power and torque, it had also made it thirstier in some models.

The base model four-speed auto Omega is a marginal .1litres per 100km more fuel efficient than the VZ base model while the biggest saving was .4l/100km in the six-speed manual SV6.

However, five models with the new American-made six-speed auto from Cadillac recorded 0.3l/100km more.

While Holden will release a dual-fuel LPG/petrol Commodore later this year, a fugal diesel-powered model is at least 18 months away.

"We have a diesel engine on test in a Commodore at the moment, which we bought from Germany," he said.

"Its pretty good and we've asked how much, but GM (in Detroit) would have to make a decision and I have no idea how long that would be.

"In the current circumstances of high fuel prices where it is a pressing issue, it would still be 18 months to two years before we could have a diesel in a Commodore."

He dismissed suggestions of a hybrid in the near future.

"The car hasn't been designed with a hybrid in mind at all," he said.

Hyde was speaking during the second week of a three-week media launch program at their Port Melbourne headquarters.

Last week it was revealed the Commodore would come in seven models: the new base Omega, Berlina, SV6, SS, Calais and two special V variants in SS and Calais.

There will be five transmissions, including the new US six-speed auto, with all other transmissions upgraded.

This week, engineers have revealed a host of other facets about the new Commodore


The body is 50 per cent stiffer than VZ
Gaps and margins in the exterior panels and interior trim have been reduced
Repairs will be reduced thanks to a bolt-on front module and hinged doors
New flat-blade wipers will include washers
The French-made windscreen is made of sound-deadening glass
The headlight projections are whiter and wider
The heating system warms up 15 per cent faster
There are more air vents inside the cabin
The glovebox is 50 per cent larger
There are more storage bins and bigger drink holders
The battery is now located in the boot with jump-start posts in the engine bay.
__________________

Some info from another site (Car Point I think)

French Windscreen - Doh!
Battery in the boot!
Perhaps the bigger glovebox and faster heater will make up for the worse fuel economy?

I still stick by my original remarks. People who spend their time here quibbling over fuel economy, technology, price, etc. are missing the point. Most people buy cars based on image, not specs.

Holden will do OK because they've been very, very good at building up a particular image. Their ads are all about young, trendy people doing cool things. It's about a car as a lifestyle accessory. Holden appeals to the heart, not the head.

Mitsubishi thinks they can win people over with slightly better fuel economy, or a better crash rating, etc. Yes, these things are important, but ONLY if your car makes it onto the short list in the first place. People decide on 2-3 cars that they like, and only then do they start comparing features. Mitsubishi needs to concentrate on getting on the radar by appealing to what people want... image. What does driving a Mitsubishi say to the average person? I'm old, dull, a bit of a cheap-skate. This image was brought about by years of trying to appeal to the "family" crowd, a failure to build on success, poor after sales service and ridiculous discounting.

Holden, on the other hand, pushed their V8 Models, their sport models, and their luxury models. The average guy who buys a VE Omega thinks he's only one step away from a Statesman or a HSV. What does the average 380 buyer think about?

I still stick by my original remarks. People who spend their time here quibbling over fuel economy, technology, price, etc. are missing the point. Most people buy cars based on image, not specs.

Holden will do OK because they've been very, very good at building up a particular image. Their ads are all about young, trendy people doing cool things. It's about a car as a lifestyle accessory. Holden appeals to the heart, not the head.

Mitsubishi thinks they can win people over with slightly better fuel economy, or a better crash rating, etc. Yes, these things are important, but ONLY if your car makes it onto the short list in the first place. People decide on 2-3 cars that they like, and only then do they start comparing features. Mitsubishi needs to concentrate on getting on the radar by appealing to what people want... image. What does driving a Mitsubishi say to the average person? I'm old, dull, a bit of a cheap-skate. This image was brought about by years of trying to appeal to the "family" crowd, a failure to build on success, poor after sales service and ridiculous discounting.

Holden, on the other hand, pushed their V8 Models, their sport models, and their luxury models. The average guy who buys a VE Omega thinks he's only one step away from a Statesman or a HSV. What does the average 380 buyer think about?

I don't think people are missing the point by saying that the 380 has some bragging rights in many fields in comparison with the VE. Namely, price. Price is a determining factor of many purchases and if people realise they can get a 380ES for around $8k less then the VE Omega people are going to start to move away from the Holden brand; particuarly fleet buyers if Holden are no longer willing to discount the Commodore.

I really don't think that if someone drives a Mitsubishi they are "old, dull, a bit of a cheap-skate", infact I think that exact thing about the people who drive around in VS Commodores (and many other Commodore models for that matter), trying to hint to them that they are enriched with poverty surrounding them and that they should buy a different car.

Some may argue that older Mitsubishi models may have being subjected to that extent, but from alot of people I have spoken to (about Mitsubishi) don't have much to say which is 'bad' about 3rd Gen Magna's (or the 380) apart from the fact that it is FWD, and for that reason, and that reason only they would prefer another car (Which is RWD) over one. On the other hand I do have heard story's about problems with the 1st Gens and 2nd Gens, resulting in them changing vehicle brands.

I agree that Mitsubishi does need to fix up their image, and as we type on this forum it is getting closer and closer till the day (early next year) Mitsubishi try and rectify the 380's image problem by modifying the looks of the VRX model by adding a different body kit, some styling tweaks, more standard features and a more powerful (190kw+) engine. If the 380VRX kept its current pricing structure and they launched this updated 380 model effectively it will no doubt give the car (and the brand) some more credibility.

While you claim Mitsubishi have being aiming at families, are you trying to say that Toyota, Holden or Ford don't want families buying their cars? I beleive all large cars are often referred to as family cars and all 4 Australian manufactures will label their cars what ever they want to get them in to the driveways of households, and that means using a family image to sell their car they won't hesitate to do so because there are alot of families around (anyone here NOT from a family ? :nuts:).

Unlike your suggestion Holden have pushed the entire Commodore range instead of one particular product. In other words they have pushed the brand into households by rapidly making it visible in the media and always having positive media attention (How often do you see stories about the posibility of GMH closing down?)

I also don't agree that they make a customer of a VE Omega beleive that they are one step away from a Statesman or HSV. Heck, there is alot of difference between the base model and a statesman; more then ever has the difference been more evident. As for a HSV and a VE Omega, there is no comparison that should be made, other then the fact that the both share the same platform and have styling similarities (heck HSV's always look alot better then a shtty bottom of the line Commodore). Perhaps the driver of the VE Omega thinks about one day purchasing a more expensive Commodore and or Statesman, but I don't beleive he thinks he is only "one step" away from one. Otherwise that "average guy" (There are alot of average guys) would all purchase the VE Omega and their would be no need to produce other variants of the Commodore.

The 380 on the other hand is cheaper in price and doesn't have such large variations between the price of each model variant. Therefore if someone wants a 380VRX they are most likely to purchase one even though there is a 380ES around $8k cheaper. Therefore, if someone doesn't want a 380VRX and only wants a 380ES for whatever reason he/she would purchase it based on their intentions and may not want/need the extra features and/or styling that is apparent in the 380VRX model.

I would choose the 380 over the VE any day. I seriously doubt fuel consumption will change when the car is heavier and has the same powertrain. The powertrain in the current VZ is woeful. The old 3.8 Litre V6 might have been rough, but it was a much better drive than the Alloytec joke.

I have driven 380, BF and VZ and the VZ is the loser of the pack.

adz,

I just want to point out that I am talking about perceptions, not facts. I agree that the 380, overall, is a better car. That is not the issue. In fact, your argument is exactly what I'm railing against :P You can't win people over with facts, you have to win them over with emotion. They should feel like their car makes a statement about them, and the statement shouldn't be "I'm fuel efficient" or "I saved money". People who want to be known for saving fuel buy a Prius.

For example, look at VW ads. Their diesel engines are ridiculously efficient, but their ads put the emphasis on style, quality, being upmarket, etc.

And yes, I agree that the "family" car segment is important. However, I disagree that there is no similarity between an Omega and an HSV. Motor racing costs Holden and Ford millions a year, but they spend the money because they want people to make that mental link between their "family" car and performance. If Holden pulled out of racing tomorrow, you can bet that Commodore sales would go down 20-30% over the following year.

Why do you think the Lancer is the only Mitsubishi model that seems to be doing OK? It's because of the EVO mythology that surrounds it.

Unfortunately, Mitsubishi has done such a poor job for so long, that a few months of advertising isn't going to turn their fortunes around. I think Mitsubishi will survive, but I think it will be 2-3 years before they can consider themselves a competitor in the large car space (assuming they do things right from now on).

Gekko,
I kind of agree more with what you're getting at. The 380 has alot more then the VE, but Mitsubishi market the car incorrectly to tempt a larger spectrum of buyers into buying it. As in they don't put and passion in to their advertisements (Well they havn't recently).

About the HSV thing vs. Omega I agree that they both resemble the same car. But only in the design of the car, with the Omega appearing alot blander. The HSV on the other hand looks alot better and performance wise is significantly better then the Omega (but costs alot more too).

I also agree that Mitsubishi's problem is not short term fix. Though I am sure that with determination and good planning it should be accomplishable. Obviously their advertising team needs to 'move on', something that we will hopefully see in the next few days, but, at the same time they need to pernamently keep the viewer/listener involved and really promote their products to give them some much needed exposure.

Speaking of advertising (which generates sales), I just hope the July sales figure (should be released Friday) is on the up.

Who gives a ****?
Mitsu designed the car to take sales from the medium to large segment after people started deciding they didn't really want a full large car.

That's exactly why I bought one.

They didn't design it to compete directly with the Commodore or Falcon. Sales will further increase as other people gradually come to the conclusion I did.

Who gives a ****?
Mitsu designed the car to take sales from the medium to large segment after people started deciding they didn't really want a full large car.

That's exactly why I bought one.

They didn't design it to compete directly with the Commodore or Falcon. Sales will further increase as other people gradually come to the conclusion I did.

Very true. The good thing about the 380 is that if marketed successfully is that it could fill two market segments. Being marketed both a large car and a medium car that is; i.e. medium car size looks, but large car space along with medium car fuel economy.

I hope (as you said) that sales will increase over time, which I find true as the car is gradually getting alot more exposure on Australian roads and most of the people I have spoken like the look/features of the 380 now that they see them more often.

Hopefully an even better sales figure for July!

