Gday all,

after an incedent involving my magna and my WIFE the need for a new BBAR cam about so
whilst the car was ALL OPEN i thought id add a CAI,

Like a lot of others in the AMC i thought id go the hose off the origanal intake,
im now running a 3inch pipe into the airbox, hidden in the airintake, down to the passanger side fog light hole,
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NOTE DONT USE THE STANDARD K&N FILTERS IN YOU SETUP LIKE THIS IT CREATES A MASSIVE FLAT SPOT

Now i have explained that and seen the falt for myself i have removed the Autobarn special and orderd a K&N Panel filter as i have now used the airbox in my design,

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COMMING SOON TO MY TE
* Pacemaker headers, Flexpipe and Sports Exaust
* Flowed TB, inprogress
* New ECU and CAMS,

Barrys kit may fix your flat spot. Worth a try check with him he may refund you if it does not work for you.

Regards

lovely fotography there :P

just curious, wouldnt alot of water and other crap get into the filter being down there???

oh n yeah, barry's fuel rail mod kit will fix the flatspot...think it only costs like $20? send barry a pm

What's wrong with the factory CAI?

I'd love to see dyno figures , with stock and mod'd cAI.

I'd love to see dyno figures , with stock and mod'd cAI.
The snorkle is a little restrictive as a result of design and location. When the guys tuned my car they said that fitting something better upfront was good for up to 4kW at peak. This wasn't based on a rule of thumb or best guess, they did power runs with it fitted and removed just out of interest. I also saw an 11HP difference between the paper and K&N panel filter.

lovely fotography there :P

just curious, wouldnt alot of water and other crap get into the filter being down there???

oh n yeah, barry's fuel rail mod kit will fix the flatspot...think it only costs like $20? send barry a pm

Yeah i know Me fail english thats UMPOSSABLE :bowrofl:

but hey im a lapzey typest,

anyhow, no i think it will be ok locating the airintake to there, so it will sight behind the foglight with a 45 degree bend upwards so id be supprissed to see a lot of water make it to the actual air-intake

WHATS the go with this fule rail kit
and how would it fix a Flatspot thats due to the MAF sensor having a issue with the dymanics of the airflow?

how are u going to put the front back on wit that massive air filter in the way

how are u going to put the front back on wit that massive air filter in the way


Ill tell you today once ive finished repainting it,
should be ok as im using the Fog light spot on the passanger side as the intake

ive also gone to a K&N panel filter for now untill i get a E-manage then ill go back to the POD side,

WHATS the go with this fule rail kit
and how would it fix a Flatspot thats due to the MAF sensor having a issue with the dymanics of the airflow?

The flat spot has a lot to do with the car basically running too lean becaues the panel filter flows too well at low rpm. The fuel rail kit preheats the fuel through heat conduction so it burns more efficiently. Ask Barry for details.

ive seen a few guys with low mounted air intake pipes, i would prolly be paranoid about the amount of water and crap that makes it into the pickup to begin with, sure its prolly not gonna make it all the way vertically into the airbox, but surely there will be a heap of garbage eventually knocking around in the inital intake pipe?

has anyone seen or done something like bonnet level intakes, the airbox is right there, or is there smarts in longer air intake pipes, rather than raming from external right into the airbox?

imho , the longer the air has to travel thru windy pipes would have a increased chance to be effeced by temperature transferance/etc.

not having much real car pratical on this, but my mate does, and he waffles on about all sorts of influencing factors, like harmonics and other stuff, and the air travel/vortex patterens and heat effects plus the velocity of the air to begin with, pushed in (Like these pipe configurations), or sucked in (like the stocko intakes), etc to the injector gear.

as i said, i dunno, but id would be nice to see some physics or data either way :)

The snorkle is a little restrictive as a result of design and location. ..

Doesn't the MAS and the ECU work all that out? .... the air going in is basically cool, just not enough off it?

and if more air flows past the sensors, won't that just pour more fuel thru the injectors?

interesting.. found this quote


The ECU detects the amount of air entering the engine, normally using the MAS. The ECU then computes the amount of fuel required to run the motor. When the ECU senses that there's too much air (and thus fuel) entering the motor, it considers the engine to be in danger. To remove this "dangerous" condition, the ECU momentarily turns off the fuel flow to the engine, thus shutting it down until the ECU believes the engine is safe again.

