Hey,

Now first up, I don't want any lengthy posts about how $$ = Reliability
Actually, no posts of that sort would be great :D

This is a post/thread/whatever as I am aiming to find out how we can actually supercharge a magna, more specifically, my magna, for under $2k.

Ok, anyone with supercharger/engine experience, Jump In!

My rough as guts plan thus far...


Get S/H or Recond Eaton M90 or M62 roots blower, the 90's go on ebay for like 500 bucks
Make brackets to mount it somewhere and get a belt to reach.
Make adapter plates (not overly hard) for S/C inlet and outlet ports
Run outlet direct to TB (with BOV???)
Run inlet (is very convieniently oval) to MAF (also oval :D ) by tube/plate/something
Run maf to pod or stock box if so inclined


In my opinion, this should be acheivable for under $1500 even, and will give around 230kw... these blowers are practically falling from the sky due to their use in GM oem applications and unless someone states something disastrous that i dont know already this will work!

I'd probably run about 6 to 8 psi boost and am also planning some future research into a device to help the MAF identify swirling POD filter air properly and therefore measure fuel accordingly...

The main thing i suppose i want input on is will the M62 be big enough or do i HAVE to use the M90, the 62's are like half the price... thats all.

Lets get involved people!!! SUPERCHARGERS!!!! :D

If it works I'm interested. Good luck not wrecking your car. :badgrin:

PD Blowers are the bomb!

I just want to add that you really do need an aftermarket ECU. Timing needs to be retarded on boost, which if not, the motor will rattle itself to death pretty quickly.

I see no problem why it wouldn't be reliable though, 8-10psi is nothing specially considering the 3-3.5L motors are only 9:1 compression.

Hey,

Now first up, I don't want any lengthy posts about how $$ = Reliability
Actually, no posts of that sort would be great :D

This is a post/thread/whatever as I am aiming to find out how we can actually supercharge a magna, more specifically, my magna, for under $2k.

Ok, anyone with supercharger/engine experience, Jump In!

My rough as guts plan thus far...


Get S/H or Recond Eaton M90 or M62 roots blower, the 90's go on ebay for like 500 bucks
Make brackets to mount it somewhere and get a belt to reach.
Make adapter plates (not overly hard) for S/C inlet and outlet ports
Run outlet direct to TB (with BOV???)
Run inlet (is very convieniently oval) to MAF (also oval :D ) by tube/plate/something
Run maf to pod or stock box if so inclined



Looked at this, the M90 is a better proposition due to its availability, parts availability etc. I even mocked up a manifold - you are better to mount the outlet pointing towards the front of the car - firing into a small plenum and down the runners. You use the intake manifold mounting bolts to mount the blower onto 10mm aluminum plate.

Intake is easy, just mount the TB onto the intake of the SC - no BOV needed as they have a bypass valve installed already.

Mount against firewall basically, closest point is the seam join across the rear. The commodore M90's have a good long snout that is perfect for magna installations.

Calculating boost pressure vs. pulley size, fuelling and ingition is left as an exercise for the student. You can however allow for a top mount intercooler though - it will shorten the intake runners though.

Cheers
Heath Young

You'll need a computer of some sort aswell remember

Which ECU would be best for this application?

"Get S/H or Recond Eaton M90 or M62 roots blower, the 90's go on ebay for like 500 bucks"

The only M90 i can find on ebay is going to $2.2k :confused:

Which ECU would be best for this application?


Full replacement ones are the best, a plugin would do though, any really I'd be going haltech because of the range of tuners avaliable in brisbane and down the road lol

Which ECU would be best for this application?

I'm a dealer for Adaptronic, which are a awesome unit for the price. They have the features of a 2000+ Autronic/haltech, but I can supply them for 800 which includes MAP, Loom and ECU!

My view of it is that they are years ahead of microtech units, for the same price/cheaper!

You could easilly wire it in piggy back so that every standard feature was still controlled by the stock ECU, but ignition and fueling is done by the adaptronic. This way you still have perfect idle control, cruise control and stuff like that, but you get to completely rewrite maps.

Yeh i have read posts on this Piggyback of yours, sounds pretty gud for the price, it just lacks volume of people who are using it...

Anyway if there is a way of SuperCharging our 3rd gen magnas for less than 3K then i am putting mi hand in pocket and forking out the money to do it, and yes i would go this piggyback of TC's.

You can Hope to get it supercharged for under 3k, although i highley doubt it, by the time u find all the parts to supercharge then piggybacks, and everything else that goes along with it, if u are wanting to run more than 10psi you will be forking out a bit more than 3k thats for sure, although having said that i wish you the best of luck!!

Read the first post... Between 6 to 8 PSI....

Its not a piggyback ECU, its a complete stand alone unit.

By running it in piggyback mode, you simply disconnect the ignitors and injectors from the stock ECU and run the wires to the Adaptronic. The stock ECU doesn't know its not controlling the spark and fuel anymore, but still outputs the signals as if it was.

You then splice the TPS, CAS in to the adaptronic aswell as the OEM unit, and run a MAP sensor while retaining the stock MAF.

This keeps the stock ECU ticking away, the cruise control and idle control still working and the auto transmisson happy(if auto).

The adaptronic is more than capable of running the idle control and cruise control anyway, but the auto transmission part would be experimental but still possible.

Read the first post... Between 6 to 8 PSI....
Still needs a good amount of timing pulled from the ignition, or it will definatly just rattle its tits off and pop bearings.