I don't think people are missing the point by saying that the 380 has some bragging rights in many fields in comparison with the VE. Namely, price. Price is a determining factor of many purchases and if people realise they can get a 380ES for around $8k less then the VE Omega people are going to start to move away from the Holden brand; particuarly fleet buyers if Holden are no longer willing to discount the Commodore.

True. And this is how rational investors should behave. The problem is we now live in an image conscious society (which I disagree with) and people are prepared to pay a premium for something which supports the image they want to portray even if they are paying more for an inferior product. Eg bottled water, designer sunglasses etc


I really don't think that if someone drives a Mitsubishi they are "old, dull, a bit of a cheap-skate", infact I think that exact thing about the people who drive around in VS Commodores (and many other Commodore models for that matter), trying to hint to them that they are enriched with poverty surrounding them and that they should buy a different car.
Equivalent model Commodores are worth more than Magnas. Common logic would suggest a Magna owner calling a Commodore owner a cheap-skate is an oxymoron.


Some may argue that older Mitsubishi models may have being subjected to that extent, but from alot of people I have spoken to (about Mitsubishi) don't have much to say which is 'bad' about 3rd Gen Magna's (or the 380) apart from the fact that it is FWD, and for that reason, and that reason only they would prefer another car (Which is RWD) over one. On the other hand I do have heard story's about problems with the 1st Gens and 2nd Gens, resulting in them changing vehicle brands.
This is not true. Look at the Toyota Camry. It sells a lot better than the Magna ever did and they were both FWD. Common dislikes about the Magna extend well beyond it being a FWD vehicle. In fact being FWD is probably the 4th or 5th most disliked aspect of the Magna. Poor resale value, weak image, dated interiors, large turning circle, and dodgy automatic gearboxes are also high on the list.


I agree that Mitsubishi does need to fix up their image, and as we type on this forum it is getting closer and closer till the day (early next year) Mitsubishi try and rectify the 380's image problem by modifying the looks of the VRX model by adding a different body kit, some styling tweaks, more standard features and a more powerful (190kw+) engine. If the 380VRX kept its current pricing structure and they launched this updated 380 model effectively it will no doubt give the car (and the brand) some more credibility.
You're right. The problem is the car industry is such a competitive industry that you only have 1 opportunity to present a car in a good light. After releasing the AU Falcon, Ford worked tirelessly on the AU 2 and AU 3 and threw in a lot of additional features for free and significantly lowered prices with no success. It was still an "AU" so to speak and Ford was forced to spend around $500m? on producing the BA to dig itself out of a hole. The other thing is Mitsubishi doesn't really have the finance available to re-market the 380.


Unlike your suggestion Holden have pushed the entire Commodore range instead of one particular product. In other words they have pushed the brand into households by rapidly making it visible in the media and always having positive media attention (How often do you see stories about the posibility of GMH closing down?)

It's called advertising. An area where Mitsubishi has recently been quite frankly terrible. "Mitsubishi 380. Love the road"? wtf?


I also don't agree that they make a customer of a VE Omega beleive that they are one step away from a Statesman or HSV. Heck, there is alot of difference between the base model and a statesman; more then ever has the difference been more evident. As for a HSV and a VE Omega, there is no comparison that should be made, other then the fact that the both share the same platform and have styling similarities (heck HSV's always look alot better then a shtty bottom of the line Commodore). Perhaps the driver of the VE Omega thinks about one day purchasing a more expensive Commodore and or Statesman, but I don't beleive he thinks he is only "one step" away from one. Otherwise that "average guy" (There are alot of average guys) would all purchase the VE Omega and their would be no need to produce other variants of the Commodore.

You're right. On a similar topic, a lot of people have criticized the VE Commodore (and other manufacturers) for keeping the 4 speed auto in base form etc. To Holden, the base model Commodore is REALLY the Berlina/SV6. The Omega is more or less added primairly for fleet buyers. Fleet buyers don't care about 0-100km/h performance times of the 5 speed or 6 speed auto. They don't really care how many kilowatts is at the engine. As long as the car has a low price tag with a decent resale value, and at least looks and drives half decently, they will consider buying it. This is why if you research today's market, you will find a lot of employees, (reps etc) now being given cars like the Ford Territory and XR6 Falcon primarily because of their resale value. The company upgrades the car every 24 months.


The 380 on the other hand is cheaper in price and doesn't have such large variations between the price of each model variant. Therefore if someone wants a 380VRX they are most likely to purchase one even though there is a 380ES around $8k cheaper. Therefore, if someone doesn't want a 380VRX and only wants a 380ES for whatever reason he/she would purchase it based on their intentions and may not want/need the extra features and/or styling that is apparent in the 380VRX model.

This is true, but the increased revenue received by Mitsubishi from people "going up" a model since there was hardly a price increase, is also offset (at least to a certain extent) by a loss in sales. There would be potential 380 models like a LPG model, V8 model, RWD/AWD model etc that do not exist and therefore turn buyers away and onto another brand. At the moment, the VE series for example has 8 different Commodore models, 4 different Calais models, 2 different Berlina models, 2 different Statesman models and 2 different Caprice models. Then there is also the VE Utes which will be released and then there are the HSV model cars which will be released. So it is also important to also factor in the NUMBER of models available too. Sure the VE for example might have the Omega, Berlina, Calais, and Statesman for example and people may say that there is a big jump there which is true at first glance. When you factor in all the variations of each model in between though it's pretty much a smooth and small price increase between every model ensuring the consumer has EXACTLY the features and type of car they desire.

I would choose the 380 over the VE any day. I seriously doubt fuel consumption will change when the car is heavier and has the same powertrain. The powertrain in the current VZ is woeful.

A tune is a wonderful thing, especially for Holden V8’s. More power and more economical.

Holden’s V6 haven’t been tuned properly for years. It’s not that Holden aren’t able to tune the engine, it’s because they don’t want to. Holden are particularly masterful at the incremental increases game. Compare the VZ V6 Alloytec to other High Feature V6 found on top of the line American cars - the difference is like night and day.

adz,

I disagree that there is no similarity between an Omega and an HSV. Motor racing costs Holden and Ford millions a year, but they spend the money because they want people to make that mental link between their "family" car and performance. If Holden pulled out of racing tomorrow, you can bet that Commodore sales would go down 20-30% over the following year.

Yet the Commodore/Falcon on the track is nothing like the one you buy from the local dealer. Suspensions are vastly different (they are the same in both V8SCs, in reality they are not), the engines are nothing alike (neither come with a OHV 5.0L V8).

A tune is a wonderful thing, especially for Holden V8’s. More power and more economical.

Holden’s V6 haven’t been tuned properly for years. It’s not that Holden aren’t able to tune the engine, it’s because they don’t want to. Holden are particularly masterful at the incremental increases game. Compare the VZ V6 Alloytec to other High Feature V6 found on top of the line American cars - the difference is like night and day.
But are the HFV6 engines in the US the ones built in Canada?
Holden has always been **** it building things. Look at the Camira. Do a search on the "J Car" and it was a lauded little car elsewhere, in Australia it was crap because Holden put them together like crap.

This is not true. Look at the Toyota Camry. It sells a lot better than the Magna ever did and they were both FWD. Common dislikes about the Magna extend well beyond it being a FWD vehicle. In fact being FWD is probably the 4th or 5th most disliked aspect of the Magna. Poor resale value, weak image, dated interiors, large turning circle, and dodgy automatic gearboxes are also high on the list.
This was the only thing that got me with your post buddy. First of all the 380 isn't a Magna. If you're comparing Magnas to Camrys, I have to ask why? We're not in that era anymore, move on. If you're talking about the 380- then you are horribly, horribly wrong and/or missinformed. The biggest gripe from 99% of people on LS1 and Ford Forums about the 380 is that it is FWD. That is only because they have never driven a FWD car before and can't do burnouts in it.

Just to shoot down your "most disliked aspects of the Magna" Assuming we're now talking about the 380, resale value is the best among locally made v6 family sedans, image is growing stronger everyday as people realise what a great car the 380 is, interior is nice apart from the steering wheel, turning circle is huge admitted and the 5 speed auto has always been a great gearbox.

Very true Disciple. In fact 380's (and Magna's for that matter) 5sp auto gearbox is unanimously regarded by the industry as the best ever amongst aussie built cars, and then some. Only Falcon's new 6sp is considered better.

Latter day Magna's and the 380 are V6 only vehicles (unfortunate given todays environment), whilst Camry is also available in a 4-pot - Mitsubishi have always outsold Camry V6 vs V6 - so do your homework Vanquish.


A tune is a wonderful thing, especially for Holden V8’s. More power and more economical.

Holden’s V6 haven’t been tuned properly for years. It’s not that Holden aren’t able to tune the engine, it’s because they don’t want to. Holden are particularly masterful at the incremental increases game. Compare the VZ V6 Alloytec to other High Feature V6 found on top of the line American cars - the difference is like night and day.
WTF?:nuts:

So Holden DON'T WANT TO properly tune it's V6's. Good God... and now your making reference to American cars. And? If the difference between Alloytec and Yank engineered donks is as night is to day, then when they're compared to 380's donk it must be venus and mars...

Here's something for you to ponder: what's the difference between you and a computer? One only needs to punch information into a computer ONCE and it sticks. Just bang your head against a wall and ask yourself "where am I?"

Edit: anyone think this thread is wearing a bit thin? It's becoming quite laborious to continually break down illogical posts by these Holden cretins.

i saw the new ss in the flesh today, it looks like they hired a team of ford engineers to come in and design the new holdens cause, the front and back look almost identical. which means i can't complain about the styling cause it looks better then the previous one,

This was the only thing that got me with your post buddy. First of all the 380 isn't a Magna. If you're comparing Magnas to Camrys, I have to ask why? We're not in that era anymore, move on. If you're talking about the 380- then you are horribly, horribly wrong and/or missinformed. The biggest gripe from 99% of people on LS1 and Ford Forums about the 380 is that it is FWD. That is only because they have never driven a FWD car before and can't do burnouts in it.

Just to shoot down your "most disliked aspects of the Magna" Assuming we're now talking about the 380, resale value is the best among locally made v6 family sedans, image is growing stronger everyday as people realise what a great car the 380 is, interior is nice apart from the steering wheel, turning circle is huge admitted and the 5 speed auto has always been a great gearbox.



Some may argue that older Mitsubishi models may have being subjected to that extent, but from alot of people I have spoken to (about Mitsubishi) don't have much to say which is 'bad' about 3rd Gen Magna's (or the 380) apart from the fact that it is FWD, and for that reason, and that reason only they would prefer another car (Which is RWD) over one. On the other hand I do have heard story's about problems with the 1st Gens and 2nd Gens, resulting in them changing vehicle brands.