Fuel cut is the ECU's way of making sure that the engine doesn't make too much horsepower ;)

Typically, fuel cut will show up with upgraded engine components. As the upgraded exhaust, or whatever, allows the engine to generate more horsepower, more air flows into the engine, and the ECU shuts down the fuel to keep the engine "safe."


and from here: http://www.wermspowke.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

I would dispute what they say about the rubber bonnet seal, blocking the factory CAI.


Intake
From Magna FAQ

Engines develop their power by exploding an air/fuel mixture. The more air you can add into that equation the bigger the potential bang and the more power you can produce. Intake modifications provide ways to increase the amount of air reaching the cylinders.
[edit]
CAI - Cold Air Induction (Intake)

The principle behind CAI is that colder air is more dense which means it makes a bigger bang and you end up with more power. The 3rd generation Magna already has a cold air intake from the factory that draws air from the gap between the top of the radiator and the bonnet, but lets face it, while it's much better than drawing air straight from the hot engine bay, it's pretty average.

Also, the rubber bonnet seal that seals the entire width of the bonnet actaully makes this intake very ineffective.

The approach you take to an improved CAI setup depends largely on whether you go the pod or panel filter route and how brave you feel about doing things like relocating your MAF sensor.

Pics of my stock CAI, and how the bonnet rubber seal is curved in to allow the CAI to breathe.

One more, using a well known wax bottle to compare size of intake entrance.

Well ive got the CIA installed and the Bbar back in now, :)

the intake pipe's entrence is at the passanger foglight (not under it) as most CAI setups ive seen are,

Once ive installed some kind of mesh to where the fog lamp cover was i should have resonable protection against most nasties that can get in there,

that in mind the origanal airbox has provisions to pickup large particals of debrie from the induction system so i think she's all apples

with trial and error i should be able to have a pritty good idea of problems assosiated with the install at this level.

ill post pic's and power gain info after my headers and system go in.

Doesn't the MAS and the ECU work all that out? .... the air going in is basically cool, just not enough off it?

and if more air flows past the sensors, won't that just pour more fuel thru the injectors?

interesting.. found this quote
Basically. There could just be more of it. More air (denser air really because an engine care's about the mass of air, not the volume) requires more fuel which gives more bang. The factory snorkle does exactly what it needs to do for a production car but us tinkerers chase a little more which shows that the factory design, whilst not crap, could be better.

Having said that, I'm keeping mine until I find a better solution and the engine can actually handle a little more.

Thanks Redav. :cool:

I think you'd find that the major blockage to airflow with the 3rd gen inakes would actually be do to the reduced cross sectional area and increased surface area of the snorkels. I wouldn't be surprised if the x-section at the snorkel inlet was a fair bit smaller than the x-section at the inlet to the airbox. Then with the additional restriction to flow due to the added surface area, the snorkel would probably be the greatest flow restriction once a high-flow panel filter was added.

I'm always amused by people who put their CAI inlet close to the ground.
Probably a good idea for a dry winter's day but come summer it's an ideal spot to pick up the hot air coming off the road surface. :confused:

I think you'd find that the major blockage to airflow with the 3rd gen inakes would actually be do to the reduced cross sectional area and increased surface area of the snorkels. I wouldn't be surprised if the x-section at the snorkel inlet was a fair bit smaller than the x-section at the inlet to the airbox. Then with the additional restriction to flow due to the added surface area, the snorkel would probably be the greatest flow restriction once a high-flow panel filter was added.


You don't think MMAL worked all that out?

I'm always amused by people who put their CAI inlet close to the ground.
Probably a good idea for a dry winter's day but come summer it's an ideal spot to pick up the hot air coming off the road surface. :confused:

I've always thought the exact same thing, plus the fun of water.

I'm always amused by people who put their CAI inlet close to the ground.
Probably a good idea for a dry winter's day but come summer it's an ideal spot to pick up the hot air coming off the road surface. :confused:


Really, how could taking air from the Fog light recess, be any worse then haing an intake above
a hot radiator on a summers day? :nuts:

Has anyone done any test into airflow from CIA's and the stock air intake?