The other alternative is to wing it fuel wise, and retard the static timing a heap. This is obviously no good for fuel econ but would get you out of trouble if you didn't want the car to be economical.

Its a manual, so the transmission part wont be a problem, the economy side of it will be, i still want the car to be driveable everyday and not just for weekend flogs at the race track using 30L/100km.... lol

Does it have cruise control and things like that? Where do you live? Andy Wyatt (designer) is always happy to do installs and tunes.

Yeh got cruise and all that... Im on the border of NSW and Vic, Albury/Wodonga.

Read the first post... Between 6 to 8 PSI....


even running 6-8psi you will be very lucky to actually get everything u need and installation for under 3k, and the original poster wants it for around 2k :nuts:

Even if you are getting 2nd hand parts it still burns a massive hole in the pocket, i thought i could get my Turbo conversion done for under 2k, but i thought wrong, its now past 3k and i still have more things to purchase!!

so once again good luck

Ok, if there was a complete list of parts needed with a price on them, and cost for labour if getting done professionally, i would be able to budget the whole thing, starting with cutting the cost of the parts and minimise the parts that need labour(as in diy). Then see what prices i can come up with.

Computer - quoted $800
SuperCharger - ????? thinking between $400-$900
Intake Plenum - ?????
InterCooler - ?????

And list needs to be continued as i do not know all parts needed for a SuperCharger conversion.

Ok, if there was a complete list of parts needed with a price on them, and cost for labour if getting done professionally, i would be able to budget the whole thing, starting with cutting the cost of the parts and minimise the parts that need labour(as in diy). Then see what prices i can come up with.

Computer - quoted $800
SuperCharger - ????? thinking between $400-$900
Intake Plenum - ?????
InterCooler - ?????

And list needs to be continued as i do not know all parts needed for a SuperCharger conversion.

You need to include belts, tuning, possibly additional injector (or water injection), intercooling is optional, boost gauge, vacuum hoses.

Intercooler I would go top mount, probably EX WRX, and run plenums before and after, then branch back to your runners.

Mounting the SC is an issue in itself, they need quite a bit of bracing, and sufficient belt lap around the pulleys (if you only have 1/4 of the pulley covered, start pushing it and the belts will slip, scream and snap - kinda sucks)

Seriously - have a look at the Autospeed articles on supercharging - get a subscription, its cheap, and the articles are pretty good. They go through step-by-step all of the ins and outs of supercharging.

It would be great if someone could convince CRS (castlemain Rod Shop) to develop a SC setup for our magnas like they have for the 3.8 commies... Have a good look at how they set theirs up, pretty interesting - a few ideas need some revisions (like the bypass valve - their design sucks) but in theory relatively sound.

http://www.rodshop.com.au/superchargers.htm

Cheers
Heath Young

At a rough guess,

SC - $800
ECU - $800
Tune - $300
Piping - $300
Brackets/mounting - $200
ECU Wiring - $200
Belts - $200
Modified crank pulley - $200

It does tend to add up unfortunatly, but done over time its a lot less painless. If you wire in the ECU and spend the the $300 on a WB02 instead of a tune it looks a little better.

I just finnished fitting a SC, intercooler and dalco ECU to a guys VN, it runs 10psi and is a machine!

www.turbocharade.com for pics and info, read the blog.

If you wire in the ECU and spend the the $300 on a WB02 instead of a tune it looks a little better.


Whats a WB02???

If you were to buy everything second hand and do all the work yourself then a cheap SC kit is possible, it would really come down to your skills and mechanical knowledge.

Also, there is another post about OBDII and the magna's, could serve you better then an aftermarket ecu if you can get it to work?

Then again you could pick up a second hand ecu as well.

WB02 = Wideband 02 sensor. For tuning the fuel maps on ECU's.

I have a zeitronix unit, great item but a little on the steep side compared to some now days.

All the plumbing is measured up and prewelded before going in the engine bay right? Well i can weld, i can measure, theres a saving on labour cost already. And all i would need to do to get the SC mounted tight is make up some adaptor plates...

I need to kno where i can shop to get the other bits and pieces.... anyone?

My mate solved the fuel usage problem on his commodore with what i think he said was a clutch operated pulley. It means you can turn the blower on and off is all. It was an Eaton M90 if i recall and i think the pulley came off an AC unit.

All the plumbing is measured up and prewelded before going in the engine bay right? Well i can weld, i can measure, theres a saving on labour cost already. And all i would need to do to get the SC mounted tight is make up some adaptor plates...

I need to kno where i can shop to get the other bits and pieces.... anyone?

Dont even bother with welded up piping unless you happen to have a welder. Just go down to a local performance shop and ask if they have any second hand bends from cars they have installed new IC's to. Then just join with radiator hose and hose clamps from any hose shop.

http://turbocharade.com/images/other-cars/VN-Supercharged/engine-w-ic/images/IMG_0012.jpg

If you look closely you can see the piping and hose joins comming off the bottom of the SC and then down in to the guard towards the IC. Yours would be much easier, straight in to the stock plenum.

Well the plumbing sounds an easy to do job then. And i wouldnt have to worry about turbo exhaust headers coz the SC runs off the belt, i might have to go a bigger exhaust though...

And Intercooler is optional i understand. Do boost controllers work with SC setups? If so would this get rid of fuel consumption problem?

This is starting to sound very inviting.... i wont invest into anything until i have worked out a final figure.

Something to add, i can use the stock Plenum???

Well the plumbing sounds an easy to do job then. And i wouldnt have to worry about turbo exhaust headers coz the SC runs off the belt, i might have to go a bigger exhaust though...