I was clearly talking about the Magna as Adz89 was talking about Magnas, specifically 3rd gen Magnas. The reason I compared Magnas to Camrys was to show that there were other things that consumers didn't like about the Magna other than it being FWD which Adz89 said. This is evidence from the popularity of the Toyota Camry for so many years, which shows a FWD car can still sell quite well. The reason I am illustratiing this is to show that just like the Camry can sell as a FWD, and 380 can also sell as a FWD. There are still a few things which is preventing the 380 from being sold and the main few things aren't that it's a FWD car. In fact most things aren't even related to the car itself, they relate to the poor advertising and marketing decisions of Mitsubishi. If you gave the Mitsubishi 380 to Holden management whilst still selling under the name "Mitsubishi", I can guarantee you the car would sell much much better. The Mitsubishi 380 is like a good sports team with a bad coach and management.

I agree the characteristics that consumers didn't like about the Magna have definitely not all carried over to the 380. The gearbox is as you said VERY good. I know I have put it to the test several times! It's incredibly smooth. The interior is also much much better. I actually like the steering wheel, and the turning circle isn't that bad. Not as bad as the 3rd gen Magna and definitely not as bad as the 2nd gen Magna.The only problem I see for Mitsubishi in the 380 is people STILL perceiving it as the replacement Magna and therefore falsely assuming that it is very much like a Magna. The only other thing is that the car looks completely different to the Magna, but the frontal styling with the Boulay effect is still very recognisable. I heard 2 people who were standing front on to the base model 380 ask if that was the new Lancer.

The main reason why the 380 has a strong resale value (so far) is that a) it's price has been significantly reduced, b) Not that many have been sold new and therefore not many have been sold second hand, c) The current competition is the Old Camry, the Old VZ Commodore and the Old BF Falcon. The VZ Commodore is based from the 1997 VT Commodore design and the BA Falcon an adaption from the 1998 AU Falcon. When the new Camry and Commodore are released, you will probably see a more accurate measurement of resale value on the 380. Any all-new car competing against outdated competitors will maintain a strong resale value in the short-term. The TE Magna had a strong resale value all the way From April 1996 when it was released, then plummetted when the VT Commodore came out in August 1997.

Look at the Toyota Camry. It sells a lot better than the Magna ever did and they were both FWD.



Latter day Magna's and the 380 are V6 only vehicles (unfortunate given todays environment), whilst Camry is also available in a 4-pot - Mitsubishi have always outsold Camry V6 vs V6 - so do your homework Vanquish.



I said that Camrys outsell Magnas which they have done. I never said that V6 Camrys outsell V6 Magnas, because I know that they don't. That's like saying Magnas outsell the world's most popular car - the Corolla, because Magnas outsell Corolla V6 vs V6 whilst ignoring the proportion of 4 cylinder Corollas which are sold relative to 6 cylinder Corollas - 100%.

End of the day I still like Magnas, Fords and Holdens far better than the Camry.

DRIVE IMPRESSIONS FROM CARSALES

http://tcimages.net/DisplayImage.aspx?PD=11049630&S=ISS

VE DRIVEN: SS V (August 2006)



Words - Joe Kenwright

The new VE SS V is the Australian V8 muscle car that spells the end of the ‘lead-tipped arrow’

Australian Launch
Melbourne, August 2006

What we liked
>> Awesome performance
>> Huge braking and handling reserves
>> Complete safety package

And not so much
>> It needs a lot of road
>> Still thinking
>> Still thinking



There have been some good, even great Commodore V8 models, but few of them felt like they hadn’t reached the limits of the original design. Despite its massive performance the VE SS V does not feel even close to placing its VE platform under duress.

In terms of a local V8 muscle car, it drives like nothing else -- end of story.

It’s not overstating the point that all other icon Aussie performance models will be lumped together as those that appeared before the SS V and those that had to lift their game to even catch a glimpse of its handsome but fast disappearing rump. Simply Holden has moved the game on...

The secret, of course, is despite the big upgrades in engine, transmissions and rear axle, the VE clean sheet design has generated near perfect 50:50 weight distribution. It also has one of the best ESP systems ever on a muscle car which allows you hang it out at the hoary limits knowing there is a giant safety net ready to put you back in your place.

It also has upsized brakes that you can stomp on without the normal Commodore feeling that you might push the pedal and the firewall into the engine. The solidity of all the controls, the total lack of complaint or sign of any duress, no matter how hard you stoke the SS-V, is commendable.

Most importantly, while it is highly entertaining it can revert to a highly sophisticated, even soothing family tourer in an instant. Consumption is going to be at least 2.0-3.0lt/100km thirstier than the SV6 but if you’re set on owning the hottest Holden-badged VE you won’t sweat the details?

The SS V highlights everything that is right about the new VE series. Where the VE sixes don’t always have enough torque and can be a touch raucous, the L98 V8 feels like it was built for the job (Ed: it was, wasn’t it?). The power and torque generated by a generous six-litre capacity make a nonsense of any extra weight. It is also silky smooth with the rumble of distant thunder. The grip of 19-inch alloys, the biggest standard wheel every offered by Holden history, leaves nothing to chance.

It is also the first VE level where Holden removes its corporate grey coats and goes wild with cabin colours. If you order an SS V in Ignition Orange, you can specify orange dash sections, orange perforated leather inserts and orange instrument cluster. So what if it feels like you have stepped into a Griffith orange grove, it’s fun and alive.

If you order a black or silver SS-V, you can order the same parts in red or orange -- all at no extra cost.

The SS V has just about everything you need including projector head lights, 6.5-inch multi-function screen, curtain airbags, dual zone climate control, 230W sound system with sub-woofer, unique profile leather wrapped sports steering wheel, premium inner doors with grab handles, full leather trim and alloy pedals.

Its great value at $51,990 compared to the old SS at $51,790. Even if you do have to pay $250 more for a full-sized spare wheel!

You heard right, it’s just $200 more than the old SS. Even without the extra equipment and the choice of a totally re-engineered six-speed M10 manual or all-new six-speed auto, the experience of a fast V8 model that can hold a neutral line through corners at high speed even on broken surfaces are worth several times the piddling premium.

The big-hearted wallop that can be called up with a flick of the Active Select transmission lever is unprecedented in any Holden. So too is the total lack of driveline shunt or vibration. Nor is there a murmur from the rear end as it processes this pile driver force.

Indeed, the overall SS V package leaves its $51,330 XR8 rival in serious trouble when the Ford is thirstier, not as quick and front heavy in comparison to the new Holden.

Feature for feature the SS V also has the Falcon pinned to the canvas. Even if you argue the XR8’s six-speed auto is significantly better than the SS V transmission, the L98 V8 has such an even spread of torque and superior power output that it doesn’t matter. And the way an SS V buyer can differentiate their car from lesser SV6 (for more click here) and SS models will make XR8 owners red and orange with envy.

Where the XR8 can only boast a lonely power bulge over the base XR6 models, the SS V starts out as more differentiated over other Commodores then adds quad exhausts, different headlights, rocket launcher tail lights, 19-inch alloys with their own spoke pattern, larger rear spoiler with black support structure and V badging.

The SS V also leaves the top-shelf V8 Euros suddenly staring at the law of ever diminishing returns.

VE DRIVEN: SS V (August 2006)



Words - Joe Kenwright

The new VE SS V is the Australian V8 muscle car that spells the end of the ‘lead-tipped arrow’



Yeah instead of the "lead-tipped arrow", it now a "nuclear warheaded bogan missile" :bowrofl:

Im afraid i'll take a factory turbo 6 (ford or even holden if they get around to making one) over a V8 anyday, easily powered up for minimal dollars plus if i wanted to pull my di*k over the V8 noise id rather do it driving a collectable classic like a old GTHO or monaro or yankie muscle car.

I'm not even gonna bother reading the VE SS V review because it's all biased crap anyway.


The SS V also leaves the top-shelf V8 Euros suddenly staring at the law of ever diminishing returns.

So they're now comparing a VE SS to an Audi RS4 and similair? Please. :bowrofl:

I'm not even gonna bother reading the VE SS V review because it's all biased crap anyway.


The SS V also leaves the top-shelf V8 Euros suddenly staring at the law of ever diminishing returns.

So they're now comparing a VE SS to an Audi RS4 and similair? Please.

I read the review, and as with a majority of Holden reviews, it is biased crap. Not so much as it was when the VZ was reviewed, but reviewers are still too supportive of a car that isn't that much better then its competition. The VE definitely deserves more credit then the VZ though (other then the full size spare).

But to compare this car to an euro V8's is pretty dodgy. I'd take an Audi RS4 or Mercedes C55 over its any day, regardless of it costing more. A few-year old Audi S6 would suit me fine :D

So they're now comparing a VE SS to an Audi RS4 and similair? Please

http://serv4.imagehigh.com/imgs//7562_IMG_1179.jpg


Well you’re free to believe the review or to think that it’s all a bunch of Holden conspired garb@ge.

As for me, I actually believe the review. Previous Holden’s have always had a Euro influenced platform. These platforms in all cases proved to be a bad thing, especially with Australia’s tougher road conditions.

As I’ve said before the most important development in the VE program are not the gadgets i.e. radio or aircond, but the Zeta platform. The chassis is stiff because its not rated for 270kw, but for 400kw (future LS7 anyone?). The chassis is also Holden’s first wholly owned and developed chassis. In my opinion the chassis is far more advanced and flexible than even the premium European offerings. After all the chassis was designed to carry several bodies, from several GM affiliates and several vehicles of different purposes.

The suspension is also extremely advanced and was benchmarked (as well as the chassis) against Europe’s best - like BMW M3 and M5. Heck E-series HSV’s will use suspension technology similar to those used on the second most powerful Ferrari’s, AudiTT’s, premium Cadillac’s and C6 Corvettes.

Top of the line HSV’s were always comparable in performance to premium European marques. Have a look at the comparison between the GTS, M5 and some mercs (when the GTS first came out). True the GTS fell flat on its face in terms of technology and refinement but definitely held its own in terms of driving dynamics. The drivers on that three way comparison at the Nuremburg included Mark Skaife, UK’s auto journalist and some top swede DTM touring car champion.

The Audi B7 RS4 it’s an excellent piece of machinery. However if Holden/HSV can get its quality in order then I’m sure that they could be a worthy challenger. This would especially be the case when they use the VE’s 4WD capabilities and the LS7 engine.