I'm always amused by people who put their CAI inlet close to the ground.
Probably a good idea for a dry winter's day but come summer it's an ideal spot to pick up the hot air coming off the road surface. :confused:

I'm amused by your post. I guess the K&N CAI kit is bull**** then, as is the RPW kit, the RRM kit, as are the kits from AEM, Injen and even the ICEMAN2 intake kits :bowrofl:

I'm amused by your post. I guess the K&N CAI kit is bull**** then, as is the RPW kit, the RRM kit, as are the kits from AEM, Injen and even the ICEMAN2 intake kits :bowrofl:


How so?

sarcasm mate

The theoretical benefits of CAI cannot be measured on a Dnyo.
The whole point to CAI is getting more cold RAM air.
I doubt the fans that are used to pass air through your radiator and intercoolers are capable of reproducing the car travelling at 110km/h plus.
Mitsubishi and all other manufactures design induction snorkels to get clean air to increase the service life of stock paper filters, Im sure most people who buy cars would rather a filter that lasts 2 years than a little faster acceleration at high revs. Because we can replace the filters with washable units which cost buggerall to service I don’t see the problem with using my 2$ bit of flexible pipe from the tipshop, some tape and a cabletie.
All the cars I’ve put CAI in have felt that in gear they rev quicker once you get up high in the rev range.

The whole point to CAI is getting more cold RAM air.
You'll find most road cars won't see any benifits from this.

[QUOTE=splatters]Yeah i know Me fail english thats UMPOSSABLE :bowrofl:

but hey im a lapzey typest,

anyhow, no i think it will be ok locating the airintake to there, so it will sight behind the foglight with a 45 degree bend upwards so id be supprissed to see a lot of water make it to the actual air-intake

WHATS the go with this fule rail kit
and how would it fix a Flatspot thats due to the MAF sensor having a issue with the dymanics of the airflow? QUOTE]

Hi splatters
The reason is due to the design of the Magna air-fuel management

Unlike many other systems that use a simple hot wire in the air-flow, the Magna uses a turbulence type, rather like the wake of a boat where the water is disturbed proportionally to it's velocity

This system is responsive, but is not designed to accept high Mass-air velocities, such as when using a hi-flow air filter or Pod, and the a/f ratio becomes lean

This usually causes the 'flat spot' in the 1500-2500RPM range

Some have used a RRFPR or adjustable FPR to enrich the air-fuel ratio, but it is expensive and could mean increased fuel consumption

Another way is to carefully raise the Temperature of the fuel where it takes on characteristics similar to a gas e.g. the vapour pressure of the Octane component of fuel rises exponentially with the Temp

The Fuel Rail Kit does this by using the engine heat already available, and changing the fuel rail mounts for a special alloy type

This effectively gives an improved air-fuel ratio, without the need to consume any more liquid fuel

Cheers, Barry

[QUOTE=splatters]Yeah i know Me fail english thats UMPOSSABLE :bowrofl:

but hey im a lapzey typest,

anyhow, no i think it will be ok locating the airintake to there, so it will sight behind the foglight with a 45 degree bend upwards so id be supprissed to see a lot of water make it to the actual air-intake

WHATS the go with this fule rail kit
and how would it fix a Flatspot thats due to the MAF sensor having a issue with the dymanics of the airflow? QUOTE]

Hi splatters
The reason is due to the design of the Magna air-fuel management

Unlike many other systems that use a simple hot wire in the air-flow, the Magna uses a turbulence type, rather like the wake of a boat where the water is disturbed proportionally to it's velocity

This system is responsive, but is not designed to accept high Mass-air velocities, such as when using a hi-flow air filter or Pod, and the a/f ratio becomes lean

This usually causes the 'flat spot' in the 1500-2500RPM range

Some have used a RRFPR or adjustable FPR to enrich the air-fuel ratio, but it is expensive and could mean increased fuel consumption

Another way is to carefully raise the Temperature of the fuel where it takes on characteristics similar to a gas e.g. the vapour pressure of the Octane component of fuel rises exponentially with the Temp

The Fuel Rail Kit does this by using the engine heat already available, and changing the fuel rail mounts for a special alloy type

This effectively gives an improved air-fuel ratio, without the need to consume any more liquid fuel

Cheers, Barry



Fair enough, thanks for that Barry