And Intercooler is optional i understand. Do boost controllers work with SC setups? If so would this get rid of fuel consumption problem?

This is starting to sound very inviting.... i wont invest into anything until i have worked out a final figure.

Something to add, i can use the stock Plenum???

Boost controllers do NOT work with supercharger setups (not in the conventional sense anyway).

Boost on a supercharger is controlled both by RPM at which it is spinning, and the degree that the *vacuum operated* bypass valve is open - the bypass valve simply bypasses the supercharger by feeding its output into its input.

To make a boost controller work, you would have to modify a 3 port vacuum solenoid, with a PWM boost controller and a vacuum resovoir. Makes my head hurt, although if you replaced the actuator with a boost/vac actuator (these do exist) then potentially as the boost increases, the actuator opens, and conversely, when you are in vacuum (closed throttle) the bypass opens (so as to not load down the engine).

Boost Vac actuators have a pressure hose at the top and a vac hose at the base, with a cylinder/diaphragm that sits between the two. Ie. vac sucks down, boost presses down.

Your fuel consumption issue will always be there due to parasitic losses of the supercharger unless you use an electronic clutch of some sorts. A decent AC clutch would work, but you would need to resize it somehow.

You could use the stock plenum IF you used one of those SC14's or something - to make an E90 work - would be rather difficult on stock plenum... I would be modifying it.

Cheers
Heath Young

Maybe a centrifugal blower might be an option.

Maybe a centrifugal blower might be an option.


What will this do?

Be more compact and easier to fit. Positive displacement blowers (roots, eaton etc) are generally big lump of units. The centrifugal jobbies are smaller but pack the same punch.

OK kool. So is it possible to use the stock Plenum or not? I need an answer from someone who has seen it done or has done it...

With Fuel consumption, how much of an increase are we talking?

Your fuel consumption when cruising will go up from 10L/100km to probably 11-12L/100.

M90's bolt straight to the buick intake, so you will have to adapt the std manifold to have an m90 blower bolt down to it.

A Centrifugal blower is basically a belt driven turbo, so you just need to direct the compressor housing air to the intake/throttle body. Have a look at the VN I did to see how easy it is with a centrifugal unit.

Yeh i seen it, the only thing i would have to worry about is keeping it mounted and stable in line with the belt...

Yeah but a good bracket should sort that out.

I dont know how you would make a M90 fit to the plenum thats all. PD blowers are generally better than centrifugal.

I'm with TC on this one - I think a cetrifugal blower would be a better option. Mounted in line with the belts at the front of the engine, and modify your stock plennum to have a T/B mounted on the opposite end (drivers side). Or alternatively, you could mount the SC compressor outlet so it's facing the front bar, run thru a Front Mount intercooler, and return the intercooled air into the passenger side of the engine bay - into the factory T/B. Locating of your Pod filter / Maf sensor would be the issue in this instance, although you could possibly locate it infront of the driver side wheel, down low.

This keeps sounding better and better.

i've been looking into using an eaton m90 on the 3.5L. I wanted to try n use what i had ont he car and the design i came up with was this. Dodgy Paint job lol

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/mattchoong/ChargerIdea2.jpg

Only problem with the centrifugal is that, like a turbo, the airflow rises as a square of their rotational speed. Although on a FWD this probably wouldn't be a bad thing as standing starts would be easier.

I agree with Heath on using a top mount intercooler. But I'd suggest using a water to air rather than an air to air. They absorb about 4 times as much heat and are much more capable at absorbing temperature spikes, as in stop-start driving. The other benefit is that they are a much more compact design with less air piping.

If he gets an adaptronic then the best thing would be to throw a basic water injection setup on there.

This is great, thanks for all the useful info guys, :drool: More more more... hehehe I will find some prices on a front mount cooler, similar to the wrx i spose, and look into the 90 SC and ways of mounting it. Do i have to use a POD filter in the setup?
is there anything rong with the intake im using? Just a K&N Panel with intake at the front bar?

Only problem is with Centrifugal s/c's, theres bugger all OEM ones so they arent cheap at all :(

This is great, thanks for all the useful info guys, :drool: More more more... hehehe I will find some prices on a front mount cooler, similar to the wrx i spose, and look into the 90 SC and ways of mounting it. Do i have to use a POD filter in the setup?
is there anything rong with the intake im using? Just a K&N Panel with intake at the front bar?

Beauty of a pod filter is you can stick it anywhere........ which will give you more flexibility in how you design the setup......

There's only so many places in the engine bay which are big enough to fit a panel filter box - so it's kinda limiting.

Good thing about decient ECU's is you can get rid of the MAF too ;) really free'ing up your intake system!

Well, there really is no reason why you cannot use your existing intake - even a standard intake would work (as the TB is only slightly moved).

Once again - you must mount the M90 square and secure onto the engine - they are bigger than you think (and heavier). The standard intake manifold could be modified to accept it (if it - the supercharger - were mounted at an angle) - you could mount a plate at an angle for the SC to bolt up to - would be dependet on bonnet closure as well. If you got clever, you could also keep the EGR (keeping it emissions compliant). The TB inlet would need to be blanked though.

Top mount intercooler like a WRX would look cool, but totally ruins the sleeper look :P

You could go a water to air... Similar design to the aborted RPW SC project.

Cheers
Heath Young

So if i was to use the M90, i would have to modify my bonnet to allow it to fit on the manifold?

I'm thinking i might use the other type of S/C, its smaller, it looks like a turbo, but the only problem is mounting it square to the belt...