This was said 3 days ago, but what the hell...


I said that Camrys outsell Magnas which they have done. I never said that V6 Camrys outsell V6 Magnas, because I know that they don't. That's like saying Magnas outsell the world's most popular car - the Corolla, because Magnas outsell Corolla V6 vs V6 whilst ignoring the proportion of 4 cylinder Corollas which are sold relative to 6 cylinder Corollas - 100%.
Yep, that's what I was saying... you typical narrow-minded neanderthalean Holden troll:nuts: . I was refering (quite clearly) to the reason Camry's outsold Magna's, and that was the fact it had a 4 cylinder option. I don't know mate, maybe you need to read a lttle more slowly so you can take in the message being posted.

SIGH :doubt:

Yep, that's what I was saying... you typical narrow-minded neanderthalean Holden troll . I was refering (quite clearly) to the reason Camry's outsold Magna's, and that was the fact it had a 4 cylinder option. I don't know mate, maybe you need to read a lttle more slowly so you can take in the message being posted.

SIGH

LOL! Fk that is funny. Some people find it difficult to absorb information, or tend to skip some to avoid the topic.

Thing is, if Holden troll's had to think about things for even a second they'd realise Holden's are POS and wouldn't buy them. So instead of thinking about things --- they don't! They just make split descisions and post a response without logically specifiying what they are talking about -- namely because they incorrectly read the previous users post; arrogant b*stards.

This was said 3 days ago, but what the hell...


Yep, that's what I was saying... you typical narrow-minded neanderthalean Holden troll:nuts: . I was refering (quite clearly) to the reason Camry's outsold Magna's, and that was the fact it had a 4 cylinder option. I don't know mate, maybe you need to read a lttle more slowly so you can take in the message being posted.

SIGH :doubt:

If you can't beat a neanderthalean in a Holden, maybe it's time for your mum to upgrade her car?

Try re-reading your original post noob. Besides this thread is about the VE Commodore, you know the one that Holden makes? Instead of crying about it, why don't you troll in 99% of the other threads about your beloved Magna.

How do you troll about a Magna/380 on a Magna/380 forum? The monumental retardation created by your diatribe VP Vanquish, is only surpassed by your ignorance and stupidity.

Admins.

I have had individual posts deleted,for less than what is going on in this thread.

Why the brand bashing? Why is it allowed?

Cheer up girls... read http://wheels.carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?ArticleID=1636187&TabID=501060&Alias=wheelsau


Compared with like-minded metal, VRX was rated by McKay as a better drive than the SS Commodore (margin: one point). The VRX will beat a Clubsport R8 through the slalom (although forget trying to convince the boys at the bar of that, anywhere).

And although the margin by which VRX beats Clubsport through the cones is quite slim, the price differential isn’t: the R8 is more than $30K dearer – definitely more than just chump change. VRX will also round up the RenaultSport Clio, the Euro and the Supercharged Range Rover Sport over a lap of Oran Park’s North Circuit.

And while you are all crying in your Weeties about Holden this, and Mitsu that...

This is going to come along and whip all your butts..... :bowrofl:

http://wheels.carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?ArticleID=1634306&TabID=501060&Alias=wheelsau



Australia’s unique, 200kW 3.5-litre V6-only version of the 043L. Aurion.
Broad model range, from fleet car to spoilered sporties.
Launches in fourth quarter of this year, maybe November.

unfortunately mitsubishi has had 192kw out of a quad cam 3.5L since 91, just never saw it in the magna of course...
What i wanna know is where does the fwd start being too big a problem in terms of power to the wheels?

ps nice mum call, i think it's safe to say we're all a bit dumber for it.

^^^And don't forget the 199kW 3L in the '96 Diamantes (http://english.auto.vl.ru/catalog/mitsubishi/diamante/1996_1/16749/) lol. Although I'm pretty sure that wouldn't meet current emissions standards.

Australia’s unique, 200kW 3.5-litre V6-only version of the 043L. Aurion.
Broad model range, from fleet car to spoilered sporties.
Launches in fourth quarter of this year, maybe November.
200kW? I've only heard of the 190kW one :confused:

:eh: :naughty:


If you can't beat a neanderthalean in a Holden, maybe it's time for your mum to upgrade her car?

Try re-reading your original post noob. Besides this thread is about the VE Commodore, you know the one that Holden makes? Instead of crying about it, why don't you troll in 99% of the other threads about your beloved Magna.
But I can beat a Neanderthal (not "Neanderthalean":nuts: ) in a Commo in my mums TH, even though I never said that. So that basically destroys any argument you made there.

This may be a VE thread (and bloody hell can you think of something better than taunting me about what VE is?
you know the one that Holden makes?:nuts: ), but this is a MAGNA site - the site is bigger than the thread buddy, and I'm well within my rights to fly the flag for Mitsu with plenty of bias.

Go the 380 and check mate VeradaBoy:nutkick:

Now, now children, settle down. lol

unfortunately mitsubishi has had 192kw out of a quad cam 3.5L since 91, ..

Naturally aspirated??

I know that the 199kW 3L is naturally aspirated. It's the MIVEC model :D. I'd assume that the 3.5L is N/A. I'd have thought forced induction would have yielded over 200kW in a 3.5

The current naturally aspirated 3.8L SOHC MIVEC donk in the US Eclipse delivers 197kW and 354Nm, and is the exact same engine as in 380... (minus MIVEC)

Holden VE compared with Ford BA. Great pic for a comparison (click).

http://www.fordforums.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=18688

Holden VE compared with Ford BA. Great pic for a comparison (click).

http://www.fordforums.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=18688
Their not trying to argue their similiar in side profile are they?

The current naturally aspirated 3.8L SOHC MIVEC donk in the US Eclipse delivers 197kW and 354Nm, and is the exact same engine as in 380... (minus MIVEC)

we'd proably see 200kw here then, we generally have higher grade fuel, i think 87ron is avalible in the states...

Holden VE compared with Ford BA. Great pic for a comparison (click).

http://www.fordforums.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=18688
If that's attempting to look like a comparison between both those cars looks... It fails miserably. The only 2 simalarities those 2 cars share is they're both cars.

I WANT A SS-V!!! :badgrin:

:shock:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't believe all the winging in this thread. For example:
I won't read a review becuase its biased crap - What bull****! How can a review on one car be biased anyway!?!?!?!:confused:

Just saying.. open your minds and stop being so blidly defensive of the 380 and so sterotypical of other vehicle owners :) :doubt:


my 2c

What i hate is when people are posting in a Magna/380 forum and then piss and moan when people take the mickey out of them when they are showing brand loyalties to an opposing manufacturers product! Love the VE sure but dont expect everyone to share your viewpoints about the car. Its a Mitsu forum! If you want people to hump your leg over the "wonderful" BA.... Sorry, VE Commodore then maybe this is not the forum for you!

I WANT A SS-V!!! :badgrin:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't believe all the winging in this thread. For example:
I won't read a review becuase its biased crap - What bull****! How can a review on one car be biased anyway!?!?!?!

Just saying.. open your minds and stop being so blidly defensive of the 380 and so sterotypical of other vehicle owners :) :doubt:


my 2c
Of course you are going to be on the defensive over the 380 in a forum devoted to the 380!:nuts: And you say you want a SSV? Why not save the $$$ and buy an SS? They will perform the same function or did Holdens marketing team tell you that the SSV was the car for you because the chicks will like you more and it will enhance sexual performance? lol

Of course you are going to be on the defensive over the 380 in a forum devoted to the 380! And you say you want a SSV? Why not save the $$$ and buy an SS? They will perform the same function or did Holdens marketing team tell you that the SSV was the car for you because the chicks will like you more and it will enhance sexual performance? lol

hehe!

With the defensive side of the 380 i can completely understand it due to the forum and everything.. Dont get me wrong it is a great car! I simply dont like it.

When i said i wanted a ss-v there's no way i can afford to buy it.. Its simply a 'want' cant wait to see what HSV will do to the VE :badgrin:

lol to be honest its got nothing to do with chicks i have a lovely girlfriend i simply like what holden have done with their new car:D

I WANT A SS-V!!! :badgrin:

:shock:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't believe all the winging in this thread. For example:
I won't read a review becuase its biased crap - What bull****! How can a review on one car be biased anyway!?!?!?!:confused:

Just saying.. open your minds and stop being so blidly defensive of the 380 and so sterotypical of other vehicle owners :) :doubt:


my 2c

A review can easily be completely biased. When was the last time you read MOTOR magazine or WHEELS? They're completely and utterly Ford and Holden biased. So are a lot of internet journos. I don't really see how that's such a difficult concept to grasp.

A review can easily be completely biased. When was the last time you read MOTOR magazine or WHEELS? They're completely and utterly Ford and Holden biased. So are a lot of internet journos. I don't really see how that's such a difficult concept to grasp.

I read each monthy. They're great magazines and if you had read the articles on the 380 they commended it on many points. If in a comparison article a falcon or commodore beat the 380 they list reasons why it did so.

Did you know that bias is favoring one thing over another? :nuts:
There cannot be any bias in an article or review that is on ONE car alone :bowrofl: LOL

1 thing im interested in seeing is how they made it more economical, when it uses the same motors and some of the same gear boxes and its 100kgs+ and it how more power, it doens't you dont have to be that smart that work out it cant happen unless they were running the motors in the old car in a bad tune so they drank more

Ok here are some REAL WORLD comparisons from photos I've found on Carsales.com:
23878

23879

23880

... and some side views aswell...

23881

23882

23883

I've also found a VE Berlina which is worthy of comparison to 380's now killed-of LS variant:

23884

23885

Ok here are some REAL WORLD comparisons from photos I've found on Carsales.com:
23878

23879

23880

is it just me and dont get me wrong i like the wheel arch but does it look weird on a car thats not that low.

1 thing im interested in seeing is how they made it more economical, when it uses the same motors and some of the same gear boxes and its 100kgs+ and it how more power, it doens't you dont have to be that smart that work out it cant happen unless they were running the motors in the old car in a bad tune so they drank more


The omega apparantly uses slightly less fuel.. I'm as lost as you to how thats possible the tune would have to be it??
The rest of the range though uses more if i remember correctly.

Did you know that bias is favoring one thing over another? :nuts:
There cannot be any bias in an article or review that is on ONE car alone :bowrofl: LOL
Mate, think before you post. Bias against something is a form of prejudice, and is just as likely to be in a single vehicle review as in a comparison. If someone is pro-Holden, they will rave on and on about it in a single vehicle review till the cows come home. Ditto the opposite.

By including those smilies you simply dug yourself a deeper hole. Disciple, you should return them to sender - nothing like poetic justice!:bowrofl: lol

The omega apparantly uses slightly less fuel.. I'm as lost as you to how thats possible the tune would have to be it??
The rest of the range though uses more if i remember correctly.

ah i see, i figured the omega would be the worst affected with that ****ty 4 speed same V6 and more weight, but we will soon. i hope it goes well for holden, but i also hope it doesn't and people see mitsubish can build a good car as well. but dont see the 2nd happening

is it just me and dont get me wrong i like the wheel arch but does it look weird on a car thats not that low.

Its not just you, i reckon it is wierd on the base models. When its been lowered on the Calais and ss however in my opinion it looks magic :D

I read each monthy. They're great magazines and if you had read the articles on the 380 they commended it on many points. If in a comparison article a falcon or commodore beat the 380 they list reasons why it did so.

Did you know that bias is favoring one thing over another? :nuts:
There cannot be any bias in an article or review that is on ONE car alone :bowrofl: LOL
Hahaha just like the last comparison they did, base model 380, base model toyota something vs an up-market holden and up-market ford. They beat down the 380 + toyota for not having the same features, even though the price was considerably lower and the similarly priced 380 had the features the holden/ford did. There was a post on it not long ago, i cant find it though.

ah i see, i figured the omega would be the worst affected with that ****ty 4 speed same V6 and more weight, but we will soon. i hope it goes well for holden, but i also hope it doesn't and people see mitsubish can build a good car as well. but dont see the 2nd happening
If you look at the improvements in economy 380 has over outgoing TW Magna, then consider that 380 is heavier, more powerful and has an engine which is more than 300cc bigger in capacity, it makes for interesting thought. Main reason is due to standard 5sp auto (instead of 4sp) and new technology (Bosch engine management system).

So while VE Omega uses same drivetrain (plus 5kW/10Nm) and is 100kg's heavier than outgoing VZ, it uses smarter technology such as gear ratios and other engine management systems (don't know what Holden are calling them though).

I read each monthy. They're great magazines and if you had read the articles on the 380 they commended it on many points. If in a comparison article a falcon or commodore beat the 380 they list reasons why it did so.

Did you know that bias is favoring one thing over another? :nuts:
There cannot be any bias in an article or review that is on ONE car alone :bowrofl: LOL
You ever heard of a biased opinion? Pretty sure that's possible right? Wait, lemme think a minute.... Yep, yep it is. Or is it... hang on... checking Encyclopedias and dictionary.com and going through a few books here... wait, IT IS OMG.

Bias, by definition means: A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment. Stick that in yer pipe holden boy.

Mate, think before you post. Bias against something is a form of prejudice, and is just as likely to be in a single vehicle review as in a comparison. If someone is pro-Holden, they will rave on and on about it in a single vehicle review till the cows come home. Ditto the opposite.

By including those smilies you simply dug yourself a deeper hole. Disciple, you should return them to sender - nothing like poetic justice!:bowrofl: lol

:doh: should of explained my self more carefullty...

True to a point but when an article is written about the facts of the vehicle wherein lies the bias? Isn't the job of a car reviewer not to be biased? I read article upon article of writers complaining about all sorts of aspects about every car and liking other parts... isn't it then up to the reader to say what the may agree or disagree with?

Guess i'm simply looking at it from a different point of view? :S

Hahaha just like the last comparison they did, base model 380, base model toyota something vs an up-market holden and up-market ford. They beat down the 380 + toyota for not having the same features, even though the price was considerably lower and the similarly priced 380 had the features the holden/ford did. There was a post on it not long ago, i cant find it though.
I know the one you're talking about there. This link here (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35354&highlight=camry) is the thread you're talking about. Yeah... really fair and unbiased review that one. :roll:

You ever heard of a biased opinion? Pretty sure that's possible right? Wait, lemme think a minute.... Yep, yep it is. Or is it... hang on... checking Encyclopedias and dictionary.com and going through a few books here... wait, IT IS OMG.

Bias, by definition means: A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment. Stick that in yer pipe holden boy.
Well you can't get any more straightforward than that...

So while VE Omega uses same drivetrain (plus 5kW/10Nm) and is 100kg's heavier than outgoing VZ, it uses smarter technology such as gear ratios and other engine management systems (don't know what Holden are calling them though).
If im not mistaken though... The VE Omega has identical gear ratios (4 speed auto) to the VZ Exec...

I put it down to the fine art of playing the numbers game when they are showing a fuel consumption reduction. It is impossible for a car to put on 100kg, use the same transmission with a more powerful engine and use less fuel. Unless of course Peter Brock is offloading some of his unused energy polarisers from the mid 80's.

I know the one you're talking about there. This link here (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35354&highlight=camry) is the thread you're talking about. Yeah... really fair and unbiased review that one. :roll:
Yup that's the one, cheers for that :D.
That has to be one of the worst comparisons i've ever seen, i couldn't stop laughing.

If you look at the improvements in economy 380 has over outgoing TW Magna, then consider that 380 is heavier, more powerful and has an engine which is more than 300cc bigger in capacity, it makes for interesting thought. Main reason is due to standard 5sp auto (instead of 4sp) and new technology (Bosch engine management system).

So while VE Omega uses same drivetrain (plus 5kW/10Nm) and is 100kg's heavier than outgoing VZ, it uses smarter technology such as gear ratios and other engine management systems (don't know what Holden are calling them though).


i think the omega uses the same 4 speed same motor(more power) and 100kgs more,

the 380 has a re designed motor so i guess it could use less, the omega seems to be VZ exec motor and box in the new VE car. so if it uses less i want to know how. as i would feel ripped of if i had a vz and i could change something and make it use like 10l/100

If im not mistaken though... The VE Omega has identical gear ratios (4 speed auto) to the VZ Exec...

I put it down to the fine art of playing the numbers game when they are showing a fuel consumption reduction. It is impossible for a car to put on 100kg, use the same transmission with a more powerful engine and use less fuel. Unless of course Peter Brock is offloading some of his unused energy polarisers from the mid 80's.

I read in the paper that holden using 36psi pressure in the tyres.That may be why.:nuts:

I put it down to the fine art of playing the numbers game when they are showing a fuel consumption reduction. It is impossible for a car to put on 100kg, use the same transmission with a more powerful engine and use less fuel.
I'd say it is probably due to the fine tuning of the engine management system

I'd say who gives a crap about .1 L/km of a difference between different gen models/makes. :P Who ever drives and gets around the same avg fuel consumption figures as the factory claim anyway? lol

I'd say who gives a crap about .1 L/km of a difference between different gen models/makes. Who ever drives and gets around the same avg fuel consumption figures as the factory claim anyway?

True, a 0.1litre/100km saving isn't very significant, but is a confusing result for the VE Omega because it shares the same gearbox, same engine yet ways 100kg more. Improved engine management could make the difference, but, would yet again support the argument that Holden de-tuned the VZ Executive. It's just that fact that many people expect the fuel consumption to increase; and it hasn't.

I can't wait to real world tests show that the fuel consumption is significantly above this figure and that it may be above the VZ Exec figure!

Then it would support our argument that the VE Omega should use up MORE fuel (consumption wise) then the VZ.

I'd say it is probably due to the fine tuning of the engine management system
Don't Bosch engineer VE's engine management system?:confused: I know Holden get their ESP from Bosch, but not sure on the EMS.

As someone here mentioned could the tyre pressures used during the test made a significant difference or is the figure an average from controlled extensive tests. :confused: we'll never know.

I can't wait to real world tests show that the fuel consumption is significantly above this figure and that it may be above the VZ Exec figure!

Then it would support our argument that the VE Omega should use up MORE fuel (consumption wise) then the VZ.

:stoopid: Real world driving(driving on road) is the only one that count.:nuts:

The comments re fuel economy being slightly worse, but not stopping sales of the VE are true.
However, I think the real interesting thing here is Holden have failed to address fuel consumption in a very positive way for the future of their large car product line. They seem to have decided KW versus fuel economy wins every time. Is this going to be right?

A lot of people are going to trade down from large cars and those who may have wavered over the VE may decide not to plunge in particularly when GMH has very publicly not addressed fuel economy in a positive way.

A lot of people are going to trade down from large cars and those who may have wavered over the VE may decide not to plunge in particularly when GMH has very publicly not addressed fuel economy in a positive way.

The 4 cylinder Toyota Camry is the closest example but it lacks in power and performance, and where it's supposed to be good (fuel economy) it's only slightly better than the 380 and VE Commodore.

It's simply not possible for a car company to build a large sedan, adequate for a family which is safe, powerful, a strong performer AND with Hyundai Getz-like fuel consumption. And even if it were possible, you'd have to pay ****load for it, offsetting any benefits - think Toyota Prius which is a pretty terrible car apart from its fuel efficiency - 57kw and a $37,000 price tag.

i think the omega uses the same 4 speed same motor(more power) and 100kgs more,

the 380 has a re designed motor so i guess it could use less, the omega seems to be VZ exec motor and box in the new VE car. so if it uses less i want to know how. as i would feel ripped of if i had a vz and i could change something and make it use like 10l/100

I recon that holden is using the 4 speed in the market leading models (omega/berlina) for a very different reason. If they drop this box, the australian content with reach a critically low level. All the other auto boxes are made elsewhere. Ion was also meant to make the heads for the alloytech, but after it went ar%e up, they just imported it from mexico. Ion still make the 4 speed too.

I recon that holden is using the 4 speed in the market leading models (omega/berlina) for a very different reason. If they drop this box, the australian content with reach a critically low level. All the other auto boxes are made elsewhere. Ion was also meant to make the heads for the alloytech, but after it went ar%e up, they just imported it from mexico. Ion still make the 4 speed too.
You are mistaking the GM 4L60E auto that comes in the VE (and every other Commodore since VR) to the one used in Falcons which is manufactured by ION. The Commodore box is imported from the USA.

You are mistaking the GM 4L60E auto that comes in the VE (and every other Commodore since VR) to the one used in Falcons which is manufactured by ION. The Commodore box is imported from the USA.

My bad. So bugger all of the new commo drivetrain is even made here! Hello global economy! I suppose most of the block is made here. Why does holden use this crappy box still, if there are better options? My dad has a VX, and thought there was something wrong with the auto when he first test drove it. I told him, they're all like that. Fairly sturdy, but changes when it feels like it, not when you need it.