So if i was to use the M90, i would have to modify my bonnet to allow it to fit on the manifold?

I'm thinking i might use the other type of S/C, its smaller, it looks like a turbo, but the only problem is mounting it square to the belt...

No, only if you mounted the M90 on an angle, using the original intake manifold as a base.

Centrifugal superchargers require external oil lines (the eatons, sc14's etc have a sealed oil supply).

A centrifugal supercharger will probably break your budget up front - you will not find them used very often (non-oem) and they are not linear in their boost/rpm output.

A very clever idea I saw was on the thomas knight supercharger page - modified alternator (with pulleys at BOTH ends) driving a centrifugal supercharger. Food for thought.

RIPP Mods also use a centrafugal supercharger - they run a shaft across the engine - what I REALLY don't like about their design is the treatment of the airflow meter - after the SC - bad, bad, bad idea. Totally messes up engine management, airflow meters are to measure airflow, they cannot cope with pressure. Did I mention it was a bad idea? Their 'hot air induction' idea sucks as well...

Cheers
Heath Young

So what would be the best way to mount the M90, without using a modified Plenum, and without needing to modify the bonnet? I do not have any experiance with S/C so i dont know the diff between M90 or any others, i have never seen them either.

I'm sure if i had one in hand i would find a way to mount it by having a look in the engine bay. But im sure u guys have the experiance to tell me straight off the best way to mount it.

I honestly think you wont be able to mount an M90 without a lot of fabrication work.

Hey all.. i've sourced a cheap sc14 and may be getting it soon.. Was just wondering if anyone had any ideas on where it can be mounted in the 3rd gen 3.5L engine bay. only area i can think of is where the washer bottle is.

I would have to agree. You need at the very least to relocate your PS pump if you don't want to do major fab work. For stealth, something like the SC14's is best. They have inlets/outlets on either side - BUT cannot be mounted in any position. an M90 can be mounted in any position (basically) as they run a total immersion lubrication system. SC14's use a sump system, and cents use a flowing oil system.

If you would like to save some money and a whole lot of headaches, get the accurate measurements from Eatons site (or from CAPA who sell these SC's new) and mock yourself one up out of plywood/mdf/polystyrene cardboard to get an idea of the physical size of the unit. Then try stuffing it places where you can run a belt to it in your engine bay.

Another consideration is noise - you use a nice cast plenum with a bit of volume to soak up the pulses created by a roots supercharger. They are noisy. A cent is far less noisy.

A mockup is a cheap yay or nay way of finding what will fit safely.

Cheers
Heath Young

Hey all.. i've sourced a cheap sc14 and may be getting it soon.. Was just wondering if anyone had any ideas on where it can be mounted in the 3rd gen 3.5L engine bay. only area i can think of is where the washer bottle is.

I have seen a clever idea where an SC14 has been mounted on solid mounts (ie. off the engine) and a belt has been run from the alternator (use a dual belt alt pulley) to the SC.

Make yourself up some mounts, with a spring tensioner, either on the belt or on the SC itself.

Run your pipes and robert is your proverbial relation. You do actually need a washer bottle to meet ADRs so get a small one and mount under the SC.

Other place you could get it into is between the engine and firewall. PS pump is an issue though.

Cheers
Heath Young

I have seen a clever idea...

*SNIP*

Cheers
Heath Young

ahh yeh.. hrm.. only thing i'm worried about is the clearance if i put it near the washer bottle. i don't think i'd be able to close the bonnet lol.. any pics of this said clever idea? also does it matter which way the pulley is being spun on the sc14?

It was done on a BMW IIRC, and it was using an SC14.

I meant relocate it (the washer bottle).

Cheers
Heath Young

Here is price list of Eatons....

What is the Pulley SuperCharger?

EA
M90 Supercharger
$ 2,789.00

EA
M62 Supercharger
$ 2,789.00

EA
M45 Supercharger
$ 2,789.00

EA
M90-M62-M45-with Drive Extension
$ 2,997.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 133.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 133.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 133.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 133.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 133.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 154.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 133.00

ED
Pulley Supercharger
$ 133.00

EA
By-pass Valve ***
$ 247.50

EA
2 Piece 62/45 Drive ***
$ 400.00

EA
Drive Tube ***
$ POA

EA 2 Piece 90 Drive *** $ 412.00

There is a used Eatons M90 for sale where i live for $650... good condition. Its from a shop in albury and apparently there is a few other S/C for sale there. Sound good?

The pulley is the pulley-snout assembly, used to increase/decrease boost by having larger or smaller pulleys - smaller pulley = greater rpm through gearing = higher boost.

$650 is good if they are in good working condition, spin freely, not too excessive shaft wobble (on snout - shows wear of bearings and couplings).

I would still be looking at a mockup myself before planking down the hard earned stuff...

Cheers
Heath Young

So who seems to think there is a reason we cant just get an m90, make up adpaters on either port to suit 65mm pipe, mount it up and put on a long belt, and bang, we got blower?

If you make up everything yourself (not like its hard), mounts, adapters, and use silcon hose and prefab pipe bends... (you dont need fancy chrome or mendrel to begin with, steam pipe is fine!!)
Use plate steel for the mounts...

I really am stumped to see the problem..

Wont the MAF sense the increased air flow and just add more fuel???

I dont get why you need intercooler either, you should be able to easily run 6 to 8 pound on 98oct. ULP...
EASILY!

And if you use a CAI to get air, it won't heat up that much in the blower...