Why does holden use this crappy box still, if there are better options? My dad has a VX, and thought there was something wrong with the auto when he first test drove it.

The reason they still use it is because they can cost cut by using it, and they are only using it in the Omega and Berlina models, which will aimed at the fleet market. The other thing is that the auto gearbox in the VE is a lot more refined than the one from the VX 6 years ago. The other thing thing is Holden can get away on looks and styling in its base models since it's major competitor (Ford) is using parts of a car which date back to 1998. When it has to, ie when the Orion is released by Ford in 2008, Holden will probably make the 5 speed auto standard.

It's kind of like how computer manufacturers sell computers and do so deliberately so that first they release 3.0 GHz at a certain price, then in a months time, up it to 3.1Ghz for that same price, and give themselves room to sell marginally better products so that people keep buying them. Why release a 5 GHz computer for the same price, when they don't have to. Going up slowly, 3.1, 3.2 etc means it costs them less, and they don't lose any sales. They only have to up it if a competing company ups it and sells it for the same price. This is what Holden does a lot of.

You having a good debate with yourself, VP? :cool:

The reason they still use it is because they can cost cut by using it, and they are only using it in the Omega and Berlina models, which will aimed at the fleet market. The other thing is that the auto gearbox in the VE is a lot more refined than the one from the VX 6 years ago. The other thing thing is Holden can get away on looks and styling in its base models since it's major competitor (Ford) is using parts of a car which date back to 1998. When it has to, ie when the Orion is released by Ford in 2008, Holden will probably make the 5 speed auto standard.

It's kind of like how computer manufacturers sell computers and do so deliberately so that first they release 3.0 GHz at a certain price, then in a months time, up it to 3.1Ghz for that same price, and give themselves room to sell marginally better products so that people keep buying them. Why release a 5 GHz computer for the same price, when they don't have to. Going up slowly, 3.1, 3.2 etc means it costs them less, and they don't lose any sales. They only have to up it if a competing company ups it and sells it for the same price. This is what Holden does a lot of.
Yeah, a lot of ripping people off and giving inferior products marketed to be better than they are due to the monopoliptic status Holden has in Australia through bogan, one eyed public perception. It's a joke.

It's simply not possible for a car company to build a large sedan, adequate for a family which is safe, powerful, a strong performer AND with Hyundai Getz-like fuel consumption.

Im sure that if they put a modern turbo diesel engine into one fo these cars(380, camry, fowlcan, common) it would most likely meet all of those requirements. I heard a rumour that citroen or renault were working on an engine that would shut itself down when stopped at the lights then start up again, giving a fuel consumption figure of 3-4L/100km.

You having a good debate with yourself, VP? :cool:
exactly what I was thinking, its quite amusing lol

Just a little bit one-eyed there.

I heard a rumour that citroen or renault were working on an engine that would shut itself down when stopped at the lights then start up again, giving a fuel consumption figure of 3-4L/100km.
That sounds like some type of hybrid technology - that's more or less what the Toyota Prius does. Wheels mag reckon we won't see this technology in Aussie cars for another decade...

The reason they still use it is because they can cost cut by using it, and they are only using it in the Omega and Berlina models, which will aimed at the fleet market. The other thing is that the auto gearbox in the VE is a lot more refined than the one from the VX 6 years ago. The other thing thing is Holden can get away on looks and styling in its base models since it's major competitor (Ford) is using parts of a car which date back to 1998. When it has to, ie when the Orion is released by Ford in 2008, Holden will probably make the 5 speed auto standard.
So the consumer has to put up with a mediocre, indecisive truck auto until the powers that be deem us, the general public capable of dealing with the new found refinement that a new 5 speed auto might provide? So what you are saying is that when Orion is released with a 5 speed auto (and it wont :silenced: ) Holden will be playing catch ups again? BTW, the BA sedan body shares only the doors and front floor pan and firewall with AU. Everything is different. As my sig says the VE is a BA but 4 years too late!

I can't wait to real world tests show that the fuel consumption is significantly above this figure and that it may be above the VZ Exec figure!

From all reports the 4 speed Omerga and Berlina consumes less fuel in real world driving than the provided figures. Ill find the mag reviews when ive got more time..........back to work for now :(.

Top Holden officials were pleased with the 10.9 result but questioned the testing procedure and how they match with real world results. They were also adamant that the commodore has better real world fuel consumption.

As always, I remain sceptical with factory results and mag reviews. I’ll believe those figures when I’ve driven the VE.

Holden’s in particular (especially the VT-VZ) have tended to return better fuel economy after an edit and change in gear ratios (for better performance).



From http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/RT/9C714E3946D662E7CA2571C40003BDAB?OpenDocument

But won’t buyers be put off as a result of the misguided hysteria already created through rash and hasty assessments, particularly regarding the VE’s fuel consumption?

The reality is, we often breached the 10L/100km barrier according to our in-car fuel consumption readouts (of course independent tests must verify these), and these included some pretty heavy thrashings.

What we are trying to say is that the VE Commodore might just be the greatest mainstream Australian family car ever, from a company that could just have easily brought us the same type of tripe represented by Holden’s own TK Barina.

With its poise, balance and linearity, the SV6 is certainly one for people who love driving on a budget – fuel consumption included.

From http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car-review/1942363.aspx

Most drivers were reporting fuel figures of between 8.5 and 11.0lt/100km depending on the various stages which included fast mountain roads and congested city driving. A real world mix of highway and city driving suggests an average of 10-10.5lt/100km should be achievable.

On a different note, the Camry according to drive has a


From http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=19111&vf=14&comparisonID=551
Drive can reveal exclusively the ADR test's city-highway numbers, which are much closer to real-world rates: around town, Camry auto's ADR test average is 13.8 litres/100km. On the highway it returns 7.7 litres/100km.

Im sure that if they put a modern turbo diesel engine into one fo these cars(380, camry, fowlcan, common) it would most likely meet all of those requirements. I heard a rumour that citroen or renault were working on an engine that would shut itself down when stopped at the lights then start up again, giving a fuel consumption figure of 3-4L/100km.
Have a look at the mitsubishi Sigma drivetrain (http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail776.html).

It combines a gdi engine, cvt transmission, hybrid system, automatic stop and go and a low boost turbo. Probably the 'greenest' drive train going around at the moment.

What VP is saying though is true and her's just pointing out a fact. All the manufacturers do it and I'd be surprised to find any manufacturing company that doesn't. For instance Ford doesn't have the ZF 6 speed on all it's cars. Why? So that people buy the higher up models. It's just business

215 posts and still going.:confused:

215 posts and still going.:confused:
Yeah 'twas a lovely day here in Melbourne. Sun was shining, birds singing, had an early shift so went to the gym early this arvo and had a good work out, then rest of the day relaxed in the sunroom on the piano.

How was your day Davo?:)

Ha! A VE thread in a 380 section of a Magna forum - almost as pointless as getting hit on the head by a giant watermelon!lol

This IMO would be an advantage to Ford, Mitsubishi and Holden, since all three have LPG options on their cars.

Yay about damn time. Great way to reduce our dependence on the volatile foreign oils.

I guess the greed of oil cartels have finally backfired. America going to E85 (local E85 production), Australia going to LPG (local gas) and Japan going electric (still use oils though.....but not as much).


Govt mulls subsidies for LPG conversions

AAP, 09/08/06

-The government is considering subsidies for drivers to convert their cars to run on LPG, Prime Minister John Howard says.

-"The point about LP gas is that we have very large supplies of it and there is not a problem with its availability," he told reporters.

-"We are looking at a number of things. One of the things we are looking at...is whether we should assist with the conversion costs of existing motor vehicles so that they might be useable for LP gas."

-The Australian newspaper reported the government was considering a $1,000 subsidy towards conversion costs to encourage greater use of LP gas.

-It said drivers could save as much as $1,500 a year using LP gas.

-LP gas is due to have an excise imposed on it from 2011 but Mr Howard said that excise rate would still be dramatically lower than the excise on petrol.

-He said Labor had not opposed the LP excise.

Great way to reduce our dependence on the volatile foreign oils.
I guess the greed of oil cartels have finally backfired.
Not really, oil will never reduce it's demand in the foreseeable future. The big question is, what will oil be like in 20 years time? How about 50?

Moreso however we need to say shame on us for being so dependant on oil.

Moreso however we need to say shame on us for being so dependant on oil.

Absolutely and I think the main reason why no political figures have made a committment to address this issue previously, is because political positions are normally based on a 1-5 year time length. Which means to do something with the problem of oil dependency, you would be losing money in the form of research, development and costs in that 1-5 year span, with the benefits only coming afterwards, which is also after you leave that political position. Hence there's no incentive to spend money in the short-term for long-term benefits from political figures, because they are judged in the short-term not the long-term.

It's also hard to reassure a large proportion of Australians (baby boomers and ageing population) that their current taxpaying dollars will be well spent making the lives of the future population better as opposed to using the current population's taxpaying dollars to make the lives of the current population's lives better. They'll argue that we should spend money on ourselves, and let the future population spend money on themselves (a typical buy-now, pay later, don't save for the future, Australian culture).

Not really, oil will never reduce it's demand in the foreseeable future. The big question is, what will oil be like in 20 years time? How about 50?

Moreso however we need to say shame on us for being so dependant on oil.

Maybe not reduce but LPG and Ethanol would become a viable and real alternative.

If I had a choice I would rather spend my hard earned on a local product (even if its more expensive) than support the lavish lifestyle of some rich oil cartel. Those pricks have taken everyone for a ride, continually pushing up oil prices at an alarming rate - blaming the rises on every conceivable natural or man made disasters.

As individuals and as a country we must do something!!!!!!!!! If we continue our reliance on O/S oils we would (most likely) end up paying over $3 a liter (predicted by the Iranian ambassador more than 2 years ago).

Finally this is good news for the 380, BFII and VE. This is also great news for Australia's auto industry.

100% Ethanol would be economically unfeasible to use. If you think about it, every car owner would have to get engine conversions to run on ethanol, and believe me, you don't want to know how much those cost. Not to mention our it is rather costly getting it from celluose of sugar cane into the ethanol. Our method is mediocre, and until someone thinks of quicker, cheaper method of obtaining the thanol from glucose, it won't be used :(

However LPG is a good option, we're sitting above a **** load of it :D

But why not Hydrogen cells? We've had the technology for years. It would be easy to implement. But the oil companies have bought this off for the time being, just like every other advancement and petrol alternative technology. The oil sheiks still want to drive their lambos and ****, while we still suffer.:nuts:

It's horrible.:rant:

100% Ethanol would be economically unfeasible to use. If you think about it, every car owner would have to get engine conversions to run on ethanol, and believe me, you don't want to know how much those cost. Not to mention our it is rather costly getting it from celluose of sugar cane into the ethanol. Our method is mediocre, and until someone thinks of quicker, cheaper method of obtaining the thanol from glucose, it won't be used

Manufacturers could create an E85 car, you could even modify them. Holden already export E85 Omegas to Brasil. Many people in America have E85 cars but are not aware of them.



Ethanol Usage, Production Heat Up in Texas
BY DANIEL MOTTOLA
www.austinchronicle.com

Cellulosic ethanol's proponents are making equally bold statements about its potential. "It is our goal that the U.S. be fuel-independent in five to eight years from our efforts, along with that of others in the field," said George Oerther, president of BioFuels Energy Corporation, located in the Rio Grande Valley town of Raymondville. His company is developing a 12-million-gallon-per-year plant and capabilities to mass-produce smaller cellulosic ethanol distilleries. In Austin, he said "those nasty weeds in Town Lake should make enough ethanol to fuel several of the city's vehicles." Green waste from tree trimming and refuse from produce terminals, both frequently disposed of, are also prime for local cellulosic fuel production, he said.

Seth Snyder, section leader for chemistry and biotechnology at the Argonne National Laboratory said that, although America is becoming increasingly efficient at producing corn, cellulosic ethanol production is far more efficient. He explained that traditional ethanol production borrows liquid sugars from cattle feed-grade corn (still usable afterward) and distills it like whiskey, while the cellulosic method uses chemicals, acid, or steam to break down the tougher biomass (often stalks or chaff) and utilizes more complex enzymes, called cellulase, for distillation. Corn ethanol could supply 10% of America's fuel supply in a decade, he said, but with the help of cellulosic, that number could rise to 30% by 2030.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issue..._feature7.html

Yeah I know, but there is a reason it is only going to 30% by 2030, cos' its too damn hard! lol Plus the car companies are in the pocket's of the oil companies, they aren't gonna be making huge amounts of E85 cars unless the Government force them too. But the E85 cars have been done in the factory, you'd still need to mod people's current engines in order to use it, and thats costly :(

Have a look at the mitsubishi Sigma drivetrain (http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail776.html).

It combines a gdi engine, cvt transmission, hybrid system, automatic stop and go and a low boost turbo. Probably the 'greenest' drive train going around at the moment.


I know mitsubishi has the technology, and has had it for several years (the GDI came out 10 years ago, and that particular article 7 years ago). From the little graph that engine should get better fuel economy than my little 250cc motorbike :shock:
But as you mentioned they, like everyone else (in australia at least) seem to be reluctant to implement it. Are they going to meet their target of it being in every mitsubish car by 2010?

/just realised this isnt directly about the VE :confused:

I don't think there will be one single technology that will overtake petrol, because at the moment, there is no killer technology that can replace dependence on oil.

Diesel is a mature technology, but it is just another form of petrol, so it only provides a short term solution. Diesel cars can be adapted to run on conventional vegetable oils, but this technology has some problems and growing canola/sunflower/etc. for oil production is not economically viable at the moment (but more viable than ethanol?)

Ethanol is also fairly mature, but again, it is expensive to grow, harvest and ferment sugar cane. It requires investment and commitment.

Hybrid technology is also mature, but again, it is only a temporary solution, as petrol is still in the equation.

Pure electric is practical for city commuters, but it needs to get past the stigma of being slow and a little bit daggy :)

LPG has some promise, but again, it is not renewable. People talk about 500 years of LPG, but I wonder if that 500 years is based on current usage? What if all cars in Australia converted to LPG? Would we still have a large supply?

The biggest problem I see at the moment is that our transport methods all rely on internal combustion, which at best only delivers an efficiency of 20-30%:doubt:. Whereas electric motors have an efficiency of around 90%. The problem with electric is that you need to have a way of storing the energy that has good energy-volume and energy-mass ratios and can be recharged relatively quickly. People want to be able to refill their car with energy in the same space of time that it takes to refill a car with petrol. Hydrogen fuel cells seem to me the way to go as you could use an LPG type tank, although it has to be able to hold higher pressures, to store the hydrogen. A fuel cell car would have a efficiency rating much much higher than any possible fossil fueled car.

Everyone has their own opinion. You friend Luigi sounds like he's a Holdem man through and through and it does not matter to him that the 380 is more refined, better on fuel, better warranty, better resale value, safer and has more features. He'll take the Commodore simply on its names sake. Personally I think the VE will be nothing new. Same old recipe from Holden, same old buyers. It's got the same unrefined engine with the same donk gearbox from a 50's tractor. Add the fact it's 150kgs heavier, and you have a poor revving, unrefined, fuel guzzling barge with wheels.
Guys... I know this is a MITSU club, but let's try and be honest with ourselves.... Better resale value?? Mitsus are notorious for have the worst resale value of all fleet cars. In fact, most of the bigger fleets in Australia have stopped buying mitsus for that very reason! More refined? maybe, better on fuel? maybe (?), safer, with more features? like what?...... Better resale... Sorry, WRONG!

A poor revving donk? you dont need big revs when you've got the eight. (and by the way, speaking of fuel consumption, my '98 5 ltr, was better by around a liter per hundred, than my series II TJ 3.5!).
I always did, and still do believe that; If you can only lift your image, by trying to lower the image of others, then you are, and always will be, at best, second place.

Don't misunderstand.. I love my magna..... But I did have to factor in a much poorer resale value!

my '98 5 ltr, was better by around a liter per hundred, than my series II TJ 3.5!).


something wrong with your magna or had a very good 5L. whats your magna average against the 5L

Also the 3.6 in the Holdens while might sound restrictive up top (to some), they are definatlly a free reving unit. And I see these units producing 200kW+ NA in the near future.

something wrong with your magna or had a very good 5L. whats your magna average against the 5L
Got (canstantly) 8.6 L/ per 100 from the eight, and I get between 9.4 - 10.2 from the magna. I do mainly highway, as I'm in a regional area.

Not complaining.... just sick of the crap that comes from the mouths of people who just really don't know!

Got (canstantly) 8.6 L/ per 100 from the eight, and I get between 9.4 - 10.2 from the magna. I do mainly highway, as I'm in a regional area.

Not complaining.... just sick of the crap that comes from the mouths of people who just really don't know!
That's extremely good for a v8. My mates dad's vy 5L drinks it highway driving, something like 12-13l/100kms. Could be something wrong with it i guess?

Got (canstantly) 8.6 L/ per 100 from the eight, and I get between 9.4 - 10.2 from the magna. I do mainly highway, as I'm in a regional area.

Not complaining.... just sick of the crap that comes from the mouths of people who just really don't know!
Our VR 5L Calais did 13.6L/100 on the highway and around 21L/100 city.

my dads 745il gets about 16.2 for city

Got (canstantly) 8.6 L/ per 100 from the eight, and I get between 9.4 - 10.2 from the magna. I do mainly highway, as I'm in a regional area.

Not complaining.... just sick of the crap that comes from the mouths of people who just really don't know!

Getting 9.4 on the highway in a TJII isn't normal. How hard are you pushing it?

Getting 9.4 on the highway in a TJII isn't normal. How hard are you pushing it?

I'm not (usually) a hard driver at all. in fact, I use cruise control mainly, as I did in the senator.

Can't understand how your v8's are drinking so much! Do you drive them like eights, or sixes?

Guys... I know this is a MITSU club, but let's try and be honest with ourselves.... Better resale value?? Mitsus are notorious for have the worst resale value of all fleet cars. In fact, most of the bigger fleets in Australia have stopped buying mitsus for that very reason! More refined? maybe, better on fuel? maybe (?), safer, with more features? like what?...... Better resale... Sorry, WRONG!

A poor revving donk? you dont need big revs when you've got the eight. (and by the way, speaking of fuel consumption, my '98 5 ltr, was better by around a liter per hundred, than my series II TJ 3.5!).
I always did, and still do believe that; If you can only lift your image, by trying to lower the image of others, then you are, and always will be, at best, second place.

Don't misunderstand.. I love my magna..... But I did have to factor in a much poorer resale value!

I just went from a VS SS Manual to a TL VRX AWD and I thought that my old V8 was better on fuel after calculating the fuel figures. But I am using 10lts on average less fuel per week than I did with the v8 and another thing, I am doing less kays each week even though I am driving on the same route to and from work :shock: . It turns out that the commodores odometer must have been ticking over slightly faster hence reading higher kms. We are only talking less than 2 kms each way over a good drive over 80 + kays round trip per day. Over a week this made a difference to the fuel consumption figures. As I work for Mits I recall seeing the calibration test sheets from the supplier for the Mits clusters and they were/are very accurate.

Just my 2 cents in regards to my experiences with V6 Magna vs V8 Commo fuel economy figures.

Guys... I know this is a MITSU club, but let's try and be honest with ourselves.... Better resale value?? Mitsus are notorious for have the worst resale value of all fleet cars. In fact, most of the bigger fleets in Australia have stopped buying mitsus for that very reason! More refined? maybe, better on fuel? maybe (?), safer, with more features? like what?...... Better resale... Sorry, WRONG!

A poor revving donk? you dont need big revs when you've got the eight. (and by the way, speaking of fuel consumption, my '98 5 ltr, was better by around a liter per hundred, than my series II TJ 3.5!).
I always did, and still do believe that; If you can only lift your image, by trying to lower the image of others, then you are, and always will be, at best, second place.

Don't misunderstand.. I love my magna..... But I did have to factor in a much poorer resale value!
We're not talking about MAGNAS, we're talking about 380's. Magnas are about the only Mitsubishi I can think of that has poor resale? A 99 Lancer still goes for about 10-12k with 100k on the clock. Features? Try air conditioning. Standard VE Omega doesn't have any. Standard 380 has full climate control. Standard Omega has 4 speed auto box that is about 22 years old. Standard 380 has 5 speed auto. Resale value will be good, you'll see. Your 5Ltr V8 sounds like a crock just quietly. Your Magna must be well out of tune if you're doing 10l/100 on the highway. Mine does 7-8 and it's modified. Get a grip on reality, then come back.

My KE Verada 4speed Auto with 236 000Km is getting around 9l/100km - 1997 technology.