Even if you add 800$ ECU complement, and 650$ for blower, use S/H plate steel, paint it, get your steam pipe cheap from i don't care where, find somewhere!
You would still cut under 2500$
I intend to do ALL labour myself, possibly factor a tune in and i still reckon you'd cut under 2500$.

Then theres the sneaky idea of converting to LPG thanks to howards lil incentive ATM and you can tune yourself and pass ADR's as gas is considered 100% compliant in any state of tune.
Hell even run your liquid lpg thru a liquid to air intercooler and chill your air charge to like -10 degrees, that'll add power.
Add to that LPG is a fair bit over 100 octane...

I agree CF charger would be much easier but the main idea is cheap money wise, and those things are dear as sin still...

Two questions but;

1) should you relocate the butterfly to before the SC or does it not really matter...
2) is there actually any reason the MAF can't compensate for the increased airflow?? If so how far can it compensate?? 3psi? 0psi?? no boost?? does anyone know its actual max flow specs??

Fueling might be fine with a MAF, but without an aftermarket ECU timing will be too advanced when on boost.

Wont the MAF sense the increased air flow and just add more fuel???

I dont get why you need intercooler either, you should be able to easily run 6 to 8 pound on 98oct. ULP...
EASILY!

And if you use a CAI to get air, it won't heat up that much in the blower...


The MAF has a maximum voltage(frequency or summin weird with the vortex sensors) output, you flow air beyond that and the ECU will not know the difference and you'll lean out badly and hole some pistons :P The trick is finding out how far the standard MAF will go before it peaks out.

As for charge air temperature, an average of about 10 degrees per PSI of boost for a screw type blower, so if your running 6/8 psi thats 60/80degrees, plus ambient, plus engine bay radiated heat, which in aus is going to comfortably tip 100degrees in summer, at that sort of temp it doesn't take much to tip your combustion over to pre detonation, which under boost has some interesting effects :redface:

Matthius

P.S: Silicon hose is also scary expensive for what it is :rant:

OK. Quick question.

Would this all work for a TR 2.6

OK. Quick question.

Would this all work for a TR 2.6

probably easier... alot more underbonnet room.

so from what i gather the M90 Eaton is the standard VT Calais supercharger.

I can pick one these up pretty cheap i reakon. May be worth a visit

so from what i gather the M90 Eaton is the standard VT Calais supercharger.

I can pick one these up pretty cheap i reakon. May be worth a visit

Bag that... The SC14 will require less crap to mount correctly and could easily flow enough boost to shove around a 2.6L astron with a fair few PSI. oh and most jap import wreckers can source them for about $350.

I would go the m90( the one off the ford mustage witth the outlet from the s/c come out on top) over the rear bank into a FMIC with a custom plenum( one like booya) with the inlet into it over the gearbox,

Actually LPG with a blower make more sense than EFI - its *far* easier to get it passed, you don't have to worry about MAF's etc if you ran it strictly GAS ONLY - mind you, stone age technology (lets face it, LPG is no better than a carby). You will need to design it suck through (obviously, the gas venturi wont work on boost)

Suck through will (in theory) work intercooled with gas - it won't work with petrol (the mixture falls out of suspension and pools at the base of the intercooler) - mind you, a backfire with an intercooler full of fuel/air will be catastrophic! Think explosion to remove the tanks of the intercooler - at least! :nuts:

I wouldn't even consider intercooling with any suck through design. Water injection ONLY!

I would put the TB before the intake to the blower, then on trailing throttle (or idle) you are basically cavitating the rotors in a (near) vacuum, not still air - generates less heat, uses less fuel.

An externally venting BOV on a supercharged gas engine is suicide. Don't even think about it!

The Mustang supercharger isn't a bad idea, means that you could mount anywhere you can get a belt, someone has already come up with a casting etc.

Cheers
Heath Young

Gas venturi would work on boost Heath, that is how blow through carbi's work still.

Suck through would be the best bet still though so it could really blend in.

just done some measurement and to mount the blower over the rear blank you would need a bonnet bulge

can we squeeze the m90 between the stock plenum and the firewall??

Mount it sideways and all...

These sc14's or whatever sound interesting, i might look more into them...

AAAH the SC14, i remember those.
My mate has one on his VN, i beleive CRS was selling them as a kit, they run like 3-5psi or something max...
Unless you overspin them...
At which point they make shizzit loads of heat...

I dont think i would personally use one, im aiming at 210ish rwkw and that blower is too small.

I dont think i would personally use one, im aiming at 210ish rwkw and that blower is too small.
In a magna? Not gonna happen :P.

In a magna? Not gonna happen :P.

Gotta get a rear diff first :D

Gotta get a rear diff first :D
hehe zactly.

my plans were based on this.

obvisouly without the water to air intercooler

Got a quote from a jap wrecker/importer for an SC14.... $375

i got dimensions too... the bloke said they would put out about 7 to 9 psi on a 3ltr magna... is this possible???

Dims are -

Inlet - 58mm ID
outlet - 50mm ID
Front of pulley to rear of housing - 310mm
Front of pulley to rear of outlet - 380mm
Top Mount ID 72mm OD 115mm
Bottom mount ID 90mm OD 133mm
Top mount to bottom mount - OD 260mm
inlet OD to outlet OD 270mm

nice set up but wont work because you have master cylinder and booster in the way where the pulley would need to go.

Got a quote from a jap wrecker/importer for an SC14.... $375

i got dimensions too... the bloke said they would put out about 7 to 9 psi on a 3ltr magna... is this possible???