We're not talking about MAGNAS, we're talking about 380's. Magnas are about the only Mitsubishi I can think of that has poor resale? A 99 Lancer still goes for about 10-12k with 100k on the clock. Features? Try air conditioning. Standard VE Omega doesn't have any. Standard 380 has full climate control. Standard Omega has 4 speed auto box that is about 22 years old. Standard 380 has 5 speed auto. Resale value will be good, you'll see. Your 5Ltr V8 sounds like a crock just quietly. Your Magna must be well out of tune if you're doing 10l/100 on the highway. Mine does 7-8 and it's modified. Get a grip on reality, then come back.

Where is the evidence of a better resale.. you only state speculatively, that the 380 will have a decent resale. I don't know where you live, but I wouldn't see more than two or three 380s in a week, and I live on the road. Why would resale be so high, if they don't appear (to me) to be seeling new?
You might try to think about this objectively.
A) I'm not attacking Mitsu. I own one, chose to buy it and love it.
B) It was stated that Holden are still using a "tractor engine from the fifties". If this is the case, why is the holden V6 producing so much more power than the Mitsu, if the Mitsu is so far superior an modern?
C) I couldn't give a rats, if my eight sounds like a crock to you. Fact is, I'm using more fuel in the magna, than I was in the eight. I have the figures and fuel usage just done for this financial year. Bought the Mitsu at Christmas time and surpise, surpise..... using more fuel than before (and NO, I'm not simply talking about cost)!
You can disagree if you like, feel free to be wrong.

My original posting was simply to state this; If the only way you can feel good about driving a Mitsu, is to tear down Holden, then you have real problems. Because, all you're doing is making yourself look like an ignorant idiot (PROVEN, in your case, by the smart **** "reality" comment) .

Congratulations.

Where is the evidence of a better resale.. you only state speculatively, that the 380 will have a decent resale. I don't know where you live, but I wouldn't see more than two or three 380s in a week, and I live on the road. Why would resale be so high, if they don't appear (to me) to be seeling new?
You might try to think about this objectively.
A) I'm not attacking Mitsu. I own one, chose to buy it and love it.
B) It was stated that Holden are still using a "tractor engine from the fifties". If this is the case, why is the holden V6 producing so much more power than the Mitsu, if the Mitsu is so far superior an modern?
C) I couldn't give a rats, if my eight sounds like a crock to you. Fact is, I'm using more fuel in the magna, than I was in the eight. I have the figures and fuel usage just done for this financial year. Bought the Mitsu at Christmas time and surpise, surpise..... using more fuel than before (and NO, I'm not simply talking about cost)!
You can disagree if you like, feel free to be wrong.

My original posting was simply to state this; If the only way you can feel good about driving a Mitsu, is to tear down Holden, then you have real problems. Because, all you're doing is making yourself look like an ignorant idiot (PROVEN, in your case, by the smart **** "reality" comment) .

Congratulations.
Royal auto club australia released the figures on all cars and the 380 has the best resale value out of all large cars - FACT.
Your argument - Because mitsubishi magnas resale was sh!t, so must be the 380's - opinion, assumption, NOT FACT.
Just because the holden is getting more "power", doesn't mean it's pushing it further. We all know its easy to get kw out of an engine, getting torque to the ground is a different matter.
P.S. Magna/380 v6 engines have always been producing the same if not more power than it's commodore equivilent (post 96), i don't see where you get this from: "If this is the case, why is the holden V6 producing so much more power than the Mitsu, if the Mitsu is so far superior an modern".
Maybe you should back up your arguments with facts, and don't compare an exec magna to a commodore S or something stupid.

**EDIT**
It's also been established there must be something wrong with your car, as i can get as low as 6-7L per 100km highway.

I consistently get :

* 7.6-8.2 highway
* 11.3-12.0 city
* and on average, around 10.5 combined.

Although I have a BMC panel filter and a fuel lean out kit, so that helps a bit.

Your Magna must be well out of tune if you're doing 10l/100 on the highway. Mine does 7-8 and it's modified. Get a grip on reality, then come back.

Congratulations.
Ooooo see it's easy to make friends.

Can this thread get locked?, there is nothing of value in here, it should have been closed 200 posts ago.

Where is the evidence of a better resale.. you only state speculatively, that the 380 will have a decent resale. I don't know where you live, but I wouldn't see more than two or three 380s in a week, and I live on the road. Why would resale be so high, if they don't appear (to me) to be seeling new?
You might try to think about this objectively.
A) I'm not attacking Mitsu. I own one, chose to buy it and love it.
B) It was stated that Holden are still using a "tractor engine from the fifties". If this is the case, why is the holden V6 producing so much more power than the Mitsu, if the Mitsu is so far superior an modern?
C) I couldn't give a rats, if my eight sounds like a crock to you. Fact is, I'm using more fuel in the magna, than I was in the eight. I have the figures and fuel usage just done for this financial year. Bought the Mitsu at Christmas time and surpise, surpise..... using more fuel than before (and NO, I'm not simply talking about cost)!
You can disagree if you like, feel free to be wrong.

My original posting was simply to state this; If the only way you can feel good about driving a Mitsu, is to tear down Holden, then you have real problems. Because, all you're doing is making yourself look like an ignorant idiot (PROVEN, in your case, by the smart **** "reality" comment) .

Congratulations.


Refer to M4DDOG's post re: resale value.

I live in a small town and see at least 2-3 380's every time I drive into town.

I never said Holdens made tractor engines did I? I said they use a very old gearbox. The 5.7Ltr LS1 engine can be quite fuel effecient when driven at highway speeds. My dad has one and can acheive low 9's cruising in 6th at 120km/h. There is something wrong with your magna or you drive it harder than the V8. Like I said, my car averages 7-8 on the highway, and about 12 in the city, 10-11 combined. The 5L V8 commodore engine was never fuel efficient. If it is more-so than your Magna, again, there is something wrong with your Magna. I'm not bringing Holdens down. My dad owns a 2002 Monaro and I think it's a great car. Not as nice to drive or as quick as mine, but it's nice. I was comparing standard vs standard VE vs 380, because you challenged the features side of things. It's obvious you're in some sort of dream world where 5Ltr V8's are more fuel efficient than 3.5Ltr V6's.

No FWD is better!!!


lol anyway, i think this thread has been talked about enough and has yet again turned into another holden vs. mitsubishi arguement.
I know i'm guilty of it, but in the future can people PLEASE backup their claims of why you think sometihng is better than something else. Just saying it's gotta be better cuz its a holden or it's sh!t cuz its a mitsubishi really doesn't help anything.

Back onto the VE when will it be one the road, or is it out now and i just never seen one?

Back onto the VE when will it be one the road, or is it out now and i just never seen one?
I think the 14th, next Monday.

Refer to M4DDOG's post re: resale value.

I live in a small town and see at least 2-3 380's every time I drive into town.

I never said Holdens made tractor engines did I? I said they use a very old gearbox. The 5.7Ltr LS1 engine can be quite fuel effecient when driven at highway speeds. My dad has one and can acheive low 9's cruising in 6th at 120km/h. There is something wrong with your magna or you drive it harder than the V8. Like I said, my car averages 7-8 on the highway, and about 12 in the city, 10-11 combined. The 5L V8 commodore engine was never fuel efficient. If it is more-so than your Magna, again, there is something wrong with your Magna. I'm not bringing Holdens down. My dad owns a 2002 Monaro and I think it's a great car. Not as nice to drive or as quick as mine, but it's nice. I was comparing standard vs standard VE vs 380, because you challenged the features side of things. It's obvious you're in some sort of dream world where 5Ltr V8's are more fuel efficient than 3.5Ltr V6's.

ok. you win....

You obviously have access to my fuel consumption figures. You are also right about the 5 ltr motor. It was never an efficient motor. I'll accept your obviously superior knowledge of holden eights, due to the fact that your daddy has one.
Yes, asking what the feature differences are, must be a challenge. The long and the short of it is this; Mitsubishi are notorious for making fleet cars, with the poorest resale.

My comment is not intended to offend those who believe that mitsubishi make the only decent car in the world.

I have nothing to gain from making false or misleading claims regarding MY experience with fuel economy. I don't work for, or have ANY association with any manufacturer, apart from driving a MITSUBISHI.

I would've assumed that the fact that I sold my holden and bought a magna, would provide ample evidence, that I am NOT of the opinion that holden are a superior car. If that WAS my opinion, the disposal of a holden, for the aquisition of a magna would make me a little stupid (THAT would put me in your class of intelect, would it not?... a moron).

As for an attack on a fellow MAGNA fan, for stating personal experience, I'm glad that you have taken my advice and felt free to be wrong.
But then, you are, by your own admission, "challenged".

ok. you win....

You obviously have access to my fuel consumption figures. You are also right about the 5 ltr motor. It was never an efficient motor. I'll accept your obviously superior knowledge of holden eights, due to the fact that your daddy has one.
Yes, asking what the feature differences are, must be a challenge. The long and the short of it is this; Mitsubishi are notorious for making fleet cars, with the poorest resale.

My comment is not intended to offend those who believe that mitsubishi make the only decent car in the world.

I have nothing to gain from making false or misleading claims regarding MY experience with fuel economy. I don't work for, or have ANY association with any manufacturer, apart from driving a MITSUBISHI.

I would've assumed that the fact that I sold my holden and bought a magna, would provide ample evidence, that I am NOT of the opinion that holden are a superior car. If that WAS my opinion, the disposal of a holden, for the aquisition of a magna would make me a little stupid (THAT would put me in your class of intelect, would it not?... a moron).

As for an attack on a fellow MAGNA fan, for stating personal experience, I'm glad that you have taken my advice and felt free to be wrong.
But then, you are, by your own admission, "challenged".

i think the reason your getting people disagreing with you is the rate you said your magna uses fuel, most people seem to use less fuel than what you are using, maybe your car is out of tune as i shouldn't use more then a 5L. the only time i could see it maybe using less would be on the highway only maybe. but i know a few people with 8's and as soon as you do any stop starts it drinks like crazy.

Lol, I knew he'd say something about "your daddy has one" It is actually a friends, I just threw that in there to catch him. God I'm good. lol. The whole deal is you are saying a 5L V8 Commodore is more fuel efficient than a 3.5L V6 Magna, and it's not.

Lol, I knew he'd say something about "your daddy has one" It is actually a friends, I just threw that in there to catch him. God I'm good. lol. The whole deal is you are saying a 5L V8 Commodore is more fuel efficient than a 3.5L V6 Magna, and it's not.
Yes it is! He said it is so it must be true! You moron!............:roll: lol