Dims are -

Inlet - 58mm ID
outlet - 50mm ID
Front of pulley to rear of housing - 310mm
Front of pulley to rear of outlet - 380mm
Top Mount ID 72mm OD 115mm
Bottom mount ID 90mm OD 133mm
Top mount to bottom mount - OD 260mm
inlet OD to outlet OD 270mm

They are originaly off a 2L 1GG toyota engine. And the SC14 could shove 10 - 12 pound at 8000Rpm through that motor before the blower became reliably unreliable.

Might I add guys that this threat REALLY ANNOYS ME!

Ive been researching puting a SC14 on my car for 3 months now, gathering knowledge, seeign what others have done and generaly being a car nerd so i dont blow my frigging motor up and then along comes this thread where it seems that now every one of you idea theiving jerkwads is going to strap a blower to your magna and my hard work is no longer going to be the original piece of kit it was 3 months ago. BUNK!! BUNK I SAY!!!!

Ill just take some solace in the fact that as per usual most of you will be blowhards :D

nice set up but wont work because you have master cylinder and booster in the way where the pulley would need to go.

WRONG!!!!!!

atleast on a 2nd gen :D

i cant comment on a 2nd gen as i do not have on but it is the case on a 3rd gen.

(lets face it, LPG is no better than a carby). You will need to design it suck through (obviously, the gas venturi wont work on boost)

Cheers
Heath Young

All you have to do to run a LPG car blow through is buy yourself an IMPCO have a return pipe from the boost side of the supercharger/turbocharger going back to the mixer to go on the opposite side of the diaphragm to equalise the pressure in the mixer, then your carby venturi works like normal in an n/a vehicle because the mixer/carby doesn't actually see any boost.

Also blown LPG cars are great in the sense that when the LPG is introduced it acts as it's own intercooler nullifying the requirement for one(although it'd still be beneficial) As it is icy cold when it enters the intake tract.

Matthius

They are originaly off a 2L 1GG toyota engine. And the SC14 could shove 10 - 12 pound at 8000Rpm through that motor before the blower became reliably unreliable.

Might I add guys that this threat REALLY ANNOYS ME!

Ive been researching puting a SC14 on my car for 3 months now, gathering knowledge, seeign what others have done and generaly being a car nerd so i dont blow my frigging motor up and then along comes this thread where it seems that now every one of you idea theiving jerkwads is going to strap a blower to your magna and my hard work is no longer going to be the original piece of kit it was 3 months ago. BUNK!! BUNK I SAY!!!!

Ill just take some solace in the fact that as per usual most of you will be blowhards :D

Errr.... OK. I take it that this is a facetious reply?

Familiar with the saying two heads are better than one?

Mind you, a camel is a horse designed by a committe as well.

Unless you are looking to sell a kit, in which case, more power to you, you might benefit from this. For someone who is researching this stuff, to have it put into a single magna-relavent thread, is hardly cause for annoyance methinks...

Note that at 10-12 PSI the teflon peels off the blower rotors.

Cheers
Heath Young

After what i saw on the news last night about LPG cars blowing up, i aint converting!!! lol

I think the SC14 is the blower to go with, its heaps cheaper than the M90 and i cant see y it wont put out wat boost i want out of it.... 6-9 psi.
I looks like it will be heaps easier to mount to!!!

Errr.... OK. I take it that this is a facetious reply?

Familiar with the saying two heads are better than one?

Mind you, a camel is a horse designed by a committe as well.

Unless you are looking to sell a kit, in which case, more power to you, you might benefit from this. For someone who is researching this stuff, to have it put into a single magna-relavent thread, is hardly cause for annoyance methinks...

Note that at 10-12 PSI the teflon peels off the blower rotors.

Cheers
Heath Young

Im famous for being a "gunna", im gunna do this, im gunna do that. Christ ive had my 2nd gen for over 2 years now and it finaly gets extractors and a zorst TOMORROW. :D

I didnt want to talk up my plans and then turns out i CBF.
I didnt want a thread that would loose its point abd become a waste of time.
There hasnt been much said in this thread i didnt know.

AAAAAND I kinda wanted to put it all together on the down low then go on a cruise and go "oh yeah, anyone wanna see my supercharger?" :redface:

Oh stuff you all ill share :P


The SC14 is a hardy little bastard, it shoves VL's around at 8psi it can DEFINITELY do a magna. Its also the best unit for the job because it has an electromagnetic clutch and a bypass so boost doesnt build too much. the SC14 is also a relatively well sized unit so it can be mounted in a few locations. not to mention the lack of a plenum or manifold needing to be made. Its all basic pipework from what im told.

you WILL need an intercooler, stop whining about it and contemplating lpg as a cooling agent. your asking to BLOW YOURSELF UP. anything is better than nothing, but on a 2nd gen 3L im not taking any chances with my 10:1 comp ratio.

With that comp ratio im looking at prices for thicker copper head gaskets or a straight up custom made set of decompression plates to drop it to between 9:1 and 9.5:1.

On the 6g72 SOHC the easiest way i see to mount it is from a custom made (and aluminium might i add) crank pulley with a removable end pulley for the SC (allowing me to EASILY change boost levels in the future) run up the side of the motor and then driving a shaft across the motor with the blower sitting where the airbox currently sits.But once i actualy get the blower i might find its easier to drive off the aircond or somewhere else, current plan is from the crank however.

as for the stock AFM and ecu, nobody knows. It might handle 4psi it might not. Im only aiming for an initial boost of 4psi as a proof of concept, then get a ecu upgrade and make the whole setup more reliable THEN wind on the boost. If it turns out i cant do it without a piggyback, ill just remove the belt and start saving. the injectors might be up to a low boost task, but personaly a FPR is going in before i even think about running it as a basic safety measure.

As for people worried about overbost

the SC14 has a bypass so the pressure cant build, as an added safety feature im goign to rig the electromagnetic clutch switch to the throttle body (somehow) so when i take my foot off the gas the SC stops packing air in. basicly... at idle, the car is natmo. and an additional 3 position switch in the cabin. always off, Throttle switch selector, and THIS MOTHER F***ER IS CRAZY!!! A friend also suggested finding a way to lock the bypass off remotely and fit a BOV before the TB so i can launch harder at the drags. like a crude extra hit of boost off the line.

well now you all know... im gonna go cry in a corner.

I was gonna do that anyways but now i have a reason...

:cry:





:P enjoy, the person who does it before me has to help with mine!

Thanks for that long bit of info, i will find it useful

have a look in the engine bay of a 2.4l, the amount of room is stupid and the runners are long as, so many places to mount a supercharger :badgrin: 2.4l ftw !!!!!!!!!!

Did some measurements today ands some research on the net, was looking at the m90 s/c and in my search came across the m112 s/c. The m112 s/c is sold for around $1200 and is said to flow 550hp which sounds like a better match for our motors even though they state it is suited for 4.6l to 6l motors. The m90 would be really good for low to mid range power but will lake in the top end where the m112 would have good bottom end and a heap of mid to top end power. From what everyone has said they only want to run 7psi max so an m90 would only be good for 155kw-170kw at the wheels where the m112 would be good for 190kw-200kw at the wheels.

Did some measurements today ands some researchon the net, was looking at the m90 s/c and in my search came across the m112 s/c. The m112 s/c is sold for around $1200 and is said to flow 550hp which sounds like a better match for our motors even though they state it is suited for 4.6l to 6l motors. The m90 would be really good for low to mid range power but will lake in the top end where the m112 would have good bottom end and a heap of mid to top end power. From what everyone has said they only 7psi max so an m90 would only be good for 155kw-170kw at the wheels where the m112 would be good for 190kw-200kw at the wheels.



And where do you suppose you will mount the S/C? Are you going to do some major work?

The s/c would need to be mounted over the rear bank also it would depend on which one you got whether you mounted it normally or upside down, so you would need a custom box section on the base of the s/c for the air to exit to run to the intercooler then you would need a custom plenum aswell, if your good with a welder you should be able to get away with it for $4000-$4500 and if you need someone to make if for you account for $5000-$5500, you will also need a bonnet bulge as the s/c will sit about 20-25mm above bonnet hight, wonder what a new XR8 bonnet bulge would look like on a magna. Also if you go the m90 path take about a $ 1000 off.

Talked to C.A.P.A. today.
They agreed SC14 too small...
I mean the magna engine is like twice the size of the original engine they come off...
I seen a 3.8L holden with one, like i said before... Not impressive at all...

Oh and haha about the rwkw thing :redface:
hehe.
oh well, you knew what i meant... :D

My Magna is a 3Lt, would that make any difference?

The sc14 S/C is mainly bolted on to vn-vr that only have from 125kw vn to 132kw vr, our 3l magnas came out with 140kw and the th 3.5l had 150kw and the power figure only goes up from there, with the sc14 s/c you would be lucky to make 130kwatw, but if you got the 2.4l magna it's a good option then.

My Magna is a 3Lt, would that make any difference?
As long as you have a second gen. Its fine as long as you arent chasing big numbers or more than 8psi. the magna may be a 3L where the 1gg was a 2L, but the 1gg was a DOHC 16 valve 4cyl not a SOHC 12 valve v6.

Its also a matter of airflow. Block the outlet of the SC and turn it, you will get 25PSI. Let it flow with no restriction - you get bugger-all.

The more RPM you have to throw into it to get enough airflow to produce boost is dependent on the engine size/airflow. An SC14 is too small for a 3.5 let alone a 3.8.

BTW - The 14 in SC14 is how much air it flows per revolution - 1.4 Litres.

Cheers
Heath Young

So does anyone know how much boost psi the sc14 will put into a 3lt 3rd gen?

The SC14 is too small. Get over it people.

If you're going to do anything copy what parts sprintex used.

Its also a matter of airflow. Block the outlet of the SC and turn it, you will get 25PSI. Let it flow with no restriction - you get bugger-all.

The more RPM you have to throw into it to get enough airflow to produce boost is dependent on the engine size/airflow. An SC14 is too small for a 3.5 let alone a 3.8.

BTW - The 14 in SC14 is how much air it flows per revolution - 1.4 Litres.

Cheers
Heath Young


I just went on sprintex and used the blower calculator, if this is correct - SC14 = 1.4 L per rev, i dont see how it is too small compared to the M90 - which according to Sprintex puts out 1.5 L per rev!!!!

So can someone plz clear this up for me???

So does anyone know how much boost psi the sc14 will put into a 3lt 3rd gen?
it would depend what RPM your at i would guess

you have been told it puts 1.4L of air per rev so then i guess it depends on how many revoloutions it does - how many the motor does. so if you knew the pully size of the motor and on the s/c it couldn't be to hard to work out.

1 question just say the the revolutions were the same as motor to sc (i would asumer the pullies are not the same size so the reveloutions are not the same) then at 1000rpm the a 3.5L motor needs 3500L/min and if the SC is only making 1400L/min wouldn't this make the motor stall? if this is right then you would nead like atleast 2 tuns of the SC pully for every motor pully turn.

Thats why i dont understand why the SC14 would be too small....

Thats why i dont understand why the SC14 would be too small....

how big is the pully on it and how big is the one on the motor

Its also a matter of airflow. Block the outlet of the SC and turn it, you will get 25PSI. Let it flow with no restriction - you get bugger-all.

The more RPM you have to throw into it to get enough airflow to produce boost is dependent on the engine size/airflow. An SC14 is too small for a 3.5 let alone a 3.8.

BTW - The 14 in SC14 is how much air it flows per revolution - 1.4 Litres.

Cheers
Heath Young


I have been told that the SC14 is too small for the magna, yet th M90 is big enough...

But the SC is .1 of a litre smaller in output!!!



how big is the pully on it and how big is the one on the motor
__________________
Pete
over and out




You can change the pully's on the charger cant u, so it doesnt matter.... If it isnt getting enough rpms then juss change the pulley size...

3L mitusbishi magna running at 100% volumetric effiency (i.e its pulling in air at ampient pressure and filling the cyl right up) at 6000rpm uses 318 cubic feet of air or 9005 Litres a minute.

The toyota SC14 can take a maximum of 10,000rpm then you start to endager the life of the teflon coated rotors and i didnt even need a calculator to figure out that spinning its nut off at 10k rpm, it will make 14,000 Litres of moved air a minute.

Now It can generate more air than the magna motor needs. It CAN make pressure, the question is how much pressure is that?

3L mitusbishi magna running at 100% volumetric effiency (i.e its pulling in air at ampient pressure and filling the cyl right up) at 6000rpm uses 318 cubic feet of air or 9005 Litres a minute.


Doesn't a 3L magna use 3000L/min at 1000rpm so at 6000rmp wouldn't it be 3000L*6= which is 18000L/min

so even af full speed its not enough for the 3L magna? this is where if it can be used on a VN i am lost

http://www.racesystems.com/

i used a CFM used calculator from the above website.

Doesn't a 3L magna use 3000L/min at 1000rpm so at 6000rmp wouldn't it be 3000L*6= which is 18000L/min

so even af full speed its not enough for the 3L magna? this is where if it can be used on a VN i am lost

Something is wrong with those calulations, can you imagine how much air its pulling in? At 6000rpm it would be sucking 300l per second. Thats a huge amount of air (3 cubic meters), we would all be stuck to the inlet. An F1 car at 18000rpm or so conumes around 650l per second.

Something is wrong with those calulations, can you imagine how much air its pulling in? At 6000rpm it would be sucking 300l per second. Thats a huge amount of air (3 cubic meters), we would all be stuck to the inlet. An F1 car at 18000rpm or so conumes around 650l per second.

well go back to one rev is say 3L of air so 2 revs is 6L, so 1000 reveloutions is 3000L, so 6000 reveloutions is 18000L/min, it could be wrong, but i can't see what is wrong

http://www.hoptechno.com/nightcrew/sante7000/convert.cfm

I used that site and the cfm calculator to get my values, bear in mind also my calculations were based on a best case of 100%ve which isnt common.

at 70%ve its only 6286.34 l per minute.

I could be wrong...but these are 4-strokes right...suck-squeeze-bang-fart

So only on every second revolution does a cylinder consume air? While one is 'sucking', the other is 'banging'.

Menage a Trois innuendos aside....therefore on every revolution, 1.5L of air is pulled in for a 3L, assuming that its 100% efficient?

1.5L per revolution....@6000RPM its 9000L/min.

70% of that is...wait for it...6300L/min

Yes, correct thats 105L/min. 105L is roughly 1m*1m*10.5cm. Thats not that much at all when you look at it.

I can do math me!

that would explain why its 9000L not 18000L yes.

so the sc14 is a good sized supercharger for the 2.4L correct ( as in did capa say that? )

The SC14 is too small. Get over it people.

If you're going to do anything copy what parts sprintex used.


if you copied the sprintex one it wouldnt be under 2k.... you are a twat...

i think you all are all going to indepth into it all, start to look at the power figures that the s/c produces the m112 is rated at 550hp, the m90 is rated 440hp and the m62 is rated at 300hp. So i'm taking a wild ballpark guess that the sc14 s/c would be rated around the 400hp mark. So look at the power figures an work out what you want from your car then get the right s/c for you.

that would explain why its 9000L not 18000L yes.


ah i new there was something wrong, i was working with a 2 stroke not a 4 stroke. i knew what i worked out was corect but just needed to /2. as its not sucking air every stroke.

i think you all are all going to indepth into it all, start to look at the power figures that the s/c produces the m112 is rated at 550hp, the m90 is rated 440hp and the m62 is rated at 300hp. So i'm taking a wild ballpark guess that the sc14 s/c would be rated around the 400hp mark. So look at the power figures an work out what you want from your car then get the right s/c for you.

And the creator of the thread said "On a budget" and the SC14 is the cheapest in terms of purchase and fabrication costs.

Im in the process of determining mathematicaly how many pound you can strangle from one.

Looks to be in the ballpark of 9.7psi on a 3L topping out at 6000rpm.

someone please do this so i can copy hahah, ps... dnt waste your time with the smaller charger, you will only want to upgrade.

someone please do this so i can copy hahah, ps... dnt waste your time with the smaller charger, you will only want to upgrade.

Yes but upgrading SC for more boost means you have to upgrade engine internals.... we r tryin to save money for a bigger bang - 7psi boost is plenty for the money we are talking